Op2,

>>I have problems with Dr Thiering's work. The fact that her theories have had little support from historians, peers, or anyone for that matter is of concern.<<

It should not be of so much concern if you were being strictly objective about her research. The fact that few historians have gone on record as supporting her is irrelevant if she is right.

The Wikipedia article on Dr Thiering used to be much more even-handed, but I guess it has been got at in the way that any controversial Wikipedia site is prone to. Which is why nobody can rely on Wikipedia as a serious authority any more.

>>http://thiering.net/ (Is Webmaster Richard T a Thiering?)<<
I used to wonder that when this was the only site on the web publishing her ideas. When Dr Thiering's own site was created I no longer used this one, and it seems not to have been developed any further since then.

>>http://www.christian-apologetics.org/html/thiering.htm<<

This tirade from a "Christian Apologetics" site, suggests that Mr Cargill should be more apologetic to Dr Thiering. He would prefer to believe that the Jesus who walked and talked three days after his crucifixion was actually dead, and therefore everything Dr Thiering says must be wrong.

I dealt with Dr Forbes' article above. I think Dr Thiering has adequately rebutted all his criticisms.

>>http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_thiering__riddle.htm<<
This review of the American edition of "Jesus The Man" is by Robert M. Price, Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary. I would expect him to be about as objective as Justin Cargill, but surprisingly he is far more sympathetic. However, he still falls back on the same argument that she must be wrong because he thinks "it seems arbitrary to assume that any New Testament writers viewed themselves as writing scripture." He should check out chapters 4 and 6 of Revelation which records them doing just that.

You cannot dismiss a person's ideas simply because they are not accepted by those with a vested interest in their rejection, nor because you do not understand how they work. Time will tell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wegener

Daviy wrote:

>>None of these questions can be answered.<<

Why bother asking them then?

Sympneology

>>None of these questions can be answered.<<

Why bother asking them then?

Because you are presenting as fact answers to questions when you do not know what the questions are. Pesher is totally meaningless to this debate.

Daviy,

>>Because you are presenting as fact answers to questions when you do not know what the questions are.<<

I am not quite sure what that means, but let us look at some of your "unanswerable" questions:

1. Where did the Dead Sea Scrolls come from?

They were found in caves near the Dead Sea in 1947. They are believed to have been placed there for safe-keeping in anticipation of the Roman reaction to the first Jewish revolt (66-70 CE) because the jars were dated as from the first century CE. Some scholars maintain that they were from the Temple in Jerusalem, while others, including Thiering claim that they were from the community occupying the buildings in Wadi Qumran. Whether this community was a sect of Essenes or Sadducees or some other sect is still in dispute. Thiering bases her ascription to the Essenes based on the correspondence between the rituals described in the scrolls and those described by Josephus as belonging to the Essenes.

2. What was their heritage?

The scrolls themselves declare their heritage. They are copies of Old Testament books like Isaiah, Psalms, and Habakkuk, with commentaries by learned scholars relating the verses to current events. They also contain the rules and rituals by which the community lived. This much is not in dispute.

3. Where is the anchor that places them into the society of the time?

There are differences between authorities as to when they were written, but all acknowledege that they must have been written before 70 CE and many agree with Thiering that references to the Romans date the Pesharim documents to the common era.

4. Did they originate from a weirdo sect?

That depends upon what you define as "wierdo".

(continued ...)

(continued ...)

5. Do they tell the truth or are they fiction?

This is the crucial question applying to all ancient documents. Deliberate fiction writing a la Barbara Cartland is a comparatively modern invention. It is assumed that when ancient texts were committed to stone, papyrus, leather or copper, the writers believed that what they wrote contained the truth. The writers of the DSS pesharim believed that ancient documents contained hidden messages relating to their own times, which could be interpreted by the pesher. That would have been a mistaken belief, but the commentaries would have contained factual descriptions of current events.

The relevance to this debate is that, although the tales of miracles and the supernatural in the New Testament are obviously fiction, the motive of the writers may actually have been to tell the truth, albeit in a way that would not endanger their lives or those of their readers.

Sympneology wrote:

Deliberate fiction writing a la Barbara Cartland is a comparatively modern invention.

Dear Sympneology:

An example of early fiction writing was The Republic by Plato written about 370BC. His Utopia corresponds to contemporary science fiction.

Another Utopian literary piece was De Re Publica by Marcus Tullius Cicero written about 52BC.

I doubt that the imaginative fiction of the classical world was confined to Utopian literature.

Chinese fiction goes back a long way.

FOUR MASTERPIECE NOVELS: The novel as a literary genre germinated in the Wei, Jin and the Northern and Southern Dynasties (220-589 AD). It bloomed during the Ming (1368-1644 AD) and Qing Dynasties (1644-1912 AD). Four novels are commonly recognized as the greatest in classical Chinese fiction.

-- THE ROMANCE OF THE THREE KINGDOMS: The narrative turns history into epic and has educated and entertained readers with unforgettable examples of martial and civic virtue, personal fidelity and political treachery.

Its author, Luo Guanzhong (1330-1400 AD), portrays a fateful moment at the end of the Han Dynasty (206 BC- 220 AD).

-- TALE OF WATER MARGIN: Also known as Outlaws of the Marsh. This great novel by Shi Nai'an (1296-1371 AD) was set against a fading Song Dynasty plagued with corruption and bogged down in political and social turmoil. To transform society and make it more equitable, 108 heroes joined together in Liang Shan, east Shandong Province, to oppose the government and spread justice.

-- JOURNEY TO THE WEST: A combination of parable and comedy, the story tells of a Buddhist monk and several animals with human characteristics who traveled west to India in search of Buddhist scriptures. The animals are celestial beings in mortal form, and they have magical powers that protect them from goblins and evil spirits.

The author, Wu Cheng'en (1500-1582 AD), created an imaginary world that gives readers a glance of the different sides of human nature.

-- DREAM OF RED MANSIONS: Also called Dream of the Red Chamber, by Cao Xueqin (1715-1763 AD). It is basically a tragic love story between a boy named Jia Baoyu and a girl, Lin Daiyu.