Hi all
I have absolutely nothing against people - anyone - making a decent living, but as I have said before - and it's a point that Yabby keeps running away from - other businesses in this country have to be competitive in their environments without handouts and within certain constraints of moral decency. That excludes live export farmers immediately.
Yabby, have you read the Hassall and Associates report from which you quote the 13,000 jobs? Are you aware that the ex-chair of LiveCorp, Peter Frawley, is still a director of H&A? Therefore their impartiality - not to mention credibility - are in immediate question.The last report they did was creative and this one merely builds upon that.Last time it was found that the 9,000 jobs figure was in fact closer to 3,000, since most of the jobs referred to would continue to exist without the export factor. The new report claims that the "live export industry supports (amongst other similarly outlandish claims) the insurance and banking industries". For God's sake!
PF, I absolutely agree with you about cruelty here, and I monitor a saleyard not far from where I live every week, filming breaches of CoPs and often blatant cruelty. Like you, I have difficulty in getting the RSPCA to act. The police also have powers under animal welfare legislation, as do officers from the department/s of agriculture in each state, I think you'll find.
Some of the transports I have seen have been atrocious, and animals can be left without food or water in saleyards until someone bothers to pick them up. The justice system is a joke when it comes to farm animals.
That's it for now...
Nicky.

I’m not running away from any point Nicky, but I don’t agree with your moral
decency comment, that is simply your opinion. Fact is that I think that sheep
going on a boat are far better off then those put on a truck and carted across
Australia. To me a floating feedlot is not an issue, if conditions are such that
animals have food, water, shelter etc, better then most feedlots anywhere in
the world.

I don’t have a problem with the Hassal report. I don’t care who wrote it,
main thing is the figures. If you claim they are flawed, show where they
are flawed. If a farmer sells 1000 wethers and receives 60K in his account
rather then 15K, don’t you think that even his bank and community will
benefit?

Hassal shows that a live sheep is worth something like 74$ to Australia,
which is far more then a carcass. The problem is, meat processors are
intent on sending each other broke, so outdiscount one another downwards
in price, to steal each others markets. That doesen’t happen in the live trade.
The big losers with all that discounting are in fact the farmers, who ultimately
pay.

Points from the piggy thread: No waving of AQIS fees, sorry. AQIS
charge for services rendered, by the hour. The Govt dropped its charges
for all clients by 40% some years ago. A live sheep does not need an
AQIS vet opening up the carcass, to check for ovis etc.

Yes, economies of scale is what I meant to say, you are correct.

State Govts contribute nothing. Payroll tax is paid by companies with
more then a certain labour bill. State Govts are free to wipe the tax
on exporters, but they don’t. State Govts have fees and charges on
all sorts of other things.

If costs are so high in WA that farmers can’t make a living, what they
really should do is buy their own boats and ship the whole lot to
Indonesia for processing, its closer then Sydney or Melbourne.

Hi Yabby

Extract from The West April 17 2004 (direct quote):-
"In August 2001, the Federal Government made a contribution to the live animal export program equivalent to 40 per cent of Australian Quarantine Inspection Service fees for live animal exports," the report says.
"The net effect has been to reduce charges to the live export sector by about 40 per cent while maintaining AQIS policy that fees be set on a 100 per cent cost recovery basis. Since the introduction of this subsidy, it is estimated that inspection charges for all animal live exports from WA have been subsidised by an annual amount of $400,000.
"By contrast, the larger abattoirs in WA each pay more than $400,000 per annum for AQIS meat inspection services."
That seems like a very neat little bit of cross-subsidisation"
__________________________________

This was about the findings of the Lindner Report, which contained some similar findings to the Heilbron/Larkins Report.

Professor Lindner and Drs Heilbron and Larkins have substantially less conflict of interest and are leading agricultural economists, My money is on their findings rather than those of Frawley and Co. who have their own obvious reasons for their creative accounting. I explained earlier why they are claptrap but you clearly don't want to know. Lindner, Heilbron and Larkins also looked at lost GDP, lost household income and the fragmentation of rural and regional communities where meat processing was the only, or the major empoyer.

Floating feedlots? Shelter? Have you seen the "Al Shuwaikh", the "Al Kuwait", "Maysora", and those other "open decked" monstrosities on which the sea spray and the dust from the cheap feed pellets (the industry itself explained away excessive mortalities on 4 voyages earlier in the year on poor quality feed) blind the sheep? They are crammed in so that many cannot get to feed and water (hence some of the "inanition" - gotta love the euphemism) ...

Yabby, be less quick to accuse me of partiality until you have read ALL the reports - including mortality reports - at www.liveexportshame.com. all conveniently at the one site.
Nite nite
Nicky

Nicky, in 2001 I was actually a customer of AQIS, so received detailed
reports about how they calculated their charges. My comments are based
on that information, not on newspaper reports. You are free to ring AQIS
and ask them. One of the problems that AQIS has is headoffice costs, for
many costs are political, ie EU trade barriers etc, not economic. It seems
to me that the Govt decided to wear the political costs and pass on the
direct economic costs of services provided. Fair enough.

So nope, there is no cross subsidisation, simply fees for services provided.

I clearly do want to know any accurate information, just not invalid
claims. Point out the faults in the data and I will listen. Just this August,
live shippers bought a very limited amount of pregnancy tested ewes in
my very community, for 50$ a head. Meantime buyers of a major
processor were buying the same ewes, not pregnancy tested, for 15-16$
a head. They both knew we had to sell, due to no rain. If you had a family
to feed, who would you sell to?

If there are live ships not up to standard, fine, scrap them. T he point
is there are also ships that are pretty good, like the Becrux. Lots of
major upgrades are happening right now, to bring ships up to standard.
That’s all good news! Far better then any truck and far better then most
feedlots.

Space per sheep was decided by qualified vets. Do you know more
about sheep welfare then qualified vets?

Every other industry in Australia, when local costs become uncompetitive,
moves offshore. Note that even the bolts holding you Aussie car together,
could well be Chinese soon. The bank you bank with, is using Indian
call centres etc. Now you want to crucify farmers, because we want to
move our processing offshore? Ship the lot to Indonesia I say, if
the State Govt does not give figjam about our industry or our welfare.

As you point out, we are in business, we need to make business decisions.

Hey Yabby
Decent ships ... there is the "Becrux" and ?? Can you name one or two more? The qualified vets who determine the space requirements for the sheep are really not doing it very well, if I may say so, when over 35,000 died on the ships in one year, and the mortality rates actually ROSE from 2004 to 2005 (28,000+ to 35,000+). The stats are on the DAFF website.
The journo in "The West" was quoting from Professor Lindner's report - and I have told you where you can find that and read it. Forgive me if I trust his maths/economics more than I do yours. If the full Heilbron report is not there, I think a summary document is - or I can paste it in here if you can't find it.
I do not bank with an organization which has moved its call centre to India, or anywhere else outside Australia for that specific reason - nor do I use a telco which has done it. I don't thnk any parts of my car were made in China, but I shall be sure to find out.
Nite nite
Nicky

What percentage of the australia sheep flock die right here? In feed lots, flystrike, barbers pole, drought etc etc. They are an animal with a very high mortality rate. If you checked it out, you might find that the death rate is lower on ships than in the paddock, wouldnt that be interesting ....

Nicky I dont have figures on how many farms use stalls etc. APL probably does, but they are not very forthcoming. They seem to be hanging to the use of crates at all costs and unsupportive of any alternative methods. Their standard responses are getting very tiresome.
This is a favourite:

The organisation's spokesman, John Lamont, yesterday described Voiceless as an extremist group lacking even rudimentary knowledge of proper animal welfare practice.

"Groups such as these prey upon the ignorance of city kids with no real connection to the land, filling their heads with nonsense," he said.

"These groups claim to stand for animal welfare, but advocate farming practices which would result in horrendously cruel outcomes."

I am forced to be a paid member of APL and their stand regarding free range is pretty clear although they will say they are impartial. I wonder if he actually believes that statement?