Live Animal Export Trade is not a new problem.

Despite the fact millions of dollars have been raised, little towards finding an alternative has happend.

We need to find alternatives.

What makes it more viable to export live instead of in a box after slaughter.?

Why are we not doing more?

Animal Welfare Groups and RSPCA are strongly opposed to this cruel trade.

The following was released from Andrew Bartletts Office yesterday who has long called for this cruel trade to be banned.

Live Export suspension Must Be A Catalyst for Change

Democrat Animal Welfare spokesperson, Senator Andrew Bartlett has called for a rethink of the live export trade in the wake of Israel’s suspension of live sheep imports from Australia due to health concerns.

“This is the latest in a long line of problems with Australia’s live export trade and it is way past time that this inhumane practice was ended,” Senator Bartlett said.

“It is another reminder why the federal government should stop propping up such a problematic and troubled industry and take steps to phase it out.

“If the government is concerned about the livelihood of farmers and jobs in Australia it should be doing more to expand the frozen carcass and processed meat trade.

“Economically it makes more sense to value add to a product and create jobs here rather than having ship load after ship load of animals rejected and trade suspended due to the poor health of livestock.

“Live exports are unnecessarily cruel to the animals shipped abroad and their poor treatment and substandard living conditions are well documented.

“The Minister’s version of events about this latest incident should also be taken with a grain of salt, given the long history of cover-ups, deceit and denials when it comes to the live exports trade.

“The trade must be phased out sooner rather than later. The government should focus on ensuring the viable alternatives are ready to pick up the slack,” Senator Bartlett concluded

"This thread is to invite Input from posters as to what can be done towards a solution'

This is a long topic question as all on this forum mostly are.

Just a point here. On other forums when you go in to post a reply, underneath the reply box, is the topic question repeated so that you dont lose your train of thought when answering, most topics have a few points of reference that needs answering.You are able to refer back to topic you are replying and so give the topic question your best possible reply.

A point to consider.As this topic looks complex, it would be very useful when posting replies.

The Live export problem in this country needs exactly this kind of attention, to bring it to the consciuosness of the average punter.

All animal welfare groups need to support each other and band together and stop wasting time on infighting and serving their own interests and political gain . Unity and cohesiveness is what is required to finally get some progress made on relieving suffering for the animals who are subject to this practice.

The time is long past..every day we waste only contributes to more needless suffering for animals subject to Live Exports.

Great to see this new and welcome thread and well done, People Against Live Exports.
I think that this trade exists to a large extent because these importing countries have in place false tariff barriers on frozen/processed meat in order to keep the "downstream processing" (and therefore the jobs and income) in those countries. Warren Truss and his predecessor Mark Vaile have much to answer for
It certainly has nothing to do with religious or cultural sensitivities. In all the investigation footage I have seen, there is no pretence of religious observance (and Australia exports animals to Cathoilic countries as well). The Qu'ran states that animals must not be treated cruelly (yes, we have seen that, animals piled on top of one another, legs trussed, the eyes of cattle stabbed and their leg tendons slashed), they must not be slaughtered within sight of one another, and the knife must be razor sharp (in the footage, throats are sawed at until they bleed).
I am absolutely furious that my tax dollars are spent on propping up this atrocious trade, and if it MUST happen, I would prefer that they be spent on expanding the local processing sector.
This trade exists because of greed. Farmers were happy to see meat workers' jobs disappear along with abattoirs for an extra couple of dollars a head. Now they are paying the price as a result of the drought - and it serves them right. And they shouldn't come "crying poor" for extra handouts because of it either.
Nicky

"This trade exists because of greed. Farmers were happy to see meat workers' jobs disappear along with abattoirs for an extra couple of dollars a head. Now they are paying the price as a result of the drought - and it serves them right. And they shouldn't come "crying poor" for extra handouts because of it either.
Nicky "

Thanks for the insulting comments Nicky. The trade actually exists
because it seems to be beyond city Australians, to take a sheep from
the farmgate to the warf and market it efficiently enough, to
actually pay farmers a fair return. Perhaps you would like them
for free?

I remind you of the present situation. A sheep exported live is
worth three times more to a farmer then one sold through meatworks.

If you call making a living to feed the family greedy, then
clearly you must be included!

Once again Australian city slickers have failed, when benchmarked
in global terms, unlike Aussie farmers. Shame on you.

Hello Yabby
"Failed the benchmark" - I would suggest that farmers do that themselves, if they cannot "make a living to feed their family". Most people in business have to compete in their environment (without constant tax breaks and handouts) while meeting certain community standards of ethics and morals. Not so the live export industry. It responds to no-one's standards but its own (BTW - wharf has a "H"). That industry sends countless animals on appalling journeys on third world ships (almost all are 25 years old and more) to face handling and slaughter practices that they are protected from in this country.
Take the latest catastrophe of the "Maysora", a ship with a lengthy history of welfare issues. An unknown number of calves (but certainly moe than 500) have just died, between on the "Maysora" and in Israeli feedlots, whilst its cargo of sheep was rejected by that country, and later landed in Jordan. The Australian government has just "accredited" certain slaughterhouses in Egypt, most notably Bassetin, where shocking atrocities have been proven a number of times, in the full knowledge that nothing can or will be done about it. Sorry, but if the cap fits...
And please don't include me - I do not buy animal products, and I would much prefer that animals were not "farmed" at all - at least until they are accorded the same legislative and practical protection that "companion" animals are.
Nicky

Nicky, of course I will include you, as you are yet another ill
informed city slicker, passing arrogant judgment about subjects
which you don't seem to know a great deal about.

City Australians are good at selling each other houses, or flipping
the odd big Mac for each other. In terms of the global economy,
you would not even have bananas to sell! Thank country Australians
for your good fortune, its not you who is creating wealth. What do
you do to create export Dollars, to pay our debt to the rest of
the world?

Benchmark Australian farmers against EU, US or NZ farmers and
we look pretty good. Do the same for city Australia and your ability
to value add our products and you fail miserably. I remind you that
in the early 90s, farmers were giving away truck loads of sheep,
as it was easier then to shoot them. City Australia had failed yet
once again!

In economic terms, our best option is really to bypass you completely
and simply put our products on a boat, do the rest offshore, as
you are that hopeless at what you are meant to do.

Yes, 6 sheep that were sent to Israel had scabby mouth. Now what?
Big deal.

Shame on you Nicky, for being so arrogant and so ill informed

Speaking of arrogance and judgements, Yabby, what makes you think I live in a city, or that a country survives on export income alone? I think farming/agriculture contributes only about 3% to GDP (Gross Domestic Product) from the last report I read. In what way do farmers here "stack up" better than those in NZ, or the EU? Mulesing is banned in the UK for the batbaric procedure it undoubtedly is, as are sow stalls, just as a couple of examples. Six sheep with scabby mouth is only what has been REPORTED, and we do not see a great deal of honesty, accountability or transparency from this industry which is totally self-regulating. Do you really not care at all what happens to these animals "once you have put them on a boat"? THAT is what people (and not just those in cities) abhor about those involved in the live export industry; their total insensitivity towards the animals from whom they "earn" their income. It looks like we're never going to come close to agreeing on this one.
Nicky

Umm Nicky, just to inform you, a country that does not pay its bills
needs to borrow from foreign banks to pay them. To explain it to
you on your level, just try ignoring payment of your credit card bills for a few months and tell me how you go...

Farmers here stack up quite easily. Compare our farmgate prices
with those of EU, US or NZ farmers, AU farmers are more then competitive. Our problem is getting products from the farmgate to
the wharf. All those city slicker invented rules, to suit their
own self interest, is the problem. In global terms, frankly you
are bloody hopeless!

Australian farmers are the only ones bankrolling better conditions
for animals in the ME. Its making a real difference. How much
money was spent by Aus animal libber groups on ME animal welfare?
Clearly nothing, they are too busy arguing amongst themselves on
the internet. No taxpayer money sorry, read the MLA budget.

Six sheep had scabby mouth on the Israel shipment. What evidence
do you have that it was any different?

Hello Everybody.

Nicky [Thanks]. Its good to hear from holly and celivia as well. You too Yabbie. Have you seen these http://www.livexports.com/afic.html
http://www.livexports.com/queen.html
You may find the "eye witness" link interesting
http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

If you want to stop, live animals exports you have to deal with the people who are buying them alive. We have to offer both them and the Australian farmers a better deal. Pale has already done a great deal of leg work to kick this off but has received huge oppostion from AA AL Voiceless. We are very frustrated by the lack of interest to captilise on that by everybody.' Meaning RSPCA, AVA National, Animals Australia Voiceless. It would be fair to say ninety percent of farmer have never asked the relavant questions.
No Yabby Shame on Australia to support such a cruel trade. According to Peter Mc Gaurans advisor Anne McDonald who flew to the Gold Coast for meeting a few months ago >its $20.00 dollars a head difference Yabby. My god surely Australia is not such a desperate country that we have to sacrifice these animals to go through so much for a lousey twenty dollars difference. Make it $1000.00 dollars if you like. There is your shame. You said on the other thread nobody had put up a alternative. Thats is not true Yabby. This was put up to Senator Bartlett and all Senators at his enquiry into animal welfare. Now before you start it was presented by the Muslim leaders themselves and! there is considerable interest from overseas. The reason I started this thread was to look into why as you said Andrew has not worked on this and groups such as Animals Australia vioceless etc.
Here it is everyone so if you could look at it Yabby and tell me whats is wrong with it because you have never once acknowledged it.
I am angry with Andrew Yabby because as you said you have not seen him come up with any alternatives yet he had this handed to him on a plate.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

Ok, you want my honest opinion, I printed out your 5 page submission
over lunch and read it. Quite frankly it sounds like a heap
of gobbldygook to me and I don't blame anyone for ignoring it.

What do you expect anyone to make of it? If you guys have some
fantasies of free range farms, great, go out and make it happen
if you can find supporters.

I just don't see how your document has much to do with the live sheep
trade or with the reality of the meat industry in WA.

Sorry, I'm saying it as I read it, so shoot the messenger :)

Nicky
Dont upset yourself too much with our old Yabbs. Some days the worms effect him more than others. He has in the past actually written some good letters to rurual Press and others with ideas of opening more plants in WA and involving the farmers as share holders.
I think thats the way you had in mind wasnt it Yabby?
So let me get this straight Yabby. You suggested PF write her book and - Go for it- towards assisting others to get into free Range Pork farming , but you dont think it can be done with any other animal of farmer. huh?
I am sure Dr Ali and Tom the x Federal leader of AMIEU and the overseas Governments might live with your goobleygook. [Whatever that is.] The Minister for ag doesnt thinks the idea is interesting but we need some input from others.
Jerusalem October 27th, 2003 the Israeli Supreme court issued today an "order nisi' requiring the ministry of Agriculture and other State authorities to give reason within 60 days why the imports live animals from Australia should not stop,uless a long series of substantive defaults were fixed and relevant regulations are issued and abundant photographic evidence provided. The Supreme Cort judges were especially annoyed by the fact no welfare concerns were noted from Australia.
The fact is everybody Australia is so far from anywhere else only an evil cruel mind would consider sending animals on such a long trip for an extra twenty or even a hundred dollars.
Now the farmers are aware of the non exsisting animal welfare kin other countries it really is up to them to take steps to find alternatives. Any farmer who is not interested to help find alternatives and sends a nimals alive overseas deserves what ever Nicky dishes out and more.

Your not a live Animal expoter Yabby I know that much from speaking with you for some time now.

I thought you might help PF with your idea.
Goodnight Antj

Hi all
I've just read the submission now, and can't help wondering if there is some sort of business plan prepared that attaches to it. I'm a bit mystified about the inclusion of all the US stuff and feeding animals other animal by-products, since the practice is illegal here. As a submission alone, that much of it is, I think, irrelevant. So what was it that you expected Andrew (Bartlett?) to do with it exactly?
As a submission in relation to the National Animal Welfare Bill, it really doesn't address any part of the Bill itself or the Explanatory Memoranda either. In order for them to consider it in relation to the Bill, it needed to look at the different sections and comment as appropriate.
It might be worth noting too - the Senate Committee includes AT LEAST two politicians with farming interests, one of whom boasts at length about her involvement in live exports (in Hansard, if you're ever given to reading it; it's pretty deadly stuff mostly) - Jeannie Ferris. Sorry - those are just my late night thoughts:)
Goodnight everyone
Nicky

Nicky
[q]Is it a business plan?
[a[ no its a invitation to a tea party.

If the ministers cant identy with the business plan of a proposal how are they going to look at introducing new proposals?

Its a "policy proposal" for a structure to develop a business plan for companies wishing to phase out live exports by converting to co jointly operate with currect live importers of animals from the Australian Federation Of Islamic council RSPCA QLD and others.

Dont you worry about that Nicky I should think considering the middle East take millions of animals for Halal Slaughter alive! each year having the muslim leaders of Australia interested to do their bit to stop cruelty to animals might be helpful.


This political correctness introdoced by a extreme of politically correct animal groups playing a political game[ so long as its what Andrew instructs is incredible.

Fortunatley at least Peter Beattie could understand it - Peter McGauran finds it interseting and John Howards staff seem to follow it. Mark vaile is waiting for some further details.

If the Government cant see any merritt in a business plan and something Austrade and Mark Vaile can market then its not going to make any difference if Mohamed crossed his Ts and Dotted his whatever.

Tell you what Nicky.
just give us verna Simpson of the NSW Humane Soceity International who put together the Free range Accreditations and strongly support the proposal.

Thats ok You and AA keep playing your political games under Andrews directions.

You know the only thing i have never been able to work out is if its being done purposley or they really are 'that gulable.'

I repeat if you dont understand the meat trade [world wide] you will never help animals.



What is it we expect Andrew to do?

Something. Come up with an alternative . As a person . Nicky there are many polys with interests in live animal exports both in federal and! states

I farm sheep, prime lambs, I also try very hard to plant trees, and use chemical free farming practices. I succeed at this most of the time. Except this year times are extremely tough. As a farmer, who personally eats very little meat, I do not push any anti vegetarian or anti vegan points of view. Pushing points of view too hard causes a great deal of stress on both sides. However, I do enjoy my occasional roast with my roast vegies. I am absolutely dead against live export. It is a cruel and horrific industry which causes never ending pain on innocent animals. Every week I ring my local abattoir to see if I can take down an amount of sheep to lessen my feed bill. The sheep that are going would be going anyway next year in Autumn. The abattoir is only 80 klms away. Short trip. Less stress. Also less money. Live export takes away jobs from Australians. This in itself is bad enough. My motto is "If you eat 'em dont mistreat 'em". The whys' and wherefores' of eating meat go back thousands of years, a most complex subject. How do we stop live export? Vote for the people who are against it. Dont donate money to organisations that have "lip service" only. Actions speak better than words. It is the actions you need to analyse and follow up on. cheers Farmer.

Farmer

Welcome to the thread. A Sheep Farmer 'with morals' this must be my lucky day. Yes point taken I am getting worn about the feathers and a bit short fused. Spent years trying to educate the animal libbers and sick to death of it. Sure we need to take action Sheep Farmer and very soon as live exports has grown and grown over the years while they hold rallies and fund raise.

Your correct 'action is required.' Right now State and Federal Government will look at any sensible proposal with view of being supportive that will reopen plants.

All we hear from yabby - who by the way is not a live exporter of animals' is we got to send them live because how can we slaughter three million pluss here./
Answer by getting together with the other farmers and getting them involved as share holders or whatever.
Rodger Fletcher makes millions per year and employ hundreds of staff slaughtering here in Australia. If Rodger can do it so can others with a bit of will. Yabby complains Rodger buys cheap because he has nno opposition. Well - give him some.
If you want an examample of a great Australia working in the abattoir industry look no furher than Rodger. So now we are going to hear moans about not being able to get staff. Ok point taken. Then create staff. Train staff and above all educate the people about the ALP and their part in being just as responsible for this mess.
Do a deal with exsisting plants in the mean time to run two shifts or three shifts to get through.
There are plenty! of overeas workers coiming into Australia. I suggest with respect to the animal groups they push to allow plant workers in. I dont here much from them about the ALP and the unuions. Nor do I hear much from Andrew about it.
Tell the public why we have problems getting abattoir workers into Australia. Look I am not against any! animal welfare group but they need to rethink their policies.

Farmer
Sorry about spelling mistakes. I try to post on the forum and I have to type flat out in order to do that and the other work. My spell checks shows up as working but many times that is not the case.
Its a speed thing for me 'sorry.' I am going to put a link up called Free Range Farmers support group. On it will be a place where you can go in and list your farm and promote your products. Well its not actually there yet but we are working on it and it will be.
If you click on free trade leads you will see some of the overseas contacts requesting Australian products. There is no order to this list as I have just put a few up to kick off with. From the top of my head I dont recall sheep as yet. The idea is to provide this service for free to help farmers especially through drought times. The only requirements for anybody interested is they sign a pledge not to engage in live exports or promote intensive farming. If Australia smaller farmers are going to catch up they will do so by value adding and dealing direct with overseas importers. All assistance to acheive that is given free of charge both to Australian farmers and overseas customers.> Perhaps you will eventually see somebody asking for lamb and you can talk to them about finding a suitable plant in your area. Big things come from direct contacts and only the farmers know where plants need to be built in their own areas Australia wide. Here it is. Click onFree Trade leads and remember its nowhere near finished.
Antje

http://www.freerangefarmers.com/freerange/leads.html

ROFL Ozgirl, good to see you have now become a sheep farmer :)

Very interesting subject!

Need ideas? Here is one. How about if all (export)farmers pitch in and invest in a mobile floating slaughter facility and catch shark or other fish with the offal and deliver the goods (fish and meats)and fertilizer frozen at the destination.No animal suffering, keep the ships decks clean and make more work for Ozzies on board and get a price for the offal product enhancement as fish. Can I get a patent for this idea?

Pale, are you saying that all the 'free leads' have contacted your office? Can you guarantee their authenticity?

Today I finally read your submission. I also read Nicky's post tonight on the carpark. I would have to agree with her. I found the document very hard to follow and I have some idea of what you stand for. I am only saying this to point out that the uninitiated would have a hard time understanding what it was all about.

I was intrigued by the description and acceptance of organic products though when you guys seemed to have little understanding of the standard.

PF
If you read the sub from AFIC you would get the picture. They also put a lenghty sub in the year before covering many codes of practice.

These were their first attempts and although it may not follow proticol I for one are very proud of their efforts.

You got Muslim leaders offering to help with the problem of live exports and finding alternatives and your still complaining Nicky.

Thank Heavens for the HSI and Verna Simpson working together with us and RSPCA QLD

Now if you want to assure yourself these are not bodgey leads iguess I could send you some other details'in confidence'
We do have a certain in business confidence to consider but if you are sincere in your enquiry sure of course no problem.

Just let me know what you are interested in and what you would like me to send you.

No PF I know the difference between organic and free range pork. My point was the public dont know. The question was how are we going to inform the public of the difference.
We both know Yabby is right about telling people to buy free range pork when there is none to buy.

How are you going with your ideas to assist others into Free Range Farms and doing your book.?

Do you think your friends would be interested in starting a free range pork co op?

Yabby I dont think the farmer is ozgirl. I will be taking some time off soon . Just thought I would let you all know.

I would really welcome ideas of alternative methods to divert live exports and establish plants in Australia if anybody has any.
That is why I opended this thread.

Goodnight everybody.

Hi all
To PALE firstly - I am not under the direction of any animal advocacy group, nor that of Andrew Bartlett and nor are any groups under his direction either. Your document is NOT a business plan; firstly you have no budgets, no cashflow projections, no regional impact studies - none of the practicalities that would qualify it as such a document. It qualifies as a vague policy statement to no-one in particular.
As an address to National Animal Welfare Strategy for the consideration of the Senate Committee for Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport, it makes no attempt to address the bill at all, so I wonder why it was even sent there. If Howard, McGauran and Beattie are so supportive, why are they pushing live exports to unconscionable lengths (eg yesterday's report of the Queensland Government having signed a $3m deal with Malaysia to export live animals?)
How long ago was this support? I ask because it is some time since Mark Vaile was Minister for Trade; that is now the dreaded Warren Truss, who wouldn't know a good submission about anything unless it got up and bit him.
I've already pointed out what you need to do if you want the meat processing industry to expand, but you don't want to know. What is needed here is not necessarily a broad knowledge of international meat trade, it is the ability to coherently lobby the government, with detailed business plans which include assessment techniques like SWOT analyses, labour market data (from the DEWR or perhaps the Monash University Centre for Population Studies webaites) financial data, and a measurable time frame. In particular it should have some form of executive summary which should summarize your expectations of the government.
Nicky

Nicky
Your capable of doing this?- with some input from those in the meat industry ? Peter McGauran is waiting for it and our person became ill who was to do it. I have been asked to offer you the sum of five thousand dollars if you would help. Payment anyway you wish. Through RSPCA QLD if you like or your lawyer.

PF
Yes Here is one that came last night so you can contact direct.
______________________________________________________________
To respond to this inquiry mailto:import_corporation@yahoo.com
Email : import_corporation@yahoo.com
Global Australian All Kind Meats
______________________________________________________________
Subject - WANTED : Frozen Pork Meat
______________________________________________________________

Our company is interested to get some details regarding PORK BACK FAT.
If you can supply us with Pork Back Fat.
How many KG or TONES will be fit in container and what kind of container.
What wiil be price up to CIF POTI Port, Delivery time and payment
details.
Subject - WANTED : Pork, poultry
______________________________________________________________

" Here is another to check out'

We are interested in Pork carcasses and cuts, such as loins, shoulders
4D, forends, but also poultry : thigh of chickens, breast/fillet of
chickens.
We can take care of transport.

Transaction: non-cash payment, on time - limit (20 - 30 days)

Order: approximately 42 ton monthly.

Regards
Anna Korcewicz

__________________________________________________________
Anna Korcewicz
P.H.U. "OLA"
Phone : + 48 43 823 62 39
Fax : + 48 43 823 62 39
Email : anna.korcewicz@op.pl
Homepage :

To respond to this inquiry mailto:anna.korcewicz@op.pl
Email : anna.korcewicz@op.pl

Nicky please consider. Once that is lodged together with AFIC we will meet with Ministers and reps from the Prime Ministers office.
You are most welcome to join us.
It is not easy to find a person with both interst and know how all together

Hi, All slaughtering can be done here in Australia. Dont listen to what those Politicians have to say. At the moment every abattoir in Australia is working absolutely flat chat to keep up with the animals that are pouring into the premises. This is all due to the drought. This drought is proving that Australia can cope with the numbers. The numbers at the moment are just instant. What happens when the livestock has been and gone. Another slump in abattoirs. Then our wonderful politicians stand up and say "We told you so, there are not enough animals to keep the abattoirs open" I would like to swear here. If all the animals that went on the ships, went through the Aus abattoirs, all the employees would be working overtime and getting the wage they deserve. Its hard work in an abattoir. Hard work. I have spoken to some of the workers a couple of years ago, checking out abattoirs to make sure my animals would go to a decent slaughter house. One young guy said it still upsets him, but its a job. Jobs have been created so that human beings can be slaves to the "upper crust" their whole lives. Australian abattoirs can cope with the numbers, especially if they stopped closing them down. Who owns these abattoirs? Who owns the shipping companies? Who is getting the biggest dollar out of all this? Its not the farmer. Its the guy who owns all the assets and business in the live export industry. How many fingers can one person have in any one pie? Mr Bailleau is a prime example. As I previously said, vote for politicians who will stop live export. This is the only way. As a farmer after all my costs I earn less than the pension. If I give up farming, then some other person will step in, who is not as caring as I am. So I hang in there. I also try to repair the environment through owning the farm, by planting trees and making sure all wildlife is safe on my farm.

"Now if you want to assure yourself these are not bodgey leads iguess I could send you some other details'in confidence'
We do have a certain in business confidence to consider but if you are sincere in your enquiry sure of course no problem. "

These 'leads' seem to be cut and pasted from older listings at http://www.go4worldbusiness.com/Transportation Nothing confidential about that. Please realise that people in the business are usually aware of what is going on.

My 'friends' are alike businesses spread all over the country, not a situation conducive to a cooperative arrangement.

I will be chipping away at writing my experiences with free range farming and will probably just stick to posting them on the website. It will take some time, but if I do it subject by subject they can gradually be added to the site. If that proves popular, i can go from there.

I really do think you should listen to Nicky's advice if you want to be heard.

Ok so let me sum it up so far: First we have our fearless GoldCoast
animal libbers, they know, they have seen the old antiquated 60
Minutes data, it must still all be true. They will stop the evil
exporters!

Then we have our resident veggie bureaucrat, who knows how to lobby
but doesent seem to know the first thing about the meat industry,
the WA situation in particular, but she doesent seem to think that
this really matters. Wage subsidies will solve it all she thinks.

Then we have our alleged "farmer" who sounds just like Benny the
alleged butcher, who forgot where he lived. Clearly our alleged
farmer is not aware that WA is part of Australia, nor the problems
that exist in the WA meat industry, so can't be reading too many
farming papers. Perhaps our "farmer", judging by the posts so far,
is just yet another fraud, which seems rather common on these
animal welfare threads.

Next we have WA farmers, who are busy loading another half a million
lambs for the Hajj festival, where live animals are required for
religious reasons. These lambs are not wanted by the local trade,
but are worth 3 times more to the customers on boats. Besides, there
would be no killing space for them. The farmers are cheering the
live sheep trade, they can actually now buy their family some presents for Chrissy, their net income has virtually doubled then
what would have been, if the animal libbers had their way.

Then we have a few meat processors. They would love to build new
plants in WA, but red tape has bogged them down completely, they
can't get labour, even if they are prepared to train, so in frustration at the system, they decide not to bother.

Sheesh, WA, with 10% of the population, producing 30-40% of exports,
would be far better simply seceding from the East, then we could
make our own decisions.

I think youll find Yabby that your statement."Sheesh WA,with 10% of the population, producing 30-40 percent of exports would be far better sinmply seceding from the East,then we could make our own decisions.":

It might be useful if you cut and paste a link to qualify those assertions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australia

"Western Australia, with about 10% of Australia's population, has historically generated approximately 30% of Australia's export revenues, however the recent commodities boom has pushed this figure to almost 40%."

There ya go HS, thats just one of many assertions if you google.

PF
Those leads were from a trade leads. The other leads I offered to foward you are 'private contacts'. Everybody must work at their own pace and it seems you prefer to work on your book. You didnt get back to me about the advisory so I assume perhaps your too busy.
It great you have the interest in Animal Welfare. Not all farmers do.

Yabby I already told you I am sure 99%Ozgirl is not the Farmer.

Yes PF Nicky is right about the proposal for the Ministers office. Yabby Is right as well as is AFIC plus the Animal Liberation people and AA . Thats the whole point everybody nneeds tro contribute.

Yabby You know very well we are not animal liberation

You cant fix it without some serious imput from those with knowledge of the meat trade.
Its just just not possible if you want Government and other players to look at anything seriously.
It is as Yabby said impossible not to to leave the meat industry out of it when we are in fact talking about the meat trade.

It will also take some very serious money to establish new plants and the Government would be expected to be surportive .

I started this thread to discuss alternatives to live exports and intensive farming.
It would be good if we could get past Animal Liberation and Animals Australia are running a rally here or there. Yes its FANTASIC they are doing something. I dont know just how many times you would like me to say that.
I just want to do more because despite great intentions from all the Animal Liberation people intensive farming is on the increase as is live exports.
I mentioned earlier I will be travelling for a few weeks to farms with others and then taking a hoilday break.
I will of course check in as often as possibly and I am not due to leave for a few days yet.
Thanks everybody for your comments.

Hi all
Yabby, for someone who claims to not make assumptions, you make an awful lot of them here. Firstly, what makes you think I'm a bureaucrat? What I have said is simply common-sense business practice; not too difficult to grasp for a management consultant, and applying those skills to the meat industry really is not rocket science. You are very simplistic in your approach.
As I pointed out before, the wealth of a country is not dependent upon export dollars alone, and the live export trade is known to cost millions in lost GDP and household income (yes, I have read the last Hassall and Associates claptrap, claiming that the industry supports the banking and insurance industries, for God's sake, then extrapolate the highly suspect figures of their 2000 report to come to their misleading conclusions. Vested interests).
You are currently delighted with the trade and the extra dollars you say it makes for the farmers. You pre-suppose (correctly I think)that no WA farmers give a damn about the welfare of their animals. Perhaps some WOULD prefer to keep them in this country. I also did not say that wage subsidies were the universal panacea, but if you care to have a look at DEWR statistics, you will find that they, and "broker programs" were the most effective way of a) rescuing industries in trouble and b) countering unemployment.
How do you know that a properly constructed business development plan, possibly with AFIC, wouldn't be an effective way of phasing out live exports? It won't happen overnight naturally. But one thing you people in WA will have to contend with is the changes in Marine Orders No. 43 from January 2007. Those changes will see the worst of the ships currently used removed from Australian waters and/or carrying Australian live animals. And there is quite a number of absolute shockers - even the crews jump ship, if you care to read some extracts from Hansard.
PALE - thank you for your enquiry, I think I'm over the word limit so I'll have to respond in a separate post.
Nicky

A link that explains puts into perspective the cruelty and issues surrounding the Live Export practice.

http://www.liveexportshame.com/

Nicky, the world is full of bureaucratically minded business
consultants, who can tell people how to farm the taxpayer.
That does not mean its sustainable or good business practise,
or that it will solve anything in the long term. We've
had plenty of examples of politicians throwing money at industries,
only to find out it was a huge waste all along.

As an award winning exporter who has competed in the global
economy, I happen to know just a little about business too :)

Apples are not oranges and if you have a problem in one
industry, the first thing you do is closely examine why
there is a problem, there are usually good reasons. Industries
differ hugely in that regard, the meat industry is no exception.

You then find sustainable solutions, part of which is providing
your consumer with what they actually want.

Sorry, but no exports and you have a banana republic, your peso
won't be worth much in global terms.

Who said farmers don't care about their animals? Farmers are simply
aware of the changes happening within the industry, the new standards, the new boats, the phasing out of old boats, etc. etc.
Its a quite different industry, compared to the reruns of old
antiquated film clippings, being rerun again and again by animal
libber groups, all wanting money from the public.

I am the first to be keen on new meat plants in WA and have said so
many times. But I also know of the rogues in the meat industry and
the live trade forces them to be at least a little honest and gives
farmers an alternative.

If you want plants built here, let us import the labour we need,
jobs that Aussies dont want, and get rid of the taxes and red tape.
Then the industry can grow all by itself, no need for Govts to
build any plants.

Hi Yabby - juat a quick one for now 'cause it's bedtime and a work day tomorrow. Just for now, could you please enlighten me about the new ships? The newest one is the "Becrux", built in 2002, and we all know about its maiden voyage. Nevertheless, it is the usual one that farmers and journos get to go on. Renaming the "Rodolfo Mata" the "Deben Prima" doesn't make it a new ship, it was an old container ship called the "Ming Universe". Renaming the infamous "Farid F" the "Torrens" likewise, and of course you would know that Vroon BV bought all the terrible old Labroy ships and renamed them anything suffixed by "Express". All this information is available at a website called www.liveexportshame.com where there is a document entitled "A Disaster by any other name" - check out the updated version. Someone did a lot of work on that.
I'm not suggesting that we don't export anything - just don't export living, feeling, sensitive, suffering animals into the hands of savage butchers who, in reality, have absolutely no religious conviction whatsoever. That's just propaganda.
Nite nite
Nicky

http://www.marinelink.com/Story/ShowStory.aspx?StoryID=201497

Thats just a couple that I last heard that Siba ships were building.
So lots is happening in the industry, lots of changes.

You won't see many ships on the water in Jan-Feb, all are booked
in for refits and upgrades, which is all good news. Lets just
thank them for the amazing job that they have done in the last
few months, moving huge amounts of livestock which otherwise would
have died in the paddocks and still paid farmers a fair return,
unlike our rogue meat processors, who screwed the market for all
they could.

But anyhow, I don't see a problem with older ships, if they are
upgraded and improved, even if 25 years old. You girls would
scream loudly, if we threw you on the scrapheap and put you
out to pasture after 25, for a younger version :)

I've actually suggested on this forum that we should make up some
signs about it being the duty of muslims to be kind to animals and
hang them up throughout the Middle East. Nobody was interested,
I guess thats not what draws people to donate money to the libber
groups, so that they can fool around on the internet.

The Chinese are shipping 90'000 live lambs for this years Hajj.
China actually has more sheep then Australia, so they might yet
cut us out of the trade in future. Ifso then any money that
Aussie farmers have spent on animal welfare in the ME, will benefit
them too. I can't see China being concerned with welfare issues.

No thanks to animal libber groups. What are they doing to change
things in the Middle East? Nothing as far as I can tell.
I guess talking about Chinese lambs is not how they manage to collect
donations from the Australian public.

I thought this was an interesting article from Farmonline today:

A telephone poll has shown that six in 10 Australians believe the livestock export industry is cruel.

Commissioned by the RSPCA and conducted by Roy Morgan research, the poll found 40pc of respondents stated “conditions of transport” as the main factor in their belief.

Heat, overcrowding, lack of food and water and deaths in transit were examples most often given by those who believe the trade is cruel.

A total of 850 Australians were surveyed and were asked for their reaction to the statement that “The current export trade of live animals from Australia is cruel.”

Reacting to the release, SAMEX sheep buyer Viv Burton said, "I have been in this industry for 30 to 40 years and the improvement has been amazing, mortalities are down below.

"If people are really concerned about animal welfare they would know what a difference Australia is making overseas.”

Conditions of transport are peoples main concern? I thought it would have been overseas slaughter methods.

Yabby, dont call me an "alleged" farmer. I am dinky di. Do you walk your paddocks at night in the freezing bloody cold weather and rain, frost, to make sure all the sheep and lambs are ok from foxes and neighbours dogs. I bet you dont. Baiting for foxes that rip apart and eat alive, animals they have brought down. Phone calls from Landcare members, who are millionaire cattle owners, who dont need to bait for foxes, ring me up and ask me not to bait because they are worried about their dogs. The law is keep your dog under restraint. The unwritten law in the country is, your dog kills my livestock I shoot your dog, and dont ask me what happened to it, because I ai'nt saying a word. Do you just jump in on the bandwagon and take what you can for the lowest dollar and sell for the highest price? Every move I make is scrutinised by neighbours. Who is scrutinising the live export business? The Government? Who said things were better overseas in the Middle East slaughter yards? Only the people who run such places. Four people have committed suicide in the last three years in my area, bullet through the head, because of the desperate situation farmers are in. Farmers are put into such situations because of greedy money grabbing parasites. We get told what to do in this country. Democracy? Where is it. Whats the name of that guy who is currently telling all Australians its nuclear power and nothing else? Is it Howardcanyoumakeit? Cruelty is not necessary. Cruelty is evil. Cruelty comes automatically from people who are selfish and think only of their own needs. There are cruel farmers out there, but I am not one of them. Maybe you would like to pay my feedbill Yabby. I am telling it as I see it.

Yabby I am well aware that WA is part of this country, and WA is not the only state where farmers are in serious trouble. I am also aware that WA has a halal slaughter house that cannot get enough work because of the live export industry. The reason why China has so many sheep is again because of what I call "unethical" farmers. Who cross breed sheed, then sell the breeders for $1000 a head and ship them off. These cross bred sheep are large and mainly do not need shearing. They are either a Wiltshire Horn full blood or crossed with a Dorper. I also know the "top gun shearer" who went to China to teach them to shear, breed and take care of merinos. I cannot say what his comments were, but they were very negative. Bit like putting a square block in a round hole. I am not anybody else except myself, so stop being paranoid, and thinking that everyone is possibly some one else. I have recently turned down an offer for my prime lambs from a farmer up in the irrigated areas of Victoria, wants to fatten wethers for export. When I found out it was live export I said no. I produce a quality product and its for Aussies who want it, not for overseas. Every week I ring the local abattoir to see if I can send off my aged sheep. The answer has been for the last 8 weeks, no too many coming in. So I am still waiting to ship off half my flock, and meanwhile the feed bill gets bigger and bigger. Not a farmer. Give me a break. The reason for my second post is because of the size content of the post.

Farmer,

Pay him no mind.

I can see your genuine and seem to know your stuff and you are genuinely care about the welfare of your animals..

You dont have to justify yourself to him, if he's that bored thats his problem.

Cruelty is inflicted by farmers and producers only caring about their own bottom line and nothing for the animals in their care.You are quite right.

Yes I would send him your next feed bill.

I have been waiting for someone to suggest just how you keep 10 boxes of frozen or chilled sheep, in a pen, at the back of a butcher shop.
Yes, thats right, many of the butchers, where a lot of live exports go, don't even have electricity, or if they do, they don't have it regularly, or reliably.
Perhaps you've noticed, but probably not, that live sheep don't go rotten when the power fails.
Talk some sense, & mabe get a life .

"I have recently turned down an offer for my prime lambs from a farmer up in the irrigated areas of Victoria, wants to fatten wethers for export."

Whew alleged farmer, with your knowledge of farming, no wonder
you can't make a living at it. Perhaps best to just go on that
pension hey, or do housework or something :)

Any farmer would know that its merino wethers that go on the
boat trade, not prime lamb wethers. Prime lamb wethers can be
sold for far better money to the American carcass trade, then
the live trade would ever offer. Merino wethers are cheap as
chips in Victoria, no need to buy prime lambs for that.
Hajj lambs are different again, they are generally merino lambs
with long tails and testicles, grown under contract especially
for the Hajj festival each year.

If you were a farmer you would also know that hundreds of thousands
of sheep from WA are trucked East every year, because of lack of
slaughter capacity here and thus lack of competition in the saleyards. But of course to be a real farmer, you would have to
read real farming papers....

So just for now, I'll stick to my Ozgirl theory lol.

Dear hasbeen ... I see you have been taken in by the propaganda that the live export industry and the government spins as defences for the indefensible. Think about it - who owns most of the world's oil, and spends more on infrastructure than anyone else? Of course they have power and refrigeration. They already import over 50,000 tonnesof frozen meat a year. The other element of the propaganda is the "religious" or "cultural" argument. The Qu'ran states that animals are not to be treated cruelly, are not to see the knife, the knife must be razor sharp and they must not be slaughtered within sight of one another. Take yourself to www.animalsaustralia.org, Middle East Investigation and you won't see a pretence of religious observance, nor the adoption of the other precepts.
Yabby, I am so sorry - I missed that idea, and I think it is excellent. I shall pass it on to some people who may be able to do it. I understand that Siba Ships is building two carriers, but I think you'll find they will be smaller, and more likely for short-haul trips (see the emphasis shift from the Middle East to South East Asia, and possibly cattle over sheep.
I think older ships CAN be fine, but just SOME of those from which the crew has "jumped" are (and this is certainly not exhaustive)_the Al Messilah, Al Shuwaikh, Al Kuwait, Danny F II and more. It's a matter of public record in Hansard.
A ship's officer I met a year or so ago told me that in many cases, although the requirements for ventilation are specific and exacting, many of the ships he knows simply don't bother to run it once they are outside Australian waters, because of the cost. Hence the heat exhaustion and suffocation. And although the ALES (Standards) are specific too about length of wool, some I've seen being loaded certainly did not comply with that. Lodge a complaint? I did - and got precisely nowhere. They can't even comply with their OWN standards.
Bye for now,
Nicky

It is a well known fact Yabbies make good bait on a hook to feed the fish. Have all the opinions you like Yabby, you are wrong. My contact in upper Vic is selling to an Exporter for live export. The sheep will probably be trucked quite some distance. Tatiara Meat Company is currently calling for forward contracts for farmers. I spoke to Dale Cameron myself today, but again it appears some will be shipped live and some probably chilled meat. As far as WA is concerned, I know how many animals are trucked. Also Yabby seeing you know all, maybe you would like to tell us how many abattoirs have been closed down over there. How many cattle died just recently on a shipment to Israel, was it over the 400 mark, Nicky you may be able to clarify that for me. Apparently an investigation is happening into the incident. Or seeing Yabby is so well informed, maybe the information can come from you. As far as Merinos are concerned going overseas, I know very well what goes overseas. Refer to footage taken by Animals Australia some time ago. Merino crosses, colour on the face, most likely Merino/Suffolk. The two sheep being carried in the wheelbarrow were Merino X (colour on noses).Sheep being thrown from truck onto the ground, was a Wiltshire Horn. If only Merino wethers go live export, why was there footage and an uproar by Animal Advocates about Merino ewes on live export ships dropping lambs during the voyage. I might be an old farmer, but I know my sheep mate. Live export is cruel, whether it be cruel due to the inability of workers on the ship to understand the correct handling of livestock, the lack of ventilation, the dry feed causing eye irritation it is cruel. Anyone who says live export is not cruel needs to stand 24 hours a day in their own body waste for three weeks minimum, suffer from lack of correct ventilation, and high temperatures. Then tell me its not cruel. Leave it with you Yabby.

By the way Yabby, farmer in upper Vic, is wanting lambs to grow out on lucerne, he has irrigation. He is not selling immediately they will not be going until June or July 2007. This farmer also only breeds full blood Wiltshire Horn. It is a Stud. If you know anything about Studs, only the very best which are few, are kept for stud registration as Rams or Stud Ewes. All other rams are wethered. If you also know anything about sheep, you will also know that the Wiltshire Horn breed is a very old breed around 2000 years old. Dates back possibly to Rome and was taken over to England many hundreds of years ago. Also the Wiltshire Horn needs no shearing or crutching. The Wiltshire Horn also gives a better carcass percentage over the hooks. The meat of the Wiltshire Horn is extremely lean and the taste is at the top of the list, but I am just a dumb "alleged" farmer. Up until about fifteen years ago, the Wiltshire Horn numbers were very few, and as a species was endangered. The Wiltshire Horn is now in America and New Zealand due to the breeding program started here many years ago by a guy in Shepparton. I also have Shropshires which are endangered and their numbers very few in this country. Want to know anything else about sheep Yabby, just ask away. Farmer.

ROFL alleged farmer, now we have a hobby farmer with a few pet
Wiltshires and Shropshires, claiming to know about farming :)

Now these prime lambs, fattened on lucerne, were going to be
sold to the live trade in July. Umm, in that time a prime lamb
can be taken from 0-24 kg cwt and sold for 90-100$ to the
American carcass trade for 100 bucks, forget the 50$ live trade!
You are clearly confused :)

Even this week, fattened prime lambs in Victoria for local slaughter
were making 80-100$, so why would anyone sell them to the
live trade for 50$? Sorry, but you can only fool some of the people
some of the time.

The lambs that you saw were most likely not what you claim, but
in fact Damaras and Dorpers from WA. Yes WA sends a few of
them, simply because lambs values here are far below ES prices.
Farmers are not fools, they adjust to market circumstances.

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/media_centre/media_releases.phtml

will tell you a bit about that live trade that you claim is cruel.

http://www.liveexportcare.com/index.html

will answer some more questions, which you as as an mla levy
payer should know all about, given that even WA meat processors
are on the MLA board and support the trade.

Meatworks closed in WA were clapped out Govt run, out of
date monstrosities, which happened 20 years ago. Do you
still drive a 1920s car? Learn from NZ please.

It maybe best to stick to that pension and housework :)

Nicky I would really appreciate a reply

Regards

Antje

Yabby......'even this week fattened prime lambs for local slaughter were making $80-100..'

You keep forgetting to source your information. source your information.

Farmer I think he's trying to get you banned.

Thankyou Holyshadow for your comment. Yabby, my family on both sides has been in farming for hundreds of years. I chose to give up the Merinos due to theft of sheep, the heavy maintenance required, the difficulty in getting a shearer. I chose WH because there is no shearing or crutching at all. I investigated Darmara and Dorper, and decided against both; 1) Damara due to the fact they do much better in a warmer climate such as WA, also they are unable to cope with too much wet grass which can cause problems with the gut. My area does have or used to have very heavy rainfall, once we had 9 inches in one night, hence the town down the hill was flooded. That was quite some time ago. 2)Dorper, because they can develop footrot when in a wet environment for any lengthy period of time. I have spoken to and visited Studs of both these breeds. The Wiltshire Horn and Shropshire are seasonal breeders, ewes coming into season in Autumn. Therefore lambs dropping generally from 1 Aug on. They are behind other lambs by about 3-4 months. Other farmers in my area who have merinos, have lambs dropping in early May, some late April. The WH lamb is not ready for market until at least late Feb early March due to the shedding of the wool. Any earlier and the loose wool clogs up the machines at the abattoirs. The WH also does not like rounding up by a dog. They are naturally aggressive towards dogs/foxes same as the Damara. The WH is an easy care maintenance sheep. Regardless of all of the above, I still will not send my sheep/lambs live export. The sheep I was referring to in my previous post were not Damara or Dorper, or even remotely anything like a Damara/Dorper X. They were Merino X and the one being thrown from the truck was a WH or WH X. I do not have to prove my credentials to you Yabby in any way. Which is what you seem to be aiming for. Farmer

Yabby, with regard to all of your assumptions, which are totally incorrect. I can only feel sorry for you, that you must resort to such negative karma. From what you have said, about myself, I can only guess, that you do not wish a farmer to be posting comments against live export. Your knowledge of the live export industry especially WA, could lead me to believe you are a farmer in WA or a person very heavily involved in the live export industry and you wish to discredit others or myself for speaking out about it. It is a cruel industry, if it was not so cruel, then animal groups would have nothing to complain about. Where there is smoke there is fire. I hope you can begin to comment more on what the thread is about rather than trying to discredit others. Yabby, you have no idea how many times I have communicated with Livecorp making suggestions for better transport. You have absolutely no idea. I want to see live export from Australia the best in the world and I have said this to all concerned in government, Livecorp and MLA. I hope you have a nice weekend Yabby, because I am going to regardless of what you have said about me. Farmer

Farmer, Yabby is targeting you it would seem, believing you to be someone else.

I would hazard a guess its someone he has been instruemental in having banned previuosly, because by the way he talks he makes assumptions, based on his own foolish predjudice about her too, like he does everyone else on here.

This forum is all but come to a stop from what i can see..but how does it help when people like him try to drive out new posters.?

Yabby is a real asset and has a lot of commentary based on Ill 'baffle you with bullsh1t' theory and if that doesnt work..look 'hey look at me , I can do cartwheels too'....

should have read "Ill baffle you with bullsh-t' theory and if that does'nt work he'll throw in a few cartwheels, ' hey look at me'..:)

“It is a well known fact Yabbies make good bait on a hook to feed the fish.” LOL

Looks like farmers make good bait too. Stop wriggling and squirming so much Farmer, he may leave you alone. You are just throwing burley at a circling shark with your lack of knowledge of the live export trade. If you stop taking his comments so personally you may just learn something.

Karma, Farmer, is not something that one can resort to – it is a consequence of our own actions :)

In fact, I believe that those of you that have a problem with Yabby do so because he speaks to a part of your conscience that you try so hard to ignore. I think we need him to give balance to these discussions.

As far as driving out posters … You girls just love it, admit it!

I for one are not happy with the agressive and disrespectful tone towards anybody especially a new farmer on this thread. I started this to discuss alternative to live exports.
There is thirty years plus poof evidence regarding the barbaric cruelty in this trade.
I mean fair crap of the whip PF. You come on the forum first of all dead set against live exports. Yes you did! i have read all your posts.Does that mean you really dont! support AA
You change your mind . Ok but after what?! come on. After sucking up to yabby because your lonely or board or whatever.
So are you so fickle that because somebody types a ship load full of crap over and over again you just beleive them. Are You?
I suggest you are making yourself look like a thirteen year old school girl.
Yabby the farmer is not! Ozgirl. Forgive me Ozgirl if ever you read this but its clear this farmer knows there sheep. I think? I know who these farmers are actually and they are Victorian farmers if I am corect.
Another think PF Nicky farmer Holy Celiva and everybody Yabby is certainly not! a live sheep exporter.
Yabby is somebody who has bugged most people trying to be important[he thinks]. he actually thinks by going on about the cruel trade and searching the net for comments he will impress and win friends in the industry.
Take it from me nothing could be further from the truth. They just want him to shut up about it and stop drawing attention to it actually.
They want to try to get back to how its always been. - Out of site out of mind.
Farmer I can hear you are frustrated but please continue to post and just ignor Yabby.
The rest of us are very interested in your comments and thoughts on alternatives to live animal exports.
Dont go and kick the dog now yabby. Oh but I forgot you dont have one do you.
Lucky dog

“I for one are not happy with the agressive and disrespectful tone towards anybody” Ditto Pale. Talk about aggression and insults!

My comments certainly pricked your conscience and, as usual, you made what you wanted of them and ran with it.

I don’t see how anything I have posted here reflects a change of mind on live exports. On open mind maybe ……

“Sucking up to Yabby because I am bored and lonely” Well, if you call taking the time to listen to someone elses point of view and considering it sucking up, then yes, I must be guilty. Lonely? How do you figure that? As for being bored, impossible! I have you guys to keep me entertained :)

You guys needs a reality check every now and then and that’s exactly what Yabby does in my opinion. Ooops, there I go sucking up again!

As for you though pale, you would crawl right up the RE of anyone that was willing to agree with you.

That shows how much you know about the Live Export Indusrty If you listen to Yabby. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
What I said PF there is no need to be totally rude to everybody who does not agree with him.
A debate is one thing but Yabby cant do that he has to be down right rude to another farmer with different ideas.
So many people have stopped posting because of it for months now..
Not because of the difference in ideas but the personal attacks.
Everybody is stupid according to Yabby including other farmers.
Celivia has stopped posting and she was somebody who was fair and always coming up with ideas of how the improve things for free Range Farmers and Animals. Taryns stopped because of personal insults and now Farmer.
At last and finally people are starting to listen and you will soon see a large team of legal reps addressing not only live exports but intensive farming.
Pity AA didnt listen years ago when we had the x crimes com and some heavy weights ready to act.
Still better late than ever I guess.
PF If you think live exports is fine I guess I should heed my own word of warning.
After all I only had your word for your kindness and love of your animals.
Anybody who would support live exports is certainly not kind- or smart for that matter as it exports our jobs and our kids future.
Yup Yabby we need staff.
No Yabby its no excuse to send them alive.
Only the lowest of the low would do that.
Another thing just for the record = I should think Muslim leaders and RSPCA just to name two might know a lot more than you.

Ever heard of Mr Jim Dywer Yabby? Lets test your knowledge shall we.
I repeat I opended the thread for ideas for alternatives so unless you have some find another way to pass the hours you so clearly have to waiste- because I dont
Antje

PF,
.. talking to farmer..

'if you stop taking his comments so personally ,you may learn something....'

Thats rich, and highly unlikely.

Good evening all
Dear me, since I've been away briefly, things have got a bit over the top, haven't they? Doesn't anyone realize yet that Yabby really doesn't have too many clues about what he's talking about, and seeks to mask that by sending everyone up? I agree, let's all not take stuff so personally. Yabby, hang in there and some day, someone MAY come around to your way of thinking, but it's unlikely on this thread. Your posts do have value, but can be very patronizing upon occasion.
Antje, sincere apologies for not responding sooner. Totally snowed under with work at present, and I am currently writing some involved submissions as well. In order to agree to take on a project of the scale discussed, I think I would really need to see some solid physical evidence from McGauran/the Federal government that they would even look at it. Speaking of sucking up, that is exactly what they (McGauran and his mates) do with LiveCorp and the rest of this morally bankrupt industry. Beats me why - too many politicians are farmers with live export interests, I think, and they have just raised the bar significanrly on the declaration of political donations... do the maths, guys.
Meanwhile; shall we all cool it a little and bring this back to a reasoned debate? Yabby, I shall mind my manners if you will.
Nite all,
Nicky.

Sheesh, I go and get some work done and come back to 6 pages
of comments! HS, I certainly did not forget anything. Any real
commercial farmers would have a weekly copy of the market report.
Mine for Victoria is the Weekly Times, dated 22-11. Its a farming
paper in Victoria, to which I subscribe.

Ok so the truth is slowly coming out. Alleged farmer cannot answer
why somebody would do in $ to fatten sheep for the live trade, when
the carcass trade for those sheep would pay far more. He used to
run merinos, but could not get "a shearer" Ok, so we have ourselves a "hobby farmer" :)

Yup, WH are great for hobby farmers. When they run merinos, the
poor old sheep are often covered in lice, die from flystrike and
they often don't have a clue, nor the facilities to look after them.
Cruelty right under our noses, right here in Australia, on hobby
farms! My point is don't be so arrogant about the ME, look in
some of our own backyards, what human ignorance right here can
do to animals. One of these "new" farmers tried to buy some sheep
from me recently. In his first year, a quarter of his flock had
died of flystrike. I refused to sell him any.

Benny the farmer, I remind you that most animal libber groups are
made up of veggies who dislike meat eaters and who know very little
about farm livestock. Sheep are not like their pet poodles!

If you knew about farming, you would know that most farmers use
sheep cuffs, to tie sheep's legs, chuck them on the ute and cart the
odd one around. Yet city slicker veggies are horrified when this
happens in the ME. Yup, plenty of sheep get their throats cut in
country areas, for meat. No stun guns.

Did you read the link I posted for you, about Cameron Morse's trip
on the Becrux? Are you aware of the changes that were implemented
with the 2005 reforms to exports and standards?

Nicky, interesting that you should go around and measure the length
of sheeps wool, to see if its a bit long, when so many animal welfare
problems exist right here in Australia, right under our noses,
lots of it on hobby farms. A bit pedantic perhaps?

BTW, I hope that you run with my suggestion, as I think it will
make a large difference in the Middle East. To achieve things there,
it pays to use religion.

Bernie the hobby farmer, live sheep ships are floating feedlots, animals gain weight and
conditions are far better then most land based feedlots. Do you
now want to have feedlots banned?

Thousands of WA farmers support the trade, but they rely on more
accurate sources for information, then a bunch of veggies with
the donation plate stretched out.

Thousands of real commercial farmers in WA, who have families to
raise and a real living to make, depend on the live trade.
You are going to need some pretty solid evidence, to take away
their livelyhoods. Nobody has provided that yet. Yes the trade
used to have some cowboys in it and things were bad, the same
applies to brothels and gambling joints in Aus and many other things.
The point is, large changes have been made, the old crapola rehashed
by the veggie groups is exactly that, old and out of date.

Yes I will point out rubbish, when rubbish is posted on OLO, in particular the animal welfare threads, which seem to attract all
sorts of fanatics with their little agenda. That is what OLO is
for after all. Antje, shoot the messenger, I really don't care lol.

Nicky
Thank You For Your Reply.
Yes of course you may have a look. You would be working with some lawyers but I am afraid you would be doing most of the work. [Hence the offer] One of them has family background in plant ownerships. Can you please supply me with a address for them to write to.
Here is the web page with an email address so you can contact us.
I dont want to put Georges private email address up on here>
http://www.livexports.com/

Again Thank You and I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possibly. We require to get this organised after several hold ups due to ill health.
I was wondering Nicky if you would like to take this thread over - just for a week until the other is organised.
I am sure you would be too busy then for a while to post until its finished. As I said you would be most welcome to attend the meetings with us[all travelling and expenses paid of course]

I think I already know your location and your attendance would be welcome. There are some things I can not post here Nicky I trust you understand so please email me.

Yabby
Yes I want feed lots banned. Yup
replaced with Free Range and creek fed only.
Do you know the difference between feed lots and creek fed Yabby.?
No the farmers is not Benny either. The last thing the live exporters want Yabby is you going on a forum being darn right rude to farmers.
Livecourpe and live exporters bend over backwards to 'try be seen'. as the polite concerned like the Government and bagging farmers doesnt come into the deal.
I speak pretty often with some live exporters yabby including the AWB guys.
Some of them read some of your posts after I informed them of my thread and they are absolutly horrified.

I have asked you this question before pale but you refused to answer. Now that you have brought it up again, can you explain 'creek fed' for us?

Hi everyone
People Against Live Exports, I'm hopelessly over-committed already until mid-December. I live in NSW, and I'll give you the address after I've had a look at the web link.
Yabby - I read the fairytale of Cameron Morse's luxury cruise on the "Becrux" (note, not the "Al Kuwait", or the "Bader III"), and his little trip to a sanitized slaughterhouse. Average, as fairytales go, I guess.
I don't think it is being overly pedantic to measure the wool on sheep being loaded, even if I were to do so (it is really not difficult to estimate, in the cases I have seen); the point is that these people cannot even comply with their OWN ALES (Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock) if they cannot a) have their sheep shorn as they are required to be, b) not transport horned and unhorned animals together, c) only load healthy animals, d) keep them in compliant feedlots, and e) use ships with crews who CAN look after live animals (so that incidents like that on the "Maysora" recently do not arise) - the list is endless. The problem is that they are not accountable to anyone, even after two IRG reviews and the Keniry Reciew - from each of which the government and the exporters selected the recommendations they thought they could be bothered compling with.
Feedlots? I agree (on land or on ships). What is wrong with letting these animals, whose miserable lives are short enough as it is, exercise natural behaviours for the short time they have? God knows they suffer enough at the hands of farmers (PF and those like him/her excluded). Yabby, think about it, and go down to Portland or Fremantle and watch some ships being loaded If they let you in - they can't risk just anyone seeing exactly what happens.
Nicky

Antje, PF has asked you before to explain your holy grail of creek
fed, but you never have. Perhaps the cattle industry, with over a
million head in feedlots at anyone time, which you seem to want to
close down, would be highly interested too!

Antje, I have no association with live exporters, farmer groups,
AWB, or any other association you care to mention. But I live in
a community and am surrounded by friends and associates whose families depend on the live trade for their dinner. We are not
just playing Disneyland here, for feelgood solutions, to suit
a few veggies. I will argue my points in a rational way, based on
the evidence. Raise rational points if you have them, but you can't
dig dirt on me, because I am not tied up with anyone, simply
express my opinions, which is what OLO is after all, all about.
So female bitchy ways won't work with me, sorry.

Nicky, lets face it, we could not put you on a boat as an impartial
observer, as you are clearly not impartial! Cameron Morse is an
intelligent journalist, with a good reputation, who reported on the
trip as he saw it. After all the doomy gloomy claims by various
veggie groups, we now have a more impartial person reporting on
what he saw. Are you pissed off that he is not as biased as you are?

I remind you that the sheep industry is in fact a free range industry. Yes, some sheep eventually spend a couple of weeks on
a boat and gain weight. What makes you think that their lives were
so miserable, living freerange on a farm?

Fact is that there are no alternate solutions in WA for these sheep,
no meatworks to handle them, no processors who would pay farmers
a reasonable price for them. They would need to be shot or carted
across Australia for slaughter. Sorry, but that is far worse then
any floating feedlot!

Yes you are being pedantic, you have a bee in your bonnet:) Clearly
you are not aware of much cruelty and misery happening to animals
right here in Aus, take a look around those hobby farms, take a look
at those city slickers locking their neurotic dogs in houses all day,
etc. etc. Sheep on hobby farms, with millions of lice chewing away
at them, day after day, or dying slowly as a million maggots bore
into their flesh and you fuss about a few extra mm of wool on
a shipped live sheep. Are those really your priorities ?

With Antje or Wendy I could invent an excuse, but you seem like
an intelligent lady, just totally out of touch with farm animals.
Perhaps that is your excuse.

If you want to close the live trade, close all feedlots. Then
tell me how far you get.

Nicky
Thank You I will look forward to receiving your address. I need to get the info to you before Georges offices closes for the season.
this must be ready well before elections.

Yabby You know very well we are not Veggie' as you term it. Not that there is a nything wrong with people who do not eat meat.

creek fed is a term used by cattle farmers which can be applied to any stock.

Put in its most simply form it invloved hard feeding only when required but in a far more natural enviroment for the animals.

It is adopted still by co ops supplies.
Later when I have more time I will go into more detail.
Yabby I promise I will get back later.
We have some of your buddies from ME arriving and will be on a very tight shedule Mean time I will leave you in the hands of Nicky
Try to be good.
regards
Antj

"Put in its most simply form it invloved hard feeding only when required but in a far more natural enviroment for the animals.

It is adopted still by co ops supplies"

Maybe you need to put it in even more simpler terms antje, I have no idea what you are talking about. But, if you are not here to explain I will be happy to give my interpretation :)

Hi again all
Yabby, I'm sorry, but you really cannot describe Cameron Morse as "impartial" (not really sure that "intelligent" describes him too well either - "cunning" springs to mind).
He is a farming journo who gets paid to tell farmers what they want to hear - in this instance, he went on a trip on what is probably the only half-decent livestock transporter, and saw one facility where (by his standards) slaughter procedures were "acceptable". Do you think they would have let him see, for example, Bassetin, under normal operations? I don't think so.
As I recall, it was not (for him, at least) a multi-port departure or destination either (as was the case with the recent "Maysora" disaster).
The "cowboys" you described earlier are most certainly still in the industry; two of them are facing charges in February this year over the "Al Kuwait" voyage of 2003, and nothing of significance has changed. The Standards exist, but no-one monitors them, no-one sees the tragedies unless they are simply impossible to hide, and when there is exposure, the right "noises" are made, time and time again, that "we will fix it". The community is still waiting. Mortality reports are well and truly protected by the government. A total of seven have been made public. As for the farmers who depend on this trade to "feed their families", well - shame on them for doing so. While they have done the grab for the bigger dollar, tens of thousands of meat processors have lost the opportunity of income to feed THEIR families, as abattoirs have shut down, along with the regional towns they supported (I can name several in NSW, just foe starters). Farmers crying poor doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid,
BTW, eating vegetables and choosing not to eat meat has never been proven to affect mental acuity either, so be less hasty to accuse us (that is, everyone who doesn't agree with you)of being "unbalanced".You have actually attested to that yourself - thank you. Animal cruelty in this country? Absolutely right.
Nite all,
Nicky

Nicky, Cameron is certainly impartial compared to you lol. Read his
paper, plenty of questioning and criticism goes on, as it should it any
professional paper. It was about time that somebody showed that there
are quite good boats out there, with reasonable meatworks at the other
end, not all just doom and gloom claimed by animal libbers.

Plenty of vets, AQIS inspectors etc involved in the whole process
too. How does loading at Fremantle differ from loading at any saleyard?
You girls just seem to have a bee in your bonnet about live exports!
Exporters are in fact very nervous about what they do, with another
animal libber camera around every corner, watching every move they
make, even measuring their wool! Sounds like obsessed to me!

How many jobs were lost in NSW? 75% of the 4 million sheep exported
come from WA. That leaves a million from NSW, Vic, SA, mostly
from the latter two. It takes 400 people to process a million sheep.
Did NSW lose 100? Perhaps less. Fact is the sheep industry has massively
reduced in the last 20 years, because farmers were going broke running
them, due to being paid little more then fertiliser prices for things like
mutton etc. Union greed in the meat industry played its share in the
industry’s demise. Sensible farmers switched to crops, where what they
produce can largely bypass greedy city slickers.

All these claims about jobs, made by people who often drive imported
cars, wear imported clothing etc. A little hypocritical don’t you think?

Mortality results for every shipment are kept. 1% is quite reasonable,
as anyone who has worked with sheep would know. Have you ever
worked with sheep Nicky? Have you spent a few days in the yards,
to understand how their behaviour varies to those of your dogs?
Yes, there will be some losses, as the merino in particular missed
out when brains were handed out, that is half the problem.

Yabby,

It is pretty clear that your 'wealth of knowledge' hails from a quick Google before presenting a post..the very least you can do is source your information.Cut and post a link takes 2 seconds.

I hope Farmer continues to post, gone a bit quite...

It was clear his/her information was gained during the course of actually living the life..

Unlike some.

And just what is your contribution to this thread holyshadow?

Nothing ....

"It is pretty clear that your 'wealth of knowledge' hails from a quick Google before presenting a post..the very least you can do is source your information.Cut and post a link takes 2 seconds."

Actually not so holyshadow, some of the facts and figures that
I know, come from being a farmer and knowing what happens to
my product after it leaves the farm gate, on its way to the
consumer, as any good producer should.

But in this case I was addressing Nicky, who unlike you, has
read various reports where some of these facts and figures are
quoted. Some of the links have previously been posted, you clearly
did not bother to read them.

Rather then me having to do a google search in case you might want
a link, perhaps you could take 2 seconds to go googling yourself
and if you still want an answer to a particular fact or figure,
you are free to ask

What is my contribution to a subject that has been flogged to death..nothing..just as you say PF.

How many times is it possible to cover the same tired old ground before the eyes start to glaze over?

It seems any new contributor is chased away and made to feel unwelcome, in which case those who do that,do a diservice to the overall health of this forum and I think that inexcuseable.

Yabby,

I notice you only hang out in threads with the same bunch of women.

Kind of belies the fact that you just dont cut it in political threads where logic,knowledge, and political acumen are required.

Your male peers intimidate you somewhat?

Better to stick with the women eh?

You obviously believe they make you look smart.

Yabby,

It would seem that your only purpose on any of these threads to do with animal welfare/exports ,is to discredit the ideas and assertions instead of other posters.
Rather than have original and new ideas, you wait for someone to post, then pick it to bits.

I think the overall majority of other posters would agree with that assertion.

Having to deal with you on a daily basis has obviously driven constructive posters to find somenthing more worthwhile to do than argue irrelevant points in circles and have to deal with accusations of being called frauds.Well done.

We only have your word to take that you even have a farm right?:)

How are any of us to know any different?

mmmm food for thought, the 'farmer' who accuses so many others of being frauds having to qualify HIS credentials and credibility.We should require more of you eh?

From some of the stuff Ive read, it would seem not.

My my holyshadow, may I suggest that after today's posts, you try
getting out of the other side of the bed tomorrow, clearly you
got it wrong this morning :)

I remind you that whilst for you the OLO animal threads might be
a bit of light entertainment to relieve your boredom,for me
its a serious political issue. If animal libbers had their way,
it could seriously wreck the community that I live in, the lives
of thousands, many who could have their income halved. If people
were posting falsehoods about something that could halve your
income and that of your friends and community, how would you react?

Quite frankly I don't post here to entertain holyshadow, but because
I believe there has been far too much nonsense promoted by various
veggie groups, whose real aim is that we all stop animal
farming and eating meat. These people seem pretty obsessed by their
agenda.

You haven't done your homework. I have been posting on the slippery
slope thread virtually every day. But its about philosophy, which
could well be above your head. Note that only yesterday, I congratulated
a female poster on her excellent posts, so there goes
your female theory :) Yup, usually I only post on 2-3 threads at
a time, there are other things here that need doing. A few minutes
a day on OLO is enough for my purposes.

Nobody is made to feel unwelcome on OLO. But the fact is that
if people post rubbish, the whole purpose of free debate is to
point out that its rubbish and why. If you have points to make
that discredit my arguments, you are free to make them. Sorry,
but I'm not into the bitch sessions about people, I'd rather
stick to the facts.

Hi Yabby
Post 1: Here is a bit of an example of how "nervous" these people are about what they do (text of a complaint which has been sent to the Minister and to AQIS by a group who shall remain nameless):-

"We refer to the Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock (Version 2), current from September 2006. We are informed by AQIS that these standards are mandatory.

We draw attention in particular to Standard 1 – the sourcing and on-farm preparation of livestock, and refer to part 1.5A:-

“Bos taurus cattle bred in an area of Australia south of latitude 26 degrees south must not be sourced for export to the Middle East from May to October unless an agreed livestock heat stress risk
assessment indicates that the risk is manageable. [less than a 2% risk of 5% mortality]

We have attached photographs of calves from that particular shipment in the Ztofar Quarantine Facility in Israel. It is clear from these photographs that, although there are some Bos Indicus calves amongst the ill, the majority of these animals, particularly amongst those in the pit of the dead, are of the Bos Taurus type. Please note also the ear tags, or remains of them, clearly indicate that these are Australian animals. We would like to know how many of the Bos Taurus type were included in this shipment and at which port they were loaded.

Given that latitude 26 degrees south crosses Western Australia somewhere close to Geraldton, we are particularly seeking information about the region/s from which the Bos Taurus calves were sourced, in the context of the above section of the ALES Version 2. The “Maysora” loaded in Portland on October 2 and 3, “topping up” in Fremantle and finally leaving Australia on October 18. It unloaded first in Aqaba in Jordan, then Eilat in Israel on November 3 and 4 before proceeding to Egypt".

That's all that can fit here. It is only a part of the complaint, but it would appear certain preocedures can be substantiated (heat stress assessment), these animals were loaded illegally.
Nicky

Hi again all,
Yabby, you seem to be intent on patronizing everyone who does not agree with you. Everyone knows how many meat employees' jobs and income have been lost through live exports and the greed of farmers, but you don't want to hear about it as long as you and your cohorts are making a fast buck.
You regard Cameron Morse and his farmers' rag "Countryman" as intelligent because he and it follow your line of thinking. The notion that farmers support the country'e economy is simply absurd when it accounts for only 3% of GDP - yet they cost the taxpayer - who has no choice in the matter - huge amounts in handouts while they cry poor at every opportunity. You are just fortunate that so many politicians are farmers. The number of lost jobs specific to NSW is irrelevant, it is the lost jobs - and therefore skills base - nationwide that matters. And you mustn't have been reading up on the new IR laws very well; the government couldn't have made things worse for the average worker than they are right now.
It is the fault of the farmers - people like you who send the jobs overseas - that the meat processing industry lacks capacity, so don't cry crocodile tears over it now, it's too much too late.
Am I the female contributor to whom you gave credit? Talk about damned with faint praise! I don't drive an imported car, either. I drive a "made in Australia" one.
Nite all (and hang in there, holyshadow!)
Nicky

I am hearing a lot of anti farmer sentiment on these welfare threads.

I get the feeling that no matter what we do, until all animal farming is stopped and we stop 'crying poor mouth' you wont be happy anyway. That sort of attitude just builds barriers.

Nicky "hang in there holyshadow" what ?? ... Is that the sort of poster you would prefer to have on this thread? Have they actually contributed anything but spiteful comments?

Pale - you are posting on another thread, why wont you explain your 'creek fed' system to us? Or is it another example of the solutions you lot come up with - no real substance.

Nicky “everyone knows” is not an answer lol. I simply pointed out the myth
of your claim. Fact is that the sheep industry shrunk by 40%, because it
could not earn people a living, so they did something else. Don’t blame
job losses in NSW on the live trade, when its in fact a myth.

“Fast buck” in farming? Nicky do you know anything at all about farming? :)

Here is a website, created especially for people like you, to inform them
a little better: http://www.liveexportcare.com/index.html

You might not care about farmers, but many people do in fact care about
The 1.8 billion $ and 13’000 jobs that the live trade generates.

The average worker is on record wages right now Nicky, they have never
had it so good, unlike the average farmer.

The meat industry in WA lacks capacity, as it was never there in the first
place. The Govt only lifted its monopoly on lamb exports in 2000. Fact is
that even now, when WA farmers sell sheep for local processing, they
receive substantially less then ES farmers. Making a living to feed your
family is not greed Nicky. Fact is, if city slickers are so hopeless in what
they do, that they cannot pay us anything close to world prices for
our livestock, the best thing we can do is put them on a boat and sail
them out of here. Farmers deserve to make a living too.

BTW, in WA we tend to paddle our own canoe. Drought aid is mostly
paid to NSW etc, not WA, so you can leave WA out of that debate.

Yes there was a problem with 2% or so of the cattle sent to Israel, yes
its being investigated, as it should and as is the process.

No credit to you Nicky, sorry, it was on the slippery slope thread.

I have to agree with Yabby's last post. NO, I am not pro live export but what he is saying is plain fact.

I live in the New England, reknowned sheep farming area but more and more farmers are giving up on sheep and converting to cattle simply because they cant make a living out of it, nothing to do with live exports. Ewes are worth 5 - 10 dollars at the moment at the saleyards for the domestic market even here. Who made the comment about 'shame for the sake of an extra $20'? Looks a little different when you put it in perspective. Be honest .. what would you accept if it meant your income? $5 or $25 per head? Or would you dare accept the 'hand outs' you all condemn so loudly?

People are prepared to pay twice as much for their 'latte' than a lamb chop. We have this mentality that our food should be cheap. Pay the farmer what he deserves and things may be a little different. Yabby is right - greed has nothing to do with it, just making a meager living in most cases.

Another issue that gets up my nose is the lack of thought to the welfare of farm animals in this country. How easy would it be for animal welfare groups to monitor problems on their own doorstep and once again, put things in perspective. Horrendous things happen here at saleyards and the like. I have called the RSPCA myself because I witnesses an atrocious act of cruelty to a bobby calve. They did nothing. I was prepared to stand up in court and give my account.

I am definately not saying that this makes what happens on ships OK, I would like to see some balance in your arguements instead of making out that everything will be all comfy and cosey for animals if they stay in this country instead of being exported. Australians are no saints either when it comes to animal welfare.

Hi all
I have absolutely nothing against people - anyone - making a decent living, but as I have said before - and it's a point that Yabby keeps running away from - other businesses in this country have to be competitive in their environments without handouts and within certain constraints of moral decency. That excludes live export farmers immediately.
Yabby, have you read the Hassall and Associates report from which you quote the 13,000 jobs? Are you aware that the ex-chair of LiveCorp, Peter Frawley, is still a director of H&A? Therefore their impartiality - not to mention credibility - are in immediate question.The last report they did was creative and this one merely builds upon that.Last time it was found that the 9,000 jobs figure was in fact closer to 3,000, since most of the jobs referred to would continue to exist without the export factor. The new report claims that the "live export industry supports (amongst other similarly outlandish claims) the insurance and banking industries". For God's sake!
PF, I absolutely agree with you about cruelty here, and I monitor a saleyard not far from where I live every week, filming breaches of CoPs and often blatant cruelty. Like you, I have difficulty in getting the RSPCA to act. The police also have powers under animal welfare legislation, as do officers from the department/s of agriculture in each state, I think you'll find.
Some of the transports I have seen have been atrocious, and animals can be left without food or water in saleyards until someone bothers to pick them up. The justice system is a joke when it comes to farm animals.
That's it for now...
Nicky.

I’m not running away from any point Nicky, but I don’t agree with your moral
decency comment, that is simply your opinion. Fact is that I think that sheep
going on a boat are far better off then those put on a truck and carted across
Australia. To me a floating feedlot is not an issue, if conditions are such that
animals have food, water, shelter etc, better then most feedlots anywhere in
the world.

I don’t have a problem with the Hassal report. I don’t care who wrote it,
main thing is the figures. If you claim they are flawed, show where they
are flawed. If a farmer sells 1000 wethers and receives 60K in his account
rather then 15K, don’t you think that even his bank and community will
benefit?

Hassal shows that a live sheep is worth something like 74$ to Australia,
which is far more then a carcass. The problem is, meat processors are
intent on sending each other broke, so outdiscount one another downwards
in price, to steal each others markets. That doesen’t happen in the live trade.
The big losers with all that discounting are in fact the farmers, who ultimately
pay.

Points from the piggy thread: No waving of AQIS fees, sorry. AQIS
charge for services rendered, by the hour. The Govt dropped its charges
for all clients by 40% some years ago. A live sheep does not need an
AQIS vet opening up the carcass, to check for ovis etc.

Yes, economies of scale is what I meant to say, you are correct.

State Govts contribute nothing. Payroll tax is paid by companies with
more then a certain labour bill. State Govts are free to wipe the tax
on exporters, but they don’t. State Govts have fees and charges on
all sorts of other things.

If costs are so high in WA that farmers can’t make a living, what they
really should do is buy their own boats and ship the whole lot to
Indonesia for processing, its closer then Sydney or Melbourne.

Hi Yabby

Extract from The West April 17 2004 (direct quote):-
"In August 2001, the Federal Government made a contribution to the live animal export program equivalent to 40 per cent of Australian Quarantine Inspection Service fees for live animal exports," the report says.
"The net effect has been to reduce charges to the live export sector by about 40 per cent while maintaining AQIS policy that fees be set on a 100 per cent cost recovery basis. Since the introduction of this subsidy, it is estimated that inspection charges for all animal live exports from WA have been subsidised by an annual amount of $400,000.
"By contrast, the larger abattoirs in WA each pay more than $400,000 per annum for AQIS meat inspection services."
That seems like a very neat little bit of cross-subsidisation"
__________________________________

This was about the findings of the Lindner Report, which contained some similar findings to the Heilbron/Larkins Report.

Professor Lindner and Drs Heilbron and Larkins have substantially less conflict of interest and are leading agricultural economists, My money is on their findings rather than those of Frawley and Co. who have their own obvious reasons for their creative accounting. I explained earlier why they are claptrap but you clearly don't want to know. Lindner, Heilbron and Larkins also looked at lost GDP, lost household income and the fragmentation of rural and regional communities where meat processing was the only, or the major empoyer.

Floating feedlots? Shelter? Have you seen the "Al Shuwaikh", the "Al Kuwait", "Maysora", and those other "open decked" monstrosities on which the sea spray and the dust from the cheap feed pellets (the industry itself explained away excessive mortalities on 4 voyages earlier in the year on poor quality feed) blind the sheep? They are crammed in so that many cannot get to feed and water (hence some of the "inanition" - gotta love the euphemism) ...

Yabby, be less quick to accuse me of partiality until you have read ALL the reports - including mortality reports - at www.liveexportshame.com. all conveniently at the one site.
Nite nite
Nicky

Nicky, in 2001 I was actually a customer of AQIS, so received detailed
reports about how they calculated their charges. My comments are based
on that information, not on newspaper reports. You are free to ring AQIS
and ask them. One of the problems that AQIS has is headoffice costs, for
many costs are political, ie EU trade barriers etc, not economic. It seems
to me that the Govt decided to wear the political costs and pass on the
direct economic costs of services provided. Fair enough.

So nope, there is no cross subsidisation, simply fees for services provided.

I clearly do want to know any accurate information, just not invalid
claims. Point out the faults in the data and I will listen. Just this August,
live shippers bought a very limited amount of pregnancy tested ewes in
my very community, for 50$ a head. Meantime buyers of a major
processor were buying the same ewes, not pregnancy tested, for 15-16$
a head. They both knew we had to sell, due to no rain. If you had a family
to feed, who would you sell to?

If there are live ships not up to standard, fine, scrap them. T he point
is there are also ships that are pretty good, like the Becrux. Lots of
major upgrades are happening right now, to bring ships up to standard.
That’s all good news! Far better then any truck and far better then most
feedlots.

Space per sheep was decided by qualified vets. Do you know more
about sheep welfare then qualified vets?

Every other industry in Australia, when local costs become uncompetitive,
moves offshore. Note that even the bolts holding you Aussie car together,
could well be Chinese soon. The bank you bank with, is using Indian
call centres etc. Now you want to crucify farmers, because we want to
move our processing offshore? Ship the lot to Indonesia I say, if
the State Govt does not give figjam about our industry or our welfare.

As you point out, we are in business, we need to make business decisions.

Hey Yabby
Decent ships ... there is the "Becrux" and ?? Can you name one or two more? The qualified vets who determine the space requirements for the sheep are really not doing it very well, if I may say so, when over 35,000 died on the ships in one year, and the mortality rates actually ROSE from 2004 to 2005 (28,000+ to 35,000+). The stats are on the DAFF website.
The journo in "The West" was quoting from Professor Lindner's report - and I have told you where you can find that and read it. Forgive me if I trust his maths/economics more than I do yours. If the full Heilbron report is not there, I think a summary document is - or I can paste it in here if you can't find it.
I do not bank with an organization which has moved its call centre to India, or anywhere else outside Australia for that specific reason - nor do I use a telco which has done it. I don't thnk any parts of my car were made in China, but I shall be sure to find out.
Nite nite
Nicky

What percentage of the australia sheep flock die right here? In feed lots, flystrike, barbers pole, drought etc etc. They are an animal with a very high mortality rate. If you checked it out, you might find that the death rate is lower on ships than in the paddock, wouldnt that be interesting ....

Nicky I dont have figures on how many farms use stalls etc. APL probably does, but they are not very forthcoming. They seem to be hanging to the use of crates at all costs and unsupportive of any alternative methods. Their standard responses are getting very tiresome.
This is a favourite:

The organisation's spokesman, John Lamont, yesterday described Voiceless as an extremist group lacking even rudimentary knowledge of proper animal welfare practice.

"Groups such as these prey upon the ignorance of city kids with no real connection to the land, filling their heads with nonsense," he said.

"These groups claim to stand for animal welfare, but advocate farming practices which would result in horrendously cruel outcomes."

I am forced to be a paid member of APL and their stand regarding free range is pretty clear although they will say they are impartial. I wonder if he actually believes that statement?

Nicky, one of the hardest things to explain to non sheep people like yourself,
is the nature of sheep and why they die when they do. PF is correct, they
are a high mortality species, you just about need to go farming for a while
to really understand it. Yes deaths increased as more sheep were shipped,
around 4 million. In that context 35’000 is quite acceptable. On farms
around 5% is considered normal, so that would be 5 million deaths a year.

Regarding decent ships, I remind you that in 2007 all of them will have to
be decent enough to pass the AMSA standards. Perhaps you don’t understand
the effect that Siba Ships, with their whole new philosophy, is having on
the industry. Siba recently took over the Deneb and next launched will be
the Castor. I’d say that they will become by far the biggest operator, as
a number of Arab operators have bailed out.

Regarding how AQIS charge, I don’t need a journalist to quote an academic,
I simply ask AQIS. As a fee for service operator, well of course meatworks
would have higher bills, as they need to use their services more, to comply
with international standards. Duh.

I drive a Holden 4wd made in Thailand, have a Nokia phone made in China.
Open your eyes, look around you, it’s a global economy, wether we like it
or not.

Fact is that if we farmers don’t stick up for ourselves, we get trampled by
local monopolies. The live trade to some extent protects us from locals
whom it seems would prefer to buy our sheep for nearly nothing, rather
then pay us a fair price. Farmers are right down the bottom of the chain,
we are price takers, after everyone else has had their snouts in the trough.
If we owned our own ships (decent of course) we could sail past the
lot of them

Hello all
Firstly, to PF - have you any clues about what these chemicals might be?

"The Australian Quarantine Inspection Service (AQIS) supports changes to the Export Slaughter Intervals (ESI) levels for veterinary treatments that have the active ingredients Dimetridazol, Olaquindox and Florfenicol".

Why are you forced to be a paid member of APL? Would it be worth forming a breakway group specializing in free-range pig farming (then you could have a website refuting this claptrap from APL). They really are nutters, aren't they? AA and Voiceless are noted for their moderation; neither takes part in what is usually described as "activism".

To Yabby and sheep ... may I suggest that if 5% mortality on a farm is considered "normal", one of several things must be happening here. Firstly, the farmers are not very good at what they do (no wonder we have to throw them so many handouts!); secondly, they are greedy and have far more animals than they can properly care for (since they are almost all mulesed, what sort of flystrike death rates are we talking about here?), thirdly, perhaps they just don't bother looking after them at all (mules 'em all, and hope for the best in the short time between birth and slaughter/live export).

The "Deben Prima" story will probably gladden some hearts; not mine. It is still the old "Rodolfo Mata" which was still the old "Ming Universe". You can't re-badge them forever and claim them to be the next "great new thing". Regarding compliance, I think you'll find that beyond insisting on secondary/back-up ventilation systems (for when they keep breaking down), AMSA is walking away from any aspect of animal welfare, that is to be handed to AQIS - which knows nothing about ships, just as AMSA knows nothing about animals (straight from AMSA official). AMSA expects expects the old and disastrous "Bader III" to be within compliance limits, which gives me little hope that there is to be any substantial improvement.
BTW - what is the barber's pole? Yabby,shame on you - a Holden Rodeo? 10/10 for inconsistency as usual.
Cya
Nicky

Nicky, the list of diseases that can affect sheep is as long as your arm. If you
are really keen to educate yourself enough to comment, why don’t you buy a book
on sheep diseases and inform yourself. I recently had a few girls go skinny and
had a vet do an autopsy (at huge expense I might add). It turned out to be
pneumonia, various types of which can affect sheep, yes, even those living
in their natural environment, out in the paddocks, free range.

Mulesing cuts flystrike dramatically, but they can still get body strike.

Regards upgrading old ships, I remind you that Jamie Packer’s luxury yacht
used to be an old ice breaker! Main thing with Siba, they have a quite different
philosophy then some of the other companies, so the changes are welcome.

I remind you that it is not beyond AQIS and AMSA to work together in coming
up with standards under DAFF.

http://www.daff.gov.au/livestockexportstandards

Given your comments and given your lack of knowledge, what are you doing commenting about sheep ? :)

Of course you are negative. As a vegetarian who doesent seem to have much
time for farmers, I didn’t expect anything else! That’s why we need more
impartial and better informed people then yourself to pass judgement on the
industry, like vets who know something about farm livestock.

What do you have against Holden Rodeo. Why am I inconsistent? Which
Aussie made 4wd do you recommend ? :)

nicky - they are all antibiotics. Intensively farmed pigs are fed them right up until the withholding period. Interesting that they have extended the ESI to 28 days but its alright for domestic consumption within 12 days.

Antibiotics have a dual purpose - to fend off disease that is rampant in intensive farming and also to act as a growth promotant.

Barbers Pole is a worm. One of the biggest killers of sheep and resistance to medications is very high. It literally sucks the life out of them. You are very wrong with your comments about flystrike. It can strike within days in the most cared for flock. Farmers spend a fortune on preventative measures.

Hi PF and Yabby
I recognize that I don't know a whole lot about sheep, guys, but I do know cruelty when I see it, and that is my argument here, not sheep per se. Dare I suggest that if sheep mortalities on-farm are so high, and they are so prone to diseases (and flystrike, in spite of the mutilations), and they and other cloven hooved animals are exotic to Australia and they and intensive farming operations generally are largely responsible for a great deal of land degradation and soil erosion, that perhaps they are not the animals who shouod be farmed here at all? Climate change is only going to exacerbate all that, too (I know - that is positively HEATHEN!).
Yabby, nothing at all against Holden Rodeos, nor indeed anything in particular against a global economy, I just prefer to support Australian products where there is a choice. The only context in which I oppose your notion of "global economy" is when it involves taking living, feeling, suffering and defenceless animals, loading them on crappy old sbips (with all due respect to the "Becrux" and Siba Ships propaganda notwithstanding) and sending them into the hands of savages to be butchered after a torturous journey.
PF, as always, thanks for the info.
Sleep on it!
Nite nite,
Nicky

Nicky, yup I read all the so called evil things that us people who farm pigs,
cattle, sheep etc, plus eat their meat, are meant to be doing, there are some
valid points, some invalid. At least I am more objective then you :)

Based on the logic of your argument, we could then say that Europeans
are exotic to Australia and the most damaging of all to the environment,
so what are you doing here ? :)

We don’t farm kangaroos due to the Skippy factor. Soil erosion and
environmental damage are more due to stocking rates then anything,
Fact is we are developing methods to combat those. Cultivation of soil
has in fact been one of the largest contributors to soil erosion.

You forget that most cattle and sheep are not intensively farmed but
extensively farmed here. If there were no sheep grazing on my place
for instance, the whole lot would simply go up in a fireball every
year, with the next lightning strike.

You say you know cruelty when you see it, but I have seen so many
animal libbers get their knickers in a twist, due to pure ignorance
about the subject. Can’t you at least employ SOME qualified and
experienced people?

Yes there were some crappy old ships, now we are getting nice new
ships! The Castor looks pretty flash, her twin should be the same.

So your “torturous” comment is perhaps simply biased melodrama.

Your ‘savages” comment is a bit of neat stereotyping, both Aus
and the ME contain some really nice people and some savages.

If things need changing and upgrading in the ME, lets play a part
in making that happen. SA imports about 10 million sheep a year.
They are unlikely to hear about handling them in more animal
friendly ways from Sudan, Ethiopia, Turkey, China, or other
supplier countries. We can really play a positive role there.

I gave you one idea of achieving change very cost effectively.
Religion is the button to push, if you want change in the ME.

Hey Yabby
I'll just send this little insight to you for now:-

29 November 2006 - Cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in CO2 equivalent, than transportation, and smarter production methods, including improved animal diets to reduce enteric fermentation and consequent methane emissions, are urgently needed, according to a new United Nations report released today.

"Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems," senior UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) official Henning Steinfeld said. "Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

Cattle-rearing is also a major source of land and water degradation,
according to the FAO report, Livestock's Long Shadow-Environmental Issues and Options, of which Mr. Steinfeld is the senior author".

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20772&Cr=global&Cr1=environment

Not farming kangaroos because of the "Skippy factor" is what we "animal libbers" describe as "speciesism" - like why are some animals fortunate enough to be under the table (dogs/cats) and others on it on plates? RSPCA Australia recently told a caller that it has no objection to the frming of dogs and cats for food "provided it is done humanely". The caller rang about Australia exporting greyhounds to Korea.

For the record, we "animal libbers" do not really regard the RSPCA as much of an "animal welfare" organization. It's too easy to put a few statements on a website, then basically ignore them.

Nicky

Nicky, I remind you that herbivores have been farting on this planet
for a long time :) Its us humans that have grown from 1.5 billion
to 6.5 billion in a hundred years. Coal, our major problem, does
not power vehicles usually.

Herbivores have been on plates for eons, its part of natures way.
If they wern't they would die of starvation, as has been shown in
island experiments. Dogs and cats are predator species, just like
we are, so have larger brains, they need them. Herbivores don't.

So your little poochy poo dimkins, is actually related to wolves!
No wonder given half a chance, little poochy poo turns into a
livestock killer, much to the surprise of the owners.

I know you don't like the RSPCA, but I still think they do alot
of good. You animal libbers are like the fundies, all arguing
amongst each other about which version of the holy prophesy is
really the correct one

I think that you cannot deny, that if somebody like me labels
somebody like you extremist, because of your inability to be a little
more objective, that is not unreasonable of me

Hey Yabby
I think you would find that the indigenous Australians would certanly describe those of European heritage as "toxic to the environment". The article in fact IS a litle to do with stocking densities as you have said. Feedlots, and other intensive methods (like the "shedded sheep" - those who sre kept in sheds for "superfine wool", a bit like intensive piggeries) are obviously significantly responsible for the degradation and other environmental issues we are (or more to the point, should be) dealing with sooner rather than later. It's about the "footprint" we are leaving on the planet for our children and their children to have to deal with (although the next step would be to take over another planet and trash that as well).
The human species, using such (intensive) methods, do so with a greed motive - cram as many animals into these "farms" as possible, in as unnatural conditions as possible, just to get the extra last dollar out of them. Saleyards and feedlots I have seen are atrocities, and if you put dogs and cats into those conditions, you might get a bit of a slap on the wrist.
But these are sheep, cattle and pigs, and there are CoPs, so they really don't matter.
Even if the Deben Prima and whatever its stablemate is to be are the QEII re-incarnated, the animals sent on them will still face appalling cruelty in destination countries. As for Australia making a difference to animal welfare in these countries, film footage was exposed in 2001, 2003 and 2006 showing clearly that they are not having much success at it. That's one of the industry's more fatuous arguments it drags out each time it comes under pressure.
I imagine that anyone who doesn't agree with YOUR extreme point of view WOULD, in your estimation, be an extremist.
You should read about the "Five Freedoms" developed by the Brambell Committee in the UK - it's at the RSPCA national website.
Nite nite,
Nicky

Superfine wool is not grown in sheds Nicky - Sharlee, coated, ultrafine wool is. Whatever, it is another example of what us humans will do to animals when we discover that we can manipulate their diet and living conditions to produce a product of higher value (or sometimes in the wool industry - just for the prestige)

I do agree with you that intensive farming is based on greed and in my opinion lazy farming.

There is way way more to land degradation than grazing animals. We actually need animals in the mix to keep the eco system going. Over cultivation of the land, land clearing, the advent of chemical farming and mono cropping are to blame for the problems we see today. Thats just a simplified version, but there is so much more involved. The point? You cant blame animal farming for all those problems, you have to understand the much bigger picture.

I will venture to add that even without animal farming, it wouldnt change. They would still use the same systems to grow your vegies :) Actually, I wonder how vegetarians will survive as we discover more about NPK farming, GM foods, new pesticides. The fruit and vegetables we eat these days have around half the nutrition that it did 50 or so years ago. And toxic residues? Dont worry! they are within the acceptable limits (does anyone know what that is?)

Nicky, given that you won’t even apply the five freedoms to farmers,
clearly you don’t practise what you preach lol

Now look at those five freedoms and Aussie extensive farming comes
closer to fulfilling them then farming nearly anywhere else!

I happen to agree with you about sheep in sheds, but we have 100 million
sheep in this country. How many handfuls of them live in those sheds?

Saying that all feedlots are bad is nonsense. In times of drought,
its better for the animals and better for environment, to have animals
in feedlots. BTW cattle and sheep don’t spend their lives in feedlots,
they simply spend a short time there, big difference!

Nicky sheep are not dogs or cats. Don’t try and compare them.
Go and get some real experience working with sheep, then you will
understand the difference.

Australia is making a difference in the ME, I gather its around
3 million a year, payed by farmers. What are you doing to change
things there?

The point is we farmers will never fulfil the fantasies of those lettuce
leaf chomping dreamers, who believe that life is all about tippytoeing
through the tulips, with butterflies fluttering by.

Human footprints? Yup, that’s the problem. 80 million a year more
on the planet. If the Aussie population was wiped out tomorrow,
it would be replaced in 90 days. 7 million new cars on China’s
roads each year, another power station opening every 10 days or so. People
roaring around in Lear Jets and Ferraris. Cities with huge industrial
complexes pumping out every conceivable piece of rubbish you
could dream of.

So what does Nicky do? She starts preaching to a bunch of Aussie
farmers, about a subject like sheep, about which she seemingly knows
nothing. Perhaps you need a bit of meat in your diet to get that
brain functioning properly :)

"We actually need animals in the mix to keep the eco system going. Over cultivation of the land, land clearing, the advent of chemical farming and mono cropping are to blame for the problems we see today."

Very good point indeed PF! Outsiders often don't realise how the
Aussie pasture-crop rotation works with nature, rather then
against her. Natural animal poo as fertiliser, rather then the
bagged stuff, nitrogen from legumes rather then factories and oil,
break in disease cycles etc.

Perhaps Nicky would prefer all crops. The result would be one
amazing chemical soup. Herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, some
crops in Europe are sprayed 10-15 times during their growth.

Next thing you have herbicide resistance, so you need more other
herbicides and GM to deal with that, on one amazing slippery slope.

Perhaps that is what Nicky really dreams about as the best system :)

As she points out, those naughty herbivores belching and farting
are really the evil ones on this planet.

Exuse me. I just thought I would point out the thread is titled alternatives to live exports. Anybody reading this thread from start to finish would say- Well everybody is correct in different ways. Yabby and PF are correct about some things and Nicky is correct about somethings as well.
That is why it is so important for everybody to 'work together'. Now we have farmers RSPCA reps vets [even live importers and exporters, lawyers and abattoir owners all waiting to put their two bobs worth in to assist with this report.
We are just short now of the person who was going to compile it.
That is why I came in the OLO and offered five thousand dollars.
When it comes to intensive farming or live exports it all boils down to one thing.- More return for the farmers.

I wont call intensive product producing farming because its not. That would be a insult to the good farmers out there.

There are no free range pork farmers other than PF and a handfull of others.

There is no ;point telling people to only buy free range when there is none. Yabby is correct about that.

If people in the Middle East and other parts of the world actually have interests in free range farms in Australia and abattoirs in Australia they wont want to buy live animals .

Why! does everybody leave Labour alone/ I really dont get it.
Yabbys correct about the staff for plants as well.

Everybody has something to offer and something they do well.

Nicky I can only assume you have ignored the message from George I left on the babe thread for you because you are unable to assist.

I am not sure if I can post before Christmass but if not 'Merry 'Christmass to all
Antje

Hi all
I'm very sorry for the slow response, I've been away on a project for a few days and haven't had a chance to look at everything. Yabby - put it down to having had a few hours sleep making me sentimental, but is there something wrong with dreaming of how things SHOULD be for animals? I have to reiterate as well - one doesn't have to know a whole lot about sheep (or any animal for that matter) to recognize cruelty when one sees it. I didn't compare sheep with dogs or cats either, merely the different legislative protection that dogs and cats get compared to "production" animals. As I have said before, the CoPs are simply the mechanisms by which farmers are able to continually breach animal welfare laws across the country (would you 'mules' your dog?). PF, thank you for clearing up the 'shedded sheep' issue, you are absolutely correct, of course.
Antje, I'm afraid I haven't been to the Babe thread either, so I haven't yet got to the message. As I told you, my commitment load is extreme at present. Sorry!
As for the farming of crops only - it is not rocket science understanding that animals have their places in eco-systems. That doesn't mean that they should be farmed under intensive conditions in any circumstances (and I acknowledge that many sheep and cattle are farmed 'extensively'; the feedlot issue notwithstanding, feedlots are simply another manifestation of greed, since they are purely to get animals big enough and fat enough quicker for slaughter at a younger age).
And do we not have laws about GFM crops, levels of pesticides, etc?
Bye for now,
Nicky

Nicky, you are free to dream all you want! My point is that if your dreams get
carried away into political discussions, where thousands of peoples lives could
be destroyed, its not unreasonable for some of us to point out the flaws in
your dreams. Reality does not go away, when we close our eyes and wish it
would!

You are correct, any old fool can pass naïve judgement, that does not mean
it’s a wise judgement, just judgement from the point of ignorance. It really
would be nice if the animal libber movement hired a few more qualified
people, before they sprout off their often naïve opinions.

In fact over the weekend I had a bit of a look and read of the AA website.
Lots of warm, fuzzy dreamer stuff there, lots of contradictions in their
manifesto too, IMHO. But that’s another long story. What I did see
was a picture of a kid snuggling up to a pig, Babe all over again!

I remind you of reality, pigs are killers when it suits them, so perhaps
AA are being a bit irresponsible there.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20843033-1702,00.html

Dogs don’t need mulesing Nicky, they don’t grow wool. You clearly
have never seen 1 million maggots eating a sheep alive. Fact is, if
Peta had had their way, there would now be far more suffering in
sheep land. All emotion and no reason is dangerous, especially in
the hands of fanatical animal libbers. What makes you feel good
is not always the best outcome for the animals you claim to care about.

Why are feedlots always about greed Nicky? Tell me the difference
between making a living and greed. Are you greedy because you
would prefer to be paid for your labour?

Oh yup, we have lots of laws all right, that does not mean they are
complied with. If you prefer crops grown under chemically intensive
conditions, what I call chemical farming compared to holistic farming,
then that’s your choice. As long as that apple has no blemishes and
shines, most consumers are clearly happy! Ok fine lol. You eat it..

A quick Hi. Nicky Thank You for your response. You will not find anything on the web pages regarding this policy project. You can contact me through either these adresses- go to contact. From there I can get the lawyers to contact you straight away before they close for their break. This will only take one minute of your time. That way the lawyers can call you and explain what they dont have time to do themselves and discuss payment. I cant do anymore than that I am afraid. It is very much in the animals interests this is done urgently to enable meetings to take place early next year before elections.

I will wait right up until the 25th as I can contact them after hours. [I would prefer not to have to disturb them while on holidays.]

If I have not heard from you by then I will take it you are not interested .

Goodbye everybody. Have a safe holiday.

http://www.livexports.com/solution.html
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Antje

Wow, so much chatter and so little is about alternative solutiuons to live exports.

Well Wiz, the reality from WA might well be to sail em up the
coast, to a plant in Indonesia. Its no further then trucking
them East and much kinder to the animals. Boat turnaround
times would be just a few days, so even one modern, state
of the art boat, could move one hell of a lot of sheep.

Fact is that the processing industry in WA is caught between
a rock and hard place. T&R agreed to spend 40 million $ to
build a new plant, all held up for months by State Govt red
tape, who don't seem to care figjam about rural issues, all
their votes are in the city.

Other plants simply can't obtain labour, everyone has gone to
work for the miners. Fed and State red tape prevents them
bringing in foreign guest workers, so all you have right now,
even to deal with present livestock, including the 3 million
live trade animals, is lots of dreams by a few.

Reality prevails, shooting them is not an option, or only
for a few. Perhaps that plant in Indonesia or Malaysia will
start to look more and more attractive given time!

WIZ
your correct. Most have stopped posting

By the way Yabby means Regional and Trade of WA if you feel like writing them. Just to explain it a little more to you Wiz is most regional reps of parliment ]or many] have a conflict of interest and actually live on the land and engage themselves in the cruel live export trade.

As city slickers move out to country areas I hope we will get some changes.

According to some its better to let the animals suffer than farmers be responsible for breeding animals 'knowing' they could die of thirst in padocks.

Large amount of farmers dont! shoot their animals in these times and leave them to die slowly in padocks.
I am starting to agree with another poster who wanted areas of continued drought purchaded by the government and black listed for farming.

They actually use staff shortage as an excuse for cruelty.

A plant in WA are already slaughter and sending the whole of the carcuss over to be cut by their own butchers.

To PF Yabby Nicky I simply would like to say manners cost nothing. I sent you heaps of info PF regarding the advisory board and other issues at your request but not even a reply.

The way in which I was raised if somebody said Seasons greetings for example you said thanks same to you.

Yabby and PF are not serious about animal welfare OLO is just a thing they do because they are bored.
Nicky- or I think it might be Suzzanne [isnt it? of Tasi. Either way - please forget it. You have made no attempt to contact me despite being offered 5 g to help write a report. Then you say you really care about making changes to improve animal welfare.
Whatever @
Again manners cost nothing.

I will say it again- I started this thread for all the right reasons- but nobody wants to really! do something about solving the staff shortages or anything else.

You are very Correct Wiz.

Antje