Nicky, one of the hardest things to explain to non sheep people like yourself,
is the nature of sheep and why they die when they do. PF is correct, they
are a high mortality species, you just about need to go farming for a while
to really understand it. Yes deaths increased as more sheep were shipped,
around 4 million. In that context 35’000 is quite acceptable. On farms
around 5% is considered normal, so that would be 5 million deaths a year.

Regarding decent ships, I remind you that in 2007 all of them will have to
be decent enough to pass the AMSA standards. Perhaps you don’t understand
the effect that Siba Ships, with their whole new philosophy, is having on
the industry. Siba recently took over the Deneb and next launched will be
the Castor. I’d say that they will become by far the biggest operator, as
a number of Arab operators have bailed out.

Regarding how AQIS charge, I don’t need a journalist to quote an academic,
I simply ask AQIS. As a fee for service operator, well of course meatworks
would have higher bills, as they need to use their services more, to comply
with international standards. Duh.

I drive a Holden 4wd made in Thailand, have a Nokia phone made in China.
Open your eyes, look around you, it’s a global economy, wether we like it
or not.

Fact is that if we farmers don’t stick up for ourselves, we get trampled by
local monopolies. The live trade to some extent protects us from locals
whom it seems would prefer to buy our sheep for nearly nothing, rather
then pay us a fair price. Farmers are right down the bottom of the chain,
we are price takers, after everyone else has had their snouts in the trough.
If we owned our own ships (decent of course) we could sail past the
lot of them

Hello all
Firstly, to PF - have you any clues about what these chemicals might be?

"The Australian Quarantine Inspection Service (AQIS) supports changes to the Export Slaughter Intervals (ESI) levels for veterinary treatments that have the active ingredients Dimetridazol, Olaquindox and Florfenicol".

Why are you forced to be a paid member of APL? Would it be worth forming a breakway group specializing in free-range pig farming (then you could have a website refuting this claptrap from APL). They really are nutters, aren't they? AA and Voiceless are noted for their moderation; neither takes part in what is usually described as "activism".

To Yabby and sheep ... may I suggest that if 5% mortality on a farm is considered "normal", one of several things must be happening here. Firstly, the farmers are not very good at what they do (no wonder we have to throw them so many handouts!); secondly, they are greedy and have far more animals than they can properly care for (since they are almost all mulesed, what sort of flystrike death rates are we talking about here?), thirdly, perhaps they just don't bother looking after them at all (mules 'em all, and hope for the best in the short time between birth and slaughter/live export).

The "Deben Prima" story will probably gladden some hearts; not mine. It is still the old "Rodolfo Mata" which was still the old "Ming Universe". You can't re-badge them forever and claim them to be the next "great new thing". Regarding compliance, I think you'll find that beyond insisting on secondary/back-up ventilation systems (for when they keep breaking down), AMSA is walking away from any aspect of animal welfare, that is to be handed to AQIS - which knows nothing about ships, just as AMSA knows nothing about animals (straight from AMSA official). AMSA expects expects the old and disastrous "Bader III" to be within compliance limits, which gives me little hope that there is to be any substantial improvement.
BTW - what is the barber's pole? Yabby,shame on you - a Holden Rodeo? 10/10 for inconsistency as usual.
Cya
Nicky

Nicky, the list of diseases that can affect sheep is as long as your arm. If you
are really keen to educate yourself enough to comment, why don’t you buy a book
on sheep diseases and inform yourself. I recently had a few girls go skinny and
had a vet do an autopsy (at huge expense I might add). It turned out to be
pneumonia, various types of which can affect sheep, yes, even those living
in their natural environment, out in the paddocks, free range.

Mulesing cuts flystrike dramatically, but they can still get body strike.

Regards upgrading old ships, I remind you that Jamie Packer’s luxury yacht
used to be an old ice breaker! Main thing with Siba, they have a quite different
philosophy then some of the other companies, so the changes are welcome.

I remind you that it is not beyond AQIS and AMSA to work together in coming
up with standards under DAFF.

http://www.daff.gov.au/livestockexportstandards

Given your comments and given your lack of knowledge, what are you doing commenting about sheep ? :)

Of course you are negative. As a vegetarian who doesent seem to have much
time for farmers, I didn’t expect anything else! That’s why we need more
impartial and better informed people then yourself to pass judgement on the
industry, like vets who know something about farm livestock.

What do you have against Holden Rodeo. Why am I inconsistent? Which
Aussie made 4wd do you recommend ? :)

nicky - they are all antibiotics. Intensively farmed pigs are fed them right up until the withholding period. Interesting that they have extended the ESI to 28 days but its alright for domestic consumption within 12 days.

Antibiotics have a dual purpose - to fend off disease that is rampant in intensive farming and also to act as a growth promotant.

Barbers Pole is a worm. One of the biggest killers of sheep and resistance to medications is very high. It literally sucks the life out of them. You are very wrong with your comments about flystrike. It can strike within days in the most cared for flock. Farmers spend a fortune on preventative measures.

Hi PF and Yabby
I recognize that I don't know a whole lot about sheep, guys, but I do know cruelty when I see it, and that is my argument here, not sheep per se. Dare I suggest that if sheep mortalities on-farm are so high, and they are so prone to diseases (and flystrike, in spite of the mutilations), and they and other cloven hooved animals are exotic to Australia and they and intensive farming operations generally are largely responsible for a great deal of land degradation and soil erosion, that perhaps they are not the animals who shouod be farmed here at all? Climate change is only going to exacerbate all that, too (I know - that is positively HEATHEN!).
Yabby, nothing at all against Holden Rodeos, nor indeed anything in particular against a global economy, I just prefer to support Australian products where there is a choice. The only context in which I oppose your notion of "global economy" is when it involves taking living, feeling, suffering and defenceless animals, loading them on crappy old sbips (with all due respect to the "Becrux" and Siba Ships propaganda notwithstanding) and sending them into the hands of savages to be butchered after a torturous journey.
PF, as always, thanks for the info.
Sleep on it!
Nite nite,
Nicky

Nicky, yup I read all the so called evil things that us people who farm pigs,
cattle, sheep etc, plus eat their meat, are meant to be doing, there are some
valid points, some invalid. At least I am more objective then you :)

Based on the logic of your argument, we could then say that Europeans
are exotic to Australia and the most damaging of all to the environment,
so what are you doing here ? :)

We don’t farm kangaroos due to the Skippy factor. Soil erosion and
environmental damage are more due to stocking rates then anything,
Fact is we are developing methods to combat those. Cultivation of soil
has in fact been one of the largest contributors to soil erosion.

You forget that most cattle and sheep are not intensively farmed but
extensively farmed here. If there were no sheep grazing on my place
for instance, the whole lot would simply go up in a fireball every
year, with the next lightning strike.

You say you know cruelty when you see it, but I have seen so many
animal libbers get their knickers in a twist, due to pure ignorance
about the subject. Can’t you at least employ SOME qualified and
experienced people?

Yes there were some crappy old ships, now we are getting nice new
ships! The Castor looks pretty flash, her twin should be the same.

So your “torturous” comment is perhaps simply biased melodrama.

Your ‘savages” comment is a bit of neat stereotyping, both Aus
and the ME contain some really nice people and some savages.

If things need changing and upgrading in the ME, lets play a part
in making that happen. SA imports about 10 million sheep a year.
They are unlikely to hear about handling them in more animal
friendly ways from Sudan, Ethiopia, Turkey, China, or other
supplier countries. We can really play a positive role there.

I gave you one idea of achieving change very cost effectively.
Religion is the button to push, if you want change in the ME.