Yabby

"Yup, that is the extremist vegan position, ie the evils of leather.
That's why I call you an extremist."

I don't consider Nicky an extremist at all. Principled and committed to her beliefs? Yes. Extremist in her style or her views? No.

As Nicky herself pointed out, she is not preaching that we should follow her example, though she would of course wish more people would, she is just stating her personal preference.

Having said that, I enjoy the ongoing repartee between you and Nicky, and Dickie too, when she's around. I actually see good sense in some of what you say, Yabby, but in my humble opinion, the girls are winning this never-ending verbal stoush hands down!

Ah Bromwyn, you just stick up for the sisters. They need all the
help that they can get :)

I see Nicky a bit like I see the Opus Dei Catholics. They are
at the extreme end of their religion. Upfront they promote their
philosophies, but as you dig deeper, they are into self whipping and
other weird beliefs.

With Nicky, we have a similar situation, which we are dragging out
bit by bit. Animal welfare is one issue, animal liberation as per
Peta is far more extreme and that is clearly her philosophy.

The Peta founder and leader is of course just as extreme, ready to
barbecue her own meat when she dies. Nearly as kinky as those
Opus Dei Catholics!

People have been raising livestock for thousands of years and one
species eating another is in fact part of nature. To now deny
nature is certainly extreme, all very much "tippytoe through the
tulips" feelgood stuff, but totally unrealistic, in a very real world.

I have no problem with Nicky living and doing as she pleases. I do
have a problem with her trying to close down WA livestock industries
by denying WA farmers global markets.

Yabby. Have you ever thought about putting your self in Nickie's shoes! I think you will find a good heart there. If our opinions comes from experiences, how can one ever understand the other. I see two worlds colliding, with one not knowing the other.

Have a look and try the vegetarian side of things before you judge.

Your right about city living,(on quite a few levels). Just go down to Sydney and buy a kebab.lol I have also worked in the food industry. Now that's an eye opener!

We all change, when we see.

EVO

*I think you will find a good heart there. If our opinions comes from experiences,*

Evo, of course Nicky had a good heart! In a way you make my point
for me, for I have encouraged Nicky to pack away her papers, buy
herself a swag and go and experience life in the country, which
she clearly does not understand. No wonder that she makes so
many false assumptions. I have experienced both sides of living,
so see things from both sides.

Every time I put some lambs or ewes on a truck, I feel a bit sad that
they have to go. But I also accept reality, I do not deny it.

Its very easy to preach about a "feelgood" world. People like
Dickie, prefer to switch off their TVs, when David Attenborough
shows them what is going on in the real world. Hey presto, push
the button and reality is gone! How very simple, just deny reality,
its easier then dealing with it.

Every day on my farm, I see some sadness. A ewe might have lost
her lamb, a lamb born with some genetic flaw, ripped to bits by
a fox or pecked to death by crows. OTOH I also see huge amounts
of animals enjoying their lives, sitting in the sun, chewing the
cud, doing what ewes and lambs do, playing little games running
around the dams, whatever. One ewe that I was particularly concerned
about last week, finally had her twins just yesterday. Its a joy
to watch it all! Perhaps that is why I do it, for this farm has
only ever just paid its bills for years.

For others to suggest that these animals should never have had a life
in the first place, because they might be concerned about how they
are recycled after death, is plain nonsense to me.

IMHO Nicky has simply adopted this as her cause and purpose in life.
Clearly she is nervous about a bit of pain, so perhaps that is why
she never had a kid or two, to give her purpose, as with other
mothers

Yabby

"I have experienced both sides of living, so see things from both sides."

With respect, no, you don't Yabby. I've read enough of your posts to know you are totally intractable when it comes to animal welfare issues.

I know you've experienced country and city living. So have I. I grew up on a farm and relate easily to your descriptions of farm life, which I must admit do exhibit a certain amount of genuine pride and interest in the welfare of your own animals.

You are still very blinkered though when it comes to animal welfare issues on a broader scale. Live export, in particular, which you defend without concession, is totally cruel and unnecessary. There's nothing but sheer unadulterated greed that could justify shipping animals around the world. When we bring food miles into the equation, it is quite outrageous that this trade continues unabated. I can live with the breeding of animals for domestic markets if they are raised, transported and killed humanely, but as I am beginning to learn from the likes of Nicky and others, this is often not the reality.

We need committed people like Nicky to act as a beacon to the rest of us. If it wasn't for their awareness raising on issues like battery hens and mulesing, for example, most of us would never realise the cruelty inflicted on animals in order for us to lead the lifestyles we do.

As pointed out by EVO, it's time you started making some concessions, Yabby! We don't need a complete capitulation but a bridge here and there with your long-time adversaries wouldn't hurt all that much, would it?

" animals do have an awareness "

They certainly do have awareness. Yet I suspect their awareness and consciousness modes are different from humans. They do not seem to mourn for long, and appear to accept their predicament in the wild as inevitable and momentary. The animal world seems to be very practical and accept the world as it is, unlike humans. An animal will defend its young, but not with its life - when it realises the odds are against it - it will allow its young to be taken and continue whatever it was doing with no remorse.

The reaction of humans to such a premise appears, because we see it from our own views. There is also no choice factor for the animals: a cow is not good because it is a vegetarian, nor a lion bad because it eats meat. In a sense, this makes human reaction quite irrelevent, and we most probably turn to vegetarianiasm to soothe our own sense of morals. It is irrevent because we cannot change the nature of the world no matter what measures we adopt. The animal world will not hesitate to consume humans, given the chance - and this is the destiny of all of us: we end up as fodder for the subterranean world, then grass for the cows we eat.

An experiment shows the animal world's practical morals:

A monkey and her child were put in an ampty pond, which was slowly filled with water. The monkey kept protecting its child, as the water level raised, holding the child above it. When the water level reached the nose of the mother monkey, she put the child under her feet and stood over it - to protect her own life and abandone the child.

Kindness to animals are not associated with not eating meat. Observing animal rights laws, while eating meat, is a far greater merit. The animals accept they will be eaten, and wish only to have a decent life until their number is up - and they go to the chopping block with no protest.