Hi all

Last one for the evening, of course. PALE, you really need to put up or shut up. Once again you fail to provide any evidence of any achievements whatsoever beyond a slaughterhouse website which is old and may or may not in fact exist in the operational sense, there is no indication given either way. Hardly evidence of achievement in animal welfare in anyone's language.

If you have these "relationships" with the RSPCA and AFIC it can't be that hard to get them to come out and say so, or is it as I suspect, you have driven them off too with your outrageous, delusional behaviour?

Attempts to be patronizing fail when you lack the communication skills to do it effectively. Why SHOULD anyone meet with you just because you say so? It's not as if you ask nicely, by anyone's definition.

Clearly the other groups must share my view that your strategy has gone nowhere under your "management" so have decided to step in and do something a bit more strategic than simply insulting and offending everyone who disagrees with them. If I recall correctly, the free-range pig farmer received his/her share of insults from PALE (not to mention the "help me set up slaughterhouses" plea that assails and seems to drive away every new contributor) and no doubt had enough of you and your unsubstantiated claims, and I've never had anything to do with a free-range poultry farmer that I can recall; they obviously did not identify as such.

I also explained in detail why your petition wouldn't work and why I wouldn't meet with your Muslim friends, stating that your methods (thankfully!) are not my methods. That said, I will gladly support and contribute to any efforts by Handle with Care and Animals Australia, who have the professional expertise so sadly lacking in PALE.

Dickie, you may have noticed that PALE also tries to resort to insults, hot air and a good deal of baseless self-aggrandizement when put at a disadvantage, but in comparison, Yabby and Rojo are a bit better at it.

Cheers
Nicky

To whom it may concern

We are dedicated to improving the life conditions of all animals including farm animals.
While we support all animal welfare groups we will not be bullied black listed underminded by any.
Regarding our MOU with AFIC it is as any a binding document.
AFIC are now in caretaker mode until a new election.

I was personally dissapointed by Ikabels behavouir and said so even hanging up the phone in his ear and demading we were taken off the AFIC web site.
Many people have shared concerns with us over several months.
On top of that we had these clowns wanting to exclude our organisation knowing we held a MOU and stomp in not having a clue as to what was going on and create what would be a disaster!

We have a close working realshonsip that has stood the test of time throughout what will be our third election is a few short years.

We will contiune to work with RSPCA QLD and AFIC regarding animal welfare.

We decided to lodge a formal complaint to AFIC regarding the behavouir of some people involved in Animal Welfare outside our organisation.

Within twenty four hours Ikebal was no longer the President of AFIC.

We also intend to lodge a formal complaint in regards to 'others' behavoiur.

Everybody is welcome to work on the many projects to help the Animals. We would encourage those who are genioun in their concerns for animals to contact us through the net.

please remember it is the animals that require everbodyy to work united together.
Something that apparetnly has been differcult for some in the past.
pale intends to contiune their efforts to improve standars in animal welfare and faze out live exports.
We will contiune to work with RSPCA QLD and AFIC regarding animal welfare.

Get used to it.

Deary me Nicky, so because I discuss neuroscience, about which you seem to know
nothing, it is patronising? I remind you that psychology has been navel gazing for
years, to understand human behaviour, most of it sheer speculation. Neuroscience
is providing answers, as at the end of the day, what you do depends on the functions
of your brain. Endocrinology is a part of that. Ignore it at your peril, as you clearly
do, when you try to ridicule it, due to your lack of education about the subject.

*We do all in fact know that some animals eat others (not being able to avoid the so-called "nature
documentaries" the likes of David Attenborough seem to like to force down our throats),*

Why would you want to avoid them, when they assist in explaining nature, and how
things really are? Reality does not go away, when you close your eyes and wish
it would. That is more a sign of emotions dominating reason, which is a human
weakness, I grant you.

*which gives them the capacity to know right from
wrong, and to recognize and understand cruelty when they see it.*

Morality Nicky, is little more then your subjective opinion. There is no evidence
of objective morality. You see a sheep’s leg dangling from a truck and scream
“cruelty”. I see the same sheep and am simply aware of its discomfort, I don’t classify
it as “cruelty”.

*Animals also do not seek to profit from the cruelty they inflict*

Animals seek to make a living and multiply, as humans do. We are just another species in the big scheme of things.

*Humans do not care what happens to the animal, no matter how awful, as long as there are a few bucks
to be made. That is the distinction.*

Not so, you are stereotyping and not all humans are the same. The thing is, many things have to be weighed up and considered, not just one narrow perspective. For
Most species its easy, they just want dinner. For humans the arguments are more
complex, such as the moral arguments.

Hi all

Yabby, you are so simplistic (simple?). I did't say I disregarded or ignored neuroscience or endocrinology, I said that my work was not thus limited. And sure I have a "line in the sand". If it's cruel (and espcially when you KNOW that), don't do it. Not a difficult or subjective concept. You think it's fine for sheep to be transported in appalling conditions for God knows how long and see it as "discomfort". I see it as the fact that the transporter has prpbably overloaded (and I've filmed plenty of them and they have been charged) to get a few more bucks for the trip. Just one example.

PALE, still we see no evidence. "We will continue to work for the animals", Doing what, precisely? Do you, for instance, do anything like what Animals Angels does (see their website)? Or Animals Australia, in the Middle East and elsewhere? Inspect slaughterhouses, feedlots and saleyards and report on cruelty, or file reports on some of the shocking transports?

Your organization has been there since 2000, and any drop in live export activity cannot be reasonably attributed to the efforts of PALE (I note on your website you lay claim to the WA venture in which you had no known involvement though).

As for AFIC - you "hung up in his ear". That just says it all, doesn't it? Have you done likewise with the RSPCA?

A quick look at AFIC's website indicates that it is not in fact they who are the certifying authority for halal meat, a government agency is. AFIC currently has no office bearers (interesting in itself), and not a word about cruelty to animals in sight.

The RSPCA appears to have decided to do its own thing without PALE, so where does that leave you? Writing more bitter letters of complaint and misery that everyone concerned will ignore. And attacking anyone and everyone who posts on these threads for no better reason than they choose not to work with you.

Come to think of it, why am I bothering?

Cheers
Nicky

*Yabby, you are so simplistic*

Nicky, I remind you that knowledge is about knowing a lot of information,
wisdom is about being able to express it in simple terms!

*I did't say I disregarded or ignored neuroscience or
endocrinology,*

You certainly implied it, by trying to ridicule my passing comments about
hormones. Little did you know, that neuroscience is one of my hobbies.
If you want to know how a car works, pull the engine to bits. It’s a bit the
same with the brain.

*You think it's fine for sheep to be transported in appalling conditions for God knows how long and
see it as "discomfort".*

What appalling conditions? Sheep are outdoors creatures, unlike you. If things
aren’t air conditioned at 22degC, unlike you, they are used to it, its part of their
lives. Out in a paddock, it can be 45deg, it can be 0deg, it can be pouring with
rain. That is the world of a sheep, from its perspective that is all normal. Sheep
commonly spend a couple of days in pens, waiting to finally be shorn. That is
common all over Australia. Sure its best if transport is less then that, but because
some go on a truck for a day or two, does not mean it is cruel.

Your definition of cruelty is where your subjective opinion comes into it. But
then as we know, you relate your own feelings to one of a sheep. You are different
species, acclimatised to live in different conditions.

*I see it as the fact that the transporter has prpbably overloaded*

How can you make that comment about a whole industry, when your experience
involves one saleyard? Especially on a long journey of a day or two, sheep would
arrive dead and be worthless, if they were overloaded. What would be the point of
that

Without posting directly to this clearly IMOP derannged woman RSPCA have done no such thing.
As for Animal Angels they are a part of Christa the German lady who provided so much information and gave up her church Leadership to help Animals.
What a fantastic effort she has made over the years.

We also fully support many others including Bridgett and PACAT.

There are dozens of organisations not only in Australia but world wide that do an amazing job.

We dont know what is the real cause of genes but falling in line with Yabbys theory some people care about animals and others dont.

If we had the answer to that we would market the good genes and toss the others overboard off the ships.

Perhaps one day people will be made to order like punching in a number and picking the type of kid you want to own.

Ijust sure hope they outlaw the bad genes by making animal cruelty such as live exports a illegal gene to be sold.

Who knows maybe it will even be possible for those already born to go and get a recharge of nice genes in place of nasty ones.

Genes- Yup Yabby, your certainly on the right track with that one.
I think genes are responsible for cruelty or kindness.

Umm, not sure where that leaves some of you guys but have a nice evening if your not a live animal exporter:)