Hi again, all

Perhaps PALE would enlighten us all about what actual outcomes it has achieved as a group in real animal welfare improvements, in comparison with, for example, PETA, Animal Liberation and Animals Australia; even www.liveexportshame.com, which does not apparently claim to be an active "organization" is more worthwhile.

They claim to have "worked to end live exports" in conjunction with the RSPCA. Live exports have declined, perhaps PALE could tell us how they directly contributed to that.

How have their Memoranda of Understanding actually worked? What has AFIC done apart from issue one media release way back when "halal practices" in the Middle East were exposed (by Animals Australia)? There was also a totally irrelevant submission to the Senate Committee back in 2003 which really did nothing much more than promote what is effectively PALE's slaughterhouse "arm".

It should be noted that the material on RSPCA websites around the country is in fact Animals Australia's material, so the RSPCA'a relationship with AA seems to be more effective than its relationship with PALE, if indeed that still exists. We don't see any contributions from RSPCA Queensland here supporting PALE's activities or claims, do we (but we all know how busy they are with cats and dogs)? Perhaps they could be persuaded to make a statement to us all that they do indeed work "in conjunction with" PALE. It would take about five minutes of the CEO's valuable time. Perhaps AFIC could be persuaded to do the same, just to reassure us all that all PALE's claims are in fact for real.

In the meantime, while we wait for that, I'll maintain my faith in groups like AA, AL, CIWF and the like.

Cheers
Nicky

*Your notion of "nature" is that animals live only as long as you (humans generally) allow them to, and in that time, and beyond it, they are to be exploited to the maximum. Nothing especially natural about that, I'm afraid.*

No Nicky, my notion is that herbivores evolved as they did, to produce large amounts of offspring
which can run around in a jiffy, because in nature they regularly get eaten by predators. Sleeping
with bunch of lions watching your every move, is not stress free living. The weak, the slow,
the young, the old, are regularly eaten. That’s nature for you, not a Mary Poppins film.

Free range farm livestock generally don’t have all that stress. If wild dogs etc move
in, they are usually shot. So my livestock can sleep in relative peace, they are fed
through hard times and drought, they get treated for worms, any suffering or too old
are put down.

But yes, we thin down the numbers by selling them for food. Eating herbivores is
as natural as nature itself. Sustainable population has to be dealt with, be it humans,
sheep, or kangaroos. Your AA solution of putting them all on the pill is highly
unnatural, IMHO. Many of my sheep do in fact spend their whole lives here. I try
and sell them before their teeth get too loose, or they will land up suffering in old
age. Some, like old George, stayed till they dropped.

I sell them to whatever market will take them at a reasonable price. If a livestock
buyer offers me a crappy price, as he knows that I have little option but to sell them
to him, I make doubly sure that they go elsewhere.

*which includes taking social animals on outings on the odd occasion,*

You forget the point. You clearly make up the rules as you go along, then draw your little moral
line in the sand, a bit like the Catholic Church really lol.

*Yabby has an obsession with hormones, and his aunties, from an earlier post.*

Now now Nicky, don't act stupid, or I will have another reason
to call you stupid. I made it clear about the lambs aunties,
a couple of times now.

No obsession about hormones either. Clearly human behaviour is
not your speciality, certainly not from a neuro-science perspective.
The mind is what the brain does after all. So my interest is
purely one of human understanding, based on science. Perhaps
a bit above your head? I thought so lol.

Don't forget that the tabula razza theory was proven wrong, many
years ago now. Both genes and environment affect human behaviour
and your genetic makeup influences your endocrine system, which
affects your behaviour, thoughts etc. But as its above your
head, I won't bother explaining too much, life is far simpler
for the uneducated such as yourself :)

Yabbs said
Now now Nicky, don't act stupid,

Pale comments
Now Yabbs what makes you think it’s an act.

Nicky

I don’t have to show you anything other than what I know you have already seen.
Our RSPCA QLD CEO doesn’t either. Nor AFIC.

AFIC have their own problems and we are all working very hard to continue with our very worth while work for the Animals.

As I said the others had YEARS to accept invitations from us to join us at meetings with Muslim Leaders not only from Australia but off shore too- they declined.
Thats is a matter of record.

All the evidence you need of our work is here=
I suggest you just look at the pictures as anything else seems too difficult for you to understand.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Your unreal. I have seen you both turn your back on a real free range farmer breeding pigs.
Also a free Range Poultry farmer.
Both have stopped posting and that’s 'a real pity.'

You could have and should have helped with that survey. But no. Then you go on about helping animals!
Well there’s one farmer who has quietly got on with the job with zero help from these so called Animal Groups!

Then you did ditto re the petition

You also have done ditto towards reopening plants.



Apparently our efforts aren’t too bad either Nicky which is why I assume the Handle with Care Coalition tried to sneak in through the back door ignoring our many invitations to walk in the front door.

With again zero background into this complicated area the possibility of doing more harm than good "was very real"

We will always put the Animals first so we are protective of our work to faze out live by reopening plants and our animal welfare work with Muslim leaders.

I suggest you put your efforts more into a program to help animals then bitching at our organization.

Which reminds me we were requested by not to even bother to return post to you.
imop A wise instruction, which i will now follow
I did try.

"Then you did ditto re the petition" Pale

Why resort to lies Pale?

Hi again all

Poor Yabby, it is so sad that you have to resort to patronizing claptrap when you're at a disadvantage. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but business, behavioural and social psychology and sociology have in fact been amongst of my specialities. But the work I have done in the areas was not limited to the hormonal elements.

We do all in fact know that some animals eat others (not being able to avoid the so-called "nature documentaries" the likes of David Attenborough seem to like to force down our throats), but the human species is the worst predator that this planet will ever have to recover from. Also, humans regard themselves as of "higher order intelligence" which gives them the capacity to know right from wrong, and to recognize and understand cruelty when they see it.

Animals are not wantonly cruel to one another, contrary to humans, who are cruel to most animals. Animals also do not seek to profit from the cruelty they inflict when they inflict it as humans do. Humans do not care what happens to the animal, no matter how awful, as long as there are a few bucks to be made. That is the distinction.

And it has nothing to do with gender or hormones and everything to do with morality.

I'd better save the last post for the evening for when PALE threatens me with legal action.

Cheers
Nicky