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The Forum > General Discussion > Very few people will bother to do this but- Say something for God sake if you care at all

Very few people will bother to do this but- Say something for God sake if you care at all

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http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/news/article/86111.aspx

News National Rural News Livestock News Have your say on national animal welfare land transport standards Have your say on national animal welfare land transport standards
1/05/2008 5:07:00 PM
The Queensland Department of Primary Industries and Fisheries is urging north Queenslanders to have a say on proposed Australian standards for the welfare of animals for the aand transport of livestock.
Local transport operators, livestock industry organisations, veterinarians, animal welfare groups, saleyard agents, stock managers, railway officials and members of the public are encouraged to have their say on the new standards, which are undergoing consultation until May 27.

Local DPI&F regional project leader, Ian Rodger, said the standards and guidelines will replace the multiple existing national Model Codes of Practice for transport.

"The standards and guidelines will cover the transport of cattle, sheep, horses, goats, deer, alpacas, pigs, camels, buffalo, poultry and ratites (emus and ostriches)," Mr Rodger said.

"Animal Health Australia, the organisation conducting the consultation, is seeking comments on how well people believe the new standards provide the necessary specifications for the protection of livestock during land transport, and I encourage everyone in the north to have their say.

"They want to know if the associated Regulatory Impact Statement demonstrates the need for the new standards and identifies the key costs and benefits to industry, government and the community."

If the public do not speak up the dreadful lack of control over the indusrty will continue

we urge you to speak up and mAKE the government answerable for their turning a bline eye to how these animals are treated.
Its time now to stop this idea that someone else will do it.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 2 May 2008 6:15:41 AM
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Yep, I think you're right. Very few people will bother. Food is getting expensive enough. Now you want to impose MORE regulations which will, in the end, create a greater cost for the final product. Sweet as, thanks for that.

How about creating more jobs for inspectors to police the welfare of animals.
Posted by StG, Friday, 2 May 2008 4:44:16 PM
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Dear PALE&IF,

I fully agree with you and the RSPCA that the drafting of National Standards and Guidelines for the welfare of animals is a positive development, provided that they result in improved welfare outcomes for transported animals.

Equally important, though, is that State and Territory Governments adopt the endorsed Standards into legislation ASAP to ensure consistent regulation of animal welfare during transport.

I sent an email stating my views to:

consultation@animalwelfarestandards.net.au

Written submissions for those wishing to make a comment have to be received by 27th May 2008 at the following address:

Animal Welfare Standards Public Consultation
PO BOX 196
DICKSON ACT 2602

Fax: 07 5429 8486

General Enquiries: info@animalwelfarestandards.net.au

Come on people - do it for the animals.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 2 May 2008 6:28:51 PM
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I don't think people care about anything until it costs them a dollar.
It's plain & simply the result of ever lessening morals which so many refuse to accept that it happens. All the consumer is interested in is readily available prime food on the supermarket shelf. How it gets there is of no consequence, especially if it's cheap.
The suffering of an animal is nothing at all to most. Just look at your average jetty when fishers leave their catch flapping in agony till it just dies.
So far as the live sheep trade to the middle east goes I'd like to suggest the price of those sheep rise in unison with the price of oil.
Posted by individual, Friday, 2 May 2008 6:34:10 PM
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I believe that creating new employment for australian's in this area can save many animal's as animals sent oversea's suffer stress and death due to transport. Instead process the sheep and cattle here in australia then freeze the meats for export as this will keep the meats fresh and increase export weight of meats and customers are then buying higher quality meats that are not stressed due to export.David H
Posted by mattermotor, Friday, 2 May 2008 10:53:35 PM
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Pale

I note this document contains over 100 pages. A cursory glance reveals the usual "mays" and "shoulds" and while I intend posting a written submission, I confess my cynicism has at this stage, got the better of me. I believe this exercise will again protect the industry and not the animals.

Standards and guidelines are unenforceable. Slick bureaucrats know this and I'm constantly amazed at the massive waste of resources used in writing crocks of unenforceable, unlegislated poppy cock which goes nowhere and are simply an exercise in bureaucratic spin.

Therefore "standards" and "guidelines" have got Buckleys I'm afraid, however for those who may think I am being emotive, I ask you to ask yourself why Australia is the largest polluter per capita on the planet, given there are EPA Acts all over the country to "protect" the industry......errr that should read "environment" from hazardous industrial chemicals.

Then ask yourself why, despite all the State Animal Welfare Acts, Australia is seen as one of the cruellest countries in the world in the treatment of its animals? Just today, a sadist was let off scot free after he'd cut off a kitten's head.

Yesterday a couple evaded arrest by escaping with up to a hundred dogs which they had mistreated and incarcerated under the most appalling conditions.

Since we are advised that this review is to improve the welfare of animals, I intend asking why legislation for livestock, long overdue, is not in the planning. In addition, if this department is concerned about animal welfare in this country why the gag in this review on the issue of transport for live exports, particularly in light of the disgraceful outcome for the hapless animals under the "care" of Emanuel Exports?

Do not be intimidated by the jaberwonky bureau-speke these slicksters adopt when cornered.

As Pale says: "Say something for God sake." These bureaucrats are running our country as THEY choose, simply because our comments go no further than our very comfortable armchairs.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 3 May 2008 12:28:03 AM
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Hello STG
Thanks for making a comment on this thread. Yes people I am afriad are mislead by the Government both Federal and State. Its not that they dont cafe its just that our system is well oiled in their minds.
I know for sure if the everyday public actually saw what the industry and Government are hiding they would be SCREAMING.

Instead I guess they say to themselves - oh well there are Animal Welfare organisations and others taking care of the Animals and my lifes too busy with work and the kids.
High interest rates and buying school books is just about all they can handle while watching the price of meat rise due to world wide demand.

Hello our dear Foxy . Yes Your always there to call for justice and common deceny.
However Foxy just before you feel too comfortable we are asking the public to think and think again.
individual,
Here you are again expressing words that come from thinking Indidually. Dont ever change that name and what makes you- indivdual.
We need more public to think for themselves. We thank You .
mattermotor,
You hit the nail on the head!
There are bugger all people looking after the animals. That is the truth.

In this thread we intend to take a closer look at this well oiled political syatyem. We will discuss subs to the DPI State Governments and think again wy this should be presented in a tick here or they.

In fact why are prepaired doucument.

Dicky
The problem is we must stop talking in codes of practise because the public dont understand animal welfare group shop talk.

Your efforts of course are nothing short of fantasic.

In this thread we will explain to the public about the Government and RSPCA codes of practise and why it does not work for Animals.

It actually assists evil people to hide behind the Government- and for Government to hide behind evil people.

Well tell them no more. The public wont stand for it!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:14:42 AM
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Dear PALE&IF,

Please tell us what else can we do - if what Dickie says is true -
then what else can be done?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 3 May 2008 11:59:03 AM
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Dear Foxy

Thank you for your Question.

While there is no easy one answer, IMOP, the best thing, to do would be follow Dickys lead and lodge 'something'.

Tell all your friends and family the truth.

That being is RSPCA are very understaffed. The truth is RSPCA Have "no laws to enforce."

They are only what they term RECOMMENDED CODES OF PRACTISE= SELF Regulated ??

Try getting two friends in each suburb to get something out to local letter boxes.

One thing I think Dicky might like to do for us if she doesnt mind is to check what "RSPCA themselves lodge."?

I recall sitting up for three nights straight sending messages back and forth to Muslim reps in the community several years ago.

Together we put together what we thought was a pretty good sub.

Later I am sure I received a email from RSPCA QLD telling us thats thanks but these 'were standard 'and 'always done from head office RSPCA National.?

I 'suspect' all RSPCA National do is copy out the usless non inforacable codes and re lodge it etc etc.

Who knows maybe DPI just do it as they have MOUs with State Governments to inspect farm animals.?

There is something terribly wrong IMOP Foxy.

I think perhaps a open public enquiry or Royal Commission is required.

Many good people working there so my comments are directed at the STRUCTURE of RSPCA from National Branch.

Who employs the staff? To whom are they anwserable?

If CEOs wages are paid by funds from Federal and State Government a few inspectors etc.

Then Surley it would be a reasonable public observation to assume RSPCA National are simply another branch of the Government - Would it.?:

How is this board structered and to whom are they answerable to.?


eg, pale has contacted RSPCA National since 2003 to meet with Muslim Leaders to join us working under our MOU regarding Animal Welfare.

I have got to say the response has been more than dissapointing bordering and in fact at times straight out dishounerable and deceitful.

To Be Contiuned.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 3 May 2008 8:26:58 PM
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In a way it is extraordinary that there needs to be any input whatsoever from the public. One would think that there would be very strict guide lines in place already.

It is becoming important for people buying meat at butchers to ask where their meat comes from. How where the animals farmed and transported. The more people ask this, the more change will come about.

It is unbelievable that Australia allows export of live animals for the meat industry. As if it is not possible to address kosher and halal stipulations here in Australia itself.

Thanks Foxy for the address. I will also write and my daughter certainly will. She's been a vegetarian for philosophical reason for a long time now.

Pale, the only reason why people may not make too much comment is because willful blindness is easier to live with than feel guilty about what we eat
Posted by yvonne, Saturday, 3 May 2008 8:46:58 PM
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PALE&IF

I'd like to send an email to the address Foxy has provided. Are there any specific issues we should be addressing, or is a general statement against animal cruelty and live export okay? I can't really find out what the standards you're referring to are from anything I've read or linked to here. I don't really fancy reading the 100 pages Dickie mentioned in order to get my head properly around the facts, but I would like to add my voice on this issue.

I read this morning of some young guys in a car harrassing a woman walking her dogs in a deserted industrial area somewhere in Sydney's west. They deliberately ran over one of the dogs, killing it and then cruelly taunted the woman as she ran to its assistance. She described them as acting as if they were country boys racing around a paddock in a ute chasing a rabbit. I just can't begin to understand what would drive people to commit such cruelty.
Posted by Bronwyn, Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:32:15 PM
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I just can't begin to understand what would drive people to commit such cruelty.
Bronwyn,
As incomprehensible that kind of behavior is, it is not surprising. Add up the following:
Saturation nonsense on TV,
Saturation competitive sport,
saturation violence,
saturation advertising,
saturation stock market,
saturation etc. etc.
It really is no surprise people are losing all sense of moral & all that makes a civilized human being. Care about some animals ? How can we expect people to care about animals when we have no regard for our own kind. Bureaucracy has seen to that.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:47:55 PM
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Hi Bronwyn

Have you yet viewed the following relevant document "How to Comment?" I haven't opened the contents, however, I plan to select the briefest and simplest method to respond. Any response, complying with their terms of reference, will be better than none. I intend to raise additional questions in a separate email. That way they will not be able to ignore or disqualify my main submission.

http://www.animalwelfarestandards.net.au/How%20to%20comment.htm

The deeper one reflects on this issue the more dismayed one becomes, particularly on realising that Australia is one of the very few Western nations which do not have a National Animal Welfare Act.

I wonder which standards the vivisectionists operate under in Australia when they're mutilating live, conscious animals in their laboratories?
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 3 May 2008 11:41:34 PM
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Hi all
PALE, thanks for starting this thread, it is really important that the public makes an effort on this.

The quick look I've had a chance to have so far at the document indicates that it is all about benefits for producers/transporters etc etc and little to do with animal welfare. One thing that jumped out at me is a part where the standard for transport has been weakened. I'm away from home at present so I don't have the exact details, but where it was quite specific about the animal/s having to be able to stand comfortably in terms of headroom, that has been weakened. One important point that has to be raised also is MAXIMUM JOURNEY TIMES. Sheep can be deprived of water for up to 36 hours and cattle up to 48 hours - longer if the truckie doesn't think they are distressed (yeah, right).

These are animals who need huge amounts of water daily, and more so in hot weather conditions. At present, no-one monitors journey lengths/rest stops. I heard of one truckload of sheep from WA to Adelaide took well over 60 hours non-stop and when it did stop Police had to be called to shoot some of the sheep. That was quite recently too.

So please everyone, please try to submit something. And remember to make your submission specific to your areas of concern (i.e. headings, issues, conclusions).

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 4 May 2008 2:20:23 AM
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Dickie

Thank you for the useful links and info.

Will certainly be writing.

Cheers
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 4 May 2008 12:39:04 PM
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I have written about this issue to government as well (some time ago) and like dickie tend to be pessimistic about any real change in the development of a National Animal Welfare Act that will address live animal exports and which is legally enforceable.

Live animal exports have to be made illegal and when you read statements like this on DAFF website at http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/export-trade :

"The Australian Government supports the livestock export trade. It is a valuable and legitimate trade..."

that you realise what an uphill but not unwinnable battle this will be. The government needs to support a policy banning live animal exports pure and simple, guidelines that are not enforceable are useless. Pale has already indicated that Halal certified abbatoirs established in Australia could produce chilled meat to these markets.

In that link there is reference to "post-arrival animal welfare concerns" raised with the Middle East. This is nothing but spin and rhetoric. Australia has no jurisdiction or legal right to dictate to another government on these practices and years of cultural behaviour will not change overnight.
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 4 May 2008 12:54:21 PM
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Pelican,

I'm struggling with the logic in live-exports needing to be made illegal just because the Australian govt supports it. Surely "It is a valuable and legitimate trade..." is not grounds for dismissal either.
Just who is going to make it illegal other than govt, and on what grounds?

daff go on to say:

"Australia leads the world in animal welfare practices. The Australian Government does not tolerate cruelty towards animals and will not compromise on animal welfare standards. Our ongoing involvement in this trade provides an opportunity to influence animal welfare conditions in importing countries."

Some focus should fall upon that last line.
Posted by rojo, Sunday, 4 May 2008 1:55:42 PM
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rojo

Not sure how you interpreted that. I did not mean to imply that live exports be made illegal because the government supports it (as a reason in and of itself) but that it 'should' be illegal only because of the cruelty aspect. My sentence was referring to the uphill battle faced to ban live exports given that the government currently supports this policy.

The government has made some changes to the life of animals on these ships such as the requirement for a vet to travel onboard. This does not reduce the impact of the journey on animals nor any post-arrival cruelty over which we have no jursidiction or control. We can talk to the Middle East

I would argue with the statement that Australia leads the world on animal welfare - these are just bureaucratic gloss words that don't mean anything. Where is the evidence that we lead the world on animal welfare. We might at the domestic level (cats, dogs etc) but certainly not in the area of battery chickens and live exports.

Even if Australia did 'lead' the world in this arena, it does not mean we cannot do better or that current practices are not cruel.
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 4 May 2008 2:27:15 PM
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Hi All
Warning all, here comes Rojoyabby. They will call you names and taunt you to get you off topic.
If you want to help Animals - Please 'ignore' them. Unless of course its on topic in regard to codes of practise.

Yvonne
Yes it is extraordinary, we agree but sadly true. "The only friends these Animals have are the public."

Good to see so many intending to write.

Yes it is possible to slaughter in Australia you are quite correct.

This is what the X President of The Australian Federation of Islamic Council and Councils had to say- when asking the Government and Media to be “ responsible` and tell the” truth”about the Real Reasons for the cruel live Animal Trade. please note put out in time to 'support Lyn White and Animals Australia.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Bronwyn
Hello Yes I heard that story and wondered what sentence they will get- if any?

A Few months ago a women stole a Childs pet goat named Mandy.

She tortured and killed it in a Church. The Church and God forgave her- 'apparently'.( where`s Bozzie)

She said it was a "joke"

She got off. Not even a blemish on her record!?

The Attorney general, Police Commissioner, Kevin Rudd, Police Ministers office , and the Premiers office were all contacted by pale asking them to appeal. Rudd was up here that day.
"Nothing"

duckier,
A very interesting comment. I hope you stick around.
It is also important everyone to remember these codes are for ALL Animals many trucked interstate for local slaughter.

( Thanks for that link)

Fractelle
Thanks for putting in a sub and we hope you will comment in this thread. What do you think of starting a political party. I think AA would get a lot of support. Mind you we have no way of knowing if they would even consider. Thinking out loud.

pelican
Your absolutly right.

Muslim Animal Welfare groups. Lets face it how do these people feel when the Government blame them for their relgion! being reasonsible for such cruelty.

Its all Lies Lies lies - How insulting!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 4 May 2008 4:43:46 PM
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Pelican,
Of course the Government supports live exports because of the trade dollars involved in it. Even the low life’s that make their money out of creating misery which is quite uncalled for as the Muslim leaders themselves have stated openly tell you its not about the cargo.

Nicky
I hope you have a safe trip and return with your knowledge and information of what you have picked up on.
To all of your ladies and gentleman interested in this thread. =
To be really honest we would appreciate if you Dickey Nicky and others took over
'Again' yours and Dickys knowledge goes past mine unless I stop and read up information taking hours.

All of you are more qualified to answer questions to interested posters and members of the public.

And just before you again start Yabby – I never said pale knew it all. We all have something to offer which is why it’s so important we work together.

We do other things like work with farmers and Muslims leaders both here and in other countries. Your not talking to an office girl here I can assure you.
Which remind me everybody please excuses typo errors I have been breaking in the new speech soft wear...?

I know this sounds rude but often I talk while trying on another computer. We are that! busy.

rojo,
I welcome your comments about live exports and will be happy to point out later in this thread why "~you are very much mistaken~."

What comments do you have about codes of practice and transport etc to improve on Animal Welfare?

I am just as guilty I suppose of going off post. However let’s not divert this thread shall we?

Please give us your informed thoughts on the invitation to comment on codes and Animal Welfare. We look forward to it.

After all this is for 'all' Animals in Australia.



What did you think about the link Nicky ( I think) posted about the bloke at the abattoir sticking a electric prod up a animals anus and btw what happened about that?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 4 May 2008 5:28:09 PM
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Hi all
Just a quick one for now because I've just got home. Regarding the abattoir in Victoris where the sheep are being brutalised (electric prods up their anuses when they have nowhere to move to, and a sheep being left in a stunning box over the killing floor while the workers buggered off to lunch - you should watch the YouTube film, it is awful), it is, I'm told, a small, non-unionised slaughterhouse with a reputation, and unless the RSPCA goes in there, not a lot can be done. The AMIEU can't get in there. Similar atrocities are occurring at a pig slaughterhouse in WA, I'm told.

I think we can safely disregard Rojo's usual propaganda about a "legitimate trade". Any MoUs with importing countries are completely unenforceable, and only provide for animals to be off-loaded from ships anyway (and that is only in case there is another "Cormo Express" with its attendant publicity, it has nothing to do with the welfare of the animals). The only MoU additional to that was that second one with Egypt, and we saw how well that worked.

This sort of behaviour is entrenched in these countries. You only have to look at the photos of the children watching impassively the bull being tortured and butchered. That's how much influence Australia has, and ever will have, despite the spin by DAFF, and the likes of Rojo and Yabby.

The lack of a National Animal Welfare Act is what the WA magistrate was relying on in her ruling in the "Al Kuwait" case. There seems to be nowhere to go with that, although s118 of the Australian Constitution could be seen to contradict what she said (it provides for the State Governments' laws to be preserved and protected).

If enough people make sound comment on these proposed "standards", and DEMAND proper, enforceable and monitored conditions for these animals, we may make real progress towards a National Act - and we could demand an end to live exports that way.

Those are quick thoughts for tonight 'cause I'm pretty bushed.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 5 May 2008 12:30:53 AM
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Hello Nicky
fyi

Media outrage after police raid on Sunday Times newspaper


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23628010-661,00.html

AP

May 01, 2008 01:45pm

RIVAL media groups have joined together to condemn police raids on a Perth newspaper, describing it as an attack on free speech.
The department of Premier Alan Carpenter, a former journalist, admitted today making a complaint that led to the raid by 16 officers on the Perth newsroom of News Ltd's Sunday Times yesterday.

The fraud squad officers were trying to find who leaked information about a $16 million advertising bill for taxpayers to help get the WA government re-elected.

During the raid all exits at the Sunday Times building in Perth's inner-east were blocked and staff were subjected to bag searches when they left.

The article, written by staff reporter Paul Lampathakis and published in February, quoted "government sources'' as saying the money was to be spent on strategic advertising campaigns
*click on above link to contiune reading.*

Nicky- It was good of you to post on olo probably being tired.


There seems to be a bit of a pattern in WA.

The good news Nicky Is that these turkeys have a certain mentality.

Re Your comment The lack of a National Animal Welfare Act is what the WA magistrate ....

( Shall we wait a little while before we settle on that thought)
It would be a lot easier if your friends would speak with our qc , but anyway we can only do our best without it. {Cant force people I guess.}

Anyway I hate to be a nag and you will shoot me for saying this.but-

Even 'with' things going your way and our way a bit.

The Answer to this problem lies within the industry.

New players are a must. New laws, new undertakings, all round.

Dicky is posting at the moment for example aqbout the world health risks in regards to intensive breeding of diseases such as bird fule and long haul transport.

When you get time I would be interested in what your ideal thoughts would be on any new Animal Welfare Authority in Australia.?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 5 May 2008 1:32:30 AM
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Sorry to come in here off topic, however, I feel an obligation to inform animal lovers about the unspeakable practices of the pet food industry:

Potential ingredients in a can of pet food can include:

"Flea collars containing sodium pentobarbital used for euthanasia

"Cats and dogs"

"Unwanted insecticides and pharmaceuticals from diseased livestock
complete with plastic ID tags).

"Rotting supermarket rejects including plastic and styrofoam packaging.

"Animal parts deemed "unfit for human consumption"
heads, legs, tongues, intestines, esophagi, beaks, feathers, bones, blood, lungs, ligaments, etc.)

"Diseased and cancerous body parts from the 4 D's:
dead, dying, diseased, & disabled factory-farmed animals

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/jesse.htm

Please do not believe these practices occur only in other countries. The representatives of these industries in Australia are, as proven many times, masters of deception and illusion.

Coincidentally, I came across this news in today's West Australian (5/5/08):

"Dead Pig Infects Man"

Excerpt:

"A pet food processing plant worker has suffered toxic shock syndrome caused by an infected pig carcass. The 41 year man developed the human form of the deadly pig disease streptococcous suis while processing animals at a Melbourne plant in April last year.

"Doctors believe three more cases may have come to light since the (medical) paper was published."

I regret I do not live in Melbourne where I would happily inspect this factory - unannounced of course.
Posted by dickie, Monday, 5 May 2008 3:14:01 PM
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Some companies no longer use Australian wool because of animal rights issues. (sheep crutching & live exports)

There is also a petition floating around the WWW (from Croatia!!) asking us to stop shooting Kangaroos.
Posted by michael2, Monday, 5 May 2008 4:51:34 PM
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Hi all
Makes you wonder what really goes on at abattoirs, doesn't it? The people who were infected by the pig in Victoria are not alone; others were found in WA, I believe, but I don't know whether it was the same disease. Rough justice, I reckon.

I'm glad my dogs don't eat processed pet food.

PALE, I have absolutely no influence over what other animal groups do, because I'm not in touch with them, so any representations from me would probably be pretty worthless (forgive the pun). They have their strategies, as PALE has its own.

As far as these proposed standards go, the more individual submissions the better, but everyone must remember that they must address what is there; some of the submissions to the National Animal Welfare Bill proposed by Andrew Bartlett back in 2003 were really too non-specific and sought to address what wasn't there. That Bill probably didn't go far enough, and if people do want to comment on what is NOT provided for in these standards, it has to be done appropriately or they will "bin" the submission - it's easy for them to say that they did so because they did not address the relevant criteria. Anything beyond that could be written as an Appendix, preferably referenced to some good scientific data. For example, WHY is it unacceptable for sheep to be on trucks without water for 36 hours? Because sheep need XX litres of water a day, temperatures can soar to 40 degrees plus, to do so at the discretion of the truckie is unacceptable because the truckie has a) possibly knowledge about trucks but not animals and b) an agenda to go from point A to point B in a specified time. That sort of stuff, I reckon. Also comment on the fact that journey times are not in fact monitored by anyone so when they cross state/territory borders the journey time can be clicked back to zero.

Just a few preliminary thoughts.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 5 May 2008 7:06:24 PM
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michael2,

Welcome and thanks for your comment.
Nicky said
Hi all
Makes you wonder what really goes on at abattoirs, doesn't it?
pale comments.
Yes Nicky it most certainly does. (Love the pun). Probably come head to head in the next few weeks LONG overdue.

Re abattoirs- I will try to dig out the sub from our friends suggestions of satellite tracking and video camera`s in all plants.
Good comments on the submissions . Lets face it how many general public have the understanding and time to go through all of that. This system MUST be challanged.


Nicky said
They have their strategies, as PALE has its own.
Pale comments- Of course. Still its united we proceed against the evil and I believe devided we fall.

Make no mistake we are fighting against evil men and many more woman now who will stop at nothing to hide the cruelty of their industry.

Have you seen LandMarks new add on TV? The good country Dad with his children? Enough to make you want to throw up-- the evil bastards.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 5 May 2008 10:50:36 PM
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I have spent some time reading through this thread and I am starting to wonder if any of you have spent any time out in the country in the company of farmers and meat producers.

Most of your contact with problems seems to be through pictures and articles all which have come to you second hand. I haven't heard any mention of seeing these things firsthand.

I am an ex city person who now lives in the country and am involved with raising sheep for wool and meat.

I too had concerns about the treatment of animals on farms. But now having seen and experienced this life I have to say that it is not as bad as it is portrayed by the so called animal lovers of this world.

Everything that is done is done for very good reasons. The welfare of the animals is top most in the producers mind. Because if they aren't treated well, you will end up with a poor end product.

Farmers hate to see their animals suffering. I have seem farmers with tears in their eyes when they have to put down an animal. (and by the way they do it far quicker and with less fuss than any vet)

Yes there are those who will do the wrong thing but believe me they are few and far between.

Get real, get out there and don't believe everything you don't see with your own eyes
Posted by farmers_are_our_greatest_asset, Monday, 5 May 2008 10:55:57 PM
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farmers_are_our_greatest_asset
Welcome to this thread. I couldn’t agree with you more that farmers are our greatest asset.
The farmers you speak of our real farmers and I am please to hear a city person has joined them.
Our organization is trying to get the spot light on the people i9n the food industry that is not farmers however.
The Cooperate lots that have moved in and muscled out the real farmer’s yo9u speak of.
If we had more people moving out from the city to the country and traini8ng for migrants we could once again produce disease free cruelty free products,'

You would I suppose be aware millions of Animals are not so lucky to be raised on a farm these days and slaughtered at their local abattoir.

Farmers have been deceived by the nationals and Government for many years. Flooded their industry with cheap imports and hung them out to dry.

Put them right in the middle of taking the blame for this cruel live animal trade.
What about the intensive farm industry of birds and pigs unable to move?
There is no need to raise animals in such conditions and of course it is the reason we have bird flue and many other diseases from feed lots and other intensive cruel methods.

I hope more people will follow your lead and move to the country opening free range poultry piggeries and other products...

Good on the good farmers of this country. The ones that won’t have a bar of this cruelty.

Many of these farmers have supported free range against intensive.
It’s certainly good to know you support good farmers
As we do.
Ban Live Exports - and stop pointing the figure at the farmers. Put it at Rudd’s feet where it belongs!

Kevin Rudd How dare you let our farmers carry YOUR Shame!

You can judge a Nation by the way it treats its animals and elderly.

Kevin Rudd we won’t blame the farmers for closing the plants WE blame YOU for not acting! To reopen them and enforce some common decency inside them too!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 5 May 2008 11:22:39 PM
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Hi all
A cautious welcome to farmers_are_our_greatest asset. You should be aware that we so called "animal lovers" have in fact seen some of things we describe first hand, and nor do we condemn all farmers as a matter of course. Your views on the live export trade would be interesting.

You must be aware also that the film and documentary evidence (and I have taken some where I live which has resulted in police charges against saleyard operators and transporters) is not done by means of trick photography. You note that I have not included farmers there, although I have filmed at one property, where several hundred sheep died of starvation and the remainder were scored by a government veterinarian at "1" or emaciated, near death.

The problem I have is the different level of protection accorded to "farmed" animals, especially battery hens, meat chickens and pigs, compared to that accorded to "companion" animals. You may have noticed that compliance with "Codes of Practice" can form the basis of a defence against cruelty charges (and non-compliance can form the basis of a prosecution). But the Codes themselves expressly provide for cruelty, which is what this thread is about.

We believe that it is NOT okay to have "farmed" animals on trucks without feed or water for days at a time, and it is NOT okay to torture them with electric prods up their anuses when they have nowhere to move to in slaughterhouses. We believe that animals MUST be stunned prior to slaughter in these places (as much as some of us deplore the slaughter at all, in most cases we are reasonably pragmatic). When you say that farmers can put down an animal quicker than a vet, by what means?

Please keep contributing here, it would be nice to have views other than those of our resident Yabby and Rojo. I don't know about "greatest asset" though, assets come in many forms.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 5 May 2008 11:47:19 PM
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Hi again all
Last one on this thread for tonight.

www.liveexportshame.com has put up on its site all the links needed, and suggestions for, making a submission about these standards. I haven't read through it all yet, but it looks like a pretty good analysis to me.

If you do intend to use it, please do so as a guide only, and use your own words, it will have far more weight that way. But please also follow the format. Remember, individual submissions as well as group ones are authoratitive, and don't be emotional, be factual and cite references where you can.

The address to which submissions should be sent is there as well, as is the full document of the proposed Standards as a .pdf file. For those who would prefer a hard copy you can request it from the website as detailed at www.liveexportshame.com.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 5 May 2008 11:59:00 PM
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farmers_are_our_greatest_asset,

Some pseudynom that FAOGA, and welcome to the thread.

I trust that you will be "our greatest asset" here without condescending to presume that all who protest have never been to farming country.

Rest assured, many of us are from the country - I from pastoral country.

Indeed I have witnessed hundreds of trucks passing my home, crammed to the hilt with sheep. I have witnessed the driver in 42 degree heat, take respite in his own home for some 2 hours during the day while the sheep remain incarcerated in a truck in the searing heat, prior to having to endure another 650 kilometres travel.

I have unwittingly witnessed my "lunch" being slaughtered - its throat cut in view of the guests. Clearly farmers become desensitised to this practice and my hosts had scant regard for my small children who were distressed for weeks.

Actually the topic of this thread is the long distance transport of live animals throughout Australia. Many livestock must endure trips up to 3,000 kilometres.

It appears that the new standards are not addressing welfare issues. Certainly they are unconcerned about the environmental issues.

Many of us also object to the ocean transport of live exports. Last year, over 40,000 dead and diseased animals were dumped overboard yet these animals were certified fit by a vet prior to loading.

The farmers who debate on these animal welfare sites refuse to acknowledge these concerns and go to enormous lengths to gag us.

Perhaps you will be different? Perhaps you will be good enough to give us your expert opinion on those very specific welfare issues.

Please keep in mind that the majority of these issues are documented and photographed and all are indeed factual.
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 12:12:26 AM
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nicky, my propaganda? I present the facts as I see them, I don't expect you to interpret them the same as I do - thats what makes us all different. What you are free to do is dispute the accuracy of any info in anyway you see fit. Don't simply opt to shoot the messenger.
Dazzle me with logic and reason, not emotion laden :"children watching impassively the bull being tortured and butchered" thats the stuff a true propagandist would admire.

"This sort of behaviour is entrenched in these countries" so your solution is to ignore it? It's ok as long as Aussie sheep die at home? Except here maybe:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/outcry-for-sheep-kill-escalation/2008/01/31/1201714153326.html

I think a withdrawl from live exports on the grounds of religious slaughter would serve only to further isolate these people from western practices in the face of religious intolerance. It changes the demeanor from impassiveness to defiance. Which do you think is easiest to influence, and do you think our chilled exports would be welcomed with open arms under a defiant scenario?

pelican, I apologise - I did indeed read your sentence incorrectly. I agree we can do better on animal welfare, but that doesn't mean it should only be within our shores. Nearly all the focus of live export protestors and media is now on the treatment at the other end, especially now that the WA Emmanuel case has practically ended the campaign focus on the journey itself. The call is to remove ourselves from that market, but that wouldn't be a win for the majority of animals that aren't Australian. At least the Aust govt intends to use it's leverage for welfare gains, in a proactive way, and are not simply ignoring the issue.
Millions of sheep, cattle, goats and camels will still be slaughtered in the middle east whether Aust live exports or not, any welfare influence large or small has to be a benefit to all the animals.
Posted by rojo, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 12:33:52 AM
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Rojo said

The call is to remove ourselves from that market, but that wouldn't be a win for the majority of animals that aren't Australian.

pale comments
Oh come on Rojoyabby cut your crap we are sick of your lies. Its an evil trade and its been exposed many times as just that.

What makes it even more evil is that its taken the jobs out of this country exporting our raw material in its most valuable form.

Rojo said
I think a withdrawl from live exports on the grounds of religious slaughter would serve only to further isolate these people from western practices in the face of religious intolerance.
Pale comments
Well it just goes to show what a idiot or a person of lies you are .

Your A either telling lies or B Such a twit you dont know the Muslim People have themselves been screaming that they DO NOT require Animals Alive for relgious purpose.

As you well know they have even gone to the extent of putting out media Rs telling the Government and media to state the 'truth and tell the 'real reason' for this cruel trade.

Would you like me to post this again from the Muslim Leaders telling us they except pre stun and chilled meat and - its all about the trade dollars of the low life meddle man shipping agent.?

The Government are paid HUGE donations by this vile industry to their parties and that is the only reason they have not demanded abattoirs be reopended.
The whole world is talking about Rudd and his lies pre election regarding live exports
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 1:00:38 AM
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Rojo

Every nation has its brutes – its sadists and Australia is deemed one of the cruellest nations on earth and yet you , in your state of cruel delusion, believe we are superior and can dictate to other countries on how to be "kind" to animals?

Australians are well aware why its meat industry feigns compassion when it insists that our animals be sacrificed by transporting them to the Middle East, to be further tortured by your cruel connections.

You and your Brothers-in-Sin feign ignorance as to the Prophet’s true instructions to Muslims on the treatment of other species:

“No advantages and no urgency of human needs would justify the kind of calculated violence that is being done these days against animals, especially through international trade of livestock and meat. One of the sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad tells us: "If you must kill, kill without torture."

“Jabir told that God's Messenger forbade striking the face or branding on the face of animals....The same companion of the Holy Prophet reported him as saying, when an ass which had been branded in its face passed him by: "God curse the one who branded it."

"The Holy Prophet himself was once reprimanded by God for neglecting his horse, as the following Hadith tells us: "The Prophet was seen wiping the face of his horse with his gown (jullabiyah). When asked why he was doing that, he replied: 'Last night I had a reprimand from Allah regarding my horse for having neglected him.'

“The following Hadith forbids the disfiguration of the body of an animal.

"The Prophet said: "Do not clip the forelock of a horse, for a decency is attached to its forelock; nor its mane, for it protects it; nor its tail, for it is its fly-flap."

http://www.chai-online.org/en/compassion/islam/heritage_islam4_i.htm

There is no place here Rojo for your reasoning which is motivated by greed and vulgarity. You and the industry you defend have contributed to this nation's descent into a pit of depravity - violating all the laws of nature by breeding defenceless animals to meet a cruel and endless agony.
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 3:52:45 PM
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Nicky said

As far as these proposed standards go, the more individual submissions the better, but everyone must remember that they must address what is there; some of the submissions to the National Animal Welfare Bill proposed by Andrew Bartlett back in 2003 were really too non-specific and sought to address what wasn't there.

;That Bill probably didn't go far enough, and if people do want to comment on what is NOT provided for in these standards, it has to be done appropriately or they will "bin" the submission - it's easy for them to say that they did so because they did not address the relevant criteria.


We agree with Nickys comments that the bill didnt go far enough in 2003.

That is why Muslim Leaders and our organisation lodged this to the senate enquiry.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

Throughout this thread I will post some of the concerns and suggestions how to adress those concerns put forth by our Muslim friends RSPCA QLD and pale in a united effort.
The sub itself was lodged by the Muslim people and it was their first.

However there was no interest. Possibly as Nicky points out- hit the bin.
Well we think its trime to invite ordinaray people and not so ordinadry- to feel free to know their subs and efforts will be given serious consideration.


So we think what we should be doing is lobbying to allow public to make comments without following their rubbish rules.

Most ordinary people are not privy with Animal Welfare codes of practise, or should we say- the 'lack' of enforcable ones.
RSPCA have long insited animals are slaughtered as close to their origin as possible.
They oppose live exports. Please make your feelings known.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 7:52:47 PM
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Hi all
There doesn't seem much point in dignifying Rojo's usual pro-live export propaganda with a response, beyond pointing out that a the bull in the photo I described had just been thrown from a truck, with his front legs hobbled, had his rear leg tendons slashed, then he was slashed to death in a street gutter in full view of the accurately described "impassive" children. That's not propganda, it's filmed, documented fact.

PALE, with all due respect, the HKM submission appeared to be promoting a private company with a financial stake in providing it. Further, the Bartlett bill did not seek to address matters of transport and slaughter in any great detail, which made the submission an over-arching comment, not one which addressed the Bill itself, its content and provisions, and the Explanatory Memoranda. That's the context in which it would have been read. Committees look for what the contents of submissions relate to, not broad statements about cruelty in general.

For example, we all know that any animal (including all the species to which these Standards relate) is going to suffer if it is deprived of water and food for 48 hours plus on a truck; there is no scientific standard that these people can lay claim to that would say otherwise. Also the use of electric prods, tail docking, ear-notching, mulesing; you cannot do these things to your cat or dog, so you should not be able to do them to other animals. We all onow that animals should not be slaughtered while they are conscious. There is a wealth of information out there to support these statements.

To have a submission seriously considered, it MUST address what it purports to address; that is, these particular standards, what is in them and wrong with them and why. It is not a forum for advancing private interests (others, particularly the vivisectionist institutions made the same mistake at the time), ot stating broad opinions.

I think that's why www.liveexportshame.com has gone to so much trouble to provide a guide, and some fairly expert comment.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 11:57:57 PM
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Nicky
With all due respect I dont know how you get a private biz from a doc from =
SUBMISSION TO THE SENATE COMMITTEE FOR RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRANSPORT
ANIMAL WELFARE BILL, 2003 PRIVATE MEMBERS BILL
SUBMISSION FROM (AFIC) AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION Of ISLAMIC COUNCIL AND COUNCILS IN CONJUNCTION WITH (HKM) HALAL KIND MEATS, PALE AND RSPCA QLD

The whole point is and Andrew well knew there was a proposal to work united to STOP long haulage full stop.

HKM is a MOU where by the above parties have united to adress animal welfare.

To work with the industry of meats and not against them opposing people eating meat is the only way to improve the industry and there for animal welfare.
In return for assistance yes a small percentage is to be donated back to Animal Welfare.
100% of that is to go towards improvements and fund sensible animal welfare groups.


Surley people know by now so call self imposed codes of practise are not enforced.

Your all aware RSPCA have less than one hundred inspectors Australia wide to do dometic and farm

No wonder things havent changed in years.

The next thing that must be adressed is all this waist of time and money setting up these so called invitations to public to comment on animal welfare.

I repeat the public will neither follow all the codes or have the time.
Why on earth this farse has not be protested I dont know.

Andrew sat at a table by our invatation quite some time prior.
So he knew what this was about and that its the only answer to finding an alternative tolive exports and long haulage.

I am just wondering why people could not see a vote for them was simply a vote for ALP
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 1:00:18 AM
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PALE, that is basically how the document itself describes it. It is quite clear that, to put it crudely, money is intended to change hands.

It's also a fairly self-serving document, seemingly written with a view to coercing everyone with an interest in animal welfare to be part of this/these organization/s (the "my way or no way" approach again). Was it at that time that Andrew Bartlett withdrew his support? You said in earlier posts that Animals Australia had prevented him from having anything to do with you at all.

I've gotta say also that it contains several expressions (as well as spelling, puctuating and formatting) that I find it very hard to believe were written by "Muslim leaders" or anyone of the Islamic faith ("chooks" is one example).

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 1:21:01 AM
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pale, are you joking, I've never said they aren't able to buy our chilled meats. My point is that if we ban live eports on the basis of how the animals are treated at the other end this can only be interpreted as religious intolerence. ie they slaughter their sheep the way they do because of religion.
Having been affronted on religious grounds by the Australian people, will they then be eager to buy our chilled meats?

I don't know if we can get them to pre-stun their animals over there, but if it is acceptable to muslims here it should be there and we should be able to point that out. At the very least we can show them how to effect slaughter with minimal stress to the animal(without blinding and tendon cutting). Advice that would be worth less without our presence.

It's a difficult concept, I know.

Nicky, propaganda doesn't have to be false, it's how you present and spin. It's how you envoke emotion for a particular cause, and just to be sure throw in a few children for good measure. You don't suppose that photo was published to further a cause do you?

Aussie bull was it?

You don't have to dignify my comments with a reponse. I'll just read between the lines.
Posted by rojo, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 2:24:39 AM
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dickie, once again you're barking up the wrong tree. I have no such connections, cruel or otherwise.

I propose the exact opposite of dictating to another country- work alongside, not demand.

By whom is Aust deemed a cruel nation? the japanese whaling lobby, those who don't understand the reasoning behind mulesing?

I should hope all religions would have animal welfare in mind, it should make it all the easier to talk with them about archaic methods. Perhaps it's time another prophet came along with an update
Posted by rojo, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 2:58:16 AM
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Nicky Said

I find it hard ..
pale replies.

Well Nicky I cant see why. If you click here you will see these people along with the RSPCA QLD CEO and three of our lawyers.

Mind you watch out for that awful music that is the bushmens bible you always complain about.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Andrew is of course a libber himself and while i respect that perhaps its part of why we didnt get too far in parliment.

Mind you like I said a vote for them was a vote for ALP - Say Hey - you figure it out.

In Andrews defense he gave some good talks up in Rocki.
I think its pretty clear to us all that your real agenda on olo is to bag our people.

For two years you have trailed and flamed our organisation.

That is a matter of record which hasnt gone unnoticed.


Your anti farmer and anti muslim rants throughout this forum are also a matter of record and are quite typical as to how this problem has been handled for many years.

pale has a different approach. Thats our business.

Rojo
What utter rubbish. Perhaps you should read other things than just the mla and industry reports...
pale replies
Here we are again - A media release from Muslim Leaders-
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html
Now Rojo once again that quite clearly statedmuslims DO NOT require animals alive for religious purposes and they go on to ask the government and industry and the media to be HONEST when reporting on live exports.
" Of course that was a tall order"

It is a fact Muslims readily accept pre stun chilled meat.
Live exports only continues because the industry donate heavily to political parties to keep their vile trade going
A indusrty that exports our raw material in its most vaulable form - before value adding. A industry that benefits just a few and is reasonsible for the death of the regional areas. A indystry with the suffering of millions of animals on its hands that could have been slaughted here saving the long haulage.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 9:53:28 AM
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I keep reading this thread but get more and more confused about what it is actually about.

1. Crutching:- Would not this be a kindness to sheep avoiding and reducing fly strike? -which is VERY nasty.

2. Live exports:- I know there have been arguably a few problems with this in the past. Hasn't this been addressed with more veterinary oversight and care? I am not convinced there is no market/demand for live exports-otherwise why go to the trouble and expense?

3. Avoiding "long hall" of any farm animal in Australia is impossible due to the geography of the country. If there are concerns about this perhaps inspections and some more oversight by Primary industries might be appropriate. I have never head it raised as a problem before.

4. The slaughter of all animals (including humans !)needs to be looked at again. This is happening already with more humane killing systems being trailed in the USA.

5 Factory farming treats an animal as a commodity. But I am happy to buy pork at $5. a kilo, and and a chicken for $3-4. When I was a kid Chicken was Christmas fare only.
Perhaps meat can be labelled as eggs are "Factory farmed" or "free range".Then let the consumer/market decide.
I would have thought the vast amount of anti-biotics used by the industry would be more of a concern.

6. We kill six million kangaroos a year in Australia. They are hardly endangered. In fact they are better for the ecosystem/soil/environment than hoved animals. They should be marketed more widely.
The RSPCA has raised concerns about treatment of joies. If Australians were allowed to keep native animals as pets, it would be easy to find them a home. I am a bit puzzled why female Kangaroos are shot at all.

7. While vegetarianism might be a nice idea, teaching kids how to identify,grow,cook and eat them in schools would be a better strategy than ill-informed rants from Croatia on how Australia farms its meat.
Posted by michael2, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:59:48 AM
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pale, I'll run it by you again. Sigh. What part of "I've never said they aren't able to buy our chilled meats" did you not understand?

The Middle East chooses to buy live Australian sheep/cattle/goats. They don't have to but they do. Something about fresh "wet" meat presumably, and cost I expect. Whatever the reason, they are purchasing live animals. Legally. I don't know whether they buy them live for religious purposes or not, what I'm talking about is the actual slaughter, which has requirements of a religious nature.


After the collapse of the WA court case what other reason is there to ban live-exports other than because of moral indignation toward ritual slaughter. Animals Australia etc. are focusing their protests on how the animals are treated in the ME, with particular emphasis on the slaughter method over there. Hence the photos Nicky refers to.

Thus my postulation that a ban on live-exports can only be taken as an attack on halal slaughter, and hence Islamic religion.
Similar recent reactions to kosher slaughter have brought about claims of anti-semitism. You'll also find the Nazi's banned kosher slaughter in the 30's - they had some severe intolerance issues.

Presumably since the Muslim community can accept pre-stunned chilled meat, they should be able to accept stunning in their own countries, which would solve the live export problem once and for all. Is that easier to facilitate with a friendly relationship or a hostile one?

It's really quite simple, local abattoirs should simply outbid the live exporters for raw material. Then there would be no live exports, and the ME will be climbing over themselves to get our chilled product. A win-win, and done on transparent business principles with no religious connotations.
Posted by rojo, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 11:35:38 PM
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Dear Rojo, you are becoming as sad as Yabby. It has nothing at all to do with religious intolerance and everything to do with rightful indignation about animal abuse.Stunning in the Middle East? Why would they bother? Australia happily sends them millions of animals that they clearly enjoy brutalizing. The photos, remember, are irrefutable evidence.

Michael2, welcome again, and thanks for (some of) the wisdom. You should understand the difference between mulesing (which is what the world outrage is about) and crutching, which is what the animal welfare movement is claiming to be an alternative. Crutching is simply shearing the breach area of the sheep more frequently (which of course COSTS), whereas mulesing is cutting off flesh and skin from around its backside.

I'm saddened too that you think that intensive farming is apparently okay - it isn't. Try those sorts of methods on your cat or dog and you would be prosecuted.

Back to Rojo. I sometimes wonder why people are prepared to spend 24 hours in the water to try and save a beached whale, but care nothing for the suffering of the millions of "food animals" slaughtered day in, day out.

PALE, I can assure you (yet again - sigh!) that I have simply stated that there are certain practices in the Muslim culture of which I do not approve, and likewise farmers. If anyone is guily of "trailing" (?), I'd suggest it is PALE, and the same certainly goes for "ranting". Like everyone else, Andrew Bartlett is entitled to take whatever position he chooses, and I'd suggest that he did pretty well, and achieved a great deal in his time in the Senate, in all sorts of areas. He is also one of the most intelligent men I know. But he has stood up to the PALE bullying, so of course all that would count for nothing.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 8 May 2008 1:37:30 AM
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Rojo

I will address the two following comments

Animals Australia etc. a....
pale replies
Rojo that is absolute nonsense. Perhaps you should read more before making comments.
Fact is All Animal Welfare groups world wide including RSPCA Australia have long rallied for the trade to be closed due to transport problems and the fact there are no laws in ME as there are here.
Here is just a part of what animal welfare groups world wide argue=
During the journey from Australia to the Middle East, heat stress and diseases such as scabby mouth, pink eye and salmonellosis are common. For sheep that survive the trip, a terrible fate awaits them in the hands of countries that have no or unenforced animal welfare laws.

Sadly, it is common for sheep to be horrendously handled and slaughtered in ways that would neither be legal nor tolerated within Australia.

Rojo said

It's really quite simple, local abattoirs should simply outbid the live exporters for raw material. Then there would be no live exports, and the ME will be climbing over themselves to get our chilled product. A win-win, and done on transparent business principles with no religious connotations.

pale comments

Yes Rojo that is correct. So the answer is for the Government to reopen abattoirs that they took a large part of closing down them in favour of this barbaric in return for huge donations to their parties.

We also argue as AMIEU have for years that the jobs taken from regional areas have detroyed many a country town and their familes.
Also Rojo this thread is about codes of practise in transport so perhaps you have some informed comment to make about that.


RSPCA and Animal Welfare groups world wide do not agree with you.

You can judge a nation by the way it treats its animals and Australia is the talk of the world because of its cruelty and lack of laws to animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 8 May 2008 1:43:06 AM
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Nicky
As I said on the other thread sadly your track record of flaming pale has led to our lawyers and others asking me not to even try to exchange posts with you.

Just keep up your efforts and stop your bitch comments because it was this that Hugh Wirth and many other RSPCA officials have for years pointed out back fires on the animals.

Hugh may not be everything everyone would hope for but he was right about this. Our own CEO has spent many hours trying to reach you and your friends asking them to stop the rantings and think of the animals.

It is a fact that in the history of Animal Welfare in this country it has been undermind by this type of school girl behavoiur.

We need farmers and world wide Muslim buyers united and its about to happen soon after years of hard work. Also as you know there are many corrupt people involved in this right to to top.
Do you honestly think that does not extend to some animal welfare people.
"Think Again."
"Do not be so naive and blind Nicky."

Rojo
Just to add to your comments on Animals Australia you make yourself look foolish.
FACT is they exposed what the Government are hiding. The Government acted on their evidence.
How discusting a lady x police woman had to there to do their job for them'.
The whole world is standing by their findings and sooner or later there will be laws to stop cruelty to Animals - including intensive farming.
So get used to it.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:27:47 AM
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Pale

Settle down. Your attacks on Nicky are unjustified. Please refrain from becoming unreasonable when others decline your demands to assist you in your commercial ventures with your Muslim affiliates, in establishing abattoirs in Australia.

I reiterate that your Directorship of Halal Kind Meats, is creating a conflict of interest .

I speak for myself here and state that philosophically, I do not find it desirable to be directly involved in the slaughter of animals as you are, though as I have previously stated, I am not a vegetarian. However, I hasten to add that the more one learns about the abominable treatment of livestock in this country, the more repulsed I am becoming when viewing the contents on my dinner plate.

You have raised this thread in view of the proposed amendments to domestic transport standards for livestock and that is commendable.

We are also agreed that the transport of live animals overseas is inexcusable and that we need to point out here that Rojo and Yabby are peddling propaganda in defence of this disgraceful industry.

The way animals are being treated, both here and in the Middle East has nothing whatsoever to do with religion and similar to other terrorist activities, these brutes are exploiting Islam.

The Muslims in this trade will need to deal with their conscience since I have no doubt that Muslims who abide by peaceful Islam would be objecting to these misfits using the Prophet's name (peace be upon him), as an excuse to torment and inflict cruelty on defenceless animals.

I have many devout Muslims residing in my area. I have not witnessed these people cutting the throat of an animal in their back yards. They, like mainstream Australians, buy chilled meat from a butcher.

contd.....
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 8 May 2008 9:15:39 AM
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B/forward:

It's an established fact that the Middle East countries purchase tonnes of chilled and frozen meats from Australia, slaughtered in appropriate abattoirs.

Excerpts from Arabian Business on an Australian supplier:

"We (Mitchell Meats) have two abattoirs and we're now processing both frozen and chilled meat for the retail market and wholesale markets in the Middle East. Growth has been strong, and interest has been strong right across all sectors."

"Lyon highlights the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Libya as particularly strong markets in the region, although Fletcher is also supplying other countries such as Bahrain, Oman, Qatar and Kuwait.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/498847-producers-discover-value-of-halal-meat

"Rest assured if we advised that we would no longer export live animals to the ME, the Middle East would resort to purchasing our chilled and frozen meats exclusively."

The argument that Rojo and Yabby put up is fallacious since other nations, anxious to supply the ME with live animals, are rampant with foot and mouth disease.

Foot and mouth disease is reported in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America. While Pan Asia Type O virus strain caused the 2001 outbreaks in Europe and has been reported in many countries, the Asia1 type strain has recently been reported in a number of Asian countries.

The practice of permitting filthy cargo ships into Australian waters these days, which transport diseased, live animals around the world, places Australia's biosecurity at risk and the inefficiences of the AQIS are well known.

Pale, you advised Nicky:

"For two years you have trailed and flamed our organisation."

I have been on this forum for over two years and I see no evidence to support your accusation. Your outbursts do little to encourage participants to engage in dialogue with you.

Nicky's information has been most valuable. She is extremely well researched and helpful and has indeed moved this debate forward.

Let's keep it on track Pale. Attacking those who speak up on behalf of defenceless animals redirects you to the side of the opposition who are here for one reason - maximum profits and the violation of the rights of sentient beings.
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 8 May 2008 10:49:42 AM
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*Clearly farmers become desensitised to this practice and my hosts had scant regard for my small children who were distressed for weeks.*

Dickie dear, I cried as a 5 year old, when my dad shot a poor little
rat. Farming teaches you about the realities of life, of birth and
death, that life is not based on fairy floss, as those movies tell
you. At some point we all have to learn. If you still have not
learnt, that is your problem, not my problem. Tippytoeing through
the tulips is all very romantic, but not reality. Get used to it.

*whereas mulesing is cutting off flesh and skin from around its backside.*

Nicky, time to quit the propaganda and lies. Either you are stupid
or as dishonest as Peta. When is flesh removed during mulesing?
Yes some skin is removed, as it is removed by circumcision.
Crutching does not solve the problem, it reduces the problem, that
is all. But then it seems you have never actually crutched a sheep,
seen mulesing performed, so are just an another uniformed and
ignorant commentator, or a Peta member, where honesty has little
to do with the story that they preach.

The OLO ducks club of vegetarian fanatics who hate farmers, is
alive and well!

Rojo, thanks for posting some really rational thinking, but some
of the ducks in this little club are either too stupid or too
deceptive to be able to reason.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 8 May 2008 2:58:40 PM
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Dickie

HKM is a project working underr a mou for Animal Welfare. It is just one of many and the mou with Muslims is regarding Animal Welfare.

In case you have missed it Nicky has attacked pale on a very regular basus and I am only passing on a request from others. Those others happen to be lawyers and part of pales board. They say Enough is Enough. I am the messager.


We have a big enough job on our hands with side swipes at people who are working to help animals.

Yes we understand killing animals at all is a big issue for some people and also groups.'
We also understand that unless this is tackled from another angle live exports will grow as it has over the years.
With respect to you Dickie your posts are well informed and your dedication is fantasic.
However I am still sort of hearing( I think)? pale assisting farmers to set up plants with muslims goes against our grain etc.
Well Dickie thats a pity because its only by working on the alternative will we stop live exports.

i also appreciate you took the trouble to contact us and was both impressed and delighted with your dedication and knowledge.
Lets agree to work united and stop taking swipes at pale. There for we wont have to respond. How about that.? I appreciate that your not doing it. So do the others.
Its certainly not helping the animals by Nicky displaying disunity amoungst groups. Nor is it helping for people to say it goes against Animal Welfare organisation to discuss p0lants.
Simply put. We Have to if we are to improve conditions.
Thanks for all you Do From All of us.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:14:32 PM
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*The argument that Rojo and Yabby put up is fallacious since other nations, anxious to supply the ME with live animals, are rampant with foot and mouth disease.*

Nothing fallacious at all Dickie, just ignorance on your part.
FMD comes and goes, there are many countries in the world.

I remind you that Brazil is a global beef exporter and becoming
a global live exporter, 250'000 live cattle a year and rising.

If you read this week's Farm Weekly you will note that Wellard's
Siba have 350 million$ invested in better ships etc, so are not
just going to scrap them to make you happy. Some very old ships
ply the Brazil trade, Wellards will simply tap into South America
for sheep and cattle. Meantime the Saudis will grow what they
need in Africa.

Closing your eyes, stamping your feet, claiming your morals, is
not going to change the world and make reality go away, much
as you would wish.

Something I have learnt in life, its not a perfect world and never
will be, so best to make the best of what you have and accept reality.

You girls float on in dream world and all you will achieve is
shoot Australia in the proverbial foot, a lose-lose situation all
round. But then the animal liberation movement, including
Dickie and Nicky, will only be happy when farmers stop farming,
as both of you have explained to us, on the various threads.

Dream on darlings.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:28:20 PM
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Dickie
Sorry I couldnt fit anymore. Of course nickys information has been "most vaulable" and we have acknowledged that a million times.
I think you two girls could take over olo postings and leave us to other issues. TBO
As I pointed out she has facts figures ships etc in her head where I have to always stop and think - or worse still look it up. I fully agree to work as you suggested- For the Animals leaving out anything else.
However Dickie I can not go back on intruction that were in fact clear orders so lets leave it at that.

I had best see what your old buddy yabbs is up to before I run out of space. perhaps hes come up with a new idea for the sheep you told us about wearing the lipy and nightie:)
Yabbs said
Dickie dear, ...

pale comments

Yabby thats awful. I am sure any kid would remember it. It would take an 'awful lot' to forgive . I dont know what to say to you because you will think I am taking the mickey out of you.
I cant of course bag your Dad because that would be wrong.
I cant condone what he did either.
Has it ever occured to you that rat got your attention and was friend in place of him.? He wanted the love perhhaps you gave that rat?

Some people who cant express the feelings and love reacting in upsetting ways.
Anyway it sounds like you turned into a real survier and I look forward to putting you guys out of business:)

( not the farmers- just the live export Agents.

Yo Yabby- Just one for the road- You cant say the x police lady Lyn White working with Animals Australia didnt expose the Government and the live exporters - because the Government ACTED on that.
Now you said you wanted conditions improved so you should be supporting her
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:34:13 PM
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"Nothing fallacious at all Dickie, just ignorance on your part.
FMD comes and goes, there are many countries in the world.

"I remind you that Brazil is a global beef exporter and becoming
a global live exporter, 250'000 live cattle a year and rising."

Yabby. Why do the descriptions "Imposter" and "Charlatan" come to mind when I read the swill you bombard us with?

It's for certain that you would not be the least concerned that Brazil has a history of foot and mouth disease. Many countries are reluctant to import from that country. Other countries in proximity to Brazil are also infected with FMD such as Bolivia, Ecuador and Venezuela - in fact most of South America, from a glance.

250,000 cattle eh? You're such an imposter that you've failed to mention the 5 million live sheep exported from Australia last year. Do the Brazilians have 5 million sheep for export each year - free from FMD?

And would the Arabs prefer to consume meat that has the potential for FMD and other diseases that these animals are more susceptible to? I think not.

http://old.thejakartapost.com/detailcity.asp?fileid=20080508.D05&irec=4

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/foot_in_mouth_130552

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/monitoring/pdf/fmd-brazil.pdf

http://sl.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/news/wellard-goes-global/766617.aspx

Keep on making a goose of yourself Yabby. Exposing your lies and deception all go to a good cause - that is allowing the public to judge for themselves and for them to realise that you and your consortium are an avaricious rabble of unethical moral pygmies.
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 8 May 2008 6:08:53 PM
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Hi all
Dickie, thanks so much for your support. The tirades from PALE, along with the veiled threats of legal action for which it has no standing wear very thin at times. As for the "lawyers" and multitude of members, we don't see much evidence of them.

I have provided what I thought was valuable information, particularly in the context of these Standards, and the WA court case, but quite frankly I agree with you, and find PALE's involvement with what are clearly slaughter operations in the commercial sense, in which money obviously is to change hands, a very clear conflict of interest. It would be interesting to know if the RSPCA was also to be paid some form of royalties (as it is by battery hen farmers in NSW), but so far as anyone seems to know, none of it ever got off the ground, so I guess that's moot.

I also expressed concerns about the submission suppposedly written to the Senate RRAT Committee by AFIC being a bit improbable. It's also irrelevant, because it did not address any substantive part of the proposed National Animal Welfare Bill (back in 2003) at all, and that's why I have been trying to provide some direction about submissions addressing these proposed Standards. That submission simply ordered the world at large to contact HKM as some sort of authority.

Having been involved with politicians, I know what these people will bother reading and what they will "bin" and it would be a pity to give them the excuse to do so without supporting submissions with facts rather than emotions (much as we might want to).

I don't think I'll even bother addressing Yabby's usual claptrap tonight (that gets pretty tedious too), and the same goes for PALE and its wild claims, and silly, unbalanced threats.

BTW, what is "flaming"?

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 8 May 2008 8:14:01 PM
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*Many countries are reluctant to import from that country.*

Err Dickie, according to one article that you posted, despite some
FMD in some isolated regions, 180 countries still bought 2.7 million
tonnes of beef from Brazil. They are the largest beef exporter
in the world and actively sell in the ME.

So back under the rock you crawl :)

Sheep? China has more sheep then Australia. They sell both mutton,
lamb and live to the ME. Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, etc etc, all run
goats, sheep, cattle. Africa is a large place, then Asia. The
ME has money, they will buy what they want and won't be blackmailed
by you lot.

250'000 cattle in meat terms Dickie, is about the same as 2.5
million sheep. Brazil has 160+ million cattle.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 8 May 2008 8:30:59 PM
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"So back under the rock you crawl:)"

Thank you so much Yabby. May I again offer you that one way air ticket back to the Old Dart? That would be much more comfortable then the 10 shilling cattle ship you arrived on from the Motherland. But as you rightfully said: "It's not a perfect world" and I, the fourth of six generations to have lived in rural Western Australia, must occasionally endure the loudmouth, swaggering braggarts who arrive here to pompously dictate to Aussies on how to suck eggs.

And by coincidence, that was a friend of mine you abused the other day. He related the story to me about taking his kids through unknown hillbilly territory in WA:

'Daddy, Daddy, What is that man doing ?'

'Well, I'm not exactly sure, my angels..'

'Oh, But Daddy, we want to know' chorused the children.

So 'Daddy' parks up, and calls down to a hillbilly called Yabby, bent over a sheep.

'I say, Country Yokel-Type person, are you shearing that sheep ?'

The Yokel replies 'Whaatt D'Yer Zay, M'boy ?'

'I said, are you shearing that sheep ?'

To which the the yokel Yabby shouts, 'No - bugger off and find yer own !'
Posted by dickie, Friday, 9 May 2008 12:00:31 AM
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nicky, Of course AA and whoever else bothers to go to the ME are "doing it for the animals", and not to deliberately stir religious intolerance. The simple issue is that the excuse AA now pushes for the ending live exports is the "barbaric" slaughter at the other end. Either AA is tolerant of halal slaughter or it isn't. It's quite plain it isn't, but instead of improving the standard of game they want to take the bat and ball home.

Put yourself in the other sides shoes, here you are slaughtering the sheep in the name of Allah as you have been instructed through time and tradition, and some organisation labels you barbaric. Barbaric for doing what you believe is right.
Explain how that would not be offensive, and how they should actually be thankful live exports are banned.

When you say brutalizing, you are conveying that they enjoy inflicting pain, or get their kicks out of shedding blood. I don't see it that way, they are just going about life as their parents did and their parents before them. Sure it could be better.
I'm supportive of any attempt to improve slaughter methods, I don't see banning live exports being anything other than detrimental to that goal.

The big issue is that Animals Australia (if it's anything like peta) doesn't want people to eat meat period. It's a conflict of interest when it comes to really improving slaughter practices.

cont'd
Posted by rojo, Friday, 9 May 2008 12:18:01 AM
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Well Dickie, Edward de Bono wisely pointed out that the mind
works by association, its not so good at rational processes.

Sounds to me like you need a pet sheep there to keep you
company. We provide ram lambs for very lonely little old
ladies, at a fee of course!

That side of the business has been quite profitable, far
better money then putting them on a boat. You are free to
hire one, for your pleasure/companionship. We are always
open for business.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 9 May 2008 12:21:21 AM
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The whale question is an interesting observation. My guess is along the lines of appeal. Beached sharks don't get the same treatment: http://www.manlydaily.com.au/article/2008/04/03/9505_news.html

The long life span, the freedom whales enjoy and their sheer size elicits admiration amongst we humans. That and relative rarity.
Of course having said that, for some nations whale is still part of the menu.

When we eat farmed animals, we eat those whose destiny is to be food, whose life comes to an end quickly and efficiently(not asphyxiating and dessicating on a beach), and are not rare by any stretch of the imagination.
You see it as suffering, others see it as life with purpose.

My turn: Why do animal activists see a lion with jaws clamped around an antelopes throat after a heart-pumping highly stressful and injurious chase(for the antelope mainly) as perfectly fine "because it's nature", yet can't accept that people would choose to eat meat that has been slaughtered with comparativly little trauma? Even though it is perfectly natural for humans to eat meat too.

paleif, I'm sorry you can't grasp my comments on AA etc, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not the best communicator of my thoughts, so it's my fault too.
Posted by rojo, Friday, 9 May 2008 1:07:23 AM
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I haven't posted for a while, but have been reading the thread. What is really unhelpful is the slanging match that seems to be going on.

As for persons with 'vested interests' putting forward their point of view and experiences, surely that is a good thing when addressing an issue of concern? All who contribute on this thread have vested interests. Even if only as a consumer.

I am not a vegetarian. I enjoy my steak. Nevertheless, I am not OK with eating meat from animals that have be inhumanely treated. An argument that maintaining high standards means meat becoming more expensive instead ever more cheaper, is not rational. I'd say that the vast majority of people, of whatever philosophical belief, would prefer to eat smaller cuts of meat if eating it can be done in good conscience.

Australia is well overdue with classifying meat to signify the farming practices like with eggs.

None of the arguments for live export are in any way convincing. Just because somebody supposedly much worse than us is willing to continue selling life meat stock does not make it right. It is just not necessary in this day and age to cart life animals on excessively long journeys over a long time anymore.

It is a red herring to imply that it will be construed as being against Islamic religious practices. Not every argument can simply be reduced to pro- or anti-Islam. Here in Australia we obviously have the capacity to provide kosher or halal meat.

This argument is against butchering practices that do not comply with particular requirements and subjecting animals to excessively long journeys in necessarily very confined spaces. Why would farmers or meat eaters not be on the same page here with Animal Welfare lobbyists?

Requirements and standards for religious reasons are no more relevant or deserving of respect than those expected by meat eaters like myself, farmers who are proud of their product or Animal Welfare lobbyists.
Posted by yvonne, Friday, 9 May 2008 10:58:36 AM
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Rojo Said

paleif, I'm sorry you can't grasp my comments on AA etc, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I'm not the best communicator of my thoughts, so it's my fault too.
Pale replies
Rojo I hear you but remember we are trying hard to work with these people united.

Rojo there are millions of people who are members of Animal Welfare groups world wide. I refuse to believe many of those would not agree with our method or theory - Some of them would probably say to themselves- Hey that sounds like something that might make the long trips turn into shorter trips and ebable Animals to be slaughtered as close to origen as possible..

bTW your wrong about Muslims not accepting pre stun meat.

I have posted the Muslim Leaders request for people to 'read' a and take onboard that they readily accept pre stun meat many times.

I will post it here again in case you didnt see it-
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Also Rojo it isnt fair to call everybody extreme. Look at the post below you. That is a fair and reasonable comment dont you agree?
Well Yvonne you have got our interest.
Someone like yourself could do a great deal of benefit for both animals and farmers.
yvonne,
Whoever you are your right an we apoligise. Sometimes its hard not to raise to the bait. We are the biggest bunch of animals lover that you could ever meet.
Sure we are lobbying to reopen plant but only because we cant stand to see the long trips. Most of us litterly cant sleep. Any funds donated bgack - if ever. Go straight to Animal Welfare to put back into improving conditions in trucks plants slaughtering equiptment.
Not one cent! do we want I swear. Trying also to have video footage and gas introcuded etc.
I do hope you will post again. We would be interested to read more of your thoughts on how we can all improve the lives of these poor creatures.
Happy to follow your sensible lead.
Out of space Yabbs- Catch you later:)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 9 May 2008 3:24:09 PM
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Interesting today on the NSW ABC country hour, an rspca rep was giving her view on the resumption of live exports to Egypt. The only mention was slaughter practices in Egypt, no mention of boats,the length of journey, pink eye - just the slaughter practices.

Don't get confused, I'm not saying religious intolerance is the motive for ending live exports as with Nazi's and kosher bans, only that it will be viewed as such. ie Brigette Bardot recently.
The public campaign to end live exports is now squarely on slaughter practices, halal slaughter practices to be precise. With such a narrow focus, it is hard to see how it can not be construed as religious intolerance or racism. Terms like "barbaric" and "brutalizing" are being used to describe what these people feel is the right thing to do.
If we want to effect change for ALL animals we need to work with the ME, not as domineers.
Posted by rojo, Friday, 9 May 2008 7:46:08 PM
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"The public campaign to end live exports is now squarely on slaughter practices, halal slaughter practices to be precise."

Rojo

I confess I am unable to endure anymore of your fraudulent and sickening propaganda.

I shall no longer engage in debate on this thread.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/02/12/eaanim112.xml
Posted by dickie, Friday, 9 May 2008 10:00:50 PM
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Dickie, the British and rest of the EU are of course free to open up
their markets to Australian mutton and lamb, slaughtered right here
in Australia. Right now we are largely denied access to those
markets, for reasons of EU self interest it seems.

In that case the higher value obtained would mean not having to
send so many animals to the Middle East. You are free to lobby the
EU to do the right thing here! If they refuse, then it would only
be fair to describe them as hypocrites.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 9 May 2008 10:24:09 PM
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Hi all
I'm probably going to join with Dickie and leave this thread now. It has more than run its course and I'm tired of dealing with total ignorance.

Rojo, your arguments become more and more fatuous. Animals who are predators in the wild do not have the cognition to understand brutality, and eat as they do to survive. Humans are supposed to be a "higher order" species, and certainly should have the ability to understand that transporting animals half way around the world to simply butcher them for a few extra bucks is morally repugnant. That is clearly beyond you and Yabby, unfortunately. But sometimes you have to wonder who are the "animals" on this planet. Humans are the worst, most obscene predators the world is ever likely to have to recover from and the "livestock industry" can take much of the credit for that.

It hardly seems worth bothering to re-state the case about religious intolerance. This has absolutely noting to do with religion (read some excerpts of the Q'uran), and everything to do with animal abuse that is clearly entdemic in these cultures. You obviously lack the perspicacity to make that distinction either.

Dickie has pointed out as well that 40,000+ dead animals (or maybe not quite dead) thrown off ships or into macerators is not acceptable as "collateral damage".

Whay sort of human beings are you, that you find all this not only acceptable, but justifiable?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 9 May 2008 11:20:51 PM
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Rojo
"NO" That is not True = This is what RSPCA said=

AAPhttp://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=481026
The RSPCA rejects industry assurances cattle will not be ill-treated.

"If (abattoir workers) are not monitored by an Australian official ... then there is absolutely no guarantee that these animals will be slaughtered humanely," the RSPCA's scientific officer (farm animals) Melina Tensen told AAP.

"We don't think the trade to Egypt should be resumed, the trade with all importing countries should cease.

The animals should be slaughtered in Australia and the meat exported to Middle Eastern destinations, Ms Tensen said.

"Live export was problematic because the animals were poorly treated during the journey and at the abattoir."

They were subject to heat stress, pneumonia and starvation and sometimes fell ill.

Animals were slaughtered without being stunned first, which the RSPCA opposed, Ms Tensen said.
Link Below From Compassion in World Farming tells it the way it is also.
http://www.ciwf.org.au/ciwfuk080215.htm

Please dont do things like that. Dont try to make out its about religion. Dont try to be dishonest. RSPCA have been lobbying for years to stop long distance travel. "ITS JUST CRUEL"

Yabby said
The British and rest of the EU are of course free to open ....
pale comments.
That will be done on the back of an export accreditation issue which
reminds me=
Maybe its a good time for the farmers to start getting involved. You cant sit in the same of mind set of others doing it for you.
This is the real problem. The mind set of farmers must change. Dont wait for Government to do it MLA or FF or anybody else Do it yourselves.
This is how you got these middle men in the first place.
For goodness sake what do you need a middle man for?
middle men are just that- Someone passing something on.
Get out and get direct contacts i9nto Halal accreditations. If I were you I would make it snappy before you know who does.

llah.nsf/75b3202912e2d4f6482570c400031dbc/a7a5341d58a0960f48256eef002e4eb2?OpenDocument
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 10 May 2008 6:16:36 AM
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I'm new to this site, so I apologise in advance for any misunderstandings. It seems to me that there are two passionate sides to this debate. Two people, Yabby and Rojo, seem to be posting with a degree of arrogance against the opposing views of Pale, Dickie and Nicky. So that I can get a full understanding, Rojo and Yabby, could you please confirm what you appear to be saying, that the awful cruelty we have seen several times on reputable documentary programs (The 7.30 Report and Landline in particular) is perfectly okay as long as you can make money out of it? It's not as if that material could have been faked, after all. If you do think it's okay, why do you insult and patronise those who disagree with you? Why not argue politely and rationally your case?
I have looked at the websites of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Livecorp and Meat and Livestock Australia for a reasonable argument for shipping all these animals half way around the world, and there doesn't seem to be one beyond the financial, and that doesn't seem to justify what happens to these animals on long journeys and especially in the countries to which they are sent. If there is somewhere else I should be looking, please tell me. Especially, there does not seem to me to be any possible justification for sending cattle to Egypt again, given the comments from the RSPCA.
Regards from Alexandra
Posted by Alexandra0814, Saturday, 10 May 2008 7:08:33 PM
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Alexandra, you seem to be showing some bias, for IMHO Rojo is in fact extremely
polite, unlike some of the insults and abuse that has been thrown at farmers, from
the animal liberation brigade on OLO. In my own case, I prefer to be blunt, say
it like it is. You call it arrogance, I call it self assured :)

Yes there is documented cruelty that was filmed in the ME, as there is documented
cruelty, that was filmed in Australia. There is documented cruelty going on in
some marriages. In each of these cases, it pays to deal with and address those specific
cases and try to improve things, not for instance ban all marriages or close down all
Australian meatworks. The same principle applies to the ME.

Clearly there are positive outcomes from the Egypt story. The trade was banned for
a couple of years or so, meantime a new abattoir has been built, with new equipment, which complies with international standards, in other words far
better then what they had before. It’s a step in the right direction. Australia has
clearly had an influence, which is good for all animals slaughtered in the ME,
for they matter too, not just Australian ones. I prefer to see progress through one
little step at a time, then no progress at all. Yes its an imperfect world, but as long
as it’s a bit better then it was yesterday, that is what we call progress.

We could in fact be doing far more in the ME. I have asked our OLO animal
libbers for support, but they are not interested
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 10 May 2008 8:26:26 PM
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Hi Alexandra0814, I'm afraid asserting ones viewpoint and being confident with the validity of that viewpoint can come over as arrogance, it's not my intention nor my nature. Sometimes frustration at others thinking processes can lead to sharpish comments. I do for the record not generally insult without provocation, but sadly resort to the same level on occasion.

Sometimes I jump to wild conclusions eg, say I noticed that you signed your name at the bottom of your post and don't indent new paragraphs, like another poster here does, and then had a memory spark(set off by Yabby) about a similar occurance with a then "jenna" nearly a year ago.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=570&page=12
I would then say Hi Nicky.
That would all be unfair because it is a weak assumption, so Hi Alexandra. And apologies to Nicky because that was awfully impolite.

Alexandra, I don't condone any mistreatment of animals and having to blind cattle or cut tendons is a symptom of inadequate facilities, not a symptom of the brutality or barbarism that pale dickie and Nicky attribute to Middle Eastern peoples. My postulation is that if change is to be effected for the millions and millions of non-Australian animals slaughtered in the ME then it is better to do that by working with the ME rather from a judgemental,over bearing position. I also find the "support" for chilled trade a bit hollow from those who oppose the exploitation of animals in any way.

cont'd
Posted by rojo, Saturday, 10 May 2008 11:10:26 PM
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Hello to you both and thank you for your answers. Rojo, I thought you had to put your name at the end because I didn't realise that it came up automatically. I have been called Alex before but never Nicky for what that's worth. That is not to say that I don't disagree with a lot of what Nicky and Dickie say. I read that there is indeed a new abattoir built in Egypt but it is said to be for Australian cattle so how does that benefit animals from other countries? And also, this is a stated requirement at this point but Egypt also signed other similar papers and it has not kept to the agreements it made in those. So what guarantees are there with these requirements? What does Australia do when they don't? Nothing, it seems, it just keeps sending animals anyway.
Someone commented somewhere that all the countries in the Middle East have signed up for the International Organisation of Animals Health treaties. Since it seems that they don't do what they say either, it seems that there are no guarantees to be had. Yabby I reckon you are pushing uphill about what you call animal libbers getting involved in these countries too. Isn't that what the Australian government says it is doing?
Since my name will apparently appear anyway ...
Posted by Alexandra0814, Saturday, 10 May 2008 11:30:06 PM
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A great deal of focus is placed on "profit" from livestock by those whose pockets are not affected in the least. The simple thing they could do is set up a fund to buy the sheep by outbidding live exporters. We would then know how far financial rhetoric stretches.
I do find the support for "chilled meat" exports a bit hollow from organisations diametrically opposed to exploiting animals.

Anyway great to see a new face as we lose others.

dickie, debate isn't the word I would use to describe our communications. Speaking of propaganda how about that Canadian "TSE" case?
Australia stacks up well in your telegraph article, those Brazilians are the ones to watch. And we use purpose built ships, not containers.
I know you well enough to know that you would not rest until you proved my fraudulence, if you really thought I was.

Nicky, yes the old cognition argument, but obviously the people we're talking about don't have the same cognition as you either, so by your logic it isn't wrong for them too. I think you miss the true question, but no matter-you plan to disappear.

If you believe AA then these animals that die on board are the "lucky" ones, but I don't know what the focus is about the ones that don't make it, their future was short anyway.

I'm sorry you can't accept the truth(as I genuinely see it), and I would have been happy to consider any rational argument, but I just don't think calling my arguments fatuous or propaganda or whatever has any standing in relation to those comments. I can take it if I'm wrong, but don't slight my views just because you have a different ideology. Withdrawing is probably for the best.
Posted by rojo, Sunday, 11 May 2008 12:02:36 AM
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Hi all

Yes, it is great to see a new "face" - welcome, Alexandra. As well as the websites you have visited for information, I'm guessing you have also seen liveexportindefensible by Animals Australia and www.liveexportshame.com. The latter provides some interesting statistical information which is referenced to the ABS (Australian Bureau of Statistics).

Our resident mouthpieces for MLA and LiveCorp (Yabby and Rojo) do not care much for that information, because it clearly shows how little the live export trade is worth in comparison with the frozen meat trade to all the countries to which Australia exports live animals - go figure.

Rojo, your attack on Dickie's communication abilities is a little unfair over a simple typo and you know it. Dickie's communications are factual and referenced and you know that too, you just don't like it. Yabby, you describe my communications as "emotove"; I think that demonstrates self-expression of a higher order than that to which you can lay claim. Also, I can't remember whether it was this or the other thread (as they have crossed over a little) on which you advised me to stick to knitting - firstly, I never learned how to knit; I've never had the time or the inclination, and secondly, you (usually) have to do it with wool, as I understand it. A bad analogy.

Alexandra, I hope you continue to visit us, at least the debate is fairly lively here!

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 11 May 2008 12:30:35 AM
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pale, I can only tell you what I heard on the radio. Sorry. The bit that went to air, and the bit I commented upon.
About 5 mentions of slaughter to 2 of transport in your link to a newspaper article. And no pinkeye.

yes the lobbying for years has been about the journey, it appears to be second fiddle now.

I can assure you and other readers I am not trying to be dishonest, but admit am prone to make mistakes on occasion. You and everyone else are quite welcome to correct anything that I've said if it is wrong, but you'll need to back it up with some evidence, I try to.

If non-stun slaughter has nothing to do with religious tradition, then it should be easy to get the ME to use stunning and most of the current objections to live export would end there and then. I feel there is some discontent, reading pieces like this:
http://www.halaljournal.com/artman/publish/article_165.shtml
Posted by rojo, Sunday, 11 May 2008 12:54:14 AM
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Alex, you seem to be making the same mistake that Nicky does, expecting
perfection from day 1. Life does not work that way. Calling everyone in the
ME a bunch of barbarians and savages and walking away, which is what
Nicky does, won’t work either and will change nothing.

I accept the imperfect world that we live in. Change comes about through
many small steps, which over time add up to big steps.

I can’t think of a country on earth which has stuck to every agreement that it
has signed, to the word. That includes the ME and Australia. There are few
guarantees in life, apart from death. If Egypt blatantly ignores the agreements
reached, then Australia is free to stop cattle exports once again, at a future date.

Sure I’m pushing uphill about animal libbers getting involved in improving
conditions for non Australian animals in the ME. For most of these organisations
are run by people who are vegans and veggies, some who claim that animal welfare
and livestock farming and eating are mutually exclusive. That is simply not the
case, but like religion, the rational does not seem to matter when it comes to
ideology.

The rational argument suggests that there is much that could be done to improve
animal welfare in both Australia and the ME. Australia is quite advanced in coming
up with simple and cheap equipment, to handle livestock more humanely. We
also have a huge foreign aid budget. There is no reason why a tiny portion of that
could not be used to achieve a win-win situation for all, including non Australian
animals. The veggie brigade should be thrilled by that concept, but clearly they
are not interested.

Nicky, the meat processing industry are free to buy all livestock
before they go on any boat. If there is so much profit to be made
for Australia, processing locally, then surely they can afford to
pay farmers a share of that profit, in terms of the price of livestock.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 11 May 2008 8:00:17 AM
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Rojo said
Interesting today on the NSW ABC country hour, an rspca rep was giving her view on the resumption of live exports to Egypt.

The only mention was slaughter practices in Egypt, no mention of boats,the length of journey, pink eye - just the slaughter practices.
+
pale, I can only tell you what I heard on the radio. Sorry. The bit that went to air, and the bit I commented upon.
About 5 mentions of slaughter to 2 of transport in your link to a newspaper article. And no pinkeye.

Pale replies- ( Or the blue tongue across the creek)

No Rojo thats ok. Thanks I did pick up on it and appreciate it.

In 'some ways' we think alike. We thank you for that information .- Umm Very interesting information.

Yup you would think they would have their toughest bully blokes out front throwing punches and screaming into that microphone.

Well just for the record PALE in conjunction with RSPCA QLD IS complaining about the long trips.

I am pleased you used the Halal Journal links but something tells me you havent paid you ninty dollars:) However Rojo please dont start throwing up the Brazils etc until people actually understand it all because I didnt put it up to cause confusion. We have to take things one step at a time.
Yes Mohamed said aparrently 'somebody' had done some thing in Germany.
Our response to that is that we will have to run everything as well past Dr. Temple Grandin I would encourage all to watch video Link of Dr Grandin.


crimihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoNErsJNPzwnal.
Alexandra
Welcome and may we say on a first post "Well Said" By Your following comment=

Especially, there does not seem to me to be any possible justification for sending cattle to Egypt again, given the comments from the RSPCA.
Regards from Alexandra
Posted by Alexandra0814, Saturday, 10 May 2008 7:08:33 P

Ar Sorry Rojo But we are all for reopnening plants in Australia - and eventually using gas.
Catch you next post.
I best give that Yabbs a bit of attention next time:)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 11 May 2008 8:24:41 AM
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"I don't think people care about anything until it costs them a dollar. "

Plainly disproved by the length of, and passion in, this thread/topic.
Posted by michael2, Sunday, 11 May 2008 9:02:22 AM
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Alexandra

I know this is a crash course but one of the most valuable comments on this thread is this one posted by our own Yabbs.

We are pushing for Animal Welfare to get involved more in the industry because it’s the only way to ‘make sure' human practices ARE ‘followed’
Nothing written on a piece of paper beats on hands kind proper management.



To can make improvements work 'for them' - instead of blaming them we are on a winning horse. (Expression only girls)

So Alexandra read the post below and read it again- then meditates on it.
One could say a rare insight from our old Yabbs :)



Here are Yabbs sensible comments= Look behind the words and see the beginning of ...>
Yabby Said =
Dickie, the British and rest of the EU are of course free to open up
Their markets to Australian mutton and lamb, slaughtered right here
In Australia. Right now we are largely denied access to those
Markets, for reasons of EU self interest it seems.

In that case the higher value obtained would mean not having to
Send so many animals to the Middle East. You are free to lobby the
EU to do the right thing here! If they refuse, then it would only
Be fair to describe them as hypocrites.
Posted by Yabbs, Friday, 9 May 2008 10:24:09 PM

pale contiunes
Now we have got all eyes on diseases with Global Warming so let’s pick up and run with that encouraging this Government to support Free Range Farms and Ag Schools teaching our tree change Aboriginal Migrants and just the office bloke wants a life style change.

Remember this is an honorable thing to do to step up and put the cruel operators out of business.

Thats our OP.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 11 May 2008 9:56:52 AM
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pale, your tube link didn't work for me but I did read some of Grandin's work .
http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.htmlisc/an/an_slaughter.htm

who is the "we" in reopening plants, and does this refute my opinion that AA, peta, viva and the like do not ultimately want to have slaughter of any kind.

In some ways we do think alike pale, I too have a love of animals, one that transcends arbitary borders. Some believe we can extort change, I believe we can do it better by cooperation.

cheers
Posted by rojo, Sunday, 11 May 2008 10:58:35 AM
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Rojo
sorry

I`ll repost.

Who are we? Umm, thats a good question.

I 'hope' Rudd. + Minister of Imagration, e Ministers for Aboriginals, Ministers for Health, Ministers for employment and Treasuer in both Federal and State Governments.

I am 'tired 'of Ministers of Agriculture.

I think there is a tad too much conflict of interest working so much with Elders AWB etc.

A Minister of imagration has the reasonsibilty to train educate and supply life styles and job futures to migrants.

A Minister of Health "must look" at diseases grown from intensive farmers.
While Ministers for Aboriginals have a interest to make their people more self sufficent.

Each Premier of the States also is a Minister for trade...

I hope all of the above will work with RSPCA and Muslim Leaders and pale to create a whole new ball came in this country putting farming and employment oportunities back into Australia.

If we leave off animal Welfare( which we have no intention of doing) we still have a major raw material leaving our shores before vaule adding.

ME jobs can be replaced by exporting whole carcuss some biproducts and hides to keep a even level.

ME and Maylasian based companies can co share with our Aussie and create s strong friendships.

That cant hurt either for this countries future.

"However" there would only be one lot of people I would trust to help steer this in the right direction if we supply the ME investors.

That would be Animals Australia and PACAT. HSI.

I would not be happy at all to run this through MLA or Austrade.

We would need people to step up and be paid to travel check and talk to many overseas players.

Invite them back here and introduce them to Aussie Farmers.

We would of course supply Savvy Meat Industry advice.

We also need people like them to help allocate areas for Ag schools to compliment migrants.

Then people like PF and Free Ranger along with RSPCA to train them.

'All' Animal Welfare groups to give us a hand to establish Muslim Animal Welfare groups.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 11 May 2008 11:44:58 AM
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Hello again everyone
I am getting a bit confused here. Yabby says that things cannot be instantly changed in these countries from day 1. I thought that this industry had been going on for years, so why haven't things changed by now? It does really look like change has happened simply because all that awful cruelty was shown on television documentaries. The bottom line really seems to be that is isn't logical or rational to put animals which traditionally live on grass on ships for weeks, and on which a lot seem to die of various causes. Those which don't obviously are treated with extreme cruelty in these countries, in ways that would be illegal in Australia. That's why it all looks to be pretty dollar-driven to me. If it was going to be possible to change the way these people treat animals generally - all animals - would that not have happened by now? What they do to cattle in Egypt is just sickening, and there don't seem to be any enforceable guarantees that they won't keep doing it. The sheep I've seen, in the countries shown on television, were treated nearly as badly. Why is it allowed to send them to these places when they are protected from that sort of cruelty here? These countries sign pieces of paper that seem to completely meaningless, yet we keep sending them animals. It doesn't look as though that will change and I don't understand how a government that says it cares about cruelty to animals allows this to happen. It's millions of animals too. I'm sorry Rojo and Yabby, I just can't see any justification for this. If you want to make money out of your animals surely there are less cruel ways to do that.
Posted by Alexandra0814, Sunday, 11 May 2008 5:51:51 PM
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Hi all
Alexandra, welcome again. Don't let Yabby (or to a lesser extent, Rojo) bluff you. This industry has had three decades to address animal cruelty in importing countries; they have only begun to do so in recent years because they have been exposed so often, as you point out, on reputable television documentaries.

You are also correct in your understanding of "agreements" (or Memoranda of Understanding) these countries have signed; they are totally unenforceable. All except an additional one that Egypt signed provide only for the animals to be unloaded from ships into quarantine facilities (where it may be up to 50 degrees Celsius and there may or may not be shade, feed and water) and that was only to avert another "Cormo Express" (converted car carrier now known as the "Merino Express" fiasco. The reality is that these countries, all signatories to OIE standards, can and will do what they like. Animals Australia returned to Egypt at the end of 2006 and filmed how well the MoUs with that country were working, and the rest, as they say, is history - it was probably some of that that you saw.

As for ships being "purpose built" (referring to the Brazilians in Rojo's post) in fact very few are. There is a document at www.liveexportshame.com which details every ship and its history, and almost all are converted oil tankers, car transporters and container ships. The "Friesian Express" and the "Becrux" are the only ones that were purpose built.

Continued next post
Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 11 May 2008 7:18:45 PM
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(Continued)

It's true that there is less focus on the journey now but that is not to say that the deaths of 40,000+ animals a year is considered to be remotely acceptable as "collateral damage" as the industry sees it. They die of starvation ("inanition"), salmonellosis, disease and trauma from poor handling. In some ways those animals ARE more fortunate than those who survive the journey, and the industry measures its "success" on the animals still standing at that point. It does not measure the brutal subsequent handling and slaughter of those animals, and how sad that is.

PALE's position, as I understand it, is that it wants to operate slaughterhouses in Australia, which brings it into contention with the established animal welfare groups, who, I suspect but have no real basis for this, do not want to be part of slaughter itself or profiteering from it. It may also have to do with how PALE's business practices, you will have gained some insight into that from PALE's posts on various threads.

PALE, it is not true to say that all the State Premiers are also Ministers for Trade, that is only the case in Western Australia. The other states have a separate portfolio and Minister and/or it is included in portfolios other than those of the Premiers.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 11 May 2008 7:21:24 PM
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Sheesh, amazing how Alex and Nicky bounce off one another. Sounds more like
perhaps old friends to me :)

Alex, there certainly has been progress in the ME. Today some holding feedlots
even have chilled water for their sheep, something I have not seen in Australia.
Kim Chance mentioned that on his trip, he saw a new abattoir in Saudi Arabia,
up with or better then anything he had seen in Australia. So change is happening.

Last time I looked, IIRC AA were hiring a marketing specialist in causes, so
clearly they are out to shock, it’s a great way of marketing a cause. Just as
the Catholics do with their bits of dismembered foetuses, when they campaign
against abortion.

I have yet to see any material from AA, showing all the good stuff happening in
the ME.

I remind you that we are farmers, we grow things for people to eat. Why have
the so called animal welfare organisations done nothing in the ME for 30 years?
These organisations have been free to get off their butts, they clearly haven’t,
so pointing fingers at farmers is rather hypocritical. What is now happening
is that farmers are starting to get involved in things that animal welfare organisations
should have been doing for years. They are not short of money. Peta collects around
20 million$ a year, I am told, so it’s big business to rattle the internet tin these days.

I remind you that animal welfare has been active in Australia for a long time, still
we get incidents happening, much as they do in the ME. We live in a imperfect
world, that is the reality.

I gather that the trip to the ME is around 12 days, so in a sheep’s life, that is minimal They gain weight along the way. 99% arrive just fine. A 1% deathrate
is considered quite acceptable, as it is in Australian feedlots. Sheep don’t yet
have a Medicare card. 1 million or so cattle are in Australian feedlots. Do you
want to ban them and close them all down as well?
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 11 May 2008 8:05:44 PM
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Welcome again Alexandra0814,
I would like to address a few of your questions- As much as space permits.

1.-That's why it all looks to be pretty dollar-driven to me.
Answer- Yes of course it’s peoples live hoods and business not pets.

2 If it was going to be possible to change the way these people treat animals generally - all animals - would that not has happened by now?

Answer- “We” will never! Make changes in ME.
However we can arrange for them to do it themselves. By introducing an international accreditation that Islam’s reputation markets as the most human world wide.
These people have the funds to do it. They just need the right motivation.

3
If you want to make money out of your animals surely there are less cruel ways to do that.

Answer
Yes Alexandra there is. I just posted it above. Please stop and think what you really want.
We can improve conditions if we pull together.

I am sorry but each protest by libbers rolling around with pretend blood protesting meat eaters simply makes it worse for the animals the public are getting tired of that.

The media and Industry and Government take much delight in showing everybody up as extremists.

This suites people because they don’t want to confront the awful truth. They don’t want to feel guilty.

4

It's true that there is less focus on the journey now.

Answer- "NO it isn’t true."!

Alexandra pale does want to operate plants. It wants farmers and Muslim investors to.

It has a 'project' to reopen them under strict animal welfare conditions.
You simply have got to put an alternative on the table to Government and farmers and ME buyers- If your serious about making a difference. Its as simply as that.

Pale IS VERY Suspicious of some people ‘real motives’

Also when I can I will post letters of reply from most Premiers in Australia. So Nickys inncorrect.

They scream Ban Live Exports- Then scream louder when
people actually get off their bums to deliver just that.

Interesting=Why?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 11 May 2008 9:28:55 PM
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Hi again all
Yabby, sorry to disappoint you, but I don't know who or where Alexandra is, but whose fault is it that she is picking up on the facts of the matter? It seems to me that she is looking for the facts and asking quite reasonable questions.

You have only brought the argument back to the economics yet again, equating the animals to non-sentient, inanimate objects, and you and PALE continue to criticize the "animal libbers" for bringing those facts to the atention of the community and for making valid comment on the cruelty if this industry. THAT is one substantial contribution, I'd suggest, and a far more worthwhile one than the pitiful attempts of the industry to address this awful cruelty in three decades, which it has only started to do on a minimal scale in recent years.

In fact, it is a two per cent death rate (in sheep) that the industry considers "acceptable" on these journeys, and that equates to 40,000+ and does not include cattle, goats or the other species. You may have noticed that the AQIS reports are getting smarter at obsfucating the facts. They talk now in "consignments", and thus neatly avoid reporting on what should be far more mortality "incidents" than should be the case.

You also continue to sidestep whether you really think what happens to these animals is perfectly fine and why, beyond the farmers' dollars. Don't blame Alexandra for questioning the motives of this industry. Like most of us, she is probably wondering how you sleep at night by now.

PALE, correspondence I have received from the various State governments (the Premiers simplyt "duck-shove" the issues to the relevant Trade or Primary Industries Ministers) states simply that it is a Commonwealth issue and not one to be determined by State governments, so I can't wait to see what the Premiers have honoured you with (and how long ago).

Alexandra, I forgot to mention that a degree of paranoia is also to be found on these threads.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 11 May 2008 11:12:04 PM
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Nicky, no disappointment, simply an observation. Perhaps she is
your partner. I really don't care, but I do observe and note.

Of course economics matters, its no different in your job.
You expect to get paid for what you do, so does everyone else
including farmers. We all have bills to pay. Only farmers depend
on your suburbanites to take our primary products and value add them,
to satisfy global demand for various farm commodities, for which
there is clearly demand. If you are so selfish or so useless, that
you cannot provide farmers with a reasonable price (it can be benchmarked)
for them to survive, we have to think up ways to
do it without you. The live trade is the result of that.

If the industry accepts 2% as acceptable and achieves a 99%
result, clearly they are doing well. I am well aware that no
losses will ever be acceptable to a bunch of vegans/veggies with
a philosophy problem, but in terms of experienced vets etc, people
who have worked with and know livestock, so are better informed then
yourself, without philosophical hangups, its a very good result.

What do I sidestep? That a sheep is hogtied? It happens in Australia.
That a sheep has its throat slit? It happens in Australia. I am
no hypocrite.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 11 May 2008 11:33:13 PM
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Hi Alex, apologies for the delay, we can only post 4 times/day per thread and I ran out. I'm glad you are real, because my minor embarrassment for being wrong would pale into insignificance compared to Nicky's if I was right, and I would feel sad for her. Could I ask the significance of the 0814, it seems awfully familiar.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the Egypt abattoirs yet, so I can't comment other than I think there is only one accredited to take Aussie animals. I was under the impression trade was halted to Egypt by our govt and resumes with retrictions, bad behaviour to result in resuspension.

I don't make any money out of live exports, or livestock at all for that matter.

Nicky, if you read my posts carefully it's not actually about dickies typo/freudian slip on TSE/BSE, it's about the intent behind the statement either way. I specifically asked for a reference on this at least twice. More importantly TSE does not have anything to do with BSE unless it involves vCJD. dickie, obviously well versed in BSE would have known this, and since we were specifically talking about animal diseases, a canadian woman diagnosed with TSE has no more relevance than one who broke her leg[canada has only had one vCJD case - in 2002]. A simple ref would have cleared this up when I pointed out B means bovine in BSE, or at anytime thereafter.

It doesn't bug me in the slightest that dickie references things, even if they are out of date. Does it bother you that I do? Where I don't feel free to ask and I will provide, I try hard to be accurate. I would have thought those ships were modified on purpose, they don't just throw the sheep in the oil tanks or strap them to car carriers, and not in containers (from Australia).
Posted by rojo, Monday, 12 May 2008 1:06:07 AM
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I claimed in an earlier post that I would no longer debate on this thread. However, since Rojo has seen fit to breach the OLO protocol by transferring the contents of one thread to another, I have an obligation to advise posters on the definition of TSE and its relevance to the animal disease of BSE (mad cow disease) and its risk to humans.

I have already alluded posters to my typo of “BSE” rather than “TSE” on the correct thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1666&page=0

That Rojo believes I would intentionally refer to a human disease as "bovine" is ludicrous.

Rojo’s maniacal and petty obsession with this typo has seen him scramble onto this thread denying that the term TSE has any relevance to BSE:

Definitions:

TSE — transmissible spongiform encephalopathy, a general term for infection in humans and all animals

BSE — bovine spongiform encephalopathy, refers to specific TSE in cattle, also known as mad cow disease

Kuru — specific TSE in humans (overlaps with CJD=Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, also a human TSE).

TSE: Transmissible spongiform encephalopathy is a disease of the neurological system - spongy degeneration of the brain with progressive dementia. Examples in humans include CJD and kuru. Among animals: scrapie and BSE.

vCJD is the human form of BSE in animals.

Classical CJD in humans is not caused from the BSE prion.

It should be emphasized that a definite diagnosis of any form of CJD can only be given by brain tissue examination after death. Each individual case of CJD can be assigned to one of three subtypes: sporadic, genetic or acquired. The considerations for diagnosis vary depending on the subtype.

I advised that April 2008 saw 19 diagnoses of CJD in Canada, however, I was not inferring that these CJDs were from a bovine source - only of that potential.

Therefore, each emerging case of CJD has the potential to be of animal origin.

The Australian Government in March 2007 advised one possible explanation for the lack of identification of vCJD so far in Australia is clinical misdiagnosis or non-identification, but this is considered unlikely.

contd......
Posted by dickie, Monday, 12 May 2008 5:55:07 PM
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The World Health Organisation Consultation Committee recommended that autopsy be strongly encouraged in any suspect case of CJD. Where autopsy is not possible or permitted, postmortem biopsy of the brain should be sought.

Currently 2 Quebec deaths are being investigated for CJD and extreme precautions are being conducted to prevent any risk of this infection spreading.

Experts predict that the variant type of CJD will continue to emerge in humans for decades.

Rojo’s pettiness and self-interest should be ignored. My motives are altruistic and I again stress, zoonotic diseases in humans are increasing. This has the potential to create global epidemics of massive proportion.

Authors of an article in the medical journal Lancet, have hypothesised that the habit of feeding human remains to livestock could have resulted in cattle contracting BSE.

That the livestock industry has been permitted to carry on “business as usual” in its abominable treatment of livestock is beyond comprehension.
Posted by dickie, Monday, 12 May 2008 6:02:06 PM
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Hello again everyone. Rojo, I think I'm real. The significance of 0814 is that it is an old number plate I had I thought that my name (Alexandra) on its own would be taken. I hope 0814 is not a commonly used number because I use it for all sorts of things because I can always remember it. I don't actually have a partner at the moment either.
Posted by Alexandra0814, Monday, 12 May 2008 7:45:59 PM
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Alexandra

It would be clear to everybody pale are animal lovers.
Pale is not involved in owning abattoirs. We do have a programe working towards ending live exports encouraging reopening of plants in Australia which is the only answer to live exports.HKM

Question is =why are people trying to stop us? I think they need to answer that?”


The answer is to give farmers a good price by value adding.

Nicky says we are critizing libbers. “No” We are not overall.., not if you look back over ‘all our comments’ praising Animals Australia


How far does the rot go in the Government?

Nicky’s continued attacks on pale are a matter of record on OLO...

IMOP this is done on purpose.





PALE joined OLO as an institute member to reach out and educate the public about cruelty to animals in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

We are a hard working long hours and mostly self funding. So ask yourself if you care about Animals why would you want to get rid of us?

Alexandra, also each Premier has powers to act under his or her state in Trade. That’s simply a fact.
Something else others ought to have been pushing on a State level instead of just Federal IMOP. = Here is just one example=
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:J77VIfHlx-0J:www.legislation.qld.gov.au/Leg_Info/publications/Legislation_Handbook.pdf+state+premiers+have+trade+ministers+reasonability&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=au

Peter Beattie MP
Premier and Minister for Trade
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 12 May 2008 8:17:10 PM
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Hi all
PALE, this is not an attack, but that link just takes you to how the legislative process comes about (in Queensland in this case). Peter Beattie may have also had the Trade portfolio at the time he was Premier, but how long has be been gone for? The only one in that position now is Carpenter in WA - and that's why they assign portfolios, so that they can sidestep the problems.

My experience with State governments, with various Ministers as portfolios change, is that they simply pass the buck and make it a Federal issue. Too easy. That's the problem with the WA case, unless an appeal can be brought. That magistrate relied on the section of the Constitution (s109) in which Commonwealth law over-rides State law, whereas s 118 actually protects State laws from that. But since the appeal was withdrawn on the instructions of a politician, in itself highly improper, we will never get to test that because the action has to be brought by a State authority (Solicitor, Attorney General, etc). The "standing" issue that I've mentioned before. So you can beat yourself up with State governments but they are just not interested because they don't have to be - especially now that that precedent exists.

And may I say, PALE, that you attack others far more than they do you? particularly those who choose not to work with you, or otherwise disagree with you. Quite viciously too.

Alexandra, you have no idea how glad I am you are real; I seem to be being accused of all kinds of subterfuge and collusion again. Keep asking your questions. Rojo has some good answers too, but Yabby tends to be a bit too self-interested for that a lot of the time. Rojo, thanks, I do get to most of your references.
Dickie is WAY ahead of me on zoonotic diseases too - thanks, Dickie

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 12 May 2008 10:14:46 PM
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Alaxanda=

Nicky said

My experience with State governments, with various Ministers as portfolios change, is that they simply pass the buck and make it a Federal issue.

pale comments

Alaxanda= Makes a difference if you are playing in a big field. A Premier has powers to act under each state. I also told you her friends that years ago.

When you walk in the door with big players trust me they are different. We walk in with Commercial lawyers and Muslim leaders from Australia and overseas. These people are serious players even within Federal. Howver i will go one step futher. The buck for each State for trade falls at the feet of each Premier. Full stop. and transport health etc etc.

Premiers have powers to decide what happens in theior state re trade to a VERY large degree.

Now doesnt that make you wonder WHY others havent in years lobbied outside each Premiers 0ffice re live export and intensive farming?

re WA Case. I am afraid it is going to be a while before our QC can get to it.
Alaxanda we have never attacked anybody. To do so would be counter productive for the animals. Sadly we have been forced to defend our position . Even right now as we speak we have certain people plotting and making planes to go behind our backs seeking meetings with people that we have long invited them to meet under our mou regarding animal welfare.
We know that only big investors will end live exports by reopening plants.
They opppose that . Makes you wonder?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 6:15:50 AM
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Alexandra



pale invited others to introduce an alternative to live exports and replace intesive with free range for years.!

Started only six years ago concerned nothing was being actually done to reopen plants.

We have lead the way working with Muslim Leaders and they dont like it.


We have also pointed out over and over again by protesting to 'each 'Premier it would have a more direct approach.

nicky is quite correct Alaxandra by saying the peak Animal Welfare body Animals Australia pete etc refuse to work with us.

What you should note however is we are working getting major players to reopen plants.

This is the 'only way ' to actually do something about live exports and we are the only ones doing it.
.

If your reading the other thread you will notice Yabby explaining the real reason for live exports.

This is what we have been telling others for years.

Yes of course we get a bit upset by people running around naked and rolling around with pretend blood on the. Why?=

Because its counter productive and reflects badly on all Animal Welfare minded members of public and main stream groups.

However we appluade those same protesters because at least they care about the animals.

Fact is its not their fault if they are mislead and misguided.

These same people who have been invited for years have already contacted some muslim leaders behind our backs. They know we hold a mou with regarding Animal Welfare. The Muslims replied again telling them that.

"So finally they get it."!Finally they see this is the way. Do they come to us and aoligise.? No.

So that might give you a better idea what is really wrong with Animal Welfare in Australia.

Too much bitching and backstabbing which we want "no part of".

I put it to you nicky has no reason to complain about fellow animal lovers. If she REALLY cared about the Animals first- she wouldnt!

Question is whats really the problem with her and her friends?

Why would you try to stop fellow animal lovers from helping animals?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 8:03:00 AM
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Hi all
Did PALE not do some protest somewhere with strippers or the like not that long ago?

Alexandra, there are many ways of standing up for animal welfare and being an animal advocate, and that is reflected in this country by the different strategies adopted by the different animal advocacy groups. Animal Liberation and Animals Australia are probably the most "out there", with PACAT in WA. Animals Australia does not get involved in the protest activity PALE describes, and is invited by the Government/s to be part of various advisory activities. It also provides comprehensive information about lots of forms of animal abuse; that is to say that it is not a "single issue" organization. Animal Liberation, in particular NSW and Victoria where they are most prominent, take the alternative approach and effect some excellent protest activities. Neither group, for whatever reason, seems to be prepared to have anything to do with PALE. I'm not a member of either, so I don't know what is behind that beyond what PALE says.

An excellent source of information is www.liveexportshame.com too.

I don't know what the story is about who is, or has been, "going behind (PALE's) back" either. I thought they meant the RSPCA, but possibly not. Only PALE knows that. I have suggested that, to me, it doesn't matter who wins the war against live exports as long as someone does, but that didn't do me any favours with PALE either; it rather seems to be about kudos in the end.

Hang in there, there's lots to read, learn and debate. Try not to get drawn into some of the abuse that goes on here from time to time. Choose your own path, if you are in this for the animals.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 7:31:39 PM
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Hi again all

PALE... really. You attack me, and all the animal advocacy groups all the time. Can you not see that? And can you tell us the last date on which you held discussions about the meat industry and/or live exports with a state premier please?

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 7:40:23 PM
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Nicky, I notice that your favourite website mentions people
frolicking in the nude in Sydney, to campain against live exports.

This is clearly not such a bad thing at all, so tell us, have
you been frolicking in the nude in protest ? :)
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 10:01:30 PM
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Hi all
Yabby, sweetheart, not me, I'm afraid (what a scary thought!). I'm not a member of any of the groups who do that (I'm sure PALE said they did something similar too), although you may not have to be. But that sort of protest isn't for me.

That isn't to say that I disapprove of any of their methods though. I did think tipping a bit of water-based paint on Hugh Wirth(less) wasn't a bad idea at the time, too, particularly since those who did it were veterinary students and RSPCA volunteers who were really hacked off with him.

Maybe you guys should do a nude demo in favour of your industry of choice...

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 10:37:13 PM
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*Maybe you guys should do a nude demo in favour of your industry of choice...*

Oh no need at all Nicky, farmers would be thrilled by the younger,
prettier ones, getting their gear off. Its only if older protesters
like Dickie ever joined in, that they might be a little concerned :)
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 10:49:29 PM
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Oh go-awn Yabby

I'd love to see life's leftovers swaggering down Pitt Street Sydney wearing nothing but a cowboy hat with his old woolly sack flopping in the breeze.

And just think about it. One day in the year where you wont be playing solitaire - well not in public anyway!
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 11:31:27 PM
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Hi all
Now THERE'S a challenge. Yabby and Rojo, give me a few days notice - I can't wait. Dickie, that would be almost worth catching the red-eye west for, what do you reckon?

BTW, how does he know how old people are? Divine intervention?

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 11:36:16 PM
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Touche Nicky

"BTW, how does he know how old people are? Divine intervention?"

Nah......delusional psychosis. That's what happens when they overdo the Viagra!
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 13 May 2008 11:42:36 PM
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*BTW, how does he know how old people are? Divine intervention?*

Actually Nicky, when posters post long enough, they reveal a fair
bit about themselves over time. Dickie has told us that she is one
of the oldest posters on OLO and that the buzzards are circling,
so one foot is nearly in the grave... I've even offered to sell
her a suitable plot in the country. Perhaps at her age, she has
forgotten all that, the memory does go with age.

Its you protesters who are doing the nude walking for protest, so
keep sending the younger, prettier ones, if you think that this is
going to end the live trade :)
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 5:33:00 AM
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Hi all

Yabby, what a coward you are! A trip west was beginning to look a bit enticing.

I have a cousin who is a top psychiatrist in Melbourne who is very interested in psychoses, particuarly those to do with self-aggrandizement. And there are drugs that can help you, really there are. Viagra doesn't cure everything, as we have seen.

Let me know when you're REALLY going to stand up and be counted (so to speak) for your evil trade! A couple of weeks notice would be good though

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 7:58:40 PM
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*Yabby, what a coward you are! A trip west was beginning to look a bit enticing.*

Nicky, no coward at all. Just perhaps a little smarter then your
average veggie sheep protester, who thinks that getting their gear
off will end the live trade :)

*Viagra doesn't cure everything, as we have seen.*

Dickie keeps mentioning Viagra and as Edward de Bono points out,
the mind works by association. Perhaps its all those old fellas
in her old peoples home, who are chasing her around, dosed up with
the stuff :)
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 8:49:12 PM
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Yabbs
I am not sure if this link will come up but I thought you might get a smile.
LiveExportSydneyLarge1

Now here is some jolly grand work by Animal Liberation. Standing outside Elders is a good move.=

http://www.animal-lib.org.au/news/live-exports.htm

So what happend to the deep and meaningful posts on the other thread.
For a while there I thought you may have got through.

Anyway Yabby I think we can look to NZ to be major players. No probs with staff.

I dont know if I ever mentioned an elderly gentleman - Mr Jim Dyer.
He worked the abattoirs for many years travelling around as a younger fellow.
They used to do the seasons then go to NZ and back again. He still exports skins to China. Interesting man. Said he travelled in ME years ago and came back and pushed to export salted because he couldnt sleep at night after what he saw.
Hes no softie either. He along with other adtressed the NZ many years ago when live first kicked off and warned them if it was allowed to grow the effect it would have on Australia plants

Yabby your posts on the other thread to Nicky. I wouldnt mind putting up here if that ok.

http://freerangefarmers.com/freerange/

I will leave you to torment (I'm sure PALE said they did something similar too),

pale has to addmitt to sending strippers to AWB Enquiry because Rudd refused to inform the public that it wasnt just about wheat but live exports however= Other than that i have to say No its not something( nude protests 0 that pale would ever be involved in.
I thought the Animal liberation one outside Elders was far more the way to go TBO.

AVA would be better. I once spoke with head of AVA- Whats her name again? Margret. Anyway she said in a horrified voice that AL lot threatend to protest outside AVA. To which I replied- no that was pale.
She replied- Well we would just take the day off. I found the rather amusing TBO

A Goodnight everybod
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 10:38:41 PM
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thanks Alexandra, but I'm not looking for a new partner :)

It's a great number.

dickie, I did bring this up on the wrong thread my apologies, I did not intend to so, and will endeavour as always to keep what happens on a thread on that thread.
Having said that you still manage to come up with the same drivel, you just don't get it or are covering up.

"This month a Canadian woman was diagnosed with BSE(sic)". I accepted it could have been a typo for TSE, I'm not so pedantic that spelling bothers me. You no doubt did have BSE on your mind, and that was my point.

here's the point specifically- Why is a Canadian woman diagnosed with TSE news? Why present that fact(?) if your intention wasn't to deliberately infer that BSE was the culprit.

if she was diagnosed with vCJD that would be grounds for discussion re:animal caused disease, which was your intention. You said it yourself. Only one case has ever been diagnosed in Canada, in 2002.

Now it's 2 quebecites investigated for CJD, not even diagnosed? You just had to present something that states that in the month of april a woman in canada was diagnosed with any form of TSE. It's really, really simple.

Again my sincere apologies for mentioning this on the wrong thread.
Posted by rojo, Wednesday, 14 May 2008 11:46:21 PM
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Hello again everyone. Rojo, I didn't mean I was looking for a partner! I'm over partners at the moment. Pale, I had a look at those links that you had there. How current is the information at the freeranger hkm site? The Animal Liberation people weren't nude though. A protest outside the AVA (Aust Vet Association?) sounds like a really good idea to me. You'd have to not warn them though. Don't they have a national conference every year? That would do. I found a list once of all the vets who are approved by the government to go on these trips - perhaps someone could follow Dickie's idea - we could find out where each of them has an office and protest outside it. It would be hard to organise, I think but it would do their businesses a bit of harm.
Yabby might turn up in the raw too.
I wrote to the Victorian state premier and the western Australian premier a few times a while ago and got a hopeless answer so maybe Nicky is right. The premiers don't really care when they can get out of it. Good night everyone.
Posted by Alexandra0814, Thursday, 15 May 2008 12:24:48 AM
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Alexandra0814, said

I wrote to the Victorian state premier and the western Australian premier a few times a while ago and got a hopeless answer so maybe Nicky is right. The premiers don't really care when they can get out of it. Good night everyone.

pale=
I would be very interested to see the reply TBO.
I will try to dig out some older letters to and from Premiers and post them for you.

Did they deny they are a seperate identity for trade in their state?

The Free Range Farmers site needs a new minder. Tayns in WA. That used to be her little job.

AVA have a unique system. Its a bit like asking farmers to put up their hands for the ACCC enquiry at the moment.

AVA are terribly frail. Scare really easily. I reckon they might set up a mobile shop if you girls look their way:)

They for eg were to attend a meeting a while back in QLD With
with fed Ministers advisor. Didnt front didnt call and headed for the hills when confronted.

I am afriad we cant take on one more thing however I will find old letters to AVA and so forth also when I get a chance.

I just wish some others would point their fingures at AVA

The only reason live exports and intensive farming is about is because they dont act.

The Government would have to introduce an act tomorrow! if AVA did their job.

AVA are all there is between intensive farming and live exports.

So the question is to young vets and older ones who are sitting on the AVA board.

Why did you not honnor your juty of care and keep our alligence to the animals.

Its the way to go. Good Night everybody- Or should I say- goodmorning.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 15 May 2008 5:02:10 AM
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Rojo

Do you have anything better to do? You remain on these threads purposely to defend the heinous actions of the livestock industry in Australia and have failed to provide the remotest semblance of an ethical argument to justify the existence of this industry. You, laying down with dogs (apologies to canines), are riddled with fleas.

Despite my response to your swill in another thread, you're at it again. Why don't you take your hand off it and bugger off?

And from the British Medical Journal:

"Up to May 2003, 135 cases of vCJD had been identified in the UK. Analyses of the numbers of deaths from vCJD by year had shown an increasing trend with time, but recent data raise the possibility that the epidemic has peaked.

"Mathematical models estimating the total future number of cases have indicated a wide range of future scenarios. Early calculation estimated that there might be thousands or more cases of vCJD in the UK and, although more recent models provide more conservative estimates, there remains uncertainty about the likely size of the total vCJD epidemic.

"All these calculations necessarily depend on a range of unknown assumptions including critical determinants such as the mean incubation period of BSE in humans or the infectious dose of BSE for humans.

Therefore, vigilance is essential particularly when Australia's live export industry has been exposed for its lies and deception and its "business as usual" mentality.

Furthermore, in light of BSE, Manila has, until this month (May) maintained its ban on importing "clean, green" Australian bone and meat meal for its livestock.

http://archive.wn.com/2008/05/11/1400/cjdreport/

That I find interesting particularly in light of recent revelations that all governments in "clean, green" Australia (state and federal without exception), have been found guilty of suppressing vital health and environmental information to its people.

The suppression of this information has the potential to place the health of this nation at risk.

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnSYD230970.html

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2176903.htm

These revelations come as no surprise when we examine the collusion between the moral pygmies in government (including senior bureaucrats) and the corporate cockroaches who are running the show.
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 15 May 2008 12:10:16 PM
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Hey guys. Did you sign the petition on The Land site? It helps.
Posted by Gibo, Thursday, 15 May 2008 12:47:47 PM
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Dickie, perhaps you should take your hand off it.

Rojo's posts have been some of the most rational on the
animal welfare threads. All we get from you is more alarmist
nonsense, because you can't get your little mind around the
fact that we breed livestock for humans to eat.

Every day millions of people eat meat grown in Australia.
No reports of deaths everywhere. Yet people get run
over, commit suicide, die from mistakes in hospitals etc.
etc.

Our local old peoples home is full of 90 plus year olds,
who have eaten local meat all their lives.

Careful that you don't die of worry
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 15 May 2008 2:02:52 PM
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Gibo,
Hello , Which petition are you refering to?
Thanks for your interest.
Yabby
Well I dont know if debating on here is much use.
I wouldnt mind if we could move on and work on a means to fixing the problem

I am sure we are all sick of hearing the same old thing for twenty years pluss.
We need some better progects than this re hashed stuff time after time.

To my mind bugger all will change until WE change it.

Thats all there is to it.

I though we may of had a small break through when you posted on the other thread regarding addressing the problems.

However we just keep going over and over the same old stuff.

We are trying to get some more players into WA Yabby.

Waiting on some big players who should be here in the next few months.
Goodness knows how long it will take to see it all through and cut some red tape.

Mean while changing the subject have you got two or three names of areas down there that plants would be best place IYO

We have got a few in mind but nothing like hearing from locals
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 15 May 2008 3:15:47 PM
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"Careful that you don't die of worry"

Yabby

I am not a worrier - I am a crusader. And luckily for me, I am not a captive of your foul industry.

Therefore, don't kid yourself. The damning evidence against your industry is overwhelming and all posters who want to find out for themselves need only access the myriad of medical and environmental documentation which is readily available.

As for the "90 plus year olds" you refer to, I remind you that during their earlier years on this planet they were not subjected to the poisoning of their food sources or the ramifications of intensive farming by the likes of you . Nevertheless, I have not yet met a "90 plus year old" who is in good health - not doubt succumbing to the ravages of "modern" agriculture in their latter years.

"Every day millions of people eat meat grown in Australia. No reports of deaths everywhere."

More unadulterated swill Yabby to deceive and insult the intelligence of readers?

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:KGVdYiF1W2cJ:www.abc.net.au/health/library/stories/2005/08/04/1829066.htm+bowel+cancer+australia+2007+red+meat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=au&lr=lang_en

"A substantial reduction in meat consumption in high-income countries should benefit health, mainly by reducing the risk of heart disease obesity, colorectal cancer and, perhaps some other cancers.

"The study also points out that reducing red meat consumption would have health benefits for many Westerners, including potentially lowering the risk of several types of cancer." Prof. Michael

Professor McMichael teaches at the National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health at the Australian National University, Canberra and led an international team of experts. Results were published in the medical journal Lancet.

Australians, per capita, for the year 2006, consumed 110 kilograms of meat - beef, lamb, pig, poultry.

It is estimated that Americans alone consume more than 10 billion animals annually and Australia grows around 28% of its meat products for export to the US.

As for the global and domestic environmental and health ramifications of this reckless descent into unsustainability, I shall leave posters to form their own conclusions.
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 15 May 2008 3:43:51 PM
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Yabbys a torment yes however he gave the real reasons for live Exports.
It’s not his industry. It’s not even the farmers industry. It’s the middle men and Government that set it up this way to jump in on trade deals.
Yabby doesn’t agree with me on this part of it.

However it doesn’t really matter if he agrees it was plotted this or just ended up this way be bad management.

The result is the same in the end.

The real truth of the matter is the Australian Governments' BOTH Federal and State could stop this pretty quickly if MLA and Australia Premiers and Ministers of trade went to ME and the thirty other countries and said= Hello My name is BLa Bla. =

I am The Minister of Trade etc and we invite you to form co joint ventures with Aussie partners because WE ARE NOT EXPORTING LIVE ANIMALS ANYMORE BECAUSE ITS CRUEL END OF STORY.

Instead of that MLA and Austrade the Ministers and the PM all protect and promote the evil Industry.

Why? Because they don’t have the balls the stand up to the companies with vetted interests.
They won’t take of the Truckee companies. They don’t want to loose those votes. They don’t want to loose their donations to their parties.

As the old saying goes. You lie with dogs and you get fleas.

Well both sides of this Government have been lousy for years.

So if it’s going to stop its up to we do do their job. To reopen plants and bring in some powerful players. It’s doable. More those most realize. Huh if only people knew how many times FF has been contacted direct by these investors! Just to be fobbed off. FF has some questions to answer. Bottom line.

If we want it to stop we are going to have to do it ourselves because the Governments In Australia are too low and gutless.

SHAME ON STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS AND ALL MINISTERS FOR NOT SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THIS CRUELTY MAY THEY ALL ROT IN HELL ALONG WITH ELDERS
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 15 May 2008 4:50:57 PM
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*Nevertheless, I have not yet met a "90 plus year old" who is in good health - not doubt succumbing to the ravages of "modern" agriculture in their latter years.*

Funny then that people are living longer then ever. How much
over 90 do you think people should live? What about they might
have had their turn, time to let the younger ones have a go.

You crusade all you want, others will point out to you that the
sky isn't falling, as you claim.

A balanced diet is what its all about. Yes some people eat too
much meat, even too much coffee will kill you. Yes eating
processed meats, salamis etc, with additives, is a problem, but
I have yet to see where people who eat moderate amounts of
unprocessed red meats, don't benefit. That is exactly what we
produce in WA and that is what those 90 year olds have eaten
all their lives.

As for live exports, its really up to suburia to do more then
just trade houses with one another for a living. Value adding
what farmers produce is one thing they could do. They are free
to buy our livestock and value add. If they are unwilling,
unable, too stupid or too lazy, we will find other solutions.

Some of these families here have skimped and saved, worked their
arses off for 3 generations and more. In the 90s I would visit
some outer areas, some were still living in the back of their
shearing sheds. They are honest, hardworking people who rely on
the system to do the right thing. If the system is so flawed,
or you suburbanites so lazy and corrupt, farmers will find their
own solutions.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:22:39 PM
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"In the 90s I would visit some outer areas, some were still living in the back of their shearing sheds."

Oh dearie me....how terribly sad.

By the way Yabby where do they park their aeroplanes and helicopters these days?
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39:14 PM
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*By the way Yabby where do they park their aeroplanes and helicopters these days?*

Which shows me that you don't have the foggiest, as to what is going
on in the WA farming areas. Ignorance is clearly bliss in your
case.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 15 May 2008 9:09:03 PM
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http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/&articleid=302398
International
Cooking smoke killing 1,6-million people a year
New Delhi, India

More than 1,6-million people are dying every year from the effects of breathing in poisonous smoke from animal dung, wood and coal used for cooking, experts said on Monday.

More than three billion people -- half the world's population -- rely on the burning of solid fuels to prepare their meals because they cannot afford cleaner alternatives or don't have access to electricity.

Environmental experts said in New Delhi the cooking smoke was killing women and children in India, China, Africa and elsewhere.

"There is an enormous massacre happening in the world, yet little attention is given to this," said Ashok Khosla, chairperson of Development Alternatives, an Indian voluntary group that promotes clean technology for rural communities.

"Most of those that suffer are women who cook in the rural kitchens of the Third World and their young children who spend much time indoors with their mothers."

Yabby I agree with you its time the people got off their bums and value added.
I agree the city folk should demand the Government make this happen. I agree that even if peopledont care about the animals this country needs that to happen
I agree if people complain about live exports they should be prepaired to do something sensible about it.

I just dont know how they can sit back and do nothing.
Worse still attack the people who are trying to do just that for the animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 15 May 2008 10:51:56 PM
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Hi all

PALE, I suspect we would get little joy out of the AVA, after all, these are people with a commercial interest in livestock generally, including live exports. Hugh Wirth I think said some time ago that the vets who do the live export stuff did not have to have the same accreditation as practising vets in Australia. I don't know whetther that's still the case. Vets therefore cannot be relied upon to stand up for these animals, and for that reason, should not be represented on animal welfare advisory bodies. They have a commercial interest and thus a conflict.

Yabby, it's pretty safe to attribute longevity to advances in medicine and technology, not to consumption of your "product", which as Dickie points out, is responsible for subsntantive imcreases in arteriosclerosis, and colorectal and other cancers. The first of those is addressed these days with angioplasty and other graft techniques which were unheard of years ago. It owes absolutely nothing to meat consumption. In fact, the longevity of vegetarians is better, so you should drop that particular propganda.

I think Rojo's posts, although I rarely agree with them, are often reasoned and polite, but not as factual or well-reasoned and referenced as Dickie's (as someone who marks that kind of material at tertiary level, I'm quite conscious of that).

PALE has suggested that "plants" (why not call them for what they are? Slaughterhouses) can be opened in WA, perhaps there's something in that.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 16 May 2008 12:05:10 AM
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PALE, I suspect ...

pale Comments
Then perhaps its time the advisory group took that to task with everybodies support.
As I said there would be NO LIVE EXPORTS if AVA didnt sign off on it.

We have asked for years to have a national petition for all vets to sugn.
Mind you many Vets are fearful of AVA who operate in their own secret manner.
Remember the Government have always said AVA vets etc.

This is how the Government get away with it. AVA are very jumpy people.
Those vets woulnt be scared as all if they saw them through my eyes.

Which reminds me! Time I made letters to look at hkm to AVA public.

Interesting as people who swore their alligence to animals, nobody is interested to discuss the possibilty of reopening slaughter houses throughout Australia eventually using gas.

Are these vets, or are they 'tools for the Government and Industry.

( We say plants because slaughter houses is very long}

Its meat industry slang. Its either reopen here or send them alive. we dont have a third option.

"I still say its the way to go".

"They `AVA` are all that stands between live exports and stopping it"

No AVA approval- No live exports.

Ask your friends - Why they dont rally outside AVA?

Say hello to Margret:) Although I think shes moved on to greener pasture. ( Not sure about that)

A few years ago they had a kid straight out of uni as president.

They only hold the position for one year and then its jumped like a hot cake to another youngster. Contact address are unlisted?

We have done what we can ( well not all) but it requires AA and others to target them as well.

Nicky Said
Hugh Wirth ...

pale comments

Be good brilliant clip to have if anybody can find it.

Its fasinated me you girls complained he was head of RSPCA but are happy to have him incharge of the World wide one?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 16 May 2008 7:10:59 AM
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PALE.
The comment column on the initial reference to The Land newspaper site you put up? The Land Your Say column wants ideas. Yet its only got four comments.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 16 May 2008 8:18:37 AM
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Hi all

PALE, the AVA does hold a certain infuence over live exports insofar as if it came out publicly and said it would not have its members being part of it, no AVA member vets could be (unless they resigned) - but there is nothing to stop AQIS "accrediting" vets from other countries. They only have to be accredidted by AQIS. not by the AVA. That is not to say that a decent stand from the AVA could not make a difference. But you're talking about people who make money out of animals one way or another including this one, so why would we expect any different?

I don't know who Margret (sic) is.

I haven't said I am happy about Hugh Wirth(less) being the mouthpiece of the world campaign, by the way, but it wasn't something I would have had any influence over. I found out about it all at the same time as the rest of the country/world did. Nor do I know how anyone else felt/feels about it and I don't have influence over whether or not anyone protests against the AVA either. If there are no contact details available I'd suggest that would be a bit of a clue though. Do they have an office, or just do business via teleconferencing?

So far as I remember, Wirth made that comment about the time of the Keniry Review.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 16 May 2008 7:13:02 PM
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* But you're talking about people who make money out of animals one way or another including this one, so why would we expect any different?*

You see Nicky, this is where your philosophy is so flawed. Just
because somebody makes money, does not mean that they can't be
informed and have an objective opinion. Flawed ideology can be
far more distorting then making a living. I remind you of the
number of people who are religious, yet don't make a living from
it. You are a typical case where flawed ideology limits your
ability to be objective in any kind of reasonable way. There
are a great many just like you.

Fanatics are fanatics, they don't need payment.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 16 May 2008 7:54:24 PM
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Hi all

Yabby, not true. Money will trump objectivity every time, and you know it. The real welfare of te animal will always be dependent upon its relative value, and you know that as well.

That is a matter of fact, not fanatacism.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 17 May 2008 1:05:52 AM
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*Money will trump objectivity every time, and you know it.*

Absolutaly not so, if you don't know it, then you are not the
brightest, or too biased to even understand that.

Take your example of vets. There are plenty of vets who earn a
living from being vets, who can express objective opinions about
animal welfare, which is far more informed and at least they are
qualified, unlike yourself.

In your own case, not only do you lack the qualifications, your
ideology prevents you from being in any way objective. So
your opinion is worth least of all.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 17 May 2008 5:39:29 AM
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Gibo,
Sorry. Thanks
Nickysaid
PALE, the AVA...
palecomments
I don’t think the Government would go there. Could be stopped in a heart beat. Job for the unions :)

More pressure on AVA is a ‘good way’ IMOP

Nicky said =
I haven't said I am happy about Hugh …
Palecomments

TBO its interesting Hugh`s saying the Handle with Care 'reject' our offer 'again' to be involved with our MOU for animal’s welfare with Muslim Leaders.?

Invitations have been sent to Hugh and RSPCA National for six years. That’s a matter of record.

Instead we are told RSPCA and Handle with care will approach Muslims Leaders leaving pale out of it. How interesting?

No =.. We can’t force Hugh to do anything - that true.
We are just ‘very aware’ of Hugh.

I recall at a meeting between our lawyers and the Federal Ministers advisor, certain information was given.

Was regarding alleged (or undertaking) by Hugh and RSPCA CEO UK to Peter McGauran.

We sent it to AA in confidence. (That’s another story)

Soon after Hugh resigned as president of RSPCA but kept his President of WSPA.

Just 'prior' to that he rejected pales application to be member society of WSPA.

Makes you wonder – speaking of money. Just what makes these people tick.’

You may not like us Nicky but ‘rest assured’ WE ARE on the side of the animals.

Yes we are suspicious of "some" group leaders.’

Why on earth would you ban and black list a group of unpaid people who did what RSPCA and others should have and could have done years ago.’

Is it only that they want the credit and any funding?

Umm, I think its more.

We think its political – pluss the funding and they want the credit for our work.

They have ZERO knowledge and background.

Any interference now could bring down everything set to play for the better outcome for animals. We “won’t” risk that.

Let us WSPA in your ear=

Handle With Care Hugh.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 17 May 2008 9:05:36 AM
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"In your own case, not only do you lack the qualifications, your
ideology prevents you from being in any way objective. So
your opinion is worth least of all."

That's an extremely accurate appraisal of your own ideology Yabby - well done and the Swiss would certainly agree that "your opinion is worth least of all."

You see the Swiss are soon to legislate for the protection of other species from the sadists and the ignorant who ill-treat them.

They have already banned battery hen farms and while this is just the beginning, the current proposal will further protect animals from cruel livestock owners, who will no longer be allowed to tether horses, sheep and goats, nor keep pigs and cows in areas with hard floors.

If you were a Swiss, your penchant for hog-tying your livestock could see you behind bars.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3818457.ece

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7364

I'm confident you will have much in common with the author's derisive view of the Swiss in the OLO article - an author who seemingly too has a belief that other living species have been placed on this planet to be exploited and tormented by predatory humans.

Switzerland is light years ahead of Australia which is a country dictated to by the medieval swill who swagger through our halls of parliament and who pander to the greedy wishes of Australia's sub-terranean rodents and rock-apes.

But times are a-changin' cowboy. History will not afford you the respect and kindness you crave and which you deny to other sentient beings.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 17 May 2008 2:48:42 PM
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Yabby,

I have seen a few comments on other post where you point out the world is over populated.
I am just wondering what your thoughts are as to how this should be attacked.
It would be clear to everybody we have already lost more than one third of wild life. Fish life perhaps a little more.

You cant say throwing millions of sick and dead Animals along with the polution from these boats does not effect our system.

I am just wondering why you wouldnt object to live exports on that bassis alone.

Also reading many of your comments you clearly think we as people have the right to just take life from other animals.

So here the question and please answer it.

What IYOP do you think 'we' people are here for?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 17 May 2008 5:39:25 PM
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Muldoon lived alone in the WA countryside with only a pet dog for company. One day the dog died, and Muldoon went to the parish priest and asked, "Father, my dog is dead. Could ya' be saying' a mass for the poor creature?"

"Father Yabby (an animal hater) replied, "I'm afraid not; we cannot have services for an animal in the church. But there are some Baptists down the lane, and there's no tellin' what they believe. Maybe they'll do something for the creature."

"Muldoon said, "I'll go right away Father. Do ya' think $5,000 is enough to donate to them for the service?"

"Father Yabby exclaimed, "Sweet Mary, Mother of Jesus! Why didn't ya tell me the dog was Catholic?"
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 17 May 2008 7:13:05 PM
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The Live Export Industry will be the topic for the ABC Radio National -792- Australia Talks programme on Monday 19th at 6pm..The promo cites a leading Islamic Cleric raising legal opinion re the transportion and slaughter adhering to Islamic principles.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/

Last time I looked at the RSPA site it's poll about this trade showed 83% against and only 4% in favour--
Posted by digiwigi, Saturday, 17 May 2008 7:49:53 PM
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Many thanks Digiwigi. Much appreciated.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 17 May 2008 7:56:21 PM
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Hi all

Digiwigi, thanks heaps for that. To all those concerned (except Yabby, of course) please call and present your concerns.

Yabby, you are not a qualified veterinarian either, so are not in a position to objectively discuss animal suffering. Be a good lad and stay in your box. Unfortunately for you, the animal "libbers" are growing exponentially in numbers, both in this country and internationally, so you will have to get used to treating your animals humanely. Remember the "Five Freedoms"? Read them again.

PALE, once again, your cryptic post, with all the vague allegations it contains (are we to understand you are now threatening Hugh Wirth with something?) leads us to no conclusions about your exclusion from the Handle with Care negiotiations. You can't expect people to defend you on the basis of imprecise allegations. Why can you not progress your own ideas through the channels you say you already have? As we have said before, different organizations have their different strategies and philosophies - that's life and maybe you should move on and do your own thing.

Monday's discussions on the ABC might bring some enlightenment about a lot of things.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 17 May 2008 8:12:43 PM
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Nicky
Yes and there are a lot more surprises to come.
Quite frankly Nicky its clear who you are to us at pale.
That is why we were asked not to post to you.
Your personality has upset so many people over the years.
Thats a great pity for noth yourself and the animals.

Yes people have different ways of working and pale have lead the way involving Muslim leaders and forming MOUs with regards to Animal Welfare. All this time you lot have done nothing but rubbish us for this.
As for Hugh you know nothing of what I am posting about so why dont you simply butt out.
Hugh Wirth has a great deal of answering to do.
One would be why didnt he get this work to this stage instead of us?
For that matter why didnt Andrew ever request AFIC to assist.
He has twenty years before us to ask.

Its time people opended their eyes to whats really been going on with some Animal Welfare people.
Many people work from their own homes well into the small hours of the evening.
Some of these people are our own Muslim friends whom you Nicky have bagged endlessly
Surprise- Many of them are farmers and their wives and kids.

Thats right Nicky Muslim People farmers and their wives and families working with everyday housewives and half a dozen kind hearted lawyers giving their time for free.

It is the Muslim People with the help of the farmers and the everyday Aussies working united that will finally force so laws to the Animals.

So please try to stop your bagging of all farmers and Muslims and hope things will improve for the animals.
Regardless of anything else Nicky thats all that matters.

We are working for the animals and quite frankly bugger any body else!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 17 May 2008 8:47:06 PM
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*I'm confident you will have much in common*

You can be as confident as you like Dickie, as usual you will no doubt be wrong.
Where did I ever say that I agree with factory farming, as is commonly practised
by the Swiss? My animals don’t live on concrete, neither in cages, both standard
practise in Europe.

Just today I was sowing an oat crop in the splendid sunshine. The ewes and lambs
were happily grazing the new green growth, the dogs came along and went for a swim in the dam. Some wild ducks were eating some oats left over by the sheep.
I actually thought of you lot and about how distorted your views of the world are,
to think of all this as evil. You are clearly out of touch with reality.

The Swiss clearly prefer their factory farmed animals, for they largely deny me access to
their markets, for my naturally produced lamb.

So factory farming is light years ahead heh? Think again Dickie.

Gertrude , yes I think that the world is overpopulated. The main culprit IMHO is
still the Catholic Church, or rather the Vatican. Dickie’s old employer perchance,
who do whatever they can to deny third world women modern family planning,
from the condom, the snip, the pill, you name it, they are against it. Human
suffering is considered “noble” according to warped Catholic dogma. So third
world women pop em out in record numbers whether they want them or not,
our planet keeps growing by 80 million or so a year. The ever growing human
population is our no 1 problem, until we start to get real about dealing with that,
you can forget the rest.

We people Gertrude, are just another species in the scheme of evolution. We
developed slightly larger brains then some of our primate cousins and the ability
to pronounce more then just vowel sounds, unlike them. That meant that language
could evolve in humans, which meant that it was easier for us to share our information. 6 billion brains working together, gives few other species a-chance
to-compete.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 17 May 2008 9:05:04 PM
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*Yabby, you are not a qualified veterinarian either, so are not in a position to objectively discuss animal suffering. Be a good lad and stay in your box.*

Nicky, I never claimed to be a vet, but certainly claimed that you
arn't one, with no qualifications or experience. What I have over
you is 30 years of experience, working with livestock daily.
Your qualifications amount to little more then owning a dog.

You OTOH are still to learn about the difference between a sheep
and a dog. You have lots to learn girl!
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 17 May 2008 9:11:25 PM
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"Gertrude , yes I think that the world is overpopulated. The main culprit IMHO is still the Catholic Church, or rather the Vatican."

Hey Yabbadoo. How dumb are you? Your vitriol towards the Catholic church (I'm not a member) is spewed all over OLO. Nothing wrong with that except for your pig ignorance.

Muslims are the largest religion in the world and increasing. Catholic numbers are declining.

Largest populated countries - China, India and the US and not a "Catholic" country in sight.

"Just today I was sowing an oat crop in the splendid sunshine. The ewes and lambs were happily grazing the new green growth,"

Oh Yabby. That's so cute. When will you be loading these lovely ewes and lambs on the ships of death? I'll come down to Freo to bid them cheerio and what do you look like? I'm reluctant to knee the wrong jerk.

And why did the plight of the Burmese come to mind today when I was thinking about live exports? Ah.... that's right. 40,000 animals overboard last year and 75,000 2 or 3 years ago which could have fed the starving Burmese or a myriad of other nationalities struggling to survive the wrath of Mother Nature.

Never mind Yabbadoo. Your time is drawing near, along with the rest of the Philistines who have the blood of the defenceless on their hands.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 17 May 2008 11:17:32 PM
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Hi all

Dickie, I don't know about you, but I think I've had enough of this thread. Yabby's self-interested propaganda is one thing, but the tragic, baseless rubbish PALE keeps coming up with is boring me to oblivion.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not condemn all Muslims, nor all farmers, only some of each for some of the activities they get involved in.

PALE, for the record, Andrew Bartlett entered the Senate in about 1997, from memory. Before that, I understand he was a Social Worker. You could check his website to confirm that. "Do the maths", as the Americans say. Nor has PALE been around for 20 years, by its own admission.

Andrew Bartlett has clearly made a reasoned judgment about why he does not want to get involved with you, and I suspect it is because of the claptrap you consistently assail us with, without foundation, and using the worst communication skills most of us have the misfortune to try and interpret. You have probably made his life a misery, and he would be protecting his credibility in his choice of association. That is his absolute right, as it is the right of "all the others" who have made the same judgments about PALE and its questionable claims.

I did not raise Hugh Wirth, you did, and frankly, I couldn't care less what your differences with him are, or about your delusions concerning my identity either.

Your strategy has clearly gone nowhere, in all the time you claim to have been working on it, otherwise we would all certainly know about it. What precisely have your "MoUs with Muslim leaders" achieved? Absolutely nothing.

I remind you that most people working on animal welfare matters do so without payment and "into the small hours". I think it is an excellent idea (your first and only one) that you do not communicate with my posts again. I really can't be bothered since you cannot learn from the fact that people have clearly very understandable and valid reasons for choosing not to have anything to do with you.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 17 May 2008 11:51:12 PM
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Hi again all

Yabby, you may have "30 years experience working with livestock", but you totally fail to grasp that a sheep and a dog have the sane sentience and capacity to suffer. THAT is the bottom line. And you don't need to be a vet to know that. BTW, do you mules them yourself or get someone else to do the dirty work?

It is a pretty picture that you present, the ewes and lambs grazing, but if there were a few extra bucks to be made, would you not be using intensive systems (such as those used for ultra-fine wool)? Bet you wouldn't give it a second thought.

Your ewes and lambs also will not live to anything even apporoaching a normal life-span, they will be hauled off to slaughter, or live export, in a second. Their blood is on your hands.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 18 May 2008 12:53:33 AM
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Yabby said

The ever growing human
Population is our no 1 problem, until we start to get real about dealing with that,
You can forget the rest.
Pale=
Yes I agree but it’s hard to know where to attack it. What I meant about people Yabby was just why they are here at all.

I mean if they have such large brains you would have thoughts they could do it a lot better.


Human nature is not as nice as your sheep in the paddock or my horse’s cow etc.

If I walk into my pantry at 2am in the morning to get something sweet to keep me awake while I catch up on something my little lorry will know as soon as I touch it.

I can get anything else and she won’t worry and simply remains asleep.
There is no way she can see it or hear the place is huge, but she knows anyway.

I suspect we people only think we are smarter. We are destroying our own world.

As for Catholics they were not as smart as Mohamed. You have got to admit making food a major part of religion and law all in one was pretty smart.

It’s disappointing to see the same old comments from the extreme.

You know I hate live exports but for God sake wouldn’t you have thought people would have by now learned to attack the government both fed and state and the live animal shipping agents but bend over backwards to work with farmers instead of bagging them and the Muslim people who buy them for ME.

There is a place in USA where they used to breed cattle free range and slaughter by walking them down the road slowly daily.

Its just seems better and I can’t see why we can’t do that here. Better product and far more tender while saving heaps on transport.
WA I hope will soon have a new player.

Whatever happens at the end of the day we need to value add in Australia.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 18 May 2008 1:38:55 AM
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*Catholic numbers are declining.*

Numbers are declining in the West, as more and more tell the RCC to get stuffed.
Not so in Africa, where they can still prey on the uneducated and gullible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm

Read the transcript link. The last pope was a fanatic.

*I'm reluctant to knee
the wrong jerk.*

Ok, so a more complete picture emerges. Dickie is clearly a violent old battle-axe!

*but you totally fail to grasp that
a sheep and a dog have the sane sentience and capacity to suffer.*

Where did I deny that sheep are sentient or can suffer? My point is that you make
exactly the same mistake that most people make. You try to judge their situation through your eyes and perceptions of the world, rather then try to understand how
they view the world and their perceptions of it. Dogs, Nicky and sheep have quite
different perceptions, as they are different species, driven by different instincts.
That is the bottom line!

If there were an old dead sheep in the bottom of your garden, you would hold your
nose as you walked past it. Another sheep would basically ignore it, your dogs would
either try to chew a bit of it or roll in the remains, rub that smell all over themselves
in delight! Different species means different perceptions. (unless of course you want
to go and roll in old dead sheep carcasses ) :)

*Bet you wouldn't give it a second thought.*

Bet you are wrong, it shows how little you know about farming and farmers. It’s a constant accusation that farmers face. Focussing too much on the lifestyle and not enough on the bottom line. That is why corporate farming is moving in and will
eventually take over large sections of Australian agriculture.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 18 May 2008 9:05:11 AM
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Hi all

Yabby, behaviours, perceptions and capacity to suffer are vastly different characteristics. Even you must see that.

The "violence" Dickie is offering is far less than that you visit upon your animals, too.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 18 May 2008 2:16:30 PM
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Yes Nicky, they are different, but they are also related. Understanding the differences and also the relationships,
is where experience matters. That is where you get it so
wrong, mainly out of ignorance.

As for procedures performed to livestock, I remind you that it is
in the interest of farmers for their livestock to thrive.
Things are not done just for fun, but out of experience suggesting
that its the best thing to do and that the livestock will benefit.

No different to moms taking their kids to the dentist, no matter
how much they hate it.

Dickie on the other hand, is clearly a violent old battle-axe,
because she simply does not understand these things. Working
in an office all your life, does not teach you them either.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 18 May 2008 2:52:39 PM
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Howdy Cowboy

Ah've jist flown in from the Million Paws walk and boy ah mah arms tard!

And I see you've been creating more mishief during my absence.

"Things are not done just for fun, but out of experience suggesting
that its the best thing to do and that the livestock will benefit."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/18/2220876.htm

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,23707538-3462,00.html

Seems there's no end to the "benefits" you and the other primitive stone-pounding troglodytes provide for the animals is there?
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 18 May 2008 11:19:51 PM
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While we dont agree with live exports i think its important we understand the position farmers have been placed in by State Governments along with Federal.
Yabby and myself could argue until the cows come home- I wish.
However lets look on the other side of the argument.
He isnt a fan of intensive farming.
He hasnt said he is against more Abattoirs being built. In fact I think he said he has been quite vocal about that to the WA Government.
I am sure there are plenty of farmers who would jump at the chance to sell their stock to be slaughtered locally given the chance.
Sure they might not post on OLO but deep down they might reckon its the right thing to do.
However there are few options especially in WA.
So here are our clear options.
We either force the State Government to get off their arse- OK Impossible.
OK We bring in the investors ourselves to do their job for them
If we dont help these free range farmers by getting some compertion they will all be replaced by big compaines and all be stuck in feed lots.
I just think its counter productive to pass the buck back to farmers.

Lets get some plants build and value adding happening. Thats the only answer to live animal exports.

btw. Yabby has given all a chance to debate this and tossed in quite a bit 0f information.
Please consider- and before you start NO I dont agree with his ideas that a few dying that way is ok
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 18 May 2008 11:42:34 PM
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Hi all

Go Dickie! Good on ya! Did you have a four-legged companion? I went once with a pig, with whom we also visited various other venues. Those news stories were very telling, weren't they, particularly the recency.

Yabby, my point was - since you are so aware of the capacity of all animals to suffer, how can you possibly justify what you do to them? You give them a pre-determined few months of relatively normal life, thinking that makes if "okay", then expose them to terrible suffering. Transport across the country under all conditions, live exports ... the list is endless. Why do you not, for example, farm and otherwise brutalize dogs and cats as the Koreans and the Chinese do? Or do you have no problem with that because it makes the "starving multitides" a quid? Are those animals better never to have been born? I think so. Where is the "line in the sand"?

There is absolutely no difference, cruelty to one species is the same as cruelty to others. That includes "farmed" animals and animals used in laboratories and in so-called "entertainment" (circuses, rodeos, etc). Cruelty and suffering mean just that, cruelty and suffering.

THAT'S what you people cannot seem to get your heads around. Instead of bitching about the lack of processing facilities (slaughterhouses) in WA, DO something about it.

BTW, what makes you think I work in an office? You have no way of knowing what I do or where I do it.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 19 May 2008 12:13:26 AM
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Hi again all

One more thing. It is too easy to blame State (not that they have a great deal to do with it except in WA, the rest just turn a blind eye because they can) and Federal governments and the AVA.

If the farmers did not deliberately breed (over-breed?) and supply the animals, there would be no trade. Let's be absolutely clear about this; it's about greed at many levels.

It's also about the morals of the people who supply the animals, in the full knowledge of what will happen to them (and that nothing will change that, despite Yabby's and Rojo's oft-quoted mantra from the gospel of MLA) as much as those who facilitate the process in one form or another.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 19 May 2008 12:21:31 AM
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Nicky said

THAT'S what you people cannot seem to get your heads around. Instead of bitching about the lack of processing facilities (slaughterhouses) in WA, DO something about it.

Pale Comments
With utter discust.

This is beyond the pale. We have done something and been baqgged for it by all you libbers.
We have invited all of you to assist us in reopening Slaughter houses not only in WA but Australia wide!

Your response or your lots reponse was to black list pale. Names such as Animal Killers etc came flowing thick and rich. You yourself have accused us of similar on this thread on many occassions.

Again I refer to all 'those' letters which clearly read.

Dear pale we can not be involved with anything to do with reopening Abattoirs. etc

Then you have the cheek to say why dont you DO something about it.

We are Nicky and we have done many things towards this that you couldnt even begin to comprehend.

You lot had years to assist the Animals in this way.

Now your buddies want to jump on board and are working behind our back trying to destroy our efforts.

The question IS what makes you lot tick.

As I said for years we have told you all we must reopen the plants.

The fact is we have requested over and over again for others to also DO something and not just leave it to us.

So why dont you DO something instead of bagging farmers Muslims and the only group who has been DOING something?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 19 May 2008 1:06:44 AM
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dickie,dickie,dickie,
sorry to have ruffled your feathers so badly but really my 7 year old has more convincing displays of mock indignation. Did I miss a reference to the Canadian diagnosis in question?

Now you're infering more potential govt conspiracies? You of course are assuming that "suppressed" evidence is supportive of your argument- works both ways.

BSE and vCJD are certainly interesting topics. Clearly the incidences of vCJD are declining, though with an undefined incubation period cases will eventuate for years to come. I think the concern should be on the chances of new infection, which appear slim by any stretch of the imagination. With the total number of cases of vCJD remaining below 200 worldwide so far, I won't be losing too much sleep about it. Not when you think of say AIDS having claimed a reported 20 million lives, with no link to cattle or sheep.

Zoonotic diseases have a huge pool from which to emerge, and indeed are a concern. From memory humans are affected by a fraction of one percent of the pathogens in the animal kingdom.

So is it the lack of fibre or the red meat that is a risk factor for bowel cancer? Lack of exercise?

digiwigi, what exactly would you expect people who choose to visit the RSPCA site to vote for?
I wonder what the reponse would be if the question was: "Would you give $10 per year to end live exports?"

Nicky, if there was demand for cat and dog meat on a commercial level we would be able to export our feral cats and wild dogs at a profit instead of leaving them where they drop( or the ritual for some of hanging them up).

"If the farmers did not deliberately breed (over-breed?) and supply the animals, there would be no trade."
There's an enlightening statement, but the reality is they use their resources to the best of their abilities to make a living. If you wish to change this you have to supply an equivalent alternate income, or buy the land and do what you want with it.
Posted by rojo, Monday, 19 May 2008 2:50:37 AM
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digiwigi,

Hi there Thanks. We were not ignoring your post or the ABC talk on line just wanted to wait for some further info as a result of that before posting.
When I was talking to Heather last week ashe said this Government were more interested to stop live exports and thats not the way I see it at all.

I think the Rudd Government have gone out of their way to avoid having it put to them pre election by the public. They planned to present a different face as their pre election pitch then just dump the spokes person and carry on with their agenda to expand the cruel live export trade.

$10.00 to Ban Live exports?

Umm, well Rojo I am sure people would pay that if only it were that simple.
Mind you I suppose if they put that funding reopnening slaughter houses here in Australia then it might do a lot of good.

I will put it up as a suggestion to Muslim Leaders and see if they cant help to match it dollar for dollar through their brothers and sister who also oppose the cruelty of the live animal trade.

Rojo I cant say I agree with the statement about over breeeding for many reasons. I will try to catch up on in our next post.

However I do agree with people buying land- and lots of it.

Lot of free range land so animals dont have to live in intensive farms.
I think that would be a positive thing for All Animal Welfare Groups world wide to donate to along with public.

At least that way the public could see they were really making a difference with their donations.

Just imagine the good we could do with some of the funding from peta rspca AL Voiceless for example. Just mentioning some of the bigger ones for now).

Wow, Yes that would make a huge difference to stop intensive farming


Rojo catch up with you re over breeeding next post.

Interesting days at the moment.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 19 May 2008 7:49:11 AM
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"Now you're infering more potential govt conspiracies?"

Rojo

How you continue to manipulate the facts, twisting and turning them to support a sickening and immoral industry.

My seven year old grandie could see that it was not I inferring more "potential government conspiracies." There ARE government conspiracies! My provision of two investigative articles were written by Irene Moss, former chair of the Independent Commission Against Corruption and two Academics at the University of Western Australia - both independent of each other. Did you believe these were MY investigations? I reiterate, please keep both hands on the keyboard.

Furthermore, you may continue to downplay the continuing emergence of zoonotic diseases - that is to be expected since the livestock industry couldn't care less about the global emergence of zoonoses - SARS, Ebola, Avian flu, BSE etc. Profits are the bottom line.

And now that you have become an expert on Zoonoses, banging on about AIDs, have you considered that all HIVs are derived from simian species? The source of human AIDs, however, continues to baffle the experts. Nevertheless, it is a human infectious disease of animal origin and I am reasonably well read on the theories of the origins of AIDs - theories which I will not bore other posters with at this stage.

However, zoonoses is a result of humans' abominable treatment of animals and intensive farming. This treatment you continue to endorse. Please, could you warn Yabby about his association with Willy the wether?

Pale

Your posts are becoming more incoherent - more unreasonable. Luckily Nicky appears to be made of strong stuff to endure all your petulant retorts. People who seek unconditional justice for defenceless animals have to be strong to withstand what you are dishing out. They will not compromise their principles by assisting you in your commercial ventures.

Why don't you and your Muslim associates take out a loan to establish your slaughterhouse?

You wont find any investors on this thread - though you could dangle a large lucrative carrot at Yabby and Rojo - you know - a big whack of all the profits?

Cheers
Posted by dickie, Monday, 19 May 2008 11:42:01 AM
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http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/200805/s2248671.htm

By the way Rojo. Do you and the Yabba like apple sauce with roast pig?
Posted by dickie, Monday, 19 May 2008 12:24:20 PM
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Hi all

PALE (YAWN!) I reiterate that I have never "blacklisted" anyone, nor encouraged anyone else to do so. It seems ironic that they have all come to the same conclusions about PALE, though. Nor have I ever made a comment in relation to "animal killers" - but you do, in every post. Read Dickie's post (thanks, Dickie! It's nothing I haven't seen/read before, to the point where it induces terminal inertia) if you won't take it from me.

You consistently show a conflict of interest, between your directorship of a COMMERCIALLY BASED slaughtering outfit (which does not actually appear to be operating anywhere) your claims of "working for animal welfare". If your way was the way, it would got somewhere by now, but oddly, we hear nothing of actual achievements in terms of real animals WELFARE. Just "help us open slaughterhouses". For God's sake, why would any thinking animal advocate do that? Think about it. I couldn't even begin to imagine why PETA, AL or AA would consider giving PALE money. As Dickie suggests, if your Muslim friends (if they still exist on PALE radar) are as committed as you claim why are they not throwing money? Have you also burned your bridges with the RSPCA? If the others have gone in and made inroads, good for them, You appear to have got nowhere with your totally unreasonable attitudes.

And look up "disgusting" (just backing up Dickie's comment about incoherence).

If your posts on these forums are any indication of the professional standards of PALE then I'm afraid I'm not surprised that no-one apparently wants to be tarnished by them. I don't know about everyone else, but I begin to suspect that PALE constitutes one person, whose degree of coherence varies according to the time of day the post is written. I said I wouldn't respond to any further posts from you, and will attempt to make this my last.

Rojo, you confirm my suspicions that you are of the thinking that every creature on earth is for human exploitation, the degree of cruelty notwithstanding.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 19 May 2008 7:09:32 PM
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*I went once with a pig, with whom we also visited various other venues.*

Sheesh Nicky, there you claim that animals should live as naturally as possible, then you drag
them around like a circus performer. Luckily none of my animals have to put up with that kind
of nonsense, they live naturally and do natural things. Not a collar or chain in sight.
Clearly you don’t practise what you preach.

*how can you possibly justify what you do to them?*

What do you think I have done, that I can’t justify?

*then expose them to terrible suffering.*

When did I expose them to terrible suffering?

*If the farmers did not deliberately breed (over-breed?) and supply the animals, there would be no trade*

Firstly Nicky, I don’t breed lol. I just take your advice, don’t apply any rings to my ram lambs and by the time they are 4-5 months, they are banging their aunties. All rather natural lol. I sell the surplus of
my livestock, to prevent the others dying of starvation, for as you know, populations have to be sustainable. Animals and even some women, have huge instinctive drives to breed. One of my girls
in the pet flock, broke out and jumped 2 fences to get to be with her boyfriend. Some of you girls are
no different, when on heat and wanting babies :)

*Instead of bitching about the lack of processing facilities (slaughterhouses) in WA, DO something about it.*

Ah Nicky, you don’t seem to understand what the role of being a primary producer is. We don’t own
bakeries or breakfast cereal companies. We rely on you largely lazy suburbanites, to do more then
just trade houses with each other and value add our primary products. If you are too lazy or stupid,
we find another market. If you don’t like the markets they are going to, find another market for
us, which pays market value. Farmers have to pay their bills, like everyone else does.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 19 May 2008 8:27:14 PM
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*BTW, what makes you think I work in an office? You have no way of knowing what I do or where I do it.*

You are of course correct Nicky, for I can only judge you by what
you have told us. So far its been that you sometimes teach students
and sometimes correct the papers which they write.

I made the mistake of presuming that you might correct their papers,
sitting in your office. I could well be wrong, you might well be
sitting on your toilet, as you do your work.

With you vegans, anything is possible lol, so I take nothing
for granted and if I did, then its clearly my mistake.

You will be as eccentric as you choose to be, fair enough.

That does not however change the basic premise of the argument.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 19 May 2008 11:11:31 PM
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Hi all
Yabby, thanks for bringing me back on track. What IS the argument? I don't actually work in, or especially on, a toilet. I do have an office, but that does not mean I work exclusively in it, I do lots and lots of things in lots and lots of places. As for the pig(let), surely you know that they thrive on social contact as do dogs. She was absolutely fine, no stress, and only "visiting" for an hour or so at a time (especially when the (four, no less) security guards at a shopping centre got edgy with us, telling us we couldn't have dogs there. We had to point out that it wasn't in fact a dog, but luckily we were ready to leave at that point anyway).

As for what you do, it was you who said you truck animals across the country, send them to slaughterhouses (do us all a favour, if you MUST do it send them to PALE!) and put them on live export ships. If the proverbial cap fits...

As for banging your auntie, I'm really disturbed to hear that. Is it common amongst the esteemed farming community in WA? Sounds like you all need help.

I never got that urge to breed (how lucky is that?). I saw childbirth on television and decided it wasn't for me. Absolutely no dignity, my sister, who did, tells me.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 19 May 2008 11:31:11 PM
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dickie, thankyou, but an expert I'm not. I am however reasonably well versed in zoonotic diseases too, though it seems you are the one "banging on" about them, I'm not the one bringing them up in the first place.

Quite incorrect, I don't downplay the dangers of zoonotic disease at all, I just put them in perspective with regard to farming. 20 million aids deaths, 30 million suffering- no link to cattle, sheep(would I say so without knowing it's likely origin) compared with vCJD less than 200 deaths, SARS 800 deaths, bird flu 2-300 deaths.
Frankly the scenario you depict about livestock farming is an exaggeration, but I wouldn't expect anything less.

It's a shame you can't address the issues, but prefer to make crude innuendoes, I'm beginning to think your brusque demeanor hides a certain insecurity, and some quite poor comprehension skills.
I did not say you thought up the govt conspiracies, but that you presented them as part of your argument, arguments more of inference(re:livestock farming) than fact. The question I pose to you is what do you believe govt covered up and on what basis?(we can confine it to livestock diseases for convienience and relevance).

yes, i do in fact like apple sauce with my pork roast.

Nicky, I can only assume your statement about your suspicions is based on the fact that I prefer native wildlife to feral cats and dogs. If you believe that they should be free to kill indiscriminately basically defenceless, often endangered fauna thats up to you.
My views on ferals has nothing to do with exploitation, but I wouldn't waste a resource if there were a market, it would save something elses life.
Posted by rojo, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 12:57:16 AM
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Some facts.

You both spend your 'whole olo lives' 'insisting' your not with any veggie groups.{ Personally I dont care because unlike you girls pale supports all animal lovers)

Then you continue to post 'word for word off their sites and policies for years like parrots.'

We know the veggie groups oppose our reopening of abattoirs 'because they were stupid enough to put it in writing on their letter heads.'

What you dont know is pale regarless support all animal welfare groups but like others uphold certain personal views.

For a start we are working with RSPCA QLD which of course upsets many.
Then of course pale work with Muslim leaders and farmers.

Of course to you girls that would make no sense at all.

I mean why would animal lovers unlike yourselves and friends even think about being friendly with farmers and Muslims!


Who does this pale mob think they are to speak out and act outside the clicky little veggie circle.

I mean for goodness sake if you lot claim to be demanding that live be diverted to chilled -it makes heaps of sense to try to stop the only group in this country actually working on fixing the problem.

IMOP as I said a year ago you two girls are on a mission for your friends to rubbish pale.

Thats ok, you go right ahead to highlight the differences in groups and approaches.

Your doing us an enourmous favour. People email us on a weekly and sometimes daily bassis to enquire what they can we do to help towards working on the answer to the problem rather than protest against people eating meat.

No pale wont fall into this silent control thats been in place for many years.

We wont ask permission to make a statement to anybody.

If we have something to say that we feel might help animals we just say it.

Get used to it.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 5:52:39 AM
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Hi all

Dear me, Dickie, you and I seem to have ruffled an inordinate number of feathers now. I'll deal with Rojo first. Rojo, "feral" animals are out there as a result of human neglect, indifference, neglect and/or ignorance, and I therefore believe that if there must be control then it has to be humane. It seems that once an animal is regarded as "feral" or "pest" any means of disposing of it seems to be "acceptable" regardless of how cruel they may be (like 1080 poison). In particular, steel-jawed traps and 1080, and strychnine and like methods are totally indefensible. These animals are not merely "marketable commodities" as you people think all animals are.

PALE, I can't remember when I have quoted from the websites of any of the organizations you claim to be your enemies, but if I did, I stand corrected. I don't generally find I that need to. Frankly, I don't (and I'm sure Dickie doesn't either) care in the least who or what you think, in your delusions, I am or what wicked, mythical organizations you suspect me of being a member of, nor do I care what PALE is doing (which seems to be mostly about attacking every other animal advocate in the country, but other than that seems to be remarkably little in terms of real animal welfare improvements).

But if this is an indication of how PALE "supports" the other groups, then it is fortunate that they do not rely on it in any way, and are more than capable of progressing their own initiatives without any "assistance" from you.

Get used to it.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 7:28:06 PM
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*I do have an office, but that does not mean I work exclusively in it,*

Ok that confirms my point, I never claimed you worked exclusively
in it. I just had to drag it out of you lol.

*She was absolutely fine, no stress, and only "visiting" for an hour or so at a time *

Thats not the point. Race horses and circus animals can be absolutaly
fine too, yet you condem them. Either you believe that animals should
live natural lives, or you start leading them around on a leash.
Clearly you make up your philosophies as you go along, to suit the
occasion and how you feel.

Actually no Nicky, I don't put them on long truck journeys or on
ships, other people do. I sell them usually with an on farm price,
or delivered within 2 hours. The money pays for the costs of feeding
and maintaining the rest of the flock, so their relations benefit.

*As for banging your auntie, I'm really disturbed to hear that.*

Nicky you refuse to understand nature. Its their aunties they bang,
as its natural. We don't need to breed them, they do it all by
themselves. It seems you think that they should not lead natural
lives after all. Once again, you are confused, for lack of understanding of other species.

*Absolutely no dignity, my sister, who did, tells me.*

Well no dignity either, when you sit on the toilet Nicky,
that's just life.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 8:43:27 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/conservation/kangaroo-cull-protest-blunder/2008/05/20/1211182776399.html

Nicky, now your mob are upsetting the kangaroos! What amazes me
is when people like Peter Garrett can see it, but like fanatics,
you lot seem blind to the realities of nature.

The psychology behind it, kind of interests me. Is it your own
terrible fear of death? So you empathise with others and are
overwhelmed with irrational emotions perhaps.

One thing that living amongst nature has taught me, is to accept
death as I accept birth, as all part of the natural cycle.
To some it happens sooner, to some later, some never live at
all, but could have been.

When your little sperm swam like hell, tens of millions of others
perished and were flushed down life's toilet, so that you may
live. Are you feeling guilty?

If you start to accept nature for what it is, rather then flipping
out on other weird philosophies, then the world makes huge sense
as it is. But that would be well beyond you to understand,
as you follow your feelings.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 9:07:51 PM
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Hi all

Yabby, you have a rather different understanding of nature from mine, and Peter Garrett, if you recall, is the man who was right in there for conservation and environmentalism until he became a politician, and approved such abominations as this, and the Tasmanian Pulp Mill to name a couple of examples. One wonders what species the kangaroos are "harming"; I suspect Garrett doesn't know either.

He is also part of a government which "abhors" cruelty to animals yet expands the live export trade back into Egypt (how many chances do those particular savages - and I use the term deliberately - get?).

Your notion of "nature" is that animals live only as long as you (humans generally) allow them to, and in that time, and beyond it, they are to be exploited to the maximum. Nothing especially natural about that, I'm afraid.

While you may not personally put the animals on truck journeys across the country or on live export ships, you sell them in the full knowledge that either or both of those are the outcome. So you are not in any position to take any moral high ground over those who actually do it personally.

I am touched by your interest in what I do, which includes taking social animals on outings on the odd occasion, after which they are very swiftly returned to the "natural" lives where they will definitely live a natural lifespan. That is vastly different from what happens to them at racetracks, rodeos, circuses and zoos.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 11:13:30 PM
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I stated before there is 'nothing wrong 'with a person BAR 'their intention'.

Its clear to everybody that you do not like pale.

Nor does the so called peak leaders? ( self appointed) animal liberation people Animals Autralia or PETA WSPA.etc
RSPCA National Hugh head of WSPA.


Lets for example look at pales MOU with Muslims Leaders dealing with Animal Welfare. It cleary states we work from head office to head office.

I mean thats a legal document that has been acted on for six years.

We kept asking Animals Australia and Hugh the president of WSPA to meetings but they declined.

Now however we get a letter rejecting again our latest offer saying- The Handle with Care WSPA whom Hugh is President of again decline your invatation to meet with Muslim Leaders however have decided to approach AFIC excluding pale.?

( Thruth is we heard well before that but wanted it in writing)

Umm, So heres the thing. Hugh doesnt seem to understand =what a MOU is.

That might go some way to understanding some problems in the past.

For WSPA to put AFIC or anybody else in such a difficult legal position to ignore the law is curious and concerning.

Especially when our groups has worked in conjunction with RSPCA QLD for many years.

I mean you would have to forgive people for asking what on earth is really going on with Animal Welfare in this country behind the public scene.?

You would wonder "why they wanted to shaft us" after we did all the work and lead the way if you were in our position too.

After all they were invited by pale for many years. Whats all the sour grapes for?

Is it only their egos and any funding- perhaps?

Or is it something more?

We are concerned enough by the behavouir of 'some' 'people'to call for an enquiry in animal welfare heads.

pale are very serious players with many lawyers who have put in enormous efforts working with Muslims leaders to improve animal welfare.
As we wspa- Handle with Care guys?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:16:58 AM
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PALE&IF: << After all they were invited by pale for many years. Whats all the sour grapes for? >>

If PALE&IF's antics in this forum are any indication of their professionalism and networking ability, it's pretty obvious why any reputable organisation would be reluctant to be associated with them.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 6:41:28 AM
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Nickysaid
But if this is an indication of how PALE "supports" the other groups, then it is fortunate that they do not rely on it in any way, and are more than capable of progressing their own initiatives without any "assistance" from you.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 20 May 2008 7:28:06 PM
Pale comments
Ar, apparentlty not Nicky, otherwise why would they want to sneak in the back door to grab the credit and whatever else we achieved expecting Muslim leaders to disregard their MOU with pale.

They are 'fully aware' pale and AFIC have a MOU which is legal and binding document.

It doesnt say much IMOP about the credabilty and moral ethics of some.

First time others have stood up to them.

I really dont know because we are always too busy working for the animals to spend much time to worry.

You would know more about those things having dedicated 'most of your posts' to bagging others instead of really doing something to help animals.

We have made through olo offers to you to meet our lawyers and our Muslim Contacts. We were genioun with those offers. No not our Nicky shes too busy being loyal and forgetting this after all is about the animals.
Thatleaves you in my eyes with zero credabilty. imop your on olo to rubbish pale for your buddies.

Do try to get it through your head Yabbys a farmer not a shipping agent.
He HAS lobbied for plants (Slaughter houses0 to be reopended which is far more than YOU do.



What is important is that "everybody' put the 'animals first'.

That is what we do. Perhaps your lot should try it some time.

Oh and Nicky- Please remember this projects was established to stop live exports and fund RSPCA and AA.


Perhaps you could be helpful to the animals if we use your posts as an example of the types we "dont wont."

Sad = we know you care about animals- but Nicky your personality detroys your efforts.

More men involved and less catty women IMOP is part of the solution
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:54:57 AM
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Now here is a joke for all. We have a live importers giving awards to the exporter. Hilarious.

Still who else have these cruel bastards got onside- NOBODY.

BTW Muslim Leaders have told MLA they don’t need animals alive for religious purposes. So why are MLA saying the do on radio. Why ARE MLA challenging RSPCA.

. I think Rudd should step in and demand MLA and others stop interfering with the duties of RSPCA.

http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/news/article/773209.aspx

International welfare award for Australian live exports
20/05/2008 11:05:00 ARE
Australian farmers and exporters have achieved international recognition for their outstanding contribution to animal welfare, with livestock export industry body, LiveCorp, receiving the Animal Transportation Association’s (AATA) International Award at the AATA Annual Conference in Dresden, Germany.
The AATA, a not-for-profit association, dedicated to the safe and humane transportation of animals worldwide, presented LiveCorp with the International Award for its outstanding contribution to the welfare of animals in international commerce.
LiveCorp CEO, Cameron Hall, said international recognition of Australia’s commitment to animal welfare was a loud and positive endorsement of Australia’s livestock export industry.
“Australians should be proud that the strong partnership of the Federal Government and Australia’s farmers and exporters, through Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA) and LiveCorp, is receiving international applause for its ongoing and active commitment to improving animal welfare in Australia and in overseas destinations,” said Mr Hall.
“Australia is a world-leader in the live transport of animals overseas. We are dedicated to improving standards in the countries we export to through investment in training, education and development of facilities and infrastructure.


How To Germany - Storefront
Originally founded in 1969 in support of the US Forces in Germany, ... The AATA Animal Air Transport Association seal of approval assure your animal's safe ...
www.howtogermany.com/storefronts/gradlyn.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

Interesting company to search. Fasinating contacts.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 8:16:12 AM
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"what do you believe govt covered up and on what basis?"

Contact Irene Moss Rojo but get yourself a brain first. If I knew of the precise issues covered up, I would have noted them.

"Australia had 355 laws with specific secrecy provisions, covering not only security and gaming but also wool, livestock, food and grain."

Four of the six areas which concerned Irene Moss were agriculture. This warrants cause for alarm particularly when she advised:

"The emergence of big public relations firms, used by both corporations and government to "spin" information, was also eroding access to information." So why does Livecorp and MLA come to mind?

This week the media (not the piggeries!) warned that pigs in six Western Australian piggeries had high levels of lead in their systems so how many consumers are now contaminated with lead? Heavy metals are bioaccumulative!

Rojo, please now comment on the following links I previously provided for you and which you continue to selectively ignore:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/18/2220876.htm

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,23707538-3462,00.html

Nicky

Note how the Yabby continues to slyly resort to sexual innuendo? Bit scary eh?

And who listened to "Bob" on the ABC's live exports? The one with the crude accent? Blimey, it was enough to bring tears to one's eyes. He advised that fifty percent of WA's sheep are grown for export. Yabby errrr sorry, Bob then went on to warn if live exports ceased, communities would be devastated and the farmers would suicide. Eeeh by goom ....tharrrt's orfool!

"You both spend your 'whole olo lives' 'insisting' your not with any veggie groups. Then you continue to post 'word for word off their sites and policies for years like parrots." (Pale)

Pale. I also glean information from other sites - the Australian Journal of Mining, the Guardian, the National Toxics Network and a myriad of other informative websites of which I am not a member.

"Veggie" sites, as you describe them, offer very valuable information. Whether I am a member or not, is not your business and should not have you frothing at the mouth so why the catatonics?
Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 8:16:54 AM
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Hi all

Yes, Dickie. But innuendo is perhaps a bit too kind; overt is more like it. Yabby has an obsession with hormones, and his aunties, from an earlier post. But I do recognize that he probably treats how own animals very well for as long as he lets them live. Rojo probably does too.

PALE, a few facts. Unless posters here are as thick as stumps, and I don't for a minute think they are, I think I have made my views of PALE's behaviour quite clear. Most people have, looking at other threads, but you do bring it on yourself with your rantings. I'd suggest that the "sour grapes" are on the part of PALE and no-one else - the rest of us, and the animal advocacy groups, seem to be functioning normally and professionally. Think about that.

Further, "Memorandum of Understanding" does not rate even a mention in the Macquarie Legal Dictionary or Butterworth's Legal Dictionary, however it is described by Wikipedia as:-

"a document describing a bilateral or multilateral agreement between parties. It expresses a convergence of will between the parties, indicating an intended common line of action. It most often is used in cases where parties do not intend to imply a legal commitment. It is a more formal alternative to a gentlemen's agreement". It would be interesting to know to what extent you think your MoU is legally binding.

So unless your MoU/s are framed as legally binding documents (contract - by your "team of lawyers") either side can opt out at any time. I hope you trust your Muslim friends to resist the evil infiltration by your "enemies", Hugh Wirth, WSPA, AA and everyone else whose lives you have made impossible. I suspect your "enemies" are well aware of that. Incidentally, to what extent has PALE "funded" the RSPCA and AA? I am fascinated by that.

Your MoU/s do not seem to have any perceivable outcomes either. What do they actually do? Simply attempt to prevent AFIC from entering discussions with any other organizations, or do they contain something a bit meaningful?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:37:51 PM
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Hi again, all

Perhaps PALE would enlighten us all about what actual outcomes it has achieved as a group in real animal welfare improvements, in comparison with, for example, PETA, Animal Liberation and Animals Australia; even www.liveexportshame.com, which does not apparently claim to be an active "organization" is more worthwhile.

They claim to have "worked to end live exports" in conjunction with the RSPCA. Live exports have declined, perhaps PALE could tell us how they directly contributed to that.

How have their Memoranda of Understanding actually worked? What has AFIC done apart from issue one media release way back when "halal practices" in the Middle East were exposed (by Animals Australia)? There was also a totally irrelevant submission to the Senate Committee back in 2003 which really did nothing much more than promote what is effectively PALE's slaughterhouse "arm".

It should be noted that the material on RSPCA websites around the country is in fact Animals Australia's material, so the RSPCA'a relationship with AA seems to be more effective than its relationship with PALE, if indeed that still exists. We don't see any contributions from RSPCA Queensland here supporting PALE's activities or claims, do we (but we all know how busy they are with cats and dogs)? Perhaps they could be persuaded to make a statement to us all that they do indeed work "in conjunction with" PALE. It would take about five minutes of the CEO's valuable time. Perhaps AFIC could be persuaded to do the same, just to reassure us all that all PALE's claims are in fact for real.

In the meantime, while we wait for that, I'll maintain my faith in groups like AA, AL, CIWF and the like.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 7:59:43 PM
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*Your notion of "nature" is that animals live only as long as you (humans generally) allow them to, and in that time, and beyond it, they are to be exploited to the maximum. Nothing especially natural about that, I'm afraid.*

No Nicky, my notion is that herbivores evolved as they did, to produce large amounts of offspring
which can run around in a jiffy, because in nature they regularly get eaten by predators. Sleeping
with bunch of lions watching your every move, is not stress free living. The weak, the slow,
the young, the old, are regularly eaten. That’s nature for you, not a Mary Poppins film.

Free range farm livestock generally don’t have all that stress. If wild dogs etc move
in, they are usually shot. So my livestock can sleep in relative peace, they are fed
through hard times and drought, they get treated for worms, any suffering or too old
are put down.

But yes, we thin down the numbers by selling them for food. Eating herbivores is
as natural as nature itself. Sustainable population has to be dealt with, be it humans,
sheep, or kangaroos. Your AA solution of putting them all on the pill is highly
unnatural, IMHO. Many of my sheep do in fact spend their whole lives here. I try
and sell them before their teeth get too loose, or they will land up suffering in old
age. Some, like old George, stayed till they dropped.

I sell them to whatever market will take them at a reasonable price. If a livestock
buyer offers me a crappy price, as he knows that I have little option but to sell them
to him, I make doubly sure that they go elsewhere.

*which includes taking social animals on outings on the odd occasion,*

You forget the point. You clearly make up the rules as you go along, then draw your little moral
line in the sand, a bit like the Catholic Church really lol.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 8:54:40 PM
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*Yabby has an obsession with hormones, and his aunties, from an earlier post.*

Now now Nicky, don't act stupid, or I will have another reason
to call you stupid. I made it clear about the lambs aunties,
a couple of times now.

No obsession about hormones either. Clearly human behaviour is
not your speciality, certainly not from a neuro-science perspective.
The mind is what the brain does after all. So my interest is
purely one of human understanding, based on science. Perhaps
a bit above your head? I thought so lol.

Don't forget that the tabula razza theory was proven wrong, many
years ago now. Both genes and environment affect human behaviour
and your genetic makeup influences your endocrine system, which
affects your behaviour, thoughts etc. But as its above your
head, I won't bother explaining too much, life is far simpler
for the uneducated such as yourself :)
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 9:03:57 PM
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Yabbs said
Now now Nicky, don't act stupid,

Pale comments
Now Yabbs what makes you think it’s an act.

Nicky

I don’t have to show you anything other than what I know you have already seen.
Our RSPCA QLD CEO doesn’t either. Nor AFIC.

AFIC have their own problems and we are all working very hard to continue with our very worth while work for the Animals.

As I said the others had YEARS to accept invitations from us to join us at meetings with Muslim Leaders not only from Australia but off shore too- they declined.
Thats is a matter of record.

All the evidence you need of our work is here=
I suggest you just look at the pictures as anything else seems too difficult for you to understand.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Your unreal. I have seen you both turn your back on a real free range farmer breeding pigs.
Also a free Range Poultry farmer.
Both have stopped posting and that’s 'a real pity.'

You could have and should have helped with that survey. But no. Then you go on about helping animals!
Well there’s one farmer who has quietly got on with the job with zero help from these so called Animal Groups!

Then you did ditto re the petition

You also have done ditto towards reopening plants.



Apparently our efforts aren’t too bad either Nicky which is why I assume the Handle with Care Coalition tried to sneak in through the back door ignoring our many invitations to walk in the front door.

With again zero background into this complicated area the possibility of doing more harm than good "was very real"

We will always put the Animals first so we are protective of our work to faze out live by reopening plants and our animal welfare work with Muslim leaders.

I suggest you put your efforts more into a program to help animals then bitching at our organization.

Which reminds me we were requested by not to even bother to return post to you.
imop A wise instruction, which i will now follow
I did try.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 10:52:20 PM
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"Then you did ditto re the petition" Pale

Why resort to lies Pale?
Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 10:58:56 PM
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Hi again all

Poor Yabby, it is so sad that you have to resort to patronizing claptrap when you're at a disadvantage. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but business, behavioural and social psychology and sociology have in fact been amongst of my specialities. But the work I have done in the areas was not limited to the hormonal elements.

We do all in fact know that some animals eat others (not being able to avoid the so-called "nature documentaries" the likes of David Attenborough seem to like to force down our throats), but the human species is the worst predator that this planet will ever have to recover from. Also, humans regard themselves as of "higher order intelligence" which gives them the capacity to know right from wrong, and to recognize and understand cruelty when they see it.

Animals are not wantonly cruel to one another, contrary to humans, who are cruel to most animals. Animals also do not seek to profit from the cruelty they inflict when they inflict it as humans do. Humans do not care what happens to the animal, no matter how awful, as long as there are a few bucks to be made. That is the distinction.

And it has nothing to do with gender or hormones and everything to do with morality.

I'd better save the last post for the evening for when PALE threatens me with legal action.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 11:07:13 PM
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Hi all

Last one for the evening, of course. PALE, you really need to put up or shut up. Once again you fail to provide any evidence of any achievements whatsoever beyond a slaughterhouse website which is old and may or may not in fact exist in the operational sense, there is no indication given either way. Hardly evidence of achievement in animal welfare in anyone's language.

If you have these "relationships" with the RSPCA and AFIC it can't be that hard to get them to come out and say so, or is it as I suspect, you have driven them off too with your outrageous, delusional behaviour?

Attempts to be patronizing fail when you lack the communication skills to do it effectively. Why SHOULD anyone meet with you just because you say so? It's not as if you ask nicely, by anyone's definition.

Clearly the other groups must share my view that your strategy has gone nowhere under your "management" so have decided to step in and do something a bit more strategic than simply insulting and offending everyone who disagrees with them. If I recall correctly, the free-range pig farmer received his/her share of insults from PALE (not to mention the "help me set up slaughterhouses" plea that assails and seems to drive away every new contributor) and no doubt had enough of you and your unsubstantiated claims, and I've never had anything to do with a free-range poultry farmer that I can recall; they obviously did not identify as such.

I also explained in detail why your petition wouldn't work and why I wouldn't meet with your Muslim friends, stating that your methods (thankfully!) are not my methods. That said, I will gladly support and contribute to any efforts by Handle with Care and Animals Australia, who have the professional expertise so sadly lacking in PALE.

Dickie, you may have noticed that PALE also tries to resort to insults, hot air and a good deal of baseless self-aggrandizement when put at a disadvantage, but in comparison, Yabby and Rojo are a bit better at it.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 11:49:01 PM
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To whom it may concern

We are dedicated to improving the life conditions of all animals including farm animals.
While we support all animal welfare groups we will not be bullied black listed underminded by any.
Regarding our MOU with AFIC it is as any a binding document.
AFIC are now in caretaker mode until a new election.

I was personally dissapointed by Ikabels behavouir and said so even hanging up the phone in his ear and demading we were taken off the AFIC web site.
Many people have shared concerns with us over several months.
On top of that we had these clowns wanting to exclude our organisation knowing we held a MOU and stomp in not having a clue as to what was going on and create what would be a disaster!

We have a close working realshonsip that has stood the test of time throughout what will be our third election is a few short years.

We will contiune to work with RSPCA QLD and AFIC regarding animal welfare.

We decided to lodge a formal complaint to AFIC regarding the behavouir of some people involved in Animal Welfare outside our organisation.

Within twenty four hours Ikebal was no longer the President of AFIC.

We also intend to lodge a formal complaint in regards to 'others' behavoiur.

Everybody is welcome to work on the many projects to help the Animals. We would encourage those who are genioun in their concerns for animals to contact us through the net.

please remember it is the animals that require everbodyy to work united together.
Something that apparetnly has been differcult for some in the past.
pale intends to contiune their efforts to improve standars in animal welfare and faze out live exports.
We will contiune to work with RSPCA QLD and AFIC regarding animal welfare.

Get used to it.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 22 May 2008 4:00:47 PM
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Deary me Nicky, so because I discuss neuroscience, about which you seem to know
nothing, it is patronising? I remind you that psychology has been navel gazing for
years, to understand human behaviour, most of it sheer speculation. Neuroscience
is providing answers, as at the end of the day, what you do depends on the functions
of your brain. Endocrinology is a part of that. Ignore it at your peril, as you clearly
do, when you try to ridicule it, due to your lack of education about the subject.

*We do all in fact know that some animals eat others (not being able to avoid the so-called "nature
documentaries" the likes of David Attenborough seem to like to force down our throats),*

Why would you want to avoid them, when they assist in explaining nature, and how
things really are? Reality does not go away, when you close your eyes and wish
it would. That is more a sign of emotions dominating reason, which is a human
weakness, I grant you.

*which gives them the capacity to know right from
wrong, and to recognize and understand cruelty when they see it.*

Morality Nicky, is little more then your subjective opinion. There is no evidence
of objective morality. You see a sheep’s leg dangling from a truck and scream
“cruelty”. I see the same sheep and am simply aware of its discomfort, I don’t classify
it as “cruelty”.

*Animals also do not seek to profit from the cruelty they inflict*

Animals seek to make a living and multiply, as humans do. We are just another species in the big scheme of things.

*Humans do not care what happens to the animal, no matter how awful, as long as there are a few bucks
to be made. That is the distinction.*

Not so, you are stereotyping and not all humans are the same. The thing is, many things have to be weighed up and considered, not just one narrow perspective. For
Most species its easy, they just want dinner. For humans the arguments are more
complex, such as the moral arguments.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 22 May 2008 4:08:14 PM
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Hi all

Yabby, you are so simplistic (simple?). I did't say I disregarded or ignored neuroscience or endocrinology, I said that my work was not thus limited. And sure I have a "line in the sand". If it's cruel (and espcially when you KNOW that), don't do it. Not a difficult or subjective concept. You think it's fine for sheep to be transported in appalling conditions for God knows how long and see it as "discomfort". I see it as the fact that the transporter has prpbably overloaded (and I've filmed plenty of them and they have been charged) to get a few more bucks for the trip. Just one example.

PALE, still we see no evidence. "We will continue to work for the animals", Doing what, precisely? Do you, for instance, do anything like what Animals Angels does (see their website)? Or Animals Australia, in the Middle East and elsewhere? Inspect slaughterhouses, feedlots and saleyards and report on cruelty, or file reports on some of the shocking transports?

Your organization has been there since 2000, and any drop in live export activity cannot be reasonably attributed to the efforts of PALE (I note on your website you lay claim to the WA venture in which you had no known involvement though).

As for AFIC - you "hung up in his ear". That just says it all, doesn't it? Have you done likewise with the RSPCA?

A quick look at AFIC's website indicates that it is not in fact they who are the certifying authority for halal meat, a government agency is. AFIC currently has no office bearers (interesting in itself), and not a word about cruelty to animals in sight.

The RSPCA appears to have decided to do its own thing without PALE, so where does that leave you? Writing more bitter letters of complaint and misery that everyone concerned will ignore. And attacking anyone and everyone who posts on these threads for no better reason than they choose not to work with you.

Come to think of it, why am I bothering?

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 22 May 2008 8:11:12 PM
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*Yabby, you are so simplistic*

Nicky, I remind you that knowledge is about knowing a lot of information,
wisdom is about being able to express it in simple terms!

*I did't say I disregarded or ignored neuroscience or
endocrinology,*

You certainly implied it, by trying to ridicule my passing comments about
hormones. Little did you know, that neuroscience is one of my hobbies.
If you want to know how a car works, pull the engine to bits. It’s a bit the
same with the brain.

*You think it's fine for sheep to be transported in appalling conditions for God knows how long and
see it as "discomfort".*

What appalling conditions? Sheep are outdoors creatures, unlike you. If things
aren’t air conditioned at 22degC, unlike you, they are used to it, its part of their
lives. Out in a paddock, it can be 45deg, it can be 0deg, it can be pouring with
rain. That is the world of a sheep, from its perspective that is all normal. Sheep
commonly spend a couple of days in pens, waiting to finally be shorn. That is
common all over Australia. Sure its best if transport is less then that, but because
some go on a truck for a day or two, does not mean it is cruel.

Your definition of cruelty is where your subjective opinion comes into it. But
then as we know, you relate your own feelings to one of a sheep. You are different
species, acclimatised to live in different conditions.

*I see it as the fact that the transporter has prpbably overloaded*

How can you make that comment about a whole industry, when your experience
involves one saleyard? Especially on a long journey of a day or two, sheep would
arrive dead and be worthless, if they were overloaded. What would be the point of
that
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 22 May 2008 8:56:38 PM
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Without posting directly to this clearly IMOP derannged woman RSPCA have done no such thing.
As for Animal Angels they are a part of Christa the German lady who provided so much information and gave up her church Leadership to help Animals.
What a fantastic effort she has made over the years.

We also fully support many others including Bridgett and PACAT.

There are dozens of organisations not only in Australia but world wide that do an amazing job.

We dont know what is the real cause of genes but falling in line with Yabbys theory some people care about animals and others dont.

If we had the answer to that we would market the good genes and toss the others overboard off the ships.

Perhaps one day people will be made to order like punching in a number and picking the type of kid you want to own.

Ijust sure hope they outlaw the bad genes by making animal cruelty such as live exports a illegal gene to be sold.

Who knows maybe it will even be possible for those already born to go and get a recharge of nice genes in place of nasty ones.

Genes- Yup Yabby, your certainly on the right track with that one.
I think genes are responsible for cruelty or kindness.

Umm, not sure where that leaves some of you guys but have a nice evening if your not a live animal exporter:)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 22 May 2008 8:59:29 PM
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Hi again all

PALE, the kindest thing you could do for yourself and all of us is invest in a good dictionary and some written communication classes. Look up "deranged", "disgust", "disappointed" and "relationship" (those being the most recent four that scream for attention. I won't even start on the grammar, punctuation, "ummms" and "yups").

Then you should seek some help for your delusions.

And STILL no evidence, just more figurative screeching at anyone and everyone. You do NOT support any other animal advocacy group, you have made that more than clear. In every post you do your (limited) utmost to undermine them. Did Animals Angels not also refuse to work with you, along with everyone else?

STILL no evidence based material about what PALE has achieved in its almost 8 years of operation, beyond an old website for a slaughterhouse, with terrible music and a the life story of an obscure farmer. As I said, you need to put up or shut up.

Yabby, wisdom is nothing of the sort, and you know it. Nor did I discuss the conditions of sheep in paddocks or condemn all transporters on the basis of one saleyard - you know that too. I condemned the multiple transporters whom I have filed charges with sheep on top of one another on the top tiers of 4-decker transports and others with sheep almost hanging out of the sides. They were not only entering or leaving saleyards either.

Your interest in neuroscience, in terms of real knowledge, is basically nothing more substantial than at a level which you believe entitles you to make gender-baserd judgments when you are at a disadvantage. And they get pretty boring eventually as well when they are repeated often enough (here and on other threads).

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 22 May 2008 9:20:36 PM
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*Yabby, wisdom is nothing of the sort, and you know it.*

Nicky, clearly you are not wise, or you would recognise the truism of that
quote!

*I condemned
the multiple transporters whom I have filed charges with sheep on top of one another*

Ok, so you are on about a few transporters, not the sheep transport industry in general. You don’t make that clear, for you go on and on and on and on about
transporting sheep in general. And you think that I repeat myself? Hehe.

*Your interest in neuroscience, in terms of real knowledge, is basically nothing more substantial*

You don’t have the foggiest as to what I know about neuroscience, as we have never
debated the subject. I simply raised one small point. Rather then concede that I might
be correct, you tried to ridicule it, to try and win the argument. Sorry, it ain’t that
simple darling :)

.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 22 May 2008 10:11:15 PM
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Hi again all

Yabby, you are in a sweet frame of mind this evening. I'll say one thing for you; you are wiser than I am insofar as you do not involve yourself with PALE's confused monologues.

Neuroscience is a highly complex and multi-faceted field of which endocrinology is just one element, but I'm sure you'll tell me you know that. But perhaps you will agree that we are also products of our genetics, our environments and other factors such as our education and the demographic to which we belong. And anthropomorphism is the term you're looking for, I think.

No, I haven't condemned the transport industry as a whole, but I do condemn the ones I have filmed, and against whom the police saw fit to either issue severe cautions or lay charges based on my photographic evidence and prosecution briefs. The same goes for some saleyards (yes, I am familiar with more than one). The one to which you seem to be referring and with which I am most familiar has just been charged for leaving over 40 sheep in a pen without a scrap of food for nine days, claiming it "wasn't their problem". It engenders some cynicism in me, I'm afraid. It is at least the third time this company has been charged and/or convicted.

I have also photographed sheep which have fallen from overloaded trucks, in the company of a friend who has a sheep farm and knows a bit about that sort of stuff. One died as we tried to get veterinary help (or even the police to shoot it) in the middle of nowhere. We had just passed the truck it fell from heading in the opposite direction on a main highway.

Nite (sic - for PALE's benefit) for now,
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 22 May 2008 11:56:18 PM
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If we had to sit and type each post by hand on olo we couldnt use the forum at all.
If the soft wear gets it wrong we had no time to check it.
Either read it or dont but stop your nasty bitching.

Some people are giving a even more clear picture as how things are handled given personality problems which is the most common cause for nothing happening to make changes.

The answer to the live trade as I have told you before is simply big players to dump big investments into plants over here.

Rudd seems to be tripping over himself however to support those with vetted interests like AWB Elders . There are many others.

As he banks on China? He really hasnt got a clue.

Kevin Rudd mislead the public regarding live exports and he will contiune to mis lead the public about many things.

IMOP They gave him once chance only. I dont think he will be re elected and we know Live Exports will be very much up as a political number 1 to 4 next time round.

Lyn White investigations made the Government look like fools.


The Rudd Government wont last and cruelty to animals will very much be a number 1 to 2 political topic.
Good Riddens to bad rubbish might make a good logo.
We look forward to seeing the back of Rudd asap.

Mind you some though he was a good choice?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 23 May 2008 7:25:04 AM
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*Neuroscience is a highly complex and multi-faceted field of which endocrinology is just one element*

Yup, but this website will make it easy for you :)

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/neurok.html

*But perhaps you will agree that we are also products of
our genetics, our environments and other factors*

Well those other factors are considered part of the environment
which you mention. So its down to nature/nurture, what % of each is
highly debated. Twin studies tend to reveal a bit more on that one.

*And anthropomorphism is the term you're looking for, I think.*

Science tends to use that term, but I prefer to use terms that many
people can relate to more easily, to keep it simple.

Also because I think that the principles go beyond that. I have to keep
on reminding people (like my mother lol ), that I see the world through
my eyes, not their eyes, so don’t really want to live their way, preferring
my way. In other words, what they think is good or bad, might not apply
to me or how I see the world. So its not just about a difference between
species, which is what anthropomorphism is all about.

*No, I haven't condemned the transport industry as a whole*

Ok, we now have it on record. I will remind you of that, when you forget
it in the future.

Another interesting URL for you:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080229171609.htm
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 23 May 2008 11:39:05 AM
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PALE&IF: << If we had to sit and type each post by hand on olo we couldnt use the forum at all. >>

While that would indeed be a loss to us all, I wasn't aware that PALE&IF had a physical disability in addition to the more obvious ones. Are they using voice recognition software?

<< If the soft wear gets it wrong we had no time to check it. >>

You mean, you couldn't be bothered? Little wonder nobody wants to work with you.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 23 May 2008 11:47:02 AM
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Gosh this post has gone way past its useby date.

When I see comments concerning “soft wear“, I presume it refers to some form of thick knickers which cushion the nether regions from sitting on hard chairs for long stints, laboriously typing in the OLO posting page.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 23 May 2008 2:03:46 PM
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No Col Simply 'some peoples' heads.
Pity you people didnt put a little more effort into thinking of your fellow creatures than being arse holes but according to Yabbs its genteic.
So guess we are lucky really.

Yup I use voice instead of typing. Sometimes it works sometimes it plays up
That allows us to do our main work. When you all try as hard as our office full of volunteers come back and see me.
Mean time Rudds created another job for the boys club by appointing a court worker to look after the bush and agriculture.
in QLD.
That ought to help our farmers heaps!
I dont think.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 23 May 2008 2:15:04 PM
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Hi all

CJ Morgan and ColRouge, I couldn't agree with you more. If I remember correctly, PALE said not that long ago that its Voice Recognition Softwear (sic) was new, so what's the story with all the rest of the posts? There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference to me. My experience with VRS is that in general it's reasonably reliable but you do have to check it. Anything less is either laziness or illiteracy. It is no excuse for the appalling communication errors we see here. PALE, for one, I think you mean "vested" interests, not "vetted", do you not? And "misled for "mislead" (VRS would certainly have identified THAT one).

The point we are trying to make is that poor communication skills do not engender any confidence in strategic, networking or business ability.

Nor, if I may say so, does "hanging up in his ear", as you said you did to your friend the AFIC leader. May we suggest that a bit of refinement in terminology might be appropriate too. You continue to claim that you "do not have time" and you work "20 hours a day" (I think was claimed on one thread), but what do you actually do? We are waiting in endless suspense about that. Just a few shreds of evidence would help.

Your website clearly has not been updated in years, you do not apparently do anything active in animal cruelty matters, you have seemingly no-one left in the animal advocacy networks who will speak to you, so please tell us - what does PALE really do, or stand for (other than slaughterhouses)?

Yabby, it is kind of you to offer to remind my failing memory in case I forget that I've said that I do not condemn the entire transport sector (I rarely have any problems with trucks carrying containers or refrigerated cargo, for instance). I'll check out your links a bit later - thanks.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 23 May 2008 8:13:47 PM
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Hi again all

Yabby, thanks for those links. The second was infinitely better than the first, but still did not provide any particularly scientific information which is what you claim you base your assertions on.

Obviously the male and female genders of any species are different. It was interesting to note that the male brain degenerates quicker than the female in humans (that could explain quite a lot), and the (abbreviated) papers on Alzheimers and Schizophrenia were interesting. There was not really any foundation to be found there for some of the gender-based innuendo you sometimes subject us to with regard to emotional intelligence. Think about it - there are women out there that you'd hate to meet on a dark night in the bush and men who are total wimps. You simply can't generalize to the extent that you do with any credibility.

Equally, some men are more affected by animal cruelty than some women; not all women give a damn, but, as a return sweeping generalization, men seem to be better at it overall.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 23 May 2008 11:20:49 PM
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PALE&IF: << Yup I use voice instead of typing. Sometimes it works sometimes it plays up >>

Oh OK - your "soft wear" can recognise "arse holes", but it doesn't handle "deranged", "disgust", "disappointed" and "relationship" (nor apparently "software"). Riiight.

I detect a porkie here, which I certainly hope is comprised of free-range pigs.

Ooo look! There go some flying past my window.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 23 May 2008 11:34:57 PM
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Hi all

CJ Morgan, it is interesting to note that neither of our posts in regard to PALE's communications has merited a response, no matter how coherent/incoherent, or about what form PALE'a actual activities take. "Porkies" indeed.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 24 May 2008 3:09:18 PM
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Nicky, the reason to quote the first website, was to show that even you can learn
about neuroscience. Even if you think that it is highly complex as you claimed,
\that complexity can be broken down into steps of simplicity. There are in fact
a huge amount of links from that website, in order for you to educate yourself
about the topic.

The point of the second website was to show that indeed science is studying the
differences between male and female brains and that your original scream of
“sexism”, in fact had no merit.

Of course there are some generalisations and always exceptions, we know that.
Its like saying that on average, men are taller then women, but there will always
be some very tall women and very short men.

The point is, on some things males in general (apart from exceptions of course)
behave in different ways to women and questioning which of those differences is
genetic and which are caused by environment, are valid scientific questions.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 24 May 2008 4:03:27 PM
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Hi all

Yabby, if you recall, I did say that human behaviour can be fetermmined to different extents by genetics, environment (and other factors) so you have no argument from me there. It's just your implications of intellectual superiority/inferiority based on gender that I object to.

PALE, to return to the original subject matter of this thread, have you in fact prepared a submission in relation to these proposed Standards/Guidelines? Do tell. Did you use your VRS? Why not post some of it here as a "guide" for those who would like to make a contribution. But only if it contains some useful, properly referenced material and not emotional outbursts please.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 24 May 2008 6:56:33 PM
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Hi all

I seem to have silenced everyone on this thread, even PALE. Perhaps it was the question about whether they had lodged a submission in relation to these Standards/Guidelines, something I thought particularly relevant since it was PALE which started this thread.

Come on PALE, the submission date of closure is not until Tuesday, you still have time to help us all out. Or perhaps you haven't had time.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 25 May 2008 7:19:31 PM
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We were requested not to post until others looked at the comments.

Your not interested in what we lodged now or before.

If somebody wants to ask who is serious we are happy to repond.

I think its clear to everybody your only interest is to troll pale as you have done for over a year.

We started this thread to encourage members of the public to lodge something.

Being in conjuction with RSPCA QLD you would already know that it would be done through there.

Although and heres something for you all if your quick enough to pick up on it- The last time Ikabel and I worked into the small hours of the morning to lodge something- I was informed that the National branch simply lodge something on behalf of everybody.

So why dont you ask your new buddy what he lodged when he was President or what he oversaw.

He has NO IDEA of the trouble he has created!

Regarless all codes are only recomended which is 'why' we decided not to bother about being a stake holder etc.

If anybody else would like to see the old subs put together Please ask
Anybody other than Nicky that is
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 25 May 2008 10:23:01 PM
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Hi all

I think most of those interested enough would have looked at the 2003 submissions, as irrelevant to the subject matter as they were. Who is the "new buddy" you have attributed to me? You need to be more specific when you accuse this person, whoever he is, of causing damage. Do you mean damage to your slaughterhouse project "on the "never never"? The project that was going to end live exports? Eight years ago?

I suggested you put up or shut up - and you've shut up. You started this thread giving a clear indication that ANY interested parties should contribute, and claiming credentials in animal welfare. ALL Codes of Practice/standards/guidelines are recommended only. This was an opportunity (if you had been able to put together a coherent submission) for you to have had influence, yet you didn't or couldn't do it. Shame on you.

Says it all, doesn't it?

I assume that you mean by "trolling" following PALE's posts. While to date I have found the posts of others far more intelligent, coherent and interesting, tonight I found some old ones of PALE. The free-range pig farmer you accused me of alientating had enough of your threats on the "Animal Welfare" thread started by "Scout", as did the "Free-Ranger". And you accuse the other animal advocacy groups of being "extreme". You drive people away from the cause in droves. As for your "support" of other groups, here is a (largely unintelligible) partial quote from that (Animal Welfare) thread:

"I am Tied of PETA too.!I agree its for their own little agendas.

I am tied of Animal Liberation . I am tied of Animals Australia.
I am tied even of PACAT ....

"Like You I know People Who are and Have worked Behind The Scences.
Do you think its fair that Animals Australia self appointed themselves as the so called Federation Umbrella of Animal Welfare in Australia? ha?"

I am fighting Against Peta Against The Extemem groups for the farmers and Animals" (sic throughout).

What a FRAUD you are!

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 26 May 2008 12:16:13 AM
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Nicky
I dont think there is much chance you will listen to me but trust me your really not helping the animals with your constant attack on pale.
I told you before there is nothing wrong with people- bar their intention.
Now I am sorry but your intention seems to be beyong everything else to attack pale.
We are just as entiled to work towards fazing out of live animal exports as everybody else.

Now you dont have to like our method and you dont have to like pale either.
If you had your way its clear pale would exsist no more.
Ok lets take a look at that speaking of intentions.

Regarless of what different people are doing to improve animal welfare isnt it better to have people working for the animals than nothing.

We dont get any funding and what we do comes from our hearts out of our love of Animals.

We pay a lot of money OURSELVES to help animals.

We know we have to answer or at least one of them and if we needed a 'written doc' I think its clear by the actions of some they agree.

The extreme groups have done good but also a bit of damage. We are main stream not veggies with many veggie members.

Thats because they can see its best to improve what we can for now and not protest about people eating meat.

That is their choice and we would encourage you to put your efforts into something far more helpful for the animals.
In your hast be defame us you missed the biggest hint I dropped you into subs for codes of practise.
Why not go back and re read it and pick up from there and run with that.
It would be the very best thing you could do if your really mean you wish to help animals.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 27 May 2008 3:25:35 PM
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PALE, as I have told you before, everyone I know who is working in animal welfare does so in their "spare" time outside of work and/or study (or other commitments), without payment, and all covering their (and often others') costs of doing so. I am doing all of those and have done for years. We all do it because we love animals. So please stop behaving like PALE has any exclusivity or monopoly in this regard (particularly in view of some of your earlier comment).

You are extraordinarily presumptuous to think that anyone would require "hints" from PALE in developing submissions.

I do not, and did not require any "hints" from you regarding submissions, I was able to develop two lengthy, high quality submissions of my own, as it happens, supported with my own photographic evidence, and scientific, legal and practical references. All in my (very limited) "spare" time and at my own expense too. And I actually sent two submissions. DID PALE submit one?

As for "defaming" PALE, you really should be careful about your use of that word. It's rather sad (and monotonous) that it is used every time someone criticizes you. In most jurisdictions, defamation has to be towards a "living person", for one thing. And usually any such statements must able to be proven to be be false and baseless.

"Fair comment" is just one defence against "slander" and "libel" and is something different entirely (Butterworths Concise Legal Dictionary). I believe that there is a matter of "public interest" here as well.

The "veggie groups", as you so condescendingly describe them, all promote on their website capaigns against intensive farming (in favour of free range, www.savebabe.com and www.freebetty.com to name just two) and a frozen meat trade (over live animal exports). They have been doing so for years, but it appears very much like you choose to ignore that so that you can promote your own slaughterhouse interests. And that is not "defamation". I really have better things to do with my time than delve too deeply into that sort of trivia.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 27 May 2008 7:36:25 PM
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And one more thing. We STILL wait for some evidence of what PALE actually does in any definitive sense for animal welfare. All I can see is that PALE drives any potential animal advocates away in droves.

As for "trust me". you've got to be kidding.

Nicky

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 27 May 2008 11:22:31 PM
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They have been doing so for years, ..

Yes Nicky They have been doing that for years= Which is the whole point.
They are also free to continue doing that for many more years. Nobody is stopping them.

We decided to tackle the problem head on and promote co joint ventures with Muslim buyers and farmers.

So in effect your saying our approach is something that is hated.

That is despite saying on sites faze out live and replace with chilled.

Interesting that its a different story when people actually really try to put that into practise.
Thank You for pointing that out.

btw We dont do this in our spare time we work full time and we pay for it ourselves.



why do I feel somewhere in the middle of all this is a political joke.
Hows this for a logo in future for you.

Ban Live exports and ban anybody trying to have animals slaughtered here.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 28 May 2008 12:07:42 AM
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PALE, you are indeed fortunate to be independently wealthy enough not to have to work for a living and to fund your interests, unlike most of us, who have to accommodate what we care passionately about in the hours that we have outside of earning a living. Or are we talking about people on some form of unemployment benefits or pension, for which the rest of us are paying? And is PALE an incorporated organization with the tax breaks that go with that?

The point is, all you do is PROMOTE slaughtering animals. You do not appear to have made any active contribution to solving animal cruelty here, or overseas. And you have been doing that for years with apparently not much to show for it. Animals Australia managed to kick-start a world-wide campaign against the long distance transport of animals, and its investigators (some also provided by PETA and CIWF) not only invested large sums, but also risked their personal safety to achieve that, with the evidence they gained. Now they have made a landmark achievement in Jordan as well.

Animals Australia also persevered with, and may still be persevering with, the "Al Kuwait" case. The contribution of PALE's "team of lawyers" (are they "all" related to you?) was what?

You really cannot possibly claim a fraction of the achievements of the other groups, and whether or not they are vegetarian or otherwise is totally irrelevant. It just annoys you because you choose to advertise that you are not.

Do you really think mulesing would have ever got to public attention without PETA? Where was PALE?

Look at the work that has obviously gone into www.liveexportshame.com. PALE's website does not even come close.

So PLEASE tell us - exactly what DO you do for animal welfare? Just a little bit of evidence would do.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 28 May 2008 6:44:48 PM
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If you want the subs email here=

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/

Pale seeks no tax breaks.
Its not one person either.

If you’re referring to me, held down two and three jobs throughout my life.
Once put my own property to ‘keep’ projects floating for Animal Welfare.

I still own an investigation company with almost ‘all’ those funds funding pale!
Speaking of our TWO year investigation!
http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

Our Lawyers work VERY long hours then give up what little free time they have for Animals. How dare you!


What we have put in place is an ‘alternative’ to the cruel trade.

It would be clear to everyone bar you we would not have formed a group if we did not deeply care for animals.





Nicky said
You really cannot possibly claim a fraction of the achievements …
Pale Replies
Oh for Goodness sake grow up. For once in your life put the animals before your own ego.

Nicky, Its you who have achieved nothing- other than drag Animal Welfare into the gutter with your bitching and complaining about farmers pale Muslims.

I would say pale has made a good contribution in a short time by introducing Muslim Leaders to work under mou`s for Animal Welfare in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

mule sing
Pale replies
Nicky I have told you a `million times`- - wrong Sheep Wrong country-

Nicky said
Look at the work that has obviously gone into www.liveexportshame.com. Pale’s website does not even come close.

Pale replies.
Nicky how old are you? A web site means nothing in the real world grow up!
We are too busy doing things that DO matter so complain to Mohamed who was doing it but he’s busy too!



Its 'way down' the list I am afraid.

However Yes! Dawn Low did a great job and passed it over to Suzanne Caz and AA isn’t that right Suzanne.

Nicky said

So PLEASE tell us - exactly what DO you do for animal welfare? Just a little bit of evidence would do.

Pale Replies
We could ask you the same question.?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:58:47 AM
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Farmoline today=
Insight into China's massive red meat market
MARK PHELPS IN BEIJING
28/05/2008 5:47:00 PM
Australia's red meat industry has launched its most significant push to date into the booming Chinese red meat market.

A delegation led by Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA) has met with more than 140 importers and retailers during the course of a 10-day visit.

The delegation represents more than a dozen prominent Australian meat processors and exporters.

It also includes Cattle Council of Australia representative Hamish Munro, a cattle producer from Cumnock.

MLA regional manager for South East Asia and China, Glen Thompson, said the market currently was 99.99pc supplied by domestic Chinese cattle.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:56:10 PM
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1. There is no apparent evidence of any submission in relation to the proposed Standards and Guidelines by PALE (or indeed by RSPCA Queensland) at the link provided.

2. The link to the "investigation" consists of one undated letter, than I have seen elsewhere as well; I suspect it is a letter PALE has picked up from someone else's website

3. It has nothing to do with my ego, it is a matter of fact that all the groups I mentioned have clear and unambiguous evidence of achievements that far exceed anything PALE seems to be able to lay claim to. It is about those groups - of which (sigh!) I am not a member, so my ego is irrelevant.

4. An informative website means pretty much everything in today's world of modern communications. Poor PALE!

5. If you are confusing me with Suzanne Cass in Tasmania, I am flattered. She has written some excellent material.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 29 May 2008 7:35:08 PM
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The letter is a lady who was stationed in ME and paid by the Australian Government but worked Er, in her spare time for us.
" Nice One':) How embarresing for the Government. That lady still attends this office and is one of our best helpers. Shes TOTALLY dedicated to animals and works in our office two days a fortnight.


We decided at the end of the day only one thing was going to change things and that was to work with the Muslim People instead of protesting about their cruelty.

That lead to the first MOU between Muslim People and Leaders and a animal welfare organisation in Australia.

Not only was that a first in Australia but world wide.
As a matter of interest Muslim Leaders have decided that live exports is cruel and unnessary.
Hense of course old Hugh as president of wspa trying to get in and shaft pale showing zero respect for a legal documents along with others.

Its just a pity that after the years of open hearted invatations to Dr Wirth and others they didnt bother.

If pales work is so invaulable then why have people been tripping over themselves get in the back door and shaft pale?

Still I suppose thats an unfair question to you not being in the loop of animal welfare leaders. You wouldnt know what I am refering to.
All they have done is disrupt progress for the animals causing major problems for others.


We are of course informed as to whom is making enquires. Mind you on one ocassion we decided to let it go a little further to obtain evidence.

RSPCA QLD dont put their subs on their site and we work in conjuction with RSPCA QLD as you well know.
I gave you the link so email Kerry Cutting and ask.

They are too long to post here and Nicky live exports wont be stopped by building a pretty web page . I WILL be stopped however by reopening plants.

Might I say Debbie and Suzzane have always spoiled their efforts.
Pity for the Animals.

sad
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 29 May 2008 10:08:02 PM
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Yabby
Well I would like to have posted a little more about some plants and
the industry in general.
However its clear as day Nicky will just contiune to carry on about those terrible animal killers,- pale reopening " slaughter houses"

So in a way you have made your point about the agendas of some.

We on the other hand think this is a political front with some.
Nobody could be that stupid for so long.

I really cant be bothered and this thread has well gone past its use by date.
It could have been interesting but its Such a bore.


Might see you on another thread another time
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 29 May 2008 10:30:55 PM
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PALE&IF: << Its just a pity that after the years of open hearted invatations to Dr Wirth and others they didnt bother. >>

Hell hath no fury like a PALE&IF scorned..

Have you thought about turning this thread into a TV soapie script? I'm thinking that something like

"The Mad and the Meatless"

might be able to find a mid-afternoon audience on some obscure pay TV channel.

Just a thought. Do carry on.

:)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 29 May 2008 10:58:55 PM
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PALE, you do miss the point. You say you have MoUs in place. But what do they do/have they done? Anyone can write legal documents, but they need to have some meaning and some action.

There being apparently none of either is probably the reason why the "others" have "tried to get in the back door". They have the same right as you do to write pieces of paper. And MoUs are not usually legally enforceable unless they take the form of a contract, in which there must be an "action" and a "consideration" (usually monetary).

I don't know who has "tried to get in the back door", but assume from your comments it is Hugh Wirth. If "Debbie" is from AAQ, as you seemed to be asserting on another thread some time ago, you can't really describe either her or Suzanne as "spoiling" anyone's efforts, from the work both of them have been doing for years (also unpaid and at their own expense, as far as I know). They have made tremendous contributions. It seems that their "crime" is disagreeing with/refusing to work with PALE, nothing more. I'm sure they are highly regarded by everyone else in the movement. You need to understand that, in real terms, PALE has done the least, being single-issue, and basically non-active (in terms of dealing with real and current cruelty issues). PALE has also consistently sought to undermine the achievements of everyone else in the movement. What exactly has PALE done for RSPCA Queensland, for example, except to bring it into some disrepute by its antics?

You do not say what date that letter was written, but it appears to be from the early-mid 1990s, and it can hardly be described as an "investigation", it merely describes (by hearsay), in a couple of paragraphs, one event.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 29 May 2008 11:40:12 PM
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here I go again breaking the instructions by our lawyers who are looking at you .

They have given a lot of time to animals themselves.

I am NOT going to post all our privy information on here- nor AFICs.
You people were invited to join us for years but declined.

Then Hugh thinks he can just ignore the invites we extended to him and aa.
They had 20 years to do what we have done but didnt.

It’s interesting that "you hide behind a false name ".

What I said was Debby and Suzanne had done some very good work but then spoil it.

It’s curious after all you have said you’re now defending Hugh.

Even more curious after all everybody has said you would settle for him leading the handle with care?

I am just wondering what type of political animals we are dealing with here.

We have already achieved a great amount working with RSPCA QLD and Muslim Leaders.

Lot more to be done. We could have achieved far more had Animals Australia worked with us instead of against us.

We are small by comparison and young.

As for our investigation Nicky we had a person working for an Australian diplomat being paid by the Australian Government in ME for "Two Years."
Not having the huge amounts of donations peta and AA get we decided to opt it for something a bit smarter.

Also the witness is "totally credible being employed by their own The Australian Government)"

We told AA we had this evidence but they didn’t want to know and of COURSE we haven’t put everything up on our web page regarding it.


As for the others trying to go through the back door- Just 'LOOK' at the results.

They have no idea of what they are doing or what they have done.

Best stick to rolling around protesting meat eaters naked.

Do you know how much help that is to animals.=

ZERO
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 1 June 2008 10:13:28 AM
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PALE. please tell your "lawyers" to "go knock themselves out". Vexatious litigants rarely win sympathy in any courts in the country, but I'm sure you would know that. For one thing, you have to have grounds and standing to bring an action, so I shan't be losing any sleep over that.

You can't post any information about achievements because there haven't been any. Having someone in the Middle East attached to the Australian government seems to have provided little, particularly in comparison with what Animals Australia has done. Not to mention the most obvious fact that he working to the Australian government's agenda. of course which makes him pretty worthless. If AA can put their investigation outcomes on their website why can't you (f they indeed exist?)

I have no idea what has been going on the background or what "damage" has been done by whatever intervention Hugh Wirth has started, nor did I ever say I was happy with him being the "spokesperson.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 1 June 2008 10:47:44 PM
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Suzzanne
pale clearly have led the way and Hugh and others now wants to jump in a take the credit for our hard work.

If thats all he wanted it wouldnt worry us so much be I dont trust Hugh as far as I can kick him.

As I said hes had twenty pluss years to do what we have done. So has peta and aa. AL or RSPCA National.

Also Suzanne the fact is the lawyers your going on about are not just lawyers but hard working members as well.

I think its fantasic a group got together and decided to do something to help animals. Nobody was protesting live exports before we started and thats a fact.' When your friend at AA was contacted years ago she said they didnt do live exports because it was too political and to call green peace.


Unlike aa and al and rspca and wspa staff these people are unpaid.

If pale only went door to know talking to the public about intensive farming and live exports I think that would be good.

However they do far more than that. Ask yourself why you hate people who work hard for animals full time unpaid.

The woman who did the two years in ME working for the Government also gives lectures on a regular basis at our invatation and has assisted at 'many meetings' with Muslim Reps from overseas.

However the TRUTH is we sure could have got a lot more done by now if AA had of been prepaired to help.

Speaking of lawyers I do believe one called Glenyse last week.
So we hope they are now happy to assist in the WA matter.

The Animals need everybody working united.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 2 June 2008 4:02:57 AM
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"The Animals need everybody working united."

Very true Pale. What they don't need are those who, like yourself, work both sides of the street. Defenceless sheep, cattle etc don't need those who, motivated by self-interest, fawn and crawl - servile self-seekers endeavouring to win favours by flattering those whose snouts are in the trough.

To further ingratiate yourself with live exporters, you now resort to whacking genuine animal welfare agencies.

Simply put, your motives are to share the same fruits of the poisoned tree as the rampant plague of inhumanity which trades in live exports.

I find you a great disappointment Pale and like all duplicitous double dealers, you appear not to flinch from an opportunity to scheme, however sordid or demeaning.

Please spare us any more of your fake morality.
Posted by dickie, Monday, 2 June 2008 2:29:48 PM
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Dickie
I understand you have been brain washed over the years and I have gone to great lenghts to take that into account.
However how dare make such judgement about our motives.
] I will tell you what our motives are. They are to get to the bottom of why nobody has been allowed to move in the area that makes the REAL difference.
You say Ban Live exports and I couldnt agree MORE.
To do that you must offer both the farmers and the buyers - pluss the lazy irresponsible corrupt Governments a REAL alternative.
]
There is only ONE WAY of doing that Dicky and its to deal direct with ME buyers and farmers to reopen plants in Australia.
You cant go on collecting donations from the public showing sad pictures to do what? Come on Dicky To Do what?
Do you want to faze out this barbaric trade?
If you do we are the LAST people you ought to be attacking.
Use your brains and think about it.
As for our motives! they are and always HAVE been to0 work at the answer to the problem NOT just highlight the problem as other have for twenty years pluss whil its trippled!
Have a nice day and THINK about the answer!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 2 June 2008 3:52:04 PM
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"You cant go on collecting donations from the public showing sad pictures to do what? Come on Dicky To Do what?"

Pale - stop the spin, please. Millions of viewers and readers around the world have witnessed those "sad pictures" where the sordid truth has been exposed in Australia's livestock trade. Australia has lost dozens of trading partners and the boycott is rapidly expanding. Many individuals around the globe now refuse to buy garments made from Australian wool.

Live exports have been banned in the past - a result of AA's exposure (and "sad pictures") of the heinous practices here and in the Middle East. AA and its supporters happen to be committed to something beyond themselves.

Many citizens are now sickened at the sight of the dead flesh in the decaying process, sitting in styrofoam packs in supermarkets where they are sold for human consumption. These citizens now have information on the cruelty inflicted on these animals leading to the slaughter.

Granted there are obstructive forces which prevent justice for the these hapless animals - forces like the influential sheep and cattle barons.

Several of these traders have made Australia's rich list for 2008. They are members of an industry which torment and torture their livestock to ensure their parasitic profits are robust. These people are granted easy access to our sycophantic and ignorant governments.

As for PETA, they have millions of donors which allows them an annual multi-million dollar budget to employ over 200 staff. Are you actually suggesting that millions of ethical and compassionate donors have been "brainwashed?" These people happen to know right from wrong.

Wesley Batista is the largest meat producer in the world and he is investing in abattoirs in Australia.

I'm surprised you haven't been liaising with him where you could at least get your foot in the door and a slice of the profits without incurring overheads.

Who knows, you could work your way up the chain of command to become King-pin of Operations where you would see more animals slaughtered than you had ever dreamed of.

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2208437.htm

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/Premium-Articles/Rich-Secrets/20080530-Rich-list-newbies-reveal-a-primary-trend.html
Posted by dickie, Monday, 2 June 2008 9:31:46 PM
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Dickie
We are all sickened and shamed by it and especially our Australian Governments lack of concern for Animals.
Its such a disgrace its almost unbelievable. There is no doubt that doing something- such as you have just posted IS helping highlight it.
We are NOT say AA and PETA have done nothing either.
All we are saying is we are sick of people like yourself and members of veggie groups rubbishing with a vicious attacks on us because we chose to attack it in a slightly different manner.
We are all working for the same end Dickie and this stupid anti pale attitude is somewhat annoying.
The reason we have live exports is because the Government along with certain National bodies drove it down that road in the first place.
Its amazing you protest Ban Live Exports and faze out to chilled while you all bend over backwards to also protest a group who are working to do just that. To actually get in there and MAKE it happen.
Absolutly Amazing!
Then you claim you guys are not the veggie gang( Nothing wrong with veggies either Dicky BUT that wont faze out live to chilled.
If you really understood the reason for this barbaric trade you would also understand why we are moving in that area.
I DO blame THAT on your leadership NOT you.
You either want them slaughtered HERE or for it to contiune. Make up your mind and btw not ONE cent of plants goes to us. ITS A "PROJECT "working with FARMERS and MUSLIMS Leaders. Read it again for goodness sake Dicky.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 2 June 2008 10:06:27 PM
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PALE
I really doubt if AA needs the help of any PALE 'lawyer" with the "Al Kuwait" case, AA has the support of an excellent team of lawyers. Also other organizations WERE active in campaigning against live exports before PALE was even thought of, I was a member of such an organization.

You say you have "led the way" but STILL we see no evidence what what you've actually DONE. Certain unenforceable documents have been put together, but what have they achieved? Have they resulted in ONE LESS ANIMAL BEING EXPORTED LIVE? AA has managed to halt the trade to Egypt at least once and the trade to Saudi Arabia was halted - all without any input from PALE.

Has PALE succeeded in addressing the excessively long distances animals are transported within Australia? The conditions of the transports? Other cruelty issues in saleyards , feedlots and slaughterhouses?

Dickie is absolutely right. The fact that you share PALE with a directorship of a slaughterhouse operation is duplicitous as well as being a conflict of interest, and clearly provides for money to change hands.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 12:13:41 AM
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I don’t know why AA have you two posting anti pale stuff all over this forum or even 'if'? they have.

Personally, I really don’t care but others do.

For someone who says they have no contact with AA you sure do go on about 'their' business.

So Nicky, Dickie tell you what we will do- right now this morning at around 8 or 9am.
Our lawyers will contact GO at AA and 'simple ask'.

Lawyers got together with RSPCA QLD because of their concern about animal welfare. That should please animal lovers.

We will also ask them why they are or’ IF ’ they are acknowledging yourself and Dickie.?

If its the case and you are posting this without AA consent then they have a right to know because its most certainly damaging AA not pale.


It’s pretty pathetic and it’s not helping animals.

I should ‘hope’ AA has done more Nicky after being around twenty years before us.’ I really would.’

You have NO plans NO projects -nothing.'

We are not blocking AA so what’s your problem.

We are doing our 'own thing' working with RSPCA QLD and Muslim leaders.

Why don’t you do something more than posting utter rubbish and rehashing stuff aa put out over and over and over .

When Lyn last went overseas we actually rang her and said.

Hello Lyn, Would you like the Muslim Leaders of Australia to do a media Release regarding live exports?

She said that would be absolutely fantastic = thanks!

So it was done within two hours.

We did that to support her and sent it off with the biggest bunch of flowers and thanks from the animals we could find.'

So Nicky I don’t know what your problem is because as far as I know Lyn’s quite happy.

As for lawyers working on WA case. That’s between the lawyers and God. Nobody has a Patton on helping animals.

AA will be invited to join as far as I have been advised by our lawyers. I leave all that completely up to them.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 7:43:52 AM
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PALE, you are indeed tragic.

One minute you say AA will not speak with you, then you say you "support" Lyn White with a media release (are we talking about that one and only media release of two years ago?). How on earth would you know if Lyn White was happy or not? And I am tired of repeating myself (YET again!) about not being a member of (and therefore not representing)any specific group, but as I said - tell your "lawyers" to go knock themselves out. And do the same with the crisis of identity of who you think I am or may be.

It is also not likely to be a matter of great concern to Hugh Wirth whether PALE "trusts" him or not, and any information Dickie and I have posted here is generally available from AA's website. There is no intrigue, much as you would like there to be.

Now that it has been pretty well established that PALE is more to do with animal slaughter than animal welfare, I agree with Dickie. Maybe you should make an approach to the South American slaughterhouse barons and become "queen of the heap" there, because your animal welfare credentials are seriously shaky.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 12:32:03 PM
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Nicky
Clearly you dont speak for AA and as a matter of fact they totally at a disadvantage by your indication which is basically dishonest they you are speaking as an authority of AA and their policy.

Again we say 'wake up' and deal with the REAL problem.

Which is that we need plants 'reopened to tackle live exports.'

After all that is what you CLAIM to be protesting about isnt it?

You 'claim' you wish to see live diverted to chilled?

I think is very clear to anybody who bothers to read these posts on OLO you clearly DONT support the reopening of plants to faze out live exports.?

Its clear you DONT support working with farmers and Muslim Leaders and RSPCA QLD and pale to divert live to chilled.?

So in fact your posts are based on dihonesty IMOP.

Your waisting my time and yours with your absolute rubbish.

Get a life outside your jealousy of what pale have managed to put together in a few short years.

If our agenda was so bad we wouldnt of had Hugh and the whole coilatation beating the 'back doors' of our contacts.

What makes YOU an expert on AA or pale. You clearly havent got a clue what 'either organisation' is actually doing.
btw Lyn was very happy we arranged the media release in support of her efforts and we were happy to provide it because we ALL did it for the one reason
THE ANIMALS!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 1:55:45 PM
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PALE, do get a grip. I have always said that I do not represent AA or any other organization, and that I do not support PALE.

You have not been able to post anything here that suggests that even ONE less animal has been exported live as a result of your "work with Muslim leaders and RSPCA Queensland" or even that one more "plant" has been re-opened to "faze" (sic) out live exports. AFIC has no current listing of office bearers, you said yourself that you had "hung up the phone" in the ear of its erstwhile leader, so where are your relationships? In your own head, I suggest.

Perhaps your Australian farmers didn't much care for the notion of flogging off the family farm to your your Muslim friends (after all, it was a bit patronizing, wasn't it?) you managed to alienate everyone in government who may have been useful and you managed to totally frighten off even the meat workers with your torrents of abuse when you didn't get your own way. Who knows why your plans apparently went nowhere?

It's to be hoped that the Coalition can handle this with substantially more professional expertise than you have been able to provide. You should be a little more gracious and leave it to those with the resources and the ability to do it properly.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 7:15:32 PM
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PALE, I found this on another recent thread. Can it indeed be true (speaking of dishonesty)?

"PALE – you receive funding from the Queensland government via the RSPCA and I do believe that Wendy herself is in receipt of welfare benefits. Or was.

Either way, there is clearly a load of hypocrisy when people are happy to insert their own snouts into the trough for personal advantage, but deny opportunities for a good start in live for our most dependent people – children".

BTW, is PALE an incorporated organization?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 7:43:55 PM
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Hello Nicky,
You seem to have a lot of time on your hands as always.
Your posts are malicious, vicious and untrue.
If you read the posts you will note that pale receives a little bit of funding from RSPCA Qld and that is it.
It is none of your ( ) business how and what people do to for a living or for survival. As you well know W owns an Investigation company.
It seems to me that you are up to no good and your trawling and bagging PALE does not help you in any way. It shows the Forum Readers what kind of person you really are and what decent caring people have to put up with to help the animals.
Shame on you to waste our precious time with rubbish.
Antje
Posted by Macropod Whisperer, Tuesday, 3 June 2008 10:54:28 PM
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