Hi all
Yabby, that is the thing about ethics; they are always a matter of debate, be they about meat, animals, abortion or anything else. And just as there are evil boyfriends, there are evil girlfriends as well, the one consistent thing about people is that they are different. Why else would we all be debating issues on this forum?

PALE, the only people who have issues with either my ankle or my wrist (note the "W") are PALE and its associates, most people manage to keep the debates reasonably to topic without personal insults. I don't know how much credit PALE can claim for the Malaysian initiatives either, it has been around for some years that I am aware of. PALE may have wanted it all centered in Australia, however, but typically, the Australian government, for reasons no doubt to do with too many Australian politicians being farmers who favour the live export trade, has "dragged the chain" with it and allowed the meat processing sector to fall over.

Yabby, perhaps you can provide some enlightenment on something else I'm currently having a look at - the use of electric/electronic prod devices, particularly in the transport and slaughter areas. Any information would be useful. For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky said

I don't know how much credit PALE can claim for the Malaysian initiatives either, it has been around for some years that I am aware of. PALE may have wanted it all centered in Australia, however, but typically, the Australian government, for reasons no doubt to do.
Pale replies.
Yes thats right Nicky Its been around for years! Ever since 'we' put these proposals forward.
As for The Government they would have looked at anything that involved the private sector doing it this way. They are happy for offshore to invest here.
The only reason they have not done anything here is because of the push and pull from overeas and of course the people with vetted interests in the live shipping trade.
The Government have expressed interest to hear more about the proposals especially anything involving working with Aboriginal Elders andpeople in the regional areas.
After saying that its possibly too late to go back now and change some things that were done behind our back. We will simply have to wait and see.

Its really a no brainer to continue to work with people who go behind your back. We have more than enough to sue but as I said to Yabby thats not going to help the animals so I am not really interested.
That doesnt mean that two of the lawyers also directors of HKM wont however. Thats entiley up to them but my call is to bring it back to the table.
Its wasnt the Malyasian`s that fell short of their agreement but Australian Muslims and as they say.

JAKIM is very able to accredit whole send chilled Carcuss from Australia over there. This is just a last moment pure greed snatch for the jobs that go along with abattoir work.
Not a smart move considering they are walking away from humane meats world wide advertsing.
Many unsmart moves are Australian driven not the other side .

"For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?"

Nicky, these things are battery operated, how much voltage to you imagine they can inflict? They are not tazers.

Have you ever touched an electric fence? Have you ever had a zapp of static electricity after walking on acrylic carpet of something similar? None are capable of leaving a mark on human skin let alone burning a carcass.

*I'm currently having a look at - the use of electric/electronic prod devices, particularly in the transport and slaughter areas. Any information would be useful. For example, do they not burn and damage meat/hides?*

Sheesh Nicky, what a sheltered life some of you paper shufflers lead.
Has nobody ever jabbed you on the bum with one of those things? :)

Its only a 10 microsecond low impedance pulse, with a couple of
torch batteries inside the unit.

IMHO they save alot of trauma. I had one in the shearing shed for
those penning up. If you have ever seen pressers penning up, you
might understand.

The real problem is that you are as green as a cucumber on all these
topics, yet are trying to pass comment about things which you haven't
the foggiest. Perhaps somebody like PF, could take in paying guests
and teach you the 101s of farm life. You'd get your hands dirty doing
real work for a change, plus accidentaly touching the odd electric
fence and being chased by the odd boar, might be very character building for you :)

At least you could then comment on a little more
informed basis, then you are doing now.

Farm bootcamp for the city veggie brigade!

.

Pf and Yabby - I know nothing about prod devices, that's why I am asking. It does not necessarily point to a particularly sheltered existence. The sort of information I've been looking for is state-by state guidelines (possibly contained on Codes of Practice?) The only ones I have found say that they are to be "dry cell operated" and their use "kept to a minimum". On the other hand, through work I have done in prisons, I am familiar with the use of Tazer guns, and I would hate to think there is any resemblance.

In one state it is "recommended" that they are not to be used for "training purposes" for "sporting events" (specifically rodeos).

If the charge is so weak, then how is it that they have any effect, through wool/hide? I have seen film footage of them being used on the faces of some sheep on a truck who had nowhere to move to, and here I have seen transporters use them on sheep who also had nowhere to move to. The animals quite visibly jumped. PF, do I understand from your answer that you use them, and if so, what for? Yabby, on what part of the animal do you use them?

The next question from that is about electro-immobilization, can anyone tell me anything at all about that? The best information I've been able to find so far is that is can be used, for example, on cattle during de-horning, castrating and spaying, and that it paralyzses the animal but does not render it unconscious.

Again any information would be useful. I have read through the Meat Processing Industry Training Package (470-odd pages of the damn thing) but could find no mention of these devices.

Cheers
Nicky

I will try and relate my answer to something that may be familiar to you. Acrylic carpets usually cause this problem for people wearing synthetic clothing, for me it happens just vacuuming my carpet (ahh, just another reason to avoid that machine), you touch something metal or go to open a door and zapp!

Now did it really hurt? Not if you if think about it, it was the shock or surprise that made you recoil.

Take electric fences for example. If you are prepared for it (and I rarely am) you can grab hold of the wire and feel the pulse of electricity going through you. No it isnt that pleasant but it is not painful. The clever pigs around here have even figured that out. Its when they accidentally come into contact with it and get that quick zap that frightens them and then they run off squealing.

Thats how the prods work. A quick zap that gets the animal moving in the opposite direction of where the shock came from. Overuse of the prod will result in the animal becoming accustom to the shock and be of little use because it is just not that painful.

No I do not have a need to use a prod but I have seen plenty of occassions when they have been put to good use and ultimately to the benefit of the animal.