mhaze,
I don't know why you're getting your panties all up in a bunch for.

I said "Don't you think that if the Russian foreign minister was openly lying, that people would've called it out?"
- And I still stand by that comment.
I told you I heard the information in 2014, not 2022.
I'm not sure which part of that isn't sinking in.

"But even after I'd proven that indeed Lavrov and all the others who'd talked about this were lying"

You didn't prove squat.
The language laws we looked at dated later were different to what was going in 2014. Ukraine had to change it's stance and rewrite the laws as it was promted to do so by the EU, as it also wanted membership there.

"Strangely when I mock your attitude of believing everything the Russians say and disbelieving everything the Ukrainians say, you agree that that's what you do."
- Yes and I said it's not without merit.
Ukraine lies about everything, follows the script the CIA writes for them like a good little lapdog, they have no choice the US funds the cost of running their government.
If you're going to bloody quote me, don't leave inconvenient parts out.
You want to know about lies go no further than the West, and Covid.

Whatismore, we won't know for years where the lies were and where the truth was.
- Many of the things being said were known to be false at the time, and many have been proven false since.
- It just depends on the quality of the information you're getting.

"But from the point of view of those neighbours, they are perfectly right to decide who they'd prefer to be dominated by - Russia or the western alliance."
Yeah mate, what about the US sponsored coups in Turkey, Georgia and Belarus, AFTER the coup in Ukraine.
Who decides what... the people?
WAKE UP.

[Continued - mhaze]
"When Putin rose to power, Russia was a democracy, albeit an imperfect one."
Go find out the truth.
Those years after the end of the cold war the Russian people STARVED, life expectancy for men had dropped to about 47 years of age, men were drinking themselves to death and many were committing suicide.
It's just the West who sells who sells those years as being all fine and dandy.

"You base everything on claims that what's allowed to the US is also allowed to Russia. But you utterly leave out the actual frontline states who bear the brunt of this 'fairness' doctrine."

Which ones Serbia, Kosovo, Libya, Iraq, Syria
Stop trying to sell me your biased crap.

"But they won't have that choice is they become yet another slave state of Russian imperialism."
- Should've allowed Ukraine to negotiate an end to the conflict last April then.
The US and collective west was writing cheques it's militaries and sanctions can't cash.
- Promises they can't keep.

For all the money they spend each year on military they don't even have enough ammunition to supply.
The US has gone begging to buy HAWK SAM systems back from Taiwan.
It's a freaking joke.

And you have Lindsay Graham and Mitch McConnell bragging this war and all the aid helps America because it goes straight to US jobs and the Military industrial complex, and no US soldiers are dying.

The US is screwed, it's now paying a trillion in interest a year.
- And is relying on China to buy it's bonds to fund it's debt obligations...

Foxy,
"The direct challenge that Russia's attempted invasion of Ukraine
poses for the rule-based international order means that what is
happening in Ukraine is not just someone else's problem. This is
a moment that needs to unite us all."

What a load of feelgood crap.
- Just what you'd expect from our government.

We're not united at all.
Some people are living in the car with their kids while some government ministers live in mansions and have a portfolio of properties.
The consistently low approval rating of western leaders is a symptom of nations divided.

'United' is just a fancy word the government uses to get get us all to go along with whatever they decide in their foreign meetings.
Australian's decide nothing.
- Nothing that actually matters anyway.
It's all been decided by others already.

Australia support international efforts to ensure Putin's
aggression fails and that Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial
integrity prevails. Australia is unwavering in its resolve
to condemn and oppose Russia's actions and to help Ukraine
achieve victory.

Ukraine has demonstrated strength, resilience, and courage in
defending against Russia's unjust invasion. Australia is proud
to be one of the largest non-NATO contributors in support of
Ukraine and will continue to support Ukraine to end the war
on its terms.

As Foreign Minister Penny Wong made clear:

"We pay tribute to the extraordinary courage and resolve
of the Ukrainian people and stand with them."

"Ukrainian families, children, and the elderly have borne
a terrible cost of the Russian invasion and Australia is
providing help to support them."

"Russia cannot be allowed to infringe upon another country's
sovereignty and territorial integrity."

In each Australian city and town there are pro-Ukrainian
demonstrations and fund raisings. People are united in this
cause.

There are "peace" celebrations in support for Ukraine throughout
Europe. My family has recently returned from a trip there.
The support for Ukraine is massive - both here and abroad.

Ukraine had 30,000 serviceman killed in action in the last 6 weeks.
Your support helps create more corpses.

With little regard for his own people and human life
in general - Putin is ready to throw as many bodies
onto the battlefield as needed.