May I also wish your moderate views, and tone of voice, much success on this Forum, kroizyjack.

There is unfortunately a great deal of religious fear and loathing evident here, and a quick introduction may not be out of order.

The most characteristic assaults, where the claimed purity of one religion is set against the putative vileness of another through the medium of carefully selected and interpreted ancient texts, have already merited comment from you.

More pernicious, however, is the ease with which your moderate views are turned against you, by the evangelical contingent. It will not be long before you too are labelled an Islamic apologist, at which point your frustration level with the lack of thought with which the debate is prosecuted will wind up a notch.

You also made an observation on the "Mumbai Analysis" thread:

>>This thread has gone way off topic and has become nasty: a moderator should shut it down<<

If you - as I hope you will - stick to your guns, this thought will occur to you quite frequently.

My own view is that this is actually an ideal place for those who fear the very idea of Islam - and there are quite a few - to spew their hate-filled garbage for us all to see.

I consider the motivation for their postings to be so transparent, that they are unlikely to win over even a single convert to their cause. In fact, it is far more likely that anyone who is as yet undecided where rationality lies, will be repelled by the thought of being associated with such bigotry.

My personal battle here has been to maintain that the Christian evangelicals' constant insistence that Muslims are inherently evil is tantamount to rabble-rousing, designed to appeal to those with insufficient mental capacity to work out that they are being manipulated.

Although I doubt there are many of that particular ilk who inhabit this Forum, it is the behavoiur itself that I find abhorrent, and feel obliged to remark upon whenever it rears its ugly head.

I hope that you will, too.

Sorry Keyser Trad, Nothing you say will change my opinion of Islam. I've seen several of your articles in Newspapers and heard you speak on television, and If you are a typical Islam, then you confirm my belief that this is an intolerant bigoted religion. Maybe you are not a typical Muslim. Maybe many Islams feel of you the same way Christians like myself feel about Fred Nile.

Bushbasher...that last post of yours was totally irrational.

If you cannot understand a RELIGION on the basis of it's founder... you cannot understand it at all...

How hard is it to understand "it came from" that person? what is wrong in your brain that you seem to think that one can understand any religion in any other way? Seriously.. there is something very unusual in your thought processes.

How in the world can you understand the Theory of Relativity apart from Einstien? Well actually you can.. because he himSELF is not part of the theory. But if Islam proclaims daily 5 times 'Mohammad is the messenger of Allah' then it follows like night after day that you must know about "him"...does it not?

Nothing has ever.. repeat ever been explained to me which would dethrone that basic reasoning. In fact.. to even try would be ludicrous, absurd and defy all educational processes.

There must be some exotic and strange method of thinking which forms the basis of your output, but I assure you..it is not rationality or reason.

Just try please.. puh-lease.. explain how it is UNreasonable to understand any religion NOT on the basis of it's founders words and deeds?

Note.."The Religion" not it's followers....

Buddhism is not connected to Budda?
Hari Krishna is not connected to Krishna?
Zoroastrianism has nothing to do with Zoroaster?
Sikhism has nothing to do with the Guru's?

When a religion ASSERTS that the founder IS the example to follow.. you would need to have serious mental health issues NOT to 'get' that 'understanding him' is part of the deal.

boaz, you polycarping cretin:

1) of course religious texts and the lives of religious figures give SOME insight into a religion. no one claimed otherwise.

2) that gives you no excuse for your loathsome cherry-picking poison.

3) history tells you there MUST be more to a religion than the texts and the founders. the most respected christian scholars once thought burning witches was consistent with christ and the bible. they thought marching to the middle east to massacre muslims was consistent. they thought executing scientists was consistent. and on and on and homicidally on.

currently, there is no shortage of "christians" who are damn sure that god was on their side when they lied us into the psychopathic iraq war. it is not just the text and the model, it is how you see them: it is the good, or the poison, inside yourself.

for the last and final time: it doesn't matter what the religious texts SAY, it matters what the religious followers DO. all religions have historical baggage and contradictions: all are vulnerable to fundamentalism, and to bad-faith cherry-picking criticism.

and there are thousands of muslims in australia who, by their actions, and by their embracing of peace and tolerance, are a thousand times more christian than you.

Bravo *BushBasher* Bravo
for a most enlightened and eloquent piece.
(and the crowd roars)

..

" ... Hi R0bert
My understanding (not that I've ever had anything to do with it) is that male genital mutilation (circumcision) is heavily frowned upon today for the unnecessary and outdated "procedure" it clearly was. Recent media discussions where I live indicate that parents who want it done will never find a doctor to do it. Nicky ... "

I neither am an expert in this area, but in Indonesia where many are still on the PooWee river system, I suspect it is still a wise precaution from a medical perspective. Outside the great festival and horse ride about which the young fellas are all as proud as punch pre operation, it is probably the case that the water is full of pathogens, which may account for the propensity of certain STD's. And of course, the tissue of the foreskin is far more susceptible to infiltration than the nob.

..

As for genital mutilation and the babes, I can only account for a number of lay perspective inspections pre marriage plus interviews with some of the lokals, including some of the clerics and please do note that the area within which I was was a very strict, traditional area. All that is done is a little nick in order to draw a bit of blood and that is the point. No great amount of tissue is removed and I have not witnessed any loss of normal function or sensitivity.
;-)

Of course the Indos are unique in their interpretation of Islam and my cleric friends all assure me that Islam is very much a work in progress here.

Keyser’s response is to an article in The Age, from a report by the Islamic Women’s Welfare Council.

This is an inside tract on the situation of muslim women here in Australia. Muslim women, reporting on the plight of muslim women, and the barriers to their protection. This is not out of nowhere, Keyser, but it is out of leftfield. They are reporting on their own, on muslim men, on you in fact.

Isolated incidents? Police and legal workers are referring to a sytematic pattern of abuse. They have not singled out certain suburbs or ethnic groups, but all muslims. This is institutionalised violence against Australian women, on Australian soil.

Courage ladies! I applaud your whistle-blowing, and I pray there are no reprisals against you from within the muslim community.

Does anyone care what they have risked so much to say? Or are you too busy applauding Keyser with his quick denials?

From The Age (emphasis not mine):

THE ISLAMIC WOMEN'S WELFARE COUNCIL ON … VIOLENCE

IMAMS favour preserving the family over protecting them, and sometimes advise women to endure beatings.

Legal workers report that Muslim women are particularly vulnerable due to a lack of information and community backlash against women who take legal action.

Police and legal workers say Muslim women often drop charges after husbands come to court with family members and religious leaders and put pressure on them. These conversations are not in English,
and police say they are frustrated that because of it, they cannot carry out Australian laws.

Some women who were legally separated but not religiously divorced reported that their husbands entered their homes and forced them to have sex, and imams said this was permitted because there was still a valid marriage.

Legal workers also had concerns about allegations of sexual assault as part of under-age marriages.
... cont.