Meg,
I am left on some issues and conservative on others. Pretty centre really like most Aussies I reckon.

I'm very, very conservative where tinkering with our legal and political systems are concerned.

For your information: I thought the way Lindy Chamberlain was treated was unbelievably shameful. Yes, I voiced my opinion to whomever was willing to listen. It showed just how dangerous it is 'to like' or 'dislike' somebody suspected of a crime. Her case proves my point actually.

Ditto Pauline Hanson. Ditto the Qld magistrate, I forget her name just now. Ditto the policeman in the Palm Island saga. It demonstrates how dangerous it is when politicians start meddling in the judicial process.

So, did you think Pauline Hanson hard done by or was it OK? Do you agree with what happened to the police sergeant in the Palm Island affair? Or are they different to Dr Haneef? Charges where actually laid against the former two. That wasn't even managed with Dr Haneef.

You get so heated up about the 'left' wing 'enemy' that you are not even willing to consider if there is a point to be made. Why would somebody who thinks what happened to Dr Haneef is worrying automatically be 'left' wing?

Yvonne,

Your willingness to compare Australia with fascist Germany shows how biased you really are.

Your argument that police states creep up on democratic peoples who aren’t careful about personal freedoms is fallacious. Fascists Germany didn’t just happen. I totally dispute your interpretation that the Germans were scared and therefore they gave up their democratic rights. The german people voted overwhelmingly for a candidate who made it very clear he hated Jews and blamed them for all of Germanys post ww1 problems. They wanted lebensraum, they wanted a strong, influential, wealthy, Germany whose national honour had been regained after their disaster at Versailles.

Britain had far more extreme laws during the 70’s and 80’s to combat the IRA, including internment, diplock courts, shoot to kill etc. Yet Britain didn’t descend into fascism/dictatorship.

There is a reason judges don’t make the law, Yvonne. Its because they are not representatives of the public. That role is set aside for parliament, whom we elect.

Its all well and good to have a Westminster system etc, but it isn’t much use if we have all been irradiated by a dirty bomb, or are victims of some biological weapon. The highest freedom, Yvonne, and the one most worth fighting for, is the right to continue living.

It is totally irrelevant to suggest that a murderer would have spent less time in detention. Terrorism has the ability to affect thousands or even tens of thousands in one incident. These people are at war with us, treating them as criminals is insane.

Yvonne said “We are being made so afraid of another…” Did the US gov’t blow up the twin towers? Was Howard responsible for Bali? What about 7/7?

I can’t believe you can be so carefree about people who are out to kill as many civilians as they can. I wonder if you would feel the same if the terrorists only wanted to rape women instead. My bet is you would be screaming for tanks on every street corner.

If you really believe that terrorism is not a threat, maybe you should visit ground zero.

Paul.L has left little to add, save to say that I was as vociferous in my defence of all of the people you mentioned (despite not voting for or particularly liking PH)as I am now in arguing that Dr Haneef was treated entirely appropriately given the risk he posed and his close association with known terrorists. How about you? Did you post on OLO to all and sundry, did you argue with your leftist colleagues over a port or chardonnay that they should picket in support of PH outside of the prison where she was to be strip searched in order to speak to her family? (not Dr Haneef, I might add).

Paul.L has given a good example of the murderous carnage that these poor excuses for humanity attempted to cause, Dr Haneef was closely associated with his cousin (giving him a sim card makes him VERY CLOSE in my book), therefore I consider he is of significant danger to many, until proven otherwise...an unreasonable risk to others and to himself... I notice you didn't offer to line up first to be treated by Haneef should we have the misfortune to have him grace our shores in the future...

Paul.L suggested you visit ground zero, my suggestion is that you take a leaf out of Haneef's book and buy a one way ticket to join him in India. A few days of 'freedom' as an Indian 'woman' should make you R-E-A-L-L-Y appreciate Australia. The grass may well LOOK greener elsewhere, but careful it isn't really just the scum or algae rising to the top of a pond.

Meg, I rarely drink port or Chardonnay. I prefer Shiraz. What do you drink?

I'll tell you a little of my background.

My entire family hails from Europe. Continental Europe. My mother's family spent 4 years in concentration camps. One of my grandmothers was raped as was an aunt by invaders. Do either of you have experience with concentration camps or rape?

I was born and grew up in socalled third world countries. Both in South America and West Africa. I have lived in some politically volatile countries, where the law was a bit of an arbitrary matter. Depended a bit on the relevant minister. All elected of course.

During the 70's when the PLO was active and other terrorist groups, when passenger planes were hijacked at the drop of a hat, I well remember the security checks, the airports with army tanks and soldiers.

I was living and working in London during the 80's, when the IRA was very active. Probably because the British have dealt with terrorists on their own soil for a long time they are less prone to hysteria.

As for the Twin towers, without a doubt a horrendous act which cost many, many lives left barely a blip on our global economic juggernaut. If you want to visit places like ground Zero, also visit Pearl Harbor, Dachau, the endlessly stretched out burial grounds in Europe where allied soldiers are buried.

And Paul, I never compared Australia with fascist Germany. I greatly doubt your assertion that you spent much time at all studying or reading much of anything at any university. The history of Germany I didn't read in little English history books. It is personal living history to me.

I doubt that either of you have any remote experience of what it is to live in a non-democratic nation. That is why you can be so cavalier about our freedoms. Especially when threatened we must have courage and show that we know our way of government and law are the best.

First we have the Left speaking out, now we got the extreme right speaking out.

Bush and Howard did not play a role in 911. But which nation has been guilty of War Crimes in Iraq, the USA. I did not hear the government cry out and say they should be brought before the International Court of Justice.

Who stuffed up the Haneff case? How did one person managed to get through Security at one of our major airports without his luggage been check?

Yes we have a right to afraid not only of Terrorist, but been protected by our Government.

VERY, very, well put Yvonne.

Meg1, Your invective bile is bordering on hysteria. You may hold your views, but your vicious attacks on those who beg to differ are becoming somewhat galling.

Having just 'discovered' this thread I look for to a prolonged and meaningful discussion with you.