Meg1,

You admit to not knowing all the facts; and also admit that the security forces are imperfect. I haven’t denied the need for security forces, but question the ability of the current organisations in place. Unfortunately, flaws in such systems can lead to disastrous miscarriages of justice - look at what has happened to some of the asylum seekers.

Is there something wrong in wanting organisations such as these to be better at what they do? It certainly makes for a safer and more secure society for all.

In 1992, resource reductions for ASIO were cut by 60 staff with a $3.81 million budget decrease, both occurred within a four year time frame. This must tell you something ...

Decreased resources, and a demand for results, can lead to cutting corners and abuses. This applies in every arena of work, not just in security issues. ASIO certainly wouldn’t have inherited any skills from the parlous AFP which predated them.

If someone went to ASIO, or the AFP, and mounted compelling accusations against you, Meg1, of being a subversive, wouldn't you want extemely professional investigators.

I didn’t use my my “experiences,” as you say, on deciding what is fact and what is fiction. But I certainly know what terrorism is all about.

Incidentally, I couldn’t care less if you, or others, don’t agree with me. That is your, and their, perogative.

I must confess that I find your posts somewhat amusing. You do go off, don’t you?

Danielle, you argue that inadequacies in the security forces can lead to miscarriages of justice, so too do inadequate restraints on prospective terrorists...more so, in fact. 9/11, Bali, so many examples...perhaps everyday life in Iraq is a good example.

I guess if I gave my sim card to a terrorist cousin (sorry I don't have one) and attempted to flee the country immediately after a bungled bombing, I'd place myself at risk of attention from the security forces...and I'd consider it MY OWN STUPID FAULT, if I did...so too should Haneef. The AFP don't make a habit of picking people up for not wearing a scarf in public as is imposed in some countries...I guess you don't see that is an imposition on freedoms for those who'd rather not comply in Iraq and elsewhere though.

'Incidentally, I couldn’t care less if you, or others, don’t agree with me. That is your, and their, perogative.'

...ditto...but isn't it good to have the chance to freely debate the issues and hear other points of view, not possible in many countries.

'You do go off, don’t you?'

...I'm pleased you get amusement from something, happy to oblige...as for 'going off'...from the pot to the kettle, is it? Re-read your posts...ROFL! Now there's probably someone you could call about hauling that log out of your own eye too...you might even make a $ on the side from woodchipping or something. : )

Danielle

You said ” I personally didn’t have the brush with spooks, but was told about it after a male was arrested in the block of flats in relation to importing drugs”

Well that’s an open and shut case isn’t it then. Lets get rid of the whole lot of them. Wait, we haven’t worked out who or what they were. But surely Chinese whispers are enough to go on. Aren’t they. My friend heard from her sisters uncles boyfriend……..

So if you were in England during the eighties you would know all about Internment, Diplock courts, shoot to kill etc. Which were far, far more draconian than anything we have in Australia. Here is a list of terror attack in the UK. From nearly forty attacks there appear to be TWO attributable to Animal Liberationists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

I will ask you again for a single example of an ASIO mistake in the Haneef case. In fact, if you have any evidence of their involvement at all I would like to hear it.

The lesson wasn’t about acronyms, I was pointing out that you had no idea about what the various agencies were responsible for, or what their British equivalents were. It seems it gets worse.

You said “understood that a Security Service was set up in 1949, effectively taking over much of what the AFP did (and abysmally); and in 1950 expanded, becoming what is now known as ASIO”

But the AFP weren’t even formed until 1979, so how exactly ASIO took over from them I’m not sure. This no doubt accounts for their abysmal performance in the late 40’s.

Danielle, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Maybe it’s about time you did some actual research of your own on these issues and stopped relying on the far-left propaganda.

Well, I did admit I'm not privy to the info AFP or ASIO have, but gee I'm glad that Paul.L has kept up with their history and that of the British security forces...I do remember though that it was the British who shot dead a 'suspect' Brazilian who had a backpack and was running to catch a train, I guess we all make mistakes...some are just fatal, sadly...even the British ones.

...and wasn't it the British who gave false info on the infamous sim card's whereabouts?

'But the AFP weren’t even formed until 1979, so how exactly ASIO took over from them I’m not sure. This no doubt accounts for their abysmal performance in the late 40’s.'

ROFL, Danielle...at least I don't argue on things I know NOTHING about...you on the other hand seem to make the detail up as you go along...or do you pick it up from your flatmates once they've loosened up over a few drinks? Well said Paul! I guess most organisations could be excused for non-performance if they don't exist at the time, huh?

'Danielle, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Maybe it’s about time you did some actual research of your own on these issues and stopped relying on the far-left propaganda.'

Amen to that Paul, but of course she probably thinks it's more fun relying on gossip and a few drinks or whatever to gather the info on all those 'other subversive types' that aren't permanently leaning to the left like Danielle and her mates, right Danielle?

I guess you take over from Ginx as the resident (_?_) on this thread at this point...ROFL.

Meg1 and Paul.L,

Go to the ASIO site and check their history.

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) were appalling in the 1940's - they hounded innocents with a naivity beyond words. An Australian woman, who was a refugee from the Nazi occupation in France, was terrorised by the AFP; her crime - she had said that she didn't like Churchill - her brother had been killed during the fiasco of Gallipoli, which Churchill orchestrated.

Free speech and all that ..

It didn’t seem to occur to them that nazi “agents” wouldn’t sprout anti-Churchill comments.

In fact, Meg1, “undersirables” and subversives would more likely come on overly uncritical and loyal to their “country”. Just like you do ...

Another Australian woman whose Austrian-Jewish husband had been gassed in Auschwitz, along with his entire family, was as an exchange POW - also also from France. She returned to Australia with the same woman above. This young non-Jewish woman, traumatised and grieving, and with a toddler, was met by the AFP as she disembarked from the ship. They terrorised her, accusing her of being a nazi spy. They broke into her home on numerous occasions; smashed her brother's radio equipment (a hobby of his). He was away fighting in New Guinea.

Apart from having a Austrian-Jew for a husband, another piece of "proof" of this woman’s fascist leanings was a letter she had written years prior. She had been to Italy and wrote that the Italian police on point duty were so gorgeous, she would like to smuggle one home in her trunk. She was interrorated, kept under surveilance, and hounded unmercifully; her friends were also hounded. In fact, she had to keep a diary of all people with whom she come in contact - and they also immediately became suspect. Having been interrogated by the expert SS, she was not impressed by the AFP’s warning that they did not like to get rough, unless they had too.

Paul.L,A

This for a fact. This latter woman was my mother. I also have records from the Australian Archives. Is this enough proof?

cont ...

When she was leaving Australia in 1947 to marry my step-father, a British Colonial Officer in Malaya during the Terrorist Emergency, - the AFP’s comments to her - “Isn’t it strange that where-ever you go, war breaks out.”

How naively dangerous is that.

Sounds so like you Meg1, who doesn’t believe experience, knowledge, and travel count for anything. What exactly do you bring to this debate?

Phillip.L

“From nearly forty attacks ... TWO attributable to Animal Liberationists.”

Thus .. Animal Liberationists were of security concern.

During the War and immediately post-war in this country, the security body here was called Australian Federal Police. Logically, this body would have been set up on outset of war.

Yes, the Brits can be brutal - internment (other countries, including ours, had camps during the war), shoot to kill ... no-one has been shot in this country by police ... ? You really don’t want to travel this road ...

Mistakes?! ... Sending several Afghani asylum seekers back to their country to be executed on arrival. Did any Australian G.O. lose sleep over that? The imprisonment of an asylum seeker for five years in Baxter - a very well-known dissident and writer, who had to flee his country. I believe PEN managed to get him released ... Again, you don’t want to travel this road ...

Re: Haneef

Does an Indian write in English to an Indian relative? ... False info about the sim card ...

Any interrogation is suspect and flawed when the language, used by the interrogators, is not the native tongue of the person being interrogated. Or, if the suspect is neither completely fluent and at ease, nor literate in the language used by the interratogators.

Security departments must have the necessary expertise to handle the job.

I am neither left or right ... am an independent thinker. In my third age, I do not carouse with my mates drinking. I support dissidents living under oppressive regimes, but I am no bleeding heart.

Meg1/Phillip.L - your "decisions" about me couldn’t be more wrong.

Heaven help others ...