Rather silly contemplating Haneef’s “return to Australia” now that his own government is interested in him for possible links to Al Qaeda, and we are still interested in him, not to mention his suspicious email exchanges with a relative.

How has the Haneef case shown that “this (the war on terror) must be balanced with individual rights and fundamental principles of justice to ensure that Australia remains a civilised, principled society.” Or, rather, who says that they Haneef case was not handled in this way? The man was dealt with legally and humanely. He was released because of lack of evidence, but his 457 visa was cancelled, wisely, because the Australian Government is not satisfied that he is a person of good character and, now apparently, neither is the Indian government.

Andrew Boe seems to be overlooking facts to carry on with the campaign against law and order in Australia, and the Government’s attempts to protect the country and population.

How on earth can anyone, even the loony left white ants, think that Haneef can be allowed to return to Australia after being under suspicion of terrorist activities? He has lost nothing. He is not Australian. He has no moral right to be here; nor has he any legal right to be here if the Australian Government decides that he hasn’t. Even if he is totally innocent (and the doubt of that increases daily), Haneef is insignificant against the security and safety of Australians.

Haneef is now India’s problem. Get over him

I would have thought that the Haneef case is a prime example of trial by media and activist lawyers over the right of the government of the nation to protect its citizens from harm.

I think there is an argument that our government representatives did not handle the pressure from the media and the activist lawyer on Haneef's behalf well. This is understandable when issues, wars etcetera can be won or lost by mass media propaganda not backed by any proven truth.

Public opinion is the terrorist's weapon against us in this environment.

The sooner we in the west recognise Islam as a political totalitarian ideology protecting itself within the spiritual and it is waging a war on us, a 4th generation war, that we are not prepared for within our legal and defence framework, the better it will be for all. Then we can frame the debate and reaction to meet the threat as it is.

Good riddance to Haneef; I only hope that now foreign muslim doctors are rejected for entry here (don't care what the reason is, just keep them out).

Our system of government has been the real loser. How can anyone respect parliament when the PM and senior ministers put politics ahead of principles? Do we agree that the end justifies the means?

As for the author's claim that "Haneef is now cleared of any involvement in terrorism", I don't get that impression, rather that there was insufficient evidence. If innocent, that is a bit unfair to Haneef.

My other concern from this affair is the usual lack of ethics of our media. There were reports of initial offers of $150 000 for Haneef for an interview and doubtless there will be more to come. The media makes news and buys news, so no wonder the TV news and current affairs shows have zero credibility.

Not so long ago when Mr Howard and his knucklemen (a non-gender term) were indulging in the Liberals' favourite sport of ABC knocking, we were told that the 'marketplace' would deliver copious quantities of quality TV - all through the marvel that is commercial television. So OK Mr Howard, after being inundated with reality TV, advertisements 24/7 and bought and staged interviews, just how much credibility do you reckon you are due?

This Secrecy Business is an illness. Let's get to the seat of the infection, rather than try to treat the symptoms.

Firstly, I have NEVER seen any actual factual, forensic evidence for the organism known as Al Qaeda. If such an organism were to exist at all, it could only thrive in the petri dish of secrecy. It would be nourished by secrecy. Why? Because the simple truth is a sterile environment. Truth is a disinfectant.

And secrecy is a BUSINESS. It is a cheap trick. It provides employment for those who have no utilitarian abilities whatsoever. Just make it up as you go.

These New Age guys actually fantasize that they can know in advance what people are thinking. They look for signs and portents in the entrails of our everyday lives. They stare into the tea-leaves of old e-mails like demented astrologers. This is how witch-doctors have always traditionally worked.

I am tired of being treated like a ignorant savage. Go wave your bone somewhere else. Better still, get a job!

Go make the world a better place for a change. Go get some dirt under your useless fingernails.

You could begin by announcing what everybody knows - that the only true terrorists abroad today are the Bush Administration, together with their pimps around the world, not the least of which are their Australian sycophants.

FORGET APEC SECURITY HOUND HANEEF

Its not the terror laws that are at fault its their POLITICAL IMPLIMENTATION. Justice shouldn’t be driven by the Government's electoral needs.

Why is the Government still shafting Haneef?

Does it have a continuing political need?

Haneef is no longer under Australian jurisdiction. They let him go for lack of evidence – why keep on spending (say) $10,000+ a day on what has only been remotely a UK case?

Seizing on Haneef for the election has stressed out the AFP. Keelty, in the same interview yesterday said Haneefs former SIM card was in two places at once? Both of which were wrong:

".. the SIM card is still in the vicinity of London at the time that the devices were attempted to be exploded,...The SIM card is still at Glasgow, at the airport, at the time that the attempted bombing happened there." http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22175066-601,00.html

The SIM card was found in Liverpool.

On this basis of sound fact checking nail em up I say (in time for the election) just in case, aye fellas?

Watching SBS news it currently appears the Government is basing the case against Haneef on what Indian detectives say and/or an elusive money trail. This is after the AFP (and other Australian government bodies) have been talking to India for over 3 weeks.

Have the Indian's just discovered new evidence about the man the Australian justice system and executive just released?

The UK Australian sensitivities (that Andrews claimed were huge) must be huge because the Brits weren't even interested in extraditing him back to the UK.

But the T word was mentioned. He is brown and Muslim so that is sufficient for the Government.

After Cry Wolf the AFP is demoralised, Keelty exhausted but they all need to be tiptop because and APEC is in several weeks.

100,000s of Government man hours that could have gone into pre APEC security have clearly been diverted for political reasons.

Pete

Chris Shaw I'm not sure if you're really serious, are you? No-Al-Qaeda? They-take-'credit'-for-terrorist-activities...they-don't-wait-to-be-'attributed-blame'. Ignoring your anti-Bush sentiments, and I'm not in the Bush-fan-club,we need to be really afraid of what you've dangerously demonstrated...fools or political-hacks who are so blinded by political bias, they refuse-to-see-the-wood-for-the-trees.

Haneef is either a-moron-or-a-terrorist...he set himself up as a suspect on many counts.

If his wife was due to have a baby (remembering that he's a 'doctor'), why wasn't she delivering-in-AUSTRALIA, at the hospital he worked at? He wasn't here for a weekend, after all! ...Or why wasn't he with her, as his duty to his job obviously meant little judging by his quick decision to fly out without notice...

Wouldn't you think that she'd want her husband, the medico, to share the birth? Wake up and smell the wood rot!

If I was an innocent Haneef and left the country, I think that I would:
(a) remove perishables from the refrigerator.
(b) take the washing off the line.
(c) let my employers know where I was going and for how long.
(d) BOOK A RETURN TICKET!
(e) Not be in possession of an e-mail that advised me to get out fast or that suggested that no one was on to me yet.
(f) Not have given my 'sim' card to anyone else, let alone a suspected terrorist or anyone in another country!
(g) Not have so many associates who were known or associates of terrorists.
(h) ...have booked the ticket as soon as wifey was in labour if I seriously wanted any credibility regarding that as the reason for going...and anyway she would have been in Australia, delivering at the hospital I worked in, with a specialist assisting...if I seriously felt the sentiments about Australia that he is now espousing about living here...here was the perfect opportunity - baby would have been Australian!

I'ts far easier to be a 'bleeding heart' from a distance than a bleeding body lying victim to a terrorist bomb...or the poor security forces who are trying to protect you from your own stupidity, Chris!

it's all about power. in oz, as long as cabinet can command the vote of caucus, the prime minister is master of australia. it's not legal, there is no 'prime minister' in the constitution. but it's real: his gang controls parliament, parliament controls the faceless nonentity whose signature legitimizes oz law and policy.

there is no legal obstacle to the head gangster doing what he pleases in australia. lately, adventures abroad in the tail of the american imperium have made it possible someone might wish to remind us that sending gunmen to a foreign land is a chancy business, likely to draw return fire. this would be detrimental to re-election prospects. so we have 'terror laws'. the head gangster not only can whisk anyone off the street, he can keep him in a box indefinitely. and he can keep it a secret. or he can release selected information, frightening the timid. there are a lot of very timid people in australia, so the terror laws have a second value to the pollies.

to paraphrase ben franklin: those who trade freedom for security will soon have neither.

ozzies have only the freedom of sheep in a paddock, undisturbed by the grazier as long as they show up for shearing, and never ever say "enough!" to pollie rule. soon they will have even less freedom, and no security at all. they deserve what they get.

So DEMOS move to India or Iraq and see how much freedom or security you get there...

Yes, Australia's pollies are largely puppets for the big end of town...and that's both sides of politics! Media reports today indicate that boat builders are seeing record orders placed for their luxury yachts and the economists figure that means the economy is booming. No, that just means that all the wealth is being concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people and we all should remember what happens when inequality of power and wealth becomes too skewed to the few.

Terrorist elements breed on conflict and inequalities...or on apathy and bleeding heart lefties. It is interesting to note that history shows again and again that the extreme 'bleeding heart' malcontents who agitate against all authority are traditionally the first victims of any new 'regime'...they quickly realise that they don't want malcontents either.

No one 'deserves' evil or ill to be perpetrated...you need to examine your motives, DEMOS and ask who or what you really have an axe to grind against...and go live with them, when you figure it out.

Pathetic as our pollies are, the answer is to try to keep them on their toes with reality and facts, not politically motivated bias and bs or stand for parliament yourself. I still wouldn't trade them for their Iraqi or Indian counterparts...would you?

Leighs point is well made Haneef is now Indias' problem.

However the ineptitude displayed by the AFP and the government is ours - and I think that is the point.

It is far too soon to make a call on Haneef except to say he gave the Government and the AFP a free kick when he elected to leave. Had he stayted he would remian an plank in their eye and had they actually muscled him out the same applies -

All the amatuer slueths out there trying to join the dots based on what we know is really a waste of time - whether he cleaned out his fridge is really immaterial.

The decision of the DPP to declare there was insufficient evidence to secure a conviction begs the question of whether the evidence they had in the forst place, seemingly distorted, was enough to arrest him in the first place - and now we have linguists of questioonalbe credentials in the public, the media and the AFP reading all manner of inferences to chatter on the internet.

I think we have gone off half cocked - as usual - when faced with a whiff of terrorism -

Don't you think that if we had a different government, rather than this lot with its base political motives, the same result may have been achieved but with far more decency and diplomacy.

I can imagine a different prime minister saying something like;

"We do feel for Dr Haneef in that he has had to be detained, questioned, and ultimately asked to leave our country. If he is indeed innocent of any involvement with the Glasgow incident then we recognise that he is just another victim of the terrorism that is plaguing the nations of the world. It is hoped that he can understand the actions of our government, tasked with protecting our citizens from any possibility of harm, that we need to revoke his visa. While recognising the impact on him and his family we feel that in these matters we have had little choice but to have proceeded in the manner we have. We thank Dr Haneef for his co-operation with our authorities and wish that the reunion with his wife and newborn will help soften the obvious stress of the last few weeks."

TEAM.... if anyone thinks the AFP is a bunch of dills...they only need attend the trial of the Melbourne 13 and see just how it all operates.

Until you have DONE this..(as I have) you will not even begin to appreciate the level of detail and depth of their investigations.

Chris... mate.. leave it alone, you are becoming a total joke mate..seriously.. "no Al Qaeda" why ? errr..because no one has shown YOU.... evidence... wake up mate..open your eyes and ears.

Meg1.. well said.

There is little need to be afraid of 'bumbling' AFP when the likes of Russo, Rob (Mon)Starry, Greg Barns and others who appear to care ONLY for the slightest technical glitch in a case to set allegedly dangerous people (who hold our legal system in utter contempt, by not standing in respect for it) free.

and they do it, often at OUR expense.. making sure the legal aide funds are allocated before lifting a clip board.. "pro bono" ? hah! 'professional welfare cheats' in my opinion.

It would be nice if police and politicians and the courts could earn the money that they get paid for and work to determine this guy's guilt or innocence and not come up with some half mashed cock-up- again.

Talk about an absolute waste of time, our money and space.

Scrap all these stupid laws and agencies, they obviously have no function other than to make people believe that pollies are doing something.

The average Joe Blow in the street is more than capable of dealing with any terrorist he or she may come across, and we don't need to paying a bunch of idiots to pretend to be doing it for us!

Hi to **Jellyback and a few others...

I see that you've all determined that the AFP, Qld Police and others, seem to have been rendered ineffectual, with respect to their handling of the Dr Haneef matter. And just how would you know that ?

I would suspect you and your kind simply base this assertion on the rather unreliable information you've managed to garner from the media.

In reality, the public are generally left 'out of the loop' completely, in order to permit ongoing investigative processes to proceed without any unnecessary intrusion from the public and media.

It would indeed be quite vacuous for anyone to think for a moment, that the AFP and Qld Police are not totally 'across' all of Dr. Haneef's activities and associations.

Where the problem exists - it is all well and good 'knowing' something to be a fact, but to 'prove' it, in criminal proceedings, can be substantially more difficult. The burden of proof lies with the crown.

The standard of proof required in criminal matters...the Crown MUST prove it's case, to a point beyond that of a reasonable doubt. That, I can assure you, is sometimes another matter !

Give your support to the coppers, they're doing their best, often under extraordinarily difficult conditions.

What a sick joke!
We’re supposed to be afraid of these terrorism laws and the Howard government…and not of you?
This is the greatest piece of spin, propaganda and demogogery ever.
‘Faceless investigators’? What a joke! What’s not a joke is that one of those investigators died suddenly, just doing his job, and not a word since, from any of the do-gooder Left’, of sympathy for him and his family…as usual , all care reserved for the suspected terrorist…we can only imagine what stress that policeman might have been under, with the Rottweilers of the Leftist media and the Labor lawyers baying for innocent blood, waiting to pounce should he make a mistake…one slip, and in for the kill.
There would never be a terrorist that the Left wouldn’t happily let loose on the Australian people…what do you care… so good for the image!!
You pretend that our police made the sim card mistake, knowing it was Scotland Yard.
Andrews’ information wasn’t faulty…….his explanation more than justified revocation of the visa.
The recklessness, brutality and dangerous behaviour were all from your side…Leftist media, Beattie, Labor lawyers, and the Haneef lawyers…from nowhere else.
Haneef’s chat with his brother was too careful for innocence( a reasonable person could conclude).
It also shows that his brother had not been expecting him home in India , before everything hit the fan in Scotland….so it wasn’t a one-way trip to see his baby.
You also conveniently neglect to mention the Indian police dossier on Haneef.
Since you’re so close to ‘my life is an open book’ Beattie and his magistrate, why don’t you ask them to end the 17 year long cover-up and reveal to the Australian people that Rudd was top adviser to the premier, when the Goss Labor government decided to break the law by shredding evidence ( that they had been asked by barristers to preserve for forthcoming legal proceedings )…to avoid scrutiny of sexual abuse of children in state government care ? Rudd had to have known and condoned it.
Human rights?? We have nothing to fear except the Left.

Have any of you dills bothered to look at the "Indian Police Dossier" the one that the Indian police deny they compiled? Anyone could have put it together.

Have you bothered to read the transcript of the AFP interview with Haneef, where he explains his yahoo IM conversation? Why is an english translation released? The conversation was in Urdu.

Parliament soon, then the Federal Court hearing on the 8th. This has a long way to go.

My bet is that Andrews will not be a minister for much longer.

Andrew

The one thing to come out of the Haneef case is the fact that you can have your visa cancel on the following grounds:

1. A member of your family could be a active member of a Terrorist Group.

2. You may not be aware of a family member's association.

3. You may not be a member of Terrorist Group.

4. The fact that a member of your family is involved with such a group is suuficient for the Minister of Immigration to deny or cancel your visa.

Some may say it is better to be safe than sorry, despite the fact that you are been punished for their sins. I say is justice been served?

Supposing that your brother or sister or cousin or aunt or uncle is a terrorist then the question might be- what comes first, your family or some foreign community?
What about family honour? If you think they can get away with it if you say nothing or if you lie then what do you do? Say nothing? Lie? Is loyalty to family more important than a risk to others?
The relatives of terrorists, even the distant relatives, do not necessarily think rationally or in the same way as those for whom there is a threat of being injured or killed by terrorists.
We are making the mistake of assuming that the loyalties of the relatives of terrorists are with the (potential)victims of terrorism rather than the terrorists.

From BB

Looking for some thread to place this, but here goes, for might have discovered some good news about so-called terrorists for a change.

A brief from a Guardian article:

We cite two shadowy figures of the Iraqi resistance, Abdal Rahmein Zubeidy and Abdallah Suleiman Omary, both navigaters of what is called the 1920s Brigades, their brigades title copied from the name of the Iraqi revolutionary force who were air- bombed with mustard gas, when tens of thousands were killed by the British in 1920.

For more than four years Omary and Zubeidy have stayed mostly out of sight, while organizing an ever more stronger campaign that has helped bring the world’s most powerful military force to the brink of defeat.

However, Zubeidy and Omary do not associate much with Al Quida, and also try be independent from Iran. Moreover, the military leader of their brigades is a Kurd. So you will find with us, they appear to say, not only Sunnis, but faithful Iraqi Shias, as well as Iraqi Kurds. And we all hate the Americans says Zubeidy, for what they have done and still doing to us.

At the heart of this incredible alliance is a rejecton of the murderous sectarianism that has come to grip Iraq. They are also against suicide bombing because too many innocent people are killed. Further, they want not only all Americans to go home but also all foreign troops.

It is so incredible that because they have already proven the capacity to build into a united force of Sunnis, non-Iranian Shias and Kurds, they apparently have ideas of forming a democratic government without outside help.

Altough they are all Islamics - as a very liberal ecumenical Christian, all one can say is God be with them - and I hope I get backing from our Online comrades.

Cheers - BB

Excellent article. After all we are all fighting terrorism because we think our system of government and law is superior. So this little fiasco has left a bit of egg on our 'democratic and innocent until proven guilty' faces. As Cornflower said: surely we cannot say the end justifies the means.

To top it off our minister of the Crown for Immigration revokes a visa because legally there was no avenue to hold Dr Haneef! It couldn't have been done any better by a minister in the government of say Iran, or Libya, or Sudan.

For all you folks who think Dr Haneef got his wife to have a caeserian section so he could flee Australia and that he could hide his terrorist connection after 3 weeks of round the clock investigation by an army of highly capable Federal Police who are doing such a marvelous job in Melbourne would make him one excellent recruit for Al Qeada. What is he doing in Australia for Goodness sake? He deserves a better posting!

Sounds like a top 'sleeper' to me. Somehow I don't think Australia is that important in the global scheme of thing for such a high calibre terrorist.

Either you think a country like Australia has the most preferable style of government and legal system and her citizens should jealously guard this respect for justice and government and vigorously question whenever there seems to be overstepping of the mark, or you agree with the fundamentalists and think we are slack, decadent and weak and sorely need some God given laws with unelected imams implementing same.

We CANNOT afford to be frightened into such fear of Them, that we are willing to sacrifice any of our processes and principles of law that we believe make us a sophisticated democracy and liberal society. What is the point then of resisting terrorism? A few deaths? We kill thousands on the roads, we have plenty of suicides and enough murders of the 'ordinary' kind to keep us occupied.

I vote for CSteele as the next prime minister of Australia. His/her previous post about the regretful necessity of our treatment of Dr Haneef is the best summary of the issues I have heard or seen.

Too much that is said is based on a previous opinion. The government is wicked, and so everything is evil and coverup. We are racist, and so everything about this case is victimisation of skin colour.

Dr Haneef is either innocent or guilty of some kind of connection with terror. How can we know at this stage? If he is innocent then the apology phrased by CSteele is apposite. If he is guilty, then a lot of ideologs have egg on their faces.

I've waded through Andrew Boe's piece twice and I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to " be afraid, be very afraid" of, apart from terrorism.

Great article!

Some of the most brilliant minds in the world can be found in our legal fraternity here in Australia.

These men and women do a superb job at challenging those who would undermine equity for one individual, safeguarding the potential disastrous ramifications for the greater community.

For the poster who didn't get the ending comment 'be afraid, be very afraid...' maybe this will explain the message further ...

'First they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
And there was no-one left
To speak out for me.'

Actually,I'm more afraid of our litigious legal system that makes a fortune premoting rights over responsibilities.

The real terrorists live in our midst.It is our own apathy.The terrorists are actually doing us a favour.We are beginning to remember why we fought the great war of WW2.

Lawyers taking on cases like Haneef's is fine with me, as long as the taxpayer bears none of the cost, should their client fail.

Fair enough Meg1. Fair enough Davo.

I would be most interested in your conception of Al Qaeda, it's history and it's achievements. Mind that your references and links contain some real documentation. Videos would be nice (not tooooo blurry). Please don't include translations that can't be properly verified - and no scribbled notes found under a piece of goat's cheese in a shepherd's hut on the slopes of Tora Bora. Don't stretch our credibility that far!

Come on. I want REAL stuff. Give it to me please. It's time for YOU to do some thinking, while I take my ease.

While we're waiting, here's a little collection of videos to keep the rest of us amused:

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=1776115965172544683&q=fake+al+qaeda&total=141&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=3865048042993700360&q=press+for+truth&total=692&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

The latest Clark and Dawe will appear here anytime soon:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/clarkedawe.htm

(bushbred, do you have broadband - can you watch these videos? Let me know if not, and I will send some seditious DVDs to you - cheers. PS Don't tell Mr Ruddock!)

"'First they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew..............
..............

Then they came for me
And there was no-one left
To speak out for me.'"

I have never read such utter garbage in all my entire life.

I assume that you and Andrew are implying that if the current right wing government was left unchecked we would all be under threat of being whisked away from our house in the middle of the night never to be seen again if we utter any islamic or threatening opinions?

Its a shame that most of you dont seem to have any real understanding of what it is actually like to live in a society where you have no basic human rights and the government rules with an iron fist. Comparing the Australian Government to the governments or leaderships who commited to the murdering of 6 million jews and the starvation of its citizens in the name of communism is ridiculous. You are trivialising this horrible time in history by flippantly implying that our democratic government and way of life is in anyway similar to that of Hitlers or Stalins hidious regimes.

Have you ever felt that you could not speak your mind in this country regardless of the government? Has the government ever taken any member of your family away in the middle of the night?....I doubt it

If you are so definate about the Australian governments supposed 'racism' than I suggest you go and find a different country to live in.....only problem is I doubt youll find one that will allow you to be who you are. A communist government will penalise you for being enterprising, an islamic government will penalise you if you are female and the americans will simply shoot you.... good luck!

Stop complaining - you live in the best country in the world - try and see past the political games and realise what is actually happening. It is vitally important to protect our way of life which allows you to be so ridiculously ignorant.

Real rightly asks why you lefties don’t give a damn about the AFPoliceman who died on the job…or his family…only-terrorist-smpathisers-it-seems?

So Yvonne, let’s all learn how-to-behave-like-good-little-Muslim-women,-or-is-it-good-little-terrorist-victims…you-go-first! Lie down and take it? Are you for real? Accept some will die from terrorism? Save us from the likes of you…

Liz, you’ve used the quote “First they came…” completely out-of-context – it’s true if you were living in Iraq and didn’t do something to protect what little freedom you had left. Or, in the Australian context, if you all sit back and argue your leftist #@$*#! till the cows come home and ignore the present and real dangers from terrorism, to yourselves and your Jewish, Christian, Agnostic, ‘bleeding heart leftist’ or whoever lives beside you…neighbours.

Spare us from the ‘elite’ legal fraternity…Russo and Co who argue pedantics, not justice or truth…they’ve little to do with the law as it’s applied or was intended.

Chris Shaw, I hope you’re researching your El Quaida propaganda on-your-own-time and that my taxes or your employer aren’t paying for it…the Guardian indeed. I don’t care if they call themselves “Chris-Shaw’s-bleeding-heart-bombers”, the fact is, suicide-bombers (of-any-group) and their terrorist mates are all-an-insidious-evil-blight on this century and they have to be dealt with and the community protected from them, as far as possible.

RE: Haneef – he’s a suspect because of his own actions…either he’s guilty or a complete moron. For an innocent man, his eyes blinked at a rate of knots that would break any previous record…where’s the Guiness Book of Records when you need them! I don’t loan or give my sim card to any outside of my immediate family and they would be disqualified from that list if they were terrorist sympathisers or their ilk…Dr Haneef would have to be a closet sympathiser or terrorist or so stupid as to warrant being locked up for his own protection…from himself!

Arjay and others make some very good points. Izzo too, sums it up well…in few other countries could they voice such profound leftist ignorance and live to tell the tale…long live democracy…long live Australia’s freedoms!

Meg and the rest of you wallies. You waffle on about "freedoms" but these are the very things we are losing.

There is no freedom of speech in Australia. You can be jailed for telling the truth.

Do you understand the ramifications of the terror laws? Do you understand why they are wrong? Of course not.

The principles are simple, the Govt makes laws. The judges interpret them. This separation ensures that everyone is treated equally.

When the Govt makes laws and Govt officials interpret them we have lost our freedoms, we are closer to a fascist state, it is wrong.

If Labor win the next election I fear for my country, not from anything the Govt may do, but from the right wing fanatics who will follow Timothy McVeigh. People who will never accept that their point of view is wrong.

I do not fear islamic fundamentalists, I fear my fellow citizens. How sad.

Meg. Hopefully the shortest OON response on record. "Jean Charles de Menezes".
Sleep well!

Runawake

It is you and your fellow bleeding hearts who don’t get it. You have clearly never lived in a society where there is no freedom of speech. In Burma, Aung San Suu Kyi has spent most of her adult life in some kind of detention merely for being anti gov’t. They would have killed her but the global community has warned the Burmese not to. In the Islamic world apostates ( those who renounce their religion) and adulterers can be sentenced to death. Women who are raped are killed by their fathers and brothers. Thousands of protesters in Tianamen Square Beijing were killed for being involved in an anti gov’t protest. The Russians also used to tanks to crush the Prague Spring uprising in 1956 killing hundreds. Robert Mugabe murders his opposition. Hundreds of thousands of people went missing, never to be found in South America in the 70’s and 80’s. Oh and Dr Haneef sat in a prison cell for a few weeks, had his visa cancelled and was then flown home

Liz was so right about being afraid, we really are Nazis of the highest order.

Get a grip people. Runawake you should go live somewhere that your fellow citizens don’t scare you. If you can find such a place since obviously you are scared easily.

Yvonne said “For all you folks who think Dr Haneef got his wife to have a caeserian section so he could flee Australia”
Most of us don’t believe that his wife had anything to do with his reasons for leaving Aust. Meg1 made some very good points about Haneefs motives. No one thinks he’s a terrorist mastermind, he is clearly a minor enabler at best. But there is enough doubt about his innocence to revoke his visa. Its hardly a draconian punishment in the scheme of things.

Ruawake fears us scary OLO posters, which only confirms my earlier comments…

As for Islamic fundamentalists holding no concerns for him…get-a-grip-on-reality…I had a friend who was from a fundamentalist Islamic family and born here, she met an Australian man who wasn’t Islamic. Her brothers tried to burn down her house…with her in it, three times…the couple left the district and severed all connections to start afresh elsewhere. …but you have nothing to fear ruawake, because the fairies at the bottom of your garden keep telling you it’s the #*+%@ facists causing all the trouble…of course, everyone except you leftists and terrorists is a facist, isn’t that right? Terrorism is even justified and accepted by some of the leftist posters who suggest it is ok to lose some lives to terrorists…it seems the end justifies the means when you’re the right political colour.

How about Chinese Falun Gong practitioners...butchered for body parts...?

Why trust the legal fraternity any more than the pollies…(including escapees from the legal ‘profession’ across all parties in all parliaments) There’s a pretty putrid core in that lot too…some of their habits have been found wanting in recent years also.

Red Fairy?…an escapee from Alice’s tea party perhaps? …or another red-flag leftist to boot?
Jean Charles de Menezes’ death was a tragedy, no-less-than-the-thousands-who-die-daily-from-atrocities-perpetrated-around-the-world.-deliberately-designed-to-kill-innocents…from terrorism, from leftist regimes who live by the Orwellian principles of equality. “we are all equal, but some are more equal than others…”

…but get a grip on reality, if you seriously feel you have less freedom to speak out here, then why stay…go to your leftist Nirvana…

and the same applies to Dr Haneef…

… why did he want to come here…alone? Why did he leave his pregnant wife? Surely the need for doctors is greater in his native India so if he’s seriously distressed about his two weeks at her majesty’s leisure…and his visa cancellation...stay with his wife!

How loud did you lot bleet for other innocents who were unfairly incarcerated in recent years or decades…?

…still no answers?

Paul and Meg

Thank you for proving my point. When you tell a fellow citizen to leave the country your true motives are displayed.

Terrorism has been around for centuries, anyone remember Guy Fawkes that good catholic lad? Terrorism is perpetrated by fanatical lunatics, people who see others as different, people like you.

In earlier posts some have used passages from Niemöller.
(What is it they say about generals planning for yesterdays wars?)

If Niemöller was writing today, he’d probably need to express things a little differently-perhaps as follows:

When the police took John Doe into custody,
I spoke up-citing presumption of innocence

When police produced evidence John Doe had communed with terrorists ,
I spoke up -citing his right to freedom of association.

When John Doe was found with bomb making equipment,
I spoke up- citing it as an example of racial profiling & victimisation, & had the case dismissed.

But, when John Doe blew-up Central Railway Station killing hundreds -I was a home in my high security mansion sipping chardonnay, listening to Mahler -I said nothing - I am above counselling widows & orphans

How many people posting on this forum have even one cousin in the family who is a terrorist? How many have more that one? I don't. And I also don't know anyone who does. That's enough suspicion for me to withold his visa.

Dr Haneef, go home and stay there. There are literally MILLIONS of poor Indians that don't have proper access to a doctor. They line up for hours to see a doctor for maybe 2 minutes. The Indian doctors rip them off as much as possible and laugh behind there backs. I am a doctor and have been told this by a few Indian colleagues. We don't need these filthy cultures in Australia.

To this message is for those who keep on attacking other people because of their views on Dr Haneef.

Base on what has been presented in his case, yes he visa should have been cancel.

Would you be happy if your Visa were cancel on the following grounds:
1. A member of your family was a member of a terrorist group.
2. You had no knowledge nor your family of his involvement with such groups.
3. You were not a member nor supportive of such a groups.

Would you?

As for the attacks on people of the Islamic Faith, well this put you in the same group as those who suported Hilter. Kill them because of their religous beliefs.

Southerner

In answer to your question about the cancellation of my visa for the points 1,2 and 3.
No I would not be happy. However I could quite UNDERSTAND it, if another country wanted to keep me out because members of my family have committed terrorist acts. Why don't you blame his family members who committed the crimes.
There are many examples of situations that people are not happy about, however that does not mean the situation should be reversed.
I am not happy that I have to pay more taxes to pay for the hospital costs of people who continue to smoke.
You see, Happy has nothing to do with it. Reason does.

Southener, your comparisons with Hitler are specious. Hitler killed 6 million jews, something the Iranians deny ever happened by the way.

I think it is more likely than not that Haneef was, in some way, associated with terrorists. However, I don't want to kill Haneef, I just don't believe he has a right to live and work in Australia. So we merely sent Haneef home to his birth place. As consequences go, I think that this was relatively benign act. Especially considering punishments handed out to people in Islamic countries.

Izzo

Can't speak for Andrew Boe. I don't know him. My post was just an interpretation of what I believe his ending comments meant. I was responding to a previous poster.

However, I HAVE lived in a country where people had ‘no basic human rights and the government ruled with an iron-fist’.

For me, Australia is slowly evolving into the country I use to live in. It’s an eery experience of daja vu..

You and I will continue to enjoy safety and prosperity, as I did in the country I once lived in. That’s because I live with the privileged position of being a white, Anglo, middle-class citizen. But I’m seeing that the perceived ‘others’ don’t seem to enjoy the basic human rights that the *right* Australians do. Especially to participate in activities like posting on forums such as this, without being spied on, having your posts purposely misconstrued to construct 'evidence', being dragged from your home and family, demonised as a terrorist, having your profession and income robbed from you etc....

Meg1

I believe that Muslims are experiencing a real threat of national insecurity. They are not experiencing the basic human rights ‘we’ enjoy. The women in particular, who can not even walk down the street or catch a bus (particularly during times of media frenzy on yet another Muslim ‘terrorist’) without being harassed, both verbally and unfortunately physically at times

Paul L

What has happened to Haneef is not benign because his career and future earning potential has been robbed from him. His country of origin has also been denied a future skilled surgeon, which they so badly need.

Indian doctors gain surgical experience and skills from Western countries, and take it back to India. He will never gain a residency position in another Western hospital, let alone a working visa in a first world country again. There are far-reaching ramifications.

Whether we believe in his innocence or not is irrelevant. Whether the actions of the Australian Governement is seemingly benign compared to Iran or where ever because they execute people there is also irrelevant. These actions by the Government are not benign in the context of Australian democratic processes.

An executive power, misusing their position to create laws, not agreed to by Australian voters, allowing themselves to go above the law, is not a benign action.

We better watch ourselves or we'll end up getting sanctioned like some autocratic countries, in whose foot prints we appear to be following.

Runawake’s post proves anyone can post on OLO…and democracy in Australia’s still preferable to living in any leftist regime in the world today.

RE: Runawake’s-RED-HERRINGS…reality check!…people-ARE-DIFFERENT! That’s fine by me, until they try to cut someone’s head off and film it for fun…or try to justify their sadism…or bomb innocents ANYWHERE! People’s-DIFFERENCES-aren’t-the-issue…people’s barbarism IS!

My comment wasn’t, “Leave!”…but if life’s so oppressive here…then-live-in-your-own-Nirvana-and-see-what-reality-there-is-like…I repeat the invitation…you’d probably last a week...and-home-would-look-soooo-good!

Horus’ re-vamped version of Pastor Niemoller’s famous “First They Came…” is the best response to your post…read-it-s-l-o-w-l-y…Liz too…RE: Islamic-lack-of-freedoms-especially-women-that’s-my-POINT! …also-PARLIAMENTS-make-LAWS-that’s-what-they-ARE-VOTED-IN-To-Do!

Ozzie’s question about relationship-to-terrorists is valid…I can say with certainty that my rellies aren’t building bombs right now…can’t you? I’ll bet the non-leftists can all concur with his observation also.

Ozzie, I’ve an acquaintance who’s of Indian ancestry and travels to India as a specialist doctor to treat poor Indians - free (and train medical staff). They sit for days in queues to see doctors...treatment of poor Indians or women by their fellow wealthy ‘upper classes’ or their own husbands , is worse than they treat their animals. Dr Haneef’s sudden interest in his wife or baby hasn’t impressed me, based on his previous lack-of-interest in her impending delivery, until his incarceration. As for her caesarean?...well, the reason baby was delivered then and in that manner is anyone’s guess…

Liz……Haneef-CAN-practice-in-India-NOW! He-was-‘practicing’-in-a-Queensland-hospital-until-his-incarceration…any-job-related-problems-should-be-laid-at-his-terrorist-rellie’s-feet-and-his-own!

I’d like to see all the bleeding heart Haneef supporters be first to line for treatment by Haneef should we have the misfortune to suffer his return…they’ll be sipping port in some government-funded-closeted-community, with-a-specially-designated-doctor-of-the-right-faction-at-their-disposal.

Paul.L and ozzie have answered southerner admirably, I concur with their statements and agree, I-wouldn’t-like-it…but-I-wouldn’t-blame-the-government-or-the-country…I’d-be-pretty-furious-with-my-non-existent-rellies-for-messing-up-my-job-opportunities-or-holiday…there’s the difference!

…as for ‘killing’ anyone…never let the truth get in the way of a leftist conspiracy story…he was sent home, probably first class at that…who ‘killed’ anyone? …Oh that’s right, his cousin and his mates did, with bombs…hmmm, God spare us from your line of ‘reasoning’ southerner…remember, if you were picked up by one of his cousins, the punishment might be beheading, slowly and while being filmed to send proof to your family…nothing to be afraid of, huh?

Meg1 the only person to die was one of the cousins so what are you dribbling on about?

Now for some facts.
1. Dr Haneef was never wanted by the British and the AFP knew that 39 hours before they staged the big arrest at the airport, they had no reason to do so.
2. They interrogated him for hours, he got very little sleep or food and then ignored him for 11 more days.
3. They then spent those 11 days giving information they knew to be false to the media.
4. After all that they charged him having known for 14 days that he was innocent.
5. They lied in the courts using a story they made up and knew never to have been true.
6. After the barrister released the transcripts it was clear that far from fleeing he was a on a pre-arranged holiday to see his sick baby girl, he had tried to ring the police 4 times in Britain - he had not broken any Australian law and they were his distant cousins.
7. Mick Keelty has a long history of bad decisions and utter incompetence going back many years.

The ongoing degradation of our'democracy' and abuses of our rights by our politicians must be giving huge comfort to the terrorists.

Meg do you know what your husbands, uncles, son is up to? I doubt most people would.

As for beheading I assume you are talking about Iraq. You know that former secular state that used to be the only country in the region without sharia law.

If martians invaded townsville would you do nothing?

Examine your hatred, is it productive? Or does it just make things worse? Don't you understand you are the problem?

Aspro,

Terrorists can only win if they have the support of the bleeding heart left and the benefit of our legal systems. Terrorism only works on a liberal democracy. Everywhere else they get short shrift. The Islamo-Facists have a vested interest in weakening anti-terror laws, so you will see their supporters marching side by side with all the leftist idiots making the world safer for terrorists. Lenin called the leftist Americans who helped or supported the soviets his ‘USEFUL IDIOTS’.

Marilyn

1. The British police passed on the evidence suggesting the sim card was found in the car at Glasgow Airport. Police picked him up at the Airport hours after he had a conversation with his brother who told him “ They have found out nothing about you”. The one way ticket was booked after this conversation.

2. He didn’t tell his employer he was leaving

3. His wife had given birth nearly 7 days before he decided to book a ticket. So the idea that he was going home to see his baby girl is laughable.

4. You don’t have a clue what the AFP knows, only what they put before the court. Knowing and proving are two different things. It seems you are happy to believe everything Haneef says, without question

5. The fact that only one person died is a testament to the terrorists ineptness, not to their intent, which was clearly to do as much damage as possible

Runawake,

That secular country that didn’t have sharia law had a dictator who managed to kill or intimidate anyone who didn’t agree with him. He had fathers watch as their daughters were raped. He had Alsatians tear apart the babies of Senior Staff who angered him. His sons tortured and killed the members of the soccer team when they performed badly. This was Saddams way of conducting gov’t.

My hatred of the Islamo-fascists stems from their targeting of innocents civilians for maximum impact. I don’t see any problem with hating these evil people, the fact that you don’t says more about you, than it does about me

So Marilyn, all the other bombing ‘victims’ are to be ignored…figuratively speaking? There’ve been thousands-upon-thousands of bombing victims…Haneef’s ‘distant’ cousin is a-close-enough-cousin to give him his sim card…I’m very fond of my cousins but I don’t give them my sim cards and I know they aren’t in the back shed making bombs…

Who cares if the British wanted him? You’re ignoring the Indian police interest in him…he’s left himself open to question on the sim-card-loan and e-mail issues, amongst others…he left HIMSELF open to suspicion, whether-through-guilt-or-stupidity-remains-to-be-seen…they had significant reasons to arrest him and investigate him further.

As for media…Russo, his ‘loose-lipped’barrister and Haneef’s family were the real media tarts in all this…who’re you kidding…no-one played the media card more than the Haneef camp, including ‘alleged-media-payments-for-interviews’.

RE: ‘Keeting-appointee’-Mick Keelty, now there’s a case of trial by leftist-media, if ever I saw one…I wonder what would happen if he was just allowed to do the job we’re paying him for, instead of responding to leftist, bleeding-heart propaganda against him, as an authority figure…did your mother oppress you too, Marilyn?

If, as you say, they ‘lied in court’…then they would be sued or subjected to perjury charges…the consequences of which are significant. You should choose your words more carefully or you might be considered a liar also with your careless use of the facts or dribbling-verbal-fiction.

Again I ask, would you consider it preferable for Haneef to have been treated as his cousin and co. might have treated their ‘captives’ or ‘victims’ of interrogation at some stage…?

…remember, if you were picked up by one of his cousins, the punishment might be beheading, slowly, while being filmed to send proof to your family…nothing to be afraid of, huh? I guess Australia’s methods of interrogation are still preferable to the methods Haneef might have ‘enjoyed’ if he were an Australian being ‘interrogated’ by his 'distant-cousins' or, who knows what part he may have played himself, given the chance…

There are still flights to Nirvana, Marilyn…although I don’t see the same hoards LEAVING Australia as there are FLEEING your leftist or facist-Islamic regimes…

(tbc...)

(Cont…)

Yes, ruawake, I know that my relatives aren’t making bombs…or involved in terrorism…don’t you?

If Martians invaded Townsville or Perth, I guess it would be immaterial what I would do, even if I was there…but you can bet I won’t bomb or behead them for just visiting as tourists or itinerant workers…and then send a video to their Mums and Dads!

…actually ruawake, I would say that your attitude displays hatred…not mine…I’m a realist, Haneef has been treated reasonably, by any reasonable person’s standards…and certainly better than I would be under the same circumstances in his country.

…actually, as a woman…I’d be treated worse than him under almost ANY circumstances in his country. I have family friends who are third generation (Indian) Australians, who would agree the standards in India on MOST things would not be acceptable here.

I don’t hate my country or its people, including its government…who I did not vote for, incidentally! You, on the other hand display a distinct aversion to this country and anyone of authority in it…especially those of the opposing political views to you…now there’s a great basis for arguing a case? …spare us your political ‘wisdom’.

ruawake? ..more like rua-wake up!

Paul.L…RE: Lenin’s ‘useful idiots’…we know what happens to those idiots when they are no longer ‘useful’ to such extremist elements…one would think they’d ‘learn the lessons of history’…?

You have succinctly addressed the issues well, as usual Paul.L and I agree that anyone who does not share revulsion at the evil barbarism and despicable sadism that is at the root of the terrorism ‘industry’ world-wide is as much a part of the problem as the terrorists themselves. It seems they conveniently believe Haneef’s ‘innocence’ but abhor any attempt by security forces to ensure the safety of the community…including the ‘innocent Haneef’s’ who reside here…curious isn’t it? …or is it predictable?

...I still can't understand why those who hate this country and its democratic system so much are still here...they could apply for refugee status in India since they feel so oppressed here...or hop on a one-way-ticket...just a thought... :)

Meg

Time for a slice of fruit cake I think. :)

Liz
I have complete confidence that Australia will NEVER become a nation where the citizens are fearful for their personal safety. The reasons why is that we, as a general population have a belief system that is basically respectful of life - the life of a child, man or woman regardless of race is sacred. Australia`s laws and constitution are all based on a christian set of values with a democratic political system that has existed since we landed here.....(I know the aboriginals were here before us but that is a whole other argument which has no bearing on my point)


Whilst the democratic system is still in place we will never have any problems....I mean, how many people do you know would vote for an Islamic Fundamentalist in your electorate? ...we are not going to vote for a person who could threaten our way of life...so the only way this could happen is if the government was overthrown by invasion of another entity - the only way to stop this is to be very very protective of our country physically and to make sure that the people we allow to live here hold the same basic values we do.

You could argue that under this belief system we did not treat aboriginals with the same respect we did ourselves - that is very true, however, because of who we are we have evolved and we now understand and respect the differences between different cultures and races. This tolerance doesnt seem to exist in some of the extreme Islamic sectors - they tend to blow you up if you have a different religion.

If you are doing nothing wrong than you will be fine....we CANNOT allow any people with any active links with terrorism to settle in Australia - dont care if they are just an aquaintance or a relation - if are seriously wanting to seek refuge in Australia because you are fearful of your personal safety than why on earth would you continue to communicate with the people who represent the very thing you are fleeing from?

Who needs to bust a gut to protect Australia's legal system when we have Meg and Paul to step right in to investigate, charge, try and convict? Let's do away with this ridiculous system full of lawyers and barristers. Sharia law should be implemented straight away. O no, that's what we're fighting terrorists for. Whatever you think is best then Meg and Paul.

The rest of us can relax, sip port, chardonnay, latte and do bleeding heart good deeds.

Australia makes some of the best Chardonnay by the way. Some right wing fascists may want to try it. Once they've cleaned up the country of course. Wonder if anybody who the Meg's and Paul's approve of will be left to tend the vineyards?

ruawake, it’s too late…you’ve-eaten-all-the-fruit-cake…or perhaps something e-l-s-e?

izzo, good points…

Yvonne, I see lots of loonier-left-and-bleeding-heart in your posts, but doubt you’ve much interest in the good-deed-bit…I haven’t convicted anyone, nor has Paul.L…but as you continue to ignore…Dr Haneef has placed himself under suspicion because of a number of repeatedly-andclearly-made-points…re-read the posts for a clue…

Dr Haneef had a choice…his bomb-making-rellies or his ‘new’ Australian brothers and sisters…he made the choice and now he gets to stay with his rellies…good luck to him!

As for vineyards…you won’t see any of your leftist fraternity tending them either…too much like hard work…that’s left to those poor, farmers who the port-or-chardonnay-sipping-‘elite’ like to keep in their place by paying them like peasants so they never really own their land…and therefore can't upset the ‘leftist’ plan.

Again, the real and present danger to our democracy are the loonies who abuse the responsibility and duty-of-care to their fellow countrymen/women…under the guise of all this bonhomie bs…conveniently forgetting the bombs and beheadings, the mutilations, the torture, the abuse of women as a way of life…need I go on? Our standards may indeed be lowering, Yvonne…not because of colour or race…but because of the lack of respect for others…the lack of respect ingrained in some so-called ‘faiths’e.g.,Islamic or political 'bents' like yours…even the moderateIslamics find the fanatical fringe more than they can stomach…what does that tell you? Would you like to see women burnt on a regular basis in Australia when men find another floozie on the side…and then burn her in turn when he's sick of her or she upsets him? Well the Indians have a tendency to do that or at the very least, to ignore the murders when they frequently happen…

Wake up and smell the roses, before they’re all bombed out from under you…

As for the legal system...you're mistaking 'protecting the legal system' with protecting the legal 'critters' that scurry about in it...not all of whom are especially wholesome themselves as events repeatedly have proven...

Yvonne, It all very nice and easy to call me and Meg facists, I’m sure it would suit your sad world view for it to be so. I am not a Fascist, never have been. I don’t belong to any far right political groups. I don’t hate people of any race or colour.

My argument and I think Megs as well, is that our system has worked roughly as it was supposed to. I don’t maintain that Haneef was definitely guilty. I do think his actions were highly suspicious and I am amazed at the number of people who are willing to believe his every word. The number of people who have declared Haneef innocent, based upon his own testimony is scarcely believable.

The legal system worked as it was supposed to. When not enough evidence could be produced, the prosecutors dropped their case.

As for the executive action of Minister Andrew, I approve of his decision as well. As a non-citizen, Haneef had no right to stay in Australia. He was accepting our hospitality. The right to a visa is not an inalienable right.

I think it is reasonable that no-one with links to terrorism should have a visa to come to our country. Just because a court case couldn’t prove Haneef’s guilt beyond all reasonable doubt ,doesn’t mean he should retain his visa. Our visa holders should be beyond reproach. There is no need to take a risk on Dr Haneef. There are plenty of good candidates for visa’s who are turned down merely because of quota restrictions. I don’t see you hopping up and down about these people.

Regarding your hilarious quote about doing away with the solicitors etc I think you have something there, blood sucking parasites they are. I think our legal system needs protection from the massive oversupply of solicitors and barristers coming out of our universities.

It always amazes me the number of western feminists who, safe in their own little world, are loath to criticize Islam as they have western patriarchies. It stinks of hypocrisy.

Meg and Paul, let's get away from the left vs right name calling.

By the way Meg, the lefties want the rich to share their loot with the peasants silly and elitism is a dirty word.

If Dr Haneef was suspected of murdering your entire family he would not have been allowed to be held for such a long time in detention without any charges being laid. He would not have lost his visa until after the court case. That is at issue. Suspects of criminal acts are treated according to our long standing principles. It applies even to people we don't like.

This issue is not about a popularity poll for Dr Haneef. I don't know the man and neither do you. Can you explain to me why your opinion of his character bears more weight than mine? Because of what you read in the papers? Because of what a cornered minister says?

Personally, I trust our courts and our legal system more, no vested interests, they don't care about popularity polls or financial gain. (please note I mention the system as a whole, not litigating lawyers) Ministers want to win the next election. Newspapers will say whatever is going to sell the most.

A working democracy and a politically free justice system does not come about by accident, or because we're nice Western Christian people. In the late 1920's the educated citizens of a nice Western Christian democracy were made frightened enough to hand over all sorts of rights for 'protection'. After all, if you were honest you had nothing to fear right? It would never apply to you.

What is it that you think we should treasure, guard and fight for? It is our political and personal freedom with a Westminster system of government, right?

We are being made so afraid of another to the point that we are OK with modifications of long standing legal and political principles. This leaves us vulnerable to abuse by those we put into positions of power. Like before in Germany, it does not happen overnight, but slowly, steadily

Yvonne...'lefties-want-the-rich-to-share-their-loot-with-the-peasants-silly-and-elitism-is-a-dirty-word' In theory that's so, but take a look at the reality of their own lives...not much sharing going on there, and elitist is just how many of them are living, leaving lawns unmowed doesn't make them environmentalists either, Yvonne...re-read some of the posts on this thread alone...the arrogance of the leftist postings is laughable: the rest of humanity shouldn't have a say it seems...there's only one way to think? ...only facist Germany was barbaric? Leftist 'sharing'in reality for poor, black African countries is enforced population control policies of China (at the very least) or worse...no choice or democracy there...not much humanity happening either.

RE: 'people-we-don't-like', speak for yourself...I don't know, nor dislike Haneef...I simply argue that the leftists, facists or whoever makes up his fan club are kidding themselves that he's hard done by and I ask the question: Did you kick up a fuss when Lindy Chamberlain or Pauline Hanson were incarcerated? The courts found them innocent and I'll bet you weren't fussing about their legal or other rights being compromised.

RE: 'not about a popularity poll for Dr Haneef' 'why your opinion of his character bears more weight than mine?'

You wouldn't know it judging from his fan club's efforts and no-one's suggested that anyones opinion has any more bearing...just that your efforts to 'popularise' him rather than allow the evidence to be examined is more about your political bent than his innocence or guilt.

RE: Courts & legal system - 'no-vested-interests,-they-don't-care-about-popularity-polls-or-financial-gain' No, the legal system is PERFECT and no one in it would sully their hands with financial reward or vested interests...it's just the media and pollies that are grubby little money-makers...off you go to Alice's tea party, yvonne and write to Santa, it's nearly Christmas.

'A-working-democracy-and-a-politically-free-justice-system-does-not-come-about-by-accident'

...true and just look at how both the left-and-right have taken freedom or democracy from people...through stelth and deceit...argue the facts, present the evidence and allow the truth to surface yvonne...Haneef made himself a suspect, noone else. He is free, not rotting in some islamic jail or lying in a ditch, headless.

(tbc...)

(Con't...)

I think we 'should-treasure,-guard-and-fight-for' the democracy and freedom that gives us the right to continue living without undue risk that will happen to him should he return...ditto for the rest of us. I'm not afraid of Haneef while he's dealt with as he was, it's if he's allowed to flout the law because he's Islamic, white, black, leftist, facist...or anything else that creates problems with our freedom, etc. He made poor choices regarding his 'terrorist' associations, he gave up his right-to-remain-and-freely-associate until it was confirmed he wasn't a threat to others...just as a murder suspect or any other suspect does.

...incidentally, I wish you luck with the 'politically free justice system', it certainly doesn't exist here. Let's examine who appoints the heirachy of legal system...hmmmm.

Interesting that you only ever quote Germany, now a democracy...not China, still a living hell for most of its population with NO FREEDOM for many who still risk being incarcerated and their body parts sold for transplant because of their beliefs or politics. But you're not a leftist, are you? Not one eyed?

Meg,
I am left on some issues and conservative on others. Pretty centre really like most Aussies I reckon.

I'm very, very conservative where tinkering with our legal and political systems are concerned.

For your information: I thought the way Lindy Chamberlain was treated was unbelievably shameful. Yes, I voiced my opinion to whomever was willing to listen. It showed just how dangerous it is 'to like' or 'dislike' somebody suspected of a crime. Her case proves my point actually.

Ditto Pauline Hanson. Ditto the Qld magistrate, I forget her name just now. Ditto the policeman in the Palm Island saga. It demonstrates how dangerous it is when politicians start meddling in the judicial process.

So, did you think Pauline Hanson hard done by or was it OK? Do you agree with what happened to the police sergeant in the Palm Island affair? Or are they different to Dr Haneef? Charges where actually laid against the former two. That wasn't even managed with Dr Haneef.

You get so heated up about the 'left' wing 'enemy' that you are not even willing to consider if there is a point to be made. Why would somebody who thinks what happened to Dr Haneef is worrying automatically be 'left' wing?

Yvonne,

Your willingness to compare Australia with fascist Germany shows how biased you really are.

Your argument that police states creep up on democratic peoples who aren’t careful about personal freedoms is fallacious. Fascists Germany didn’t just happen. I totally dispute your interpretation that the Germans were scared and therefore they gave up their democratic rights. The german people voted overwhelmingly for a candidate who made it very clear he hated Jews and blamed them for all of Germanys post ww1 problems. They wanted lebensraum, they wanted a strong, influential, wealthy, Germany whose national honour had been regained after their disaster at Versailles.

Britain had far more extreme laws during the 70’s and 80’s to combat the IRA, including internment, diplock courts, shoot to kill etc. Yet Britain didn’t descend into fascism/dictatorship.

There is a reason judges don’t make the law, Yvonne. Its because they are not representatives of the public. That role is set aside for parliament, whom we elect.

Its all well and good to have a Westminster system etc, but it isn’t much use if we have all been irradiated by a dirty bomb, or are victims of some biological weapon. The highest freedom, Yvonne, and the one most worth fighting for, is the right to continue living.

It is totally irrelevant to suggest that a murderer would have spent less time in detention. Terrorism has the ability to affect thousands or even tens of thousands in one incident. These people are at war with us, treating them as criminals is insane.

Yvonne said “We are being made so afraid of another…” Did the US gov’t blow up the twin towers? Was Howard responsible for Bali? What about 7/7?

I can’t believe you can be so carefree about people who are out to kill as many civilians as they can. I wonder if you would feel the same if the terrorists only wanted to rape women instead. My bet is you would be screaming for tanks on every street corner.

If you really believe that terrorism is not a threat, maybe you should visit ground zero.

Paul.L has left little to add, save to say that I was as vociferous in my defence of all of the people you mentioned (despite not voting for or particularly liking PH)as I am now in arguing that Dr Haneef was treated entirely appropriately given the risk he posed and his close association with known terrorists. How about you? Did you post on OLO to all and sundry, did you argue with your leftist colleagues over a port or chardonnay that they should picket in support of PH outside of the prison where she was to be strip searched in order to speak to her family? (not Dr Haneef, I might add).

Paul.L has given a good example of the murderous carnage that these poor excuses for humanity attempted to cause, Dr Haneef was closely associated with his cousin (giving him a sim card makes him VERY CLOSE in my book), therefore I consider he is of significant danger to many, until proven otherwise...an unreasonable risk to others and to himself... I notice you didn't offer to line up first to be treated by Haneef should we have the misfortune to have him grace our shores in the future...

Paul.L suggested you visit ground zero, my suggestion is that you take a leaf out of Haneef's book and buy a one way ticket to join him in India. A few days of 'freedom' as an Indian 'woman' should make you R-E-A-L-L-Y appreciate Australia. The grass may well LOOK greener elsewhere, but careful it isn't really just the scum or algae rising to the top of a pond.

Meg, I rarely drink port or Chardonnay. I prefer Shiraz. What do you drink?

I'll tell you a little of my background.

My entire family hails from Europe. Continental Europe. My mother's family spent 4 years in concentration camps. One of my grandmothers was raped as was an aunt by invaders. Do either of you have experience with concentration camps or rape?

I was born and grew up in socalled third world countries. Both in South America and West Africa. I have lived in some politically volatile countries, where the law was a bit of an arbitrary matter. Depended a bit on the relevant minister. All elected of course.

During the 70's when the PLO was active and other terrorist groups, when passenger planes were hijacked at the drop of a hat, I well remember the security checks, the airports with army tanks and soldiers.

I was living and working in London during the 80's, when the IRA was very active. Probably because the British have dealt with terrorists on their own soil for a long time they are less prone to hysteria.

As for the Twin towers, without a doubt a horrendous act which cost many, many lives left barely a blip on our global economic juggernaut. If you want to visit places like ground Zero, also visit Pearl Harbor, Dachau, the endlessly stretched out burial grounds in Europe where allied soldiers are buried.

And Paul, I never compared Australia with fascist Germany. I greatly doubt your assertion that you spent much time at all studying or reading much of anything at any university. The history of Germany I didn't read in little English history books. It is personal living history to me.

I doubt that either of you have any remote experience of what it is to live in a non-democratic nation. That is why you can be so cavalier about our freedoms. Especially when threatened we must have courage and show that we know our way of government and law are the best.

First we have the Left speaking out, now we got the extreme right speaking out.

Bush and Howard did not play a role in 911. But which nation has been guilty of War Crimes in Iraq, the USA. I did not hear the government cry out and say they should be brought before the International Court of Justice.

Who stuffed up the Haneff case? How did one person managed to get through Security at one of our major airports without his luggage been check?

Yes we have a right to afraid not only of Terrorist, but been protected by our Government.

VERY, very, well put Yvonne.

Meg1, Your invective bile is bordering on hysteria. You may hold your views, but your vicious attacks on those who beg to differ are becoming somewhat galling.

Having just 'discovered' this thread I look for to a prolonged and meaningful discussion with you.

VERY, very, well put Yvonne.

Meg1, Your invective bile is bordering on hysteria. You may hold your views, but your vicious attacks on those who beg to differ are becoming somewhat galling.

Having just 'discovered' this thread I look forward to a prolonged and meaningful discussion with you.

No, Australia is not fascist Germany.

But then before the shadow fell over Germany it was thought of as the New Jerusalem by it's Jewish citizens (Ref; Amos Elon).

These things can happen fast and with economic disruption, faster.

As concerned, interested, citizens all- should we not strive to educate ourselves to be the kind of people that make such a happening an impossibility in our land?

What alarms me is that Germany was a country full of fine people and yet we have only a handful - (Sophie Scholl's gang, that Lutheran priest, Army group center command, maybe others)- of resisters.

Imagine oneself in Germany 1933.

What is your next move?
Go along to get along?
Or Hitler's Holiday camp? just a thought exercise

Having said all that, the only problem I have with the "pursuit of terrorists" is a strategy that breeds them and does not infiltrate and capture them.

So exactly where is Ben Laden?

My message to the extreme right is simple.

So any person who has a family member, unknown to them, who is involved in Terrorist Actives shall be deported back to his country of birth. Whether such a person is a permanent resident or here on a visa.

So that is what you are saying and you not only call that protecting the Australian People but you also call that Justice.

southerner, Haneef’s rellie (with-the-sim-card-which-his-wife-probably-didn’t-even-have) is a terrorist, if he gave him a sim card, I imagine he had an inkling of his ‘secret-terrorist-business-in-the-back-shed’…or-he’s-a-moron…you-choose.

He wasn’t an Aussie citizen, he had a visa…Rule 1-behave or go home…simple…should we be held responsible for his relationship with terrorist cousins or stupidity with a sim card? …Could you re-read your posts before submitting so they actually make sense?

Having travelled in Israel in the ‘70’s, Jellyback, I wonder if leadership on either side of the conflict has advanced any…or wants to. Horrific and barbaric massacres have been perpetrated in many nations of the world not-just-Germany…left-and-right,-extremists-all...who are living on ‘hand-me-down-hatred’ and refuse to believe there’s any common ground or good in the other side…it’s all about extreme politics or greed/money/power…combinations of all 3.

Ginx…you’re running-around-in-circles-repeating-yourself and showing your own political bent…sadly you’ve described your own intolerance for anyone who isn’t of your ilk. In your hysterical frenzy you’ve posted the same dribble twice…as if once wasn’t enough…please wipe your chin.

My answer, Yvonne is Yes, I have friends and extended family who had escaped from occupied parts of Europe during and after the war and also assisted escapees during the war. I have no desire to play one upmanship with you on line, you haven’t a clue what other people’s experiences or endurance has been…don’t be so arrogant or ignorant as to presume to know. My husband also employed a Ukranian man who had seen his father taken and his mother bayoneted in front of he and his sister because she pleaded for him to be spared…he left his sister and escaped though still only very young, his sister was too afraid to go with him. He tried to contact her many times afterwards but never heard from her again. I have family in Europe too, Yvonne…that doesn’t ensure total understanding of the present situation any more than the next person. One would think you’d have learned the lessons of history therefore, before aligning yourself with leftist bandwagons or any other political bent...so blindly. Hitler’s power depended on such blind obedience too

"Ginx…you’re running-around-in-circles-repeating-yourself and showing your own political bent…sadly you’ve described your own intolerance for anyone who isn’t of your ilk. In your hysterical frenzy you’ve posted the same dribble twice…as if once wasn't enough…please wipe your chin." (Quote:Meg1)

Stay as sweet as you are Meg...

I repeated my post because I knew you would not understand unless I did so..
Besides; I feel that such pearls of wisdom are enhanced by duplication..

I was right! Even the system approved! I got a lovely message telling me that my post/s were so profound; so compelling, that they needed time to sink into your psyche, and thus I need not post for another 24 hours..., or something like that.

Isn't that lovely!! I do so love it when genius is recognised...

Now Meg; you-must-not-go-getting-yourself so-upset. Posting-connected-text-AND-UPPERCASE-WILL-NOT-MAKE-YOUR-RAMBLING-DIRGES.....any-less-silly-than-they-are.

How sad to see the 'lap-dog' mentality of those who are so meekly obedient in accepting the pap that is fed to them by the Murdoch media, and St.Howard and his Regime.

I know it is difficult for you to grasp; you are too busy spitting venom;-but there ARE those who can actually think for themselves, and who are painfully aware that it is people that think like yourself, who will inevitably lead this Country into disaster.

Any attack on this Country ( and we both know that your hell-fire and brimstone approach is not just directed at Haneef), will come because people who think like yourself continue to see that the only way to extinguish a fire is to throw petrol on it.

In your blind espousal of the politics of hatred, I sometimes wonder if you people actually WANT an attack and casualties; just to prove your point!

Well,-I-and-many,-many,-others-will-continue-to-oppose-that-venomous-approach.

WHETHER-YOU-LIKE-IT-OR-NOT.

GINX...here is a little bone to chew on..... I'd love to know your view of this vid.. is it 'Murdoch' press at work again ?

Are the testimonies of the moderate Muslims 'made up/inventions' ?

Or..is it possible that you blokes simply don't 'see' with seeing eyes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPvuAg4HjI

Assessing the Haneef case is difficult for those with limited information, (ie. 'us') and those of us who like to 'think' we are privvy to the full picture are delusional. It's so predictable that those who rapaciously bite the AFP over this, do so from ignorance of all available information, and thus, are 'bigoted' :)

MEG1.... I see your passion young JediWarrior :)

if ur looking for an outlet for all that which can take a more 'practical' form.. (if ur not already involved with something)

by all means email me at newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au and I'll give you a couple of contacts which might be of interest to you.

Something is coming up on 9/11 (protest/public event)

Cheers
BD

Thanks yvonne for putting the problem into context. It will be sad if we look back at this period as "The Time we Lost our Freedom", thanks to the self-interest of politicians and the gullibility of us lerts.

And just for the record, Ginx, the reason Meg1 adds all those hyphens is not to add any emphasis, but to fool the OLO word counter, which otherwise would stop her at 350, the limit that the rest of us adhere to. I have found that it is a device used by the less coherent contributors, by the way. Keep an eye out for it, see if you find the same.

Boaz, you really need to drag yourself away from YouTube, it is beginning to rule your life. News items like this - and I thought that this particular one did a reasonable job, although it became a little repetitive - are structured to highlight two sides of a situation of interest to their audience.

But it is up to you Boaz, to tell us what your conclusion from it was, don't make us guess.

Did you think "ah, this is a terrible situation, the government should act immediately to...", at which point we could legitimately ask "what?"

Or did you think "this is a problem that affects only those who differ in their interpretation of Islam, and since I am not a Muslim, I don't need to worry about it"? In which case I would ask, why draw our attention to it at all?

Or perhaps there is an interpretation of another kind? Do let us know. Were you trying to make a point about biased reporting? Religious violence in Canada?

>>Or..is it possible that you blokes simply don't 'see' with seeing eyes?<<

I saw, Boaz, but I still don't understand why you pointed it out to us, so yes, perhaps I don't have "seeing eyes".

So please explain to me what I saw.

Thanks Pericles; sneaky eh?

"GINX...here is a little bone to chew on..... I'd love to know your view of this vid.. is it 'Murdoch' press at work again ?" (Quote:BOAZ)

How many times?

How many times do I have to tell you? See what I mean about repeating a post? How long is it going to take to get through to you that I will not follow the agenda you set.

ANYBODY with your views who tells me to view links of THEIR choice to prove THEIR point can whistle Dixie. Won't do it. Won't do it also because I have learned in the time I've been here, that engaging with someone of the Ultra Religious Right is akin to nissing into the pind. Nah!

URR's are the epitome of hypocrisy and double standards.

I do like a nice juicy bone to chew on, though.., of MY choice.

Meg,

I feel depressed by the thought of the opinions you have expressed and the experiences you have alluded to in the last paragraph of your last post.

Personal political experiences in my family and myself has developed into a particular strong aversion to extreme political agendas, of any ilk whatsoever, AND the tampering/modifying by politicians of long standing successful justice systems. As I said before, I am far more conservative than you are were these matters are concerned.

The extreme political climate in the early 20th century in educated Europe that resulted in conflagration did not happen overnight. Peoples were made to be very, very afraid. Today we are being made equally afraid. So afraid that many really believe that the destruction of our Western political system and economy is imminent.

It is, but not by terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, but by ourselves. We are being made to doubt our own systems of government and justice. Why are we so easily persuaded of the inadequacy and decadence of these? Are the terrorists right after all? By some of the slurs that have been flung by some it seems there is agreement on this.

Since 2001, when terrorists hit at the heart of the American economic power and the seat of government, the Pentagon, what exactly has really changed? The global economy-nothing.

But we have been coerced into a brutal and ugly war with little forethought about the possible consequences that is increasingly being used as a rallying point to bring down the 'inadequate and decadent West'. By some of our own actions we are giving credence to what the terrorists are saying. We don't really believe in our justice systems ourselves.

That's why when we deal with a terrorist suspect we should be as scrupulous about our legal principles as when we deal with any other suspect.

Yvonne, You are supremely arrogant. You have no idea at all what I did or didn’t do at university and your speculation is amusing but self-indulgent.

I don’t care if you are the sole surviving member of the Russian royal family. How does any of your history give you greater moral authority to speak on the issues than anyone else? Being there only ever makes you an expert on what you saw. Nothing else

Debate my ideas. I post them here and not some place where everyone agrees with me because I think ideas are important. Calling into question my education or my experience is cheap and easy but totally irrelevant. It is always the first port of call, however, when someone disagrees with you but can’t find the words to articulate their thoughts.

Funnily enough Yvonne, what most disturbs ME is your cavalier attitude towards our GREATEST freedom. The right to continue living. Do you deny that terrorists would unleash a biological or nuclear agent upon innocent civilians if they had the opportunity? People like you will only wake up if you find a dirty bomb under your Christmas tree.

Your contention that we are on the slippery slope to a fascist state is nothing short of shrill alarmism. I can point to hundreds of terror attacks across the world, limited in scope only by the imagination and weapons of the terrorists. You can point to haneef, who is now home with his family in India, probably practising medicine.

When you say things like”.. Since 2001, when terrorists hit at the heart of the American economic power and the seat of government, the Pentagon, what exactly has really changed?”

It seems to me that you don’t care that it might happen again. Or at best, that you don’t think changes were needed to prevent a recurrence. Those who wail about our lost freedoms but are silent in the face of real evil in the world leave me cold.

The salafist/facists can ONLY win by using the soft left against the rest of us. Currently it is working

Paul, build a bunker. Stock pile it with water and food. When the nuclear/biological bomb has gone off you can come out and the terrorists and the 'shrill alarmists' about our slide down the 'slippery slope' will all be gone. You'll have the place to yourself.

I do not want to live in a nation reminiscent of China, or Nth Korea, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Zimbabwe. That scares me much, much more than bombs of any kind or any kind of terrorist attack, horrendous as they are. I will fight to continue living in a free democratic and secular society where the separation of powers, the independence of the judiciary are held as high ideals not to be meddled with.

The right to continue living under any circumstances is all yours. You mentioned the raping of women by terrorists. Hey, they'll at least be alive you know. So what's your problem with rape then?

Thanks for your observation of the irrelevance of my experiences and education versus the superiority of yours. Now I know that your are petrified of dying I understand where you are coming from.

Yvonne you are clearly flailing about now.

I never said my experience/education was superior to yours. I said your experiences don’t make you more of an expert than anyone else. It was you who claimed exclusive ownership of the facts.

As I’ve said, I have evidence to back up my fear that terrorists will kill as many innocent civilians as they can. They have already started. Your best case to prove your point is Haneef, who was sent home to his wife and family.

Again you compare Australia with dictators and tyrants. You say you have lived under totalitarian rule, yet you make these preposterous statements about one of the most free countries on Earth.

The Chinese execute more people than any other country on the planet. North Korea has millions of its people in prison camps, including all the extended family of the alleged dissident. In Iran, men throw acid in the faces of women who are not wearing a veil. Mugabe has terrorised his country, killing or jailing anyone who gets in his way. But we are the same as these people because we told Haneef to go home. Really

I am not petrified of dying Yvonne. I do, however worry for my daughter.

I detest rape. My point was that for feminists like yourself, terrorism would be a FAR BIGGER deal if the perpetrators weren’t killing people but were raping them. My point was, that if that was the case, there would be tanks on every corner and all men would be suspects.

The soft-lefts hatred of America is so strong that they are prepared to put other innocents at risk, rather than be seen as participating in the war on terror. Some are so far in denial that they will tell you with a straight face that terrorism isn’t a problem. It’s a gov’t construct to make us fearful so they can take away our rights and turn the west into a fascist dictatorship. Such people are still looking for UFOs and believe the Americans faked the moon landing. GET REAL

'My point was that for feminists like yourself, terrorism would be a FAR BIGGER deal if the perpetrators weren’t killing people but were raping them.'
Paul, how on Earth did you come to the above two conclusions?

And where exactly did I compare Australia to totalitarian dictatorships? If you still did not get my point I'll explain it again.

A free and democratic society like Australia does not just happen. We do not live in this society just by accident. It takes the will of the people to keep it so. It takes the vigilance of the citizens to keep it so. If you think this view irrelevant than you do not understand how a democratic nation like Germany became a fascist nation.

We are responding to an article not about Haneef the man himself, but about the law that was used in his case and the use of executive powers. It is about principles, processes and procedures.

It is simply not relevant whether any of us are emotionally attached to Haneef the good guy or Haneef the terrorist. We have Courts of law to determine the guilt or non-guilt of criminals.

Are you comfortable with ministers seemingly interfering with the legal process? It seems to be occurring more frequently lately. Not only in this case

'soft-left'. You seem to like your invention Paul, but it is a little repetitious..

'hatred of America'? Can I suggest you look a little closer to Americans themselves. They don't have a 'hatred of America'; but they do have a 'hatred' of their current Administration as do I, and many hundreds of thousand others.

Interestingly, some Republican's are slowly backing away from the central core....,are they 'soft-left' too?

“I do not want to live in a nation reminiscent of China, or Nth Korea, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Zimbabwe. “

That is where you compare Australia with totalitarianism. Later you suggest that unless we are hyper-vigilant we will fall into the clutches of fascism, just like Germany. It is highly mischievous of you to suggest that you were not drawing direct comparisons.

Again I dispute your simplistic assertion that Germany became a totalitarian state because the people weren’t careful about their freedoms. Totalitarianism is a German tradition. Von Hindenburg turned the Weimar Republic into an autocratic state in the late 20’s early 30”s. Totalitarianism was a basic tenet of the Nazi ideology. Germans wanted this type of strong leadership to pull them out of the depression and regain their honour after their stab in the back at Versailles. “Ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer” was the motto. To pretend people misunderstood what they were voting for is fanciful in the extreme.

I don’t consider someone who comes to this country as a migrant and then assists in acts of terrorism a criminal. That person has committed treason and they do not deserve the same treatment as common criminals. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that Haneef is guilty. As far as I am concerned the court did their job. But the minister was also within his rights to cancel the visa of a person suspected of associating with terrorists.

If you don’t like ministerial discretion then vote for a party who will repeal it. Simple

Ginx

I can’t claim ownership of the term soft-left unfortunately, however I find it appropriate. Your and anyone else’s hatreds are irrelevant. I don’t care how many people like a particular idea.

That you would reserve your hatred for bush and co, and stay silent on people like Bin Laden, Hussein, Mugabe, Kim Jong il etc is a perfect example of what I mean when I say soft-left.

The soft-left care more about symbols than people. Like putting a higher price on saying ‘sorry’, than protecting a child from abuse.

"Von Hindenburg turned the Weimar Republic into an autocratic state in the late 20’s early 30”s."

Huh?

What have you been smoking?

"Ginx

I can’t claim ownership of the term soft-left unfortunately, however I find it appropriate. Your and anyone else’s hatreds are irrelevant. I don’t care how many people like a particular idea.

That you would reserve your hatred for bush and co, and stay silent on people like Bin Laden, Hussein, Mugabe, Kim Jong il etc is a perfect example of what I mean when I say soft-left.

The soft-left care more about symbols than people. Like putting a higher price on saying ‘sorry’, than protecting a child from abuse.
Posted by Paul.L, Monday, 20 August 2007 11:40:46 PM"

What a silly twisted boy you are Paul!

.................how do you KNOW WHAT my opinion is on the sorry bunch you are quoting?

You DON'T know because I have not discussed my views there at all...;
because I have followed the subject of this thread.

You 'don't care how many people like a particular idea'??

Really? Then why are you getting yourself so worked up?

( How interesting that the only name you did not credit with a capital;-was Bush....)

Jellyback, stick this in YOUR PIPE.

The administrations of Chancellors Brüning, Papen, Schleicher and Hitler were all Presidentially appointed dictatorships. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

Ginx,

We have all moved off the thread. Bush is not part of the thread yet you were happy to pass comment on his administration.

I am not worked up. If you want to see examples of me being worked up, review some of my comments to TAPP and BARFENZIE on other threads.

It’s typical of a soft-lefty that you would mention that I mis-capitalised a name. It just backs up what I said about the soft-left preferring style over substance.

You and Yvonne can pretend that opposition to Haneef is racially motivated. I know that simple minds have trouble with anything other than simple concepts. But I do not care that Hanneef is not white. I would be saying exactly the same thing about any foreigner associated with terrorists.

My point is that there are enough applicants for work visas to only take those who are beyond reproach. We do not need to take a chance on Haneef and we certainly don’t owe him, ( or anyone else), a work visa. A work visa is a privilege, not a right.

"The administrations of Chancellors Brüning, Papen, Schleicher and Hitler were all Presidentially appointed dictatorships."

Gee, that would be like a Governor-General appointing a Prime Minister or ruling with emergency powers.

So the democratically elected president of the Reichsweir appointed a president.

Compare that to the undemocratically elected John Kerr sacking the elected Gough Whitlam (like or loath)and appointing by decree Malcolm Frazer.

'You and Yvonne can pretend that opposition to Haneef is racially motivated.'

Paul, it is an intensely irritating habit of yours to ascribe opinions, beliefs or positions to others without any supporting evidence.

"I know that simple minds have trouble with anything other than simple concepts." (Quote:PaulL)

I KNOW you know Paul...., that's glaringly apparent.

I am responding to YOUR posts. Thus, it was YOU who raised the 'America' thing to me; likewise the 'Bush' thing.

I know I have style. I like style. Thank-you for the compliment.

Substance on the other hand, appears to be your rather weird obsession with the term "soft-lefty". As is the need to prove your 'substance' by having me look at your venom to other posters on other threads.

Try to get out more. Being obsessive and embittered is so unhealthy.

Ginx, you may as well post the same dribble again-and-again-and-again, because none has any more substance than your last one anyway. Your delusional assessment of the 2-per-24hr-postings-applicable-to-all, confirms your degree-of-confusion or delusions-of-grandeur!

BOAZ_David correctly notes that NONE of us know the facts regarding Haneef, we do know the AFP didn’t randomly ‘pick-him-off-the-street’ as his barbaric-terrorist-bombing-cousins do. I concur with his assessment of the situation. David, I have been in a hospital-emergency-ward with a sick rellie, so haven’t accessed e-mail – I’m overloaded with catch-up commitments at present also.

So Pericles says he wants to think for himself, then asks what to think when presented with material while Ginx admits she-he won’t look at anything except leftist-atheist propaganda, in case she-he sees something that disproves her-his propaganda! No surprises there…

yvonne…‘I am far more conservative than you are’…so, you’re an extremist? Again, no surprises there! ‘Today we are being made equally afraid’…you aren’t really serious? EQUAL to Hitler’s Germany? How much Shiraz?

Well said, Paul.L!

Ginx, you proved Paul’s points - you’ve much to say about Bush & Co, but NOTHING, by your own admission, to say about any of the sadistic, barbaric terrorists that Paul mentioned. Your hatred is of all-things-American, or as you state, .all-things-Bush! Let the Bin Ladens or Husseins, etc do their worst…you’re cool with it…ditto with local issues, demand a ‘sorry’ but don’t worry about abuses being perpetrated on children…that’s the soft (in-the-head) left argument.

Jellyback, John Kerr (Bless Him!) was appointed by the democratically elected government too, you’re flagellating again…

Yvonne…RE:attributing comments…re-read your posts…then re-tract the last one…I don’t support Sharia Law…but that didn’t stop you ‘attributing comments’ accusing me…

Ginx, you may aspire to ‘style’ rather than substance…that doesn’t mean you have it…you simply prefer the glitz and veneer…without any substance or worth. It’s also unhealthy to refuse to read FACTS on an issue for fear they’ll call into question your bigoted, leftist opinions. (_?_)

Paul.L, you’re to be admired for your patience and articulate explanations that even these simple-minded, soft-left folk should be able to grasp, if they weren’t so politically entrenched.

'ello Meg dear, So glad to see you back; now we can REALLY get started.

Yours is the dribble obsession; I do hope you can resolve that; perhaps a bib?

Next time when you go on the attack, could you coordinate your attacks on me into the one spot? I appreciate that with your views and your style (there's that word again!), you have so little time, and so much to disparage, so everything comes tumbling out in a kind of verbal diarrhea. Insults/compliments/insults/compliments/...

Rather like the Hard-Right (it does stand to reason, doesn't it?) philosophy. Intolerance here, insults there, bigotry here;...well you know;- it kind of all comes tumbling out in a jumbled mass.

Try to coordinate. Bunch your gang together, and shower them with compliments. Then bunch the objects of your hate together, and let fly with your trademark insults.

Glad you acknowledge my grandeur. I appreciate that. It isn't a delusion, though I suppose from your vantage point....? Don't look up for too long you'll strain your neck.

I SO look forward to talking to you.

Ginx…(_?_)

You really should get a life!

Are you being paid while you are producing this verbal diarrhoea? (Note correct spelling and punctuation…you should try it!) I sure hope not, because if my taxes are covering your (_?_) I’m not happy about that either…

‘delusions-of-grandeur’ isn’t a compliment, so file that away for later reference, you’ll probably hear it often in your lifetime…especially in YOUR lifetime.

I don’t hate anyone Ginx…not even Haneef, remember, he’s the actual subject of this thread…him and his terrorist rellies.

I hate what those Haneef rellies do and what their motives are…but I wouldn’t waste my valuable time and effort hating them, they aren’t worth it!

Just for reference, I have responded to each post in order, I guess that's too difficult for you to absorb all at once...will-I-say-it-more-s-l-o-w-l-y? If yours are all over the shop, I guess you have to put up with the relevant responses, just like we have to put up with your profuse and frequent ramblings.

RE: last comment, sorry that I can’t reciprocate…your garbled meanderings are really a pointless exercise to write and an even more pointless effort to read.

You might talk to someone about those 'delusions' that you're so proud of...it could be a REAL problem for you and whoever you think you are up there on that pedestal.

THAT is the type of post that you offer up as something superior?

I remain disgusted by your vicious attitude and downright nastiness to any who dares to disagree with you. I have chosen to humour you up to now, because your incessant vitriol cannot be taken seriously.

You attempt to ridicule me with your silly little illustration, and haven't even picked up on the fact that I knew full well what a 'delusion of grandeur' was; AND left it to you to spell diarrhoea correctly because I knew that YOU knew what diarrhoea was! You speak enough of it.

You were too unintelligent to see any of that; yet I made it so obvious..

I have reread this entire thread. You have been without doubt the rudest and nastiest poster here; even eclipsing your mate Paul.L

Has it even occurred to you that I would not even attempt to discuss Andrew Boes' article with anyone like you who cannot post on this topic without trying to crush and destroy others?

You are incapable of making ANY post without repeated reference to the 'Left'. What are you so afraid of?

I hold you and your like responsible for the parlous state Australia is now in. It is DIRECTLY the Howard Regime and it's blind silly followers that has led to an insurgence of the xenophobic attitudes that you seem to be so proud of. These are the politics of hate and division; and you Meg1 are a repellent practitioner of this.

I have said elsewhere that it is you and your like that will welcome a catastrophe to prove your sterile and vile point. YOU AND YOURS WILL BE THE CAUSE.

I am now done with humouring you. I will now respond to you, YOUR way for the duration; or until we are stopped. Whichever

Ginx did I hit a raw nerve asking if you were on paid-time while running off on your tirades? Hmmmm…

‘You are incapable of making ANY post without repeated reference to the 'Left'.(Ginx)

Refer to my last post to prove your comments are fallacies…I made no reference to the ‘left’ in my last post…I rest my case, point proved.

However, your verbal diatribe on Howard, etc…proved your politics yet again. Incidentally, if you have re-read the thread again, your comprehension skills need brushing up, as you would’ve read that I didn’t vote for Howard or any of the major parties…I guess it is clear who or what you voted for…Hmmm?

RE: Your spurious nonsense on spelling and grammar…do you even make sense to yourself? Really, (_?_) even you must be embarrassed to re-read that lot of ?

As for offering something superior…I’d prefer not to be the judge of that…let nature take its course, so to speak.

I can’t wait for you to respond as I do, it will certainly be an improvement to the fallacious bile you’ve poured out so far.

‘I have said elsewhere that it is you and your like that will welcome a catastrophe to prove your sterile and vile point. YOU AND YOURS WILL BE THE CAUSE.’ (_?_) Ginx

Gee Ginx, since it’s the terrorists that your ‘LEFTIE’ fan club supports that are doing all the bomb-making and brutalizing of innocent civilians, I’d say you’re as responsible as they are, not me. I don’t welcome Haneef or his rellies while they harbor such close rellies and financially support them or make excuses for them. Nor do I welcome ANY catastrophes or be-headings or bombings…I say leave Haneef at home with his wife and baby daughter to offer medical attention to the millions in his own country who need him.

His sincerity in wanting to be with his wife and baby daughter have been made abundantly clear by his recent media reports wanting to return to Australia…surprise, surprise!

You might like to wipe the egg off your face with that dribble-bib around your neck (_?_).

..............................

VERBAL diatribe? We are online??.....
Diatribe? Where??

No reference to Left. "I rest my case, point proven"!!
Whoa! a lawyer! That IS what they ALL say isn't it?.....sheesh.

ONE post. No reference to the Left. Gawd!

Petty illustrations again. The standard refuge of the intellectually challenged.

Fallacious bile? Thanks; clearly the opinion of an expert..

Leftie obsession now back.

..........as for 'bomb making, and brutalising innocent civilians'................Hello?? Anyone home?

Haneef? Just a justification for your racist rubbish.

Er?.....help HIS Country? WHEN he is qualified; which he can achieve here in Australia like any other foreign student. (Take THAT issue up with the Federal Government).
(Is it worth reminding you that his former employer is happy to have him back. THEY know him; YOU do not!)

Dribble/bibs/illustrations..........

And you attempt to tell ME about comprehension skills!!

Ginx (_?_), one doesn’t need to respond to your gibberish, you do a good enough job of decimating your own posts yourself.

You said…‘You are incapable of making ANY post without repeated reference to the 'Left'’…I didn’t even have to go further back than the previous post…again, since you’re obviously having difficulty with comprehension, point proven…not lawyer-speak, just a statement of fact, there wasn't any reference to the 'left' in that post...(_?_) inaccuracies exposed again.

‘..........as for 'bomb making, and brutalising innocent civilians'................Hello?? Anyone home?’

…so you’re denying these things happen?...or that Haneef’s cousin was involved with ‘bomb-making’ or wanted to brutalise innocent civilians through terrorist acts? …or do you consider that’s acceptable behaviour?

‘Er?.....help HIS Country? WHEN he is qualified; which he can achieve here in Australia like any other foreign student.’

(_?_)Ginx, he was working as a qualified doctor in the GC hospital, not a student, he’s probably practicing in India right now…get your facts in order occasionally.

’(Is it worth reminding you that his former employer is happy to have him back. THEY know him; YOU do not!)’

His ‘former employer’, i.e., Qld Health Dept. have yet to comment on his lack of termination notice on attempting to flee the country…they may-or-may-not be interested in re-employing him and at present haven’t offered to do so. Incidentally he has the obstacle of a valid visa to overcome before Australian re-employment is possible, so he probably shouldn’t book his passage just yet. …and YOU also do not…know him…

‘Haneef? Just a justification for your racist rubbish.’

Amongst the gibberish, what're you suggesting? You don’t make sense (worse than usual!) Leftist philosophies on black-and-or-developing nations and their populations generally are RACIST in-the-extreme, as is your support for those with terrorist connections having more rights than their victims or potential victims. Your Orwellian predisposition to ‘some being more equal than others’ is clearly racism at its most transparent.

Haneef's race isn't the issue, his possible terrorist involvement or intentions are...

…as for your ‘comprehension skills’…the answer’s yes, and the proof’s in your posts…there isn’t a coherent or accurate response amongst them…

"One does not need to respond to my gibberish"?

But you ARE responding....; to 'gibberish'. No surprise.

This is becoming tedious. What with your junior year legal terminology, and your total incapacity to grasp something as simple as why I referred to bomb-makers/brutalising innocent civilians....
Seriously? You actually cannot see what I meant?

Haneef is NOT fully qualified.

'...POSSIBLE terrorist involvement or intentions'
.........'..Orwellian predisposition to some being more equal than others'
.........'PROOF'S?? in your post'?

Now Meg; try and take this in...; there is no point in attempting a sensible dialogue with you. You are not picking up on simplest statements, and I have done my best to make these things simple enough for you to grasp.

So; unless you are able to post lucidly, without illustrations; Left obsession-(I rarely bother myself with the bigoted self-centred attitude of the Right),-and constant boiling anger. There is no point in trying to converse. Try to lift your game a little.

Goodness Ginx (_?_) you might need a cup of tea and a lie down after that little outburst…speaking of ‘constant boiling anger’, you need to settle down some…

Out of all your ‘gibberish’, just one lucid point – though inaccurate, was made…Haneef was employed as a doctor in the GC Hospital…he is a qualified doctor…hopefully his little adventure with the AFP has taught him to appreciate the responsibility and duty of care involved in that profession.

…right…left…more gibberish…just how much Shiraz was that?

Have a good nights sleep and you’ll feel better in the morning…maybe?

Meg

I assume you will not be visiting http://andrewsmustresign.com/

:)

MEEEEIIIIOOOWWWW! Are you so bored every night as you sit there sipping your poison ivy, that this is all you can manage?
( Check with Russo about Haneef's qualifications btw.)

".......the AFP has taught him to appreciate the responsibility and duty of care involved in that profession." (Quote:Meg)

Come now. The AFP have become so politicised that they are now bent out shape. It has impaired their efficiency so badly that they could not organise a biss up in a prewery!

Unsheath your claws other than at night time when you are clearly not at your most lucid.

AND POST SOMETHING INTELLIGENT!

Ruawake: Good link. Howard's lap-dog will sail through; they always do.

ruawake…who has so little to do with their time as to devote a website designed simply to denigrate someone? Of course! One of the clearly underworked, overpaid, leftists who have too little to do and too much time in which to do it.

I don’t vote for Minister Andrews and it isn't his opinions that I base my own on…no, I won’t be contributing to the hits on that site. In my opinion, Haneef’s visa was withdrawn and should have been under the circumstances…

…as for the AFP leadership, (_?_) Ginx, it was your leftist mate, Keating who appointed him, so he is responsible for any 'rot' that has set in due to that appointment.

…poison ivy is a PLANT, if you’re ‘sipping it’ that might explain a lot about your posts…might provide a clue to your ‘delusions of grandeur’ too.

RE: Haneef’s ‘qualifications’…he was employed as a doctor in the GC hospital…he may have been studying for further qualifications or to gain experience but he is a qualified doctor able to practice in India now…are you on commission with Russo? Ask Russo? …are you serious? …He can’t be that desperate for business, can he?

Take some deeeeep breaths, (_?_) Ginx and re-read your posts, not a great literary work or even basic information and statistical data in any…contribution value? -236 (out of a possible 10) I’m feeling generous there… : )

Have a nice, quiet day and keep away from the Shiraz and the 'poion ivy'...neither is doing you any good with your articulation, on line, or anywhere else, I suspect.

Miaow Meg; you're doing fine at understanding gibberish aren't you?

Poison Ivy can be made into a drink; which of course you know.

..................don't know about POION IVY though....

Come on, come on; it's getting boring correcting your mistakes.

POST INTELLIGENTLY. How many times do I have to tell you.......

Ginx....z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z....(_?_)

Finally! The potion worked!

Now can we get some peace, Miaow?

On who (_?_) Ginx? You've 'sipped' on the potion yourself...feeling better now? : ))

Go easy on that Shiraz...won't you...

But Miaow Meg; I thought you said "Poion" Ivy was a PLANT. It took sometime to get through (predictable), but you now stand corrected. Excellent!

I thought my posts are sending you to sleep?

Lets hear your excuse as to why you woke up. Can't have it both ways MM...............

I had a nightmare that you were continuing to post with poor grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc...(_?_) I woke to find it was true... : ( ...predictable...? Apparently so...

Have another sip and it may improve your comprehension skills and your other literary 'skills'...they can't get much worse!

Good luck, I've got a life to live...unlike you (_?_).

What do you mean you HAD a nightmare? More confusion MM? You ARE a nightmare.

(Someone who tells ME about spelling and punctuation!!)

How easy it has been to contain you on this one thread.

How easy it has been to prove that you have no real opinions; all your time is invested in trying to sarcastically browbeat others.

How easy it has been to get you to prove it for yourself.

Which is what I set out to do, and it was EASSSY!!

You are welcome to the last bitchy, spiteful words. Proof indeed!

'More confusion MM?'

You can say that again, who's MM? (_?_)

RE: 'spelling and punctuation'...I don't mind errors if the post is still readable...but yours are really beyond poor grammatical skills.

'How easy it has been to contain you on this one thread.'

You want to get out more, you haven't 'contained' me anywhere, let alone on this one thread...get a grip on reality (_?_).

'How easy it has been to prove that you have no real opinions; all your time is invested in trying to sarcastically browbeat others.'

:) There you go again, delusions or is it that you're holding that mirror too close...you've just described yourself.

'You are welcome to the last bitchy, spiteful words. Proof indeed!'

Yes, Good Luck again...I'll leave the 'last bitchy, spitful words'...to YOU, again...more proof?...I guess so!

I'm still delighted Haneef will have some quality time with his family, aren't you?

DON'T be.....er,....'spitful'?? Miaow Meg. Ask me a question, and I WILL answer...

"I'm still delighted Haneef will have some quality time with his family, aren't you?" (Quote:MM)

...............well? Yes.

The comment made by o sung wu says it all:

"Give your support to the coppers, they're doing their best, often under extraordinarily difficult conditions."

Damned by faint praise ... indeed.

I don't know whether Haneef is innocent or guilty, but the subtext here suggests that there is not a great deal of confidence in the AFP - or should it be ASIO. I agree.

The British do not fall into hysteria over potential terrorism. The British people have great respect for MI5 and MI6, who undeniably have extraordinary powers, and who are extremely efficient and quiet investigators. Despite the massive media machine in England, they are able to avoid such intrusions and the job done without great fanfare.

Unfortunately, the AFP seem inept by comparison. Haneef’s investigation was a media circus. The question of AFP’s level of competence is questionable; their investigation raises more questions than answers - in spite of the fact the public is not privy to all findings. I have no confidence in either the AFP or ASIO. They appear to have neither the experience nor training required for this work.

For any Australian security operative online - I would suggest that you don’t leave a mounting pile of breakfast, lunch and dinner wraps dropped outside your car when you have a suspect under close surveilance. This does tend to give you away. Whilst this occurred a few of years ago, the entire inhabitants of a certain block of flats remember this fondly.

I certainly hope such organisations are more efficient now. They need to be.

Hi Danielle,

It seems the AFP have more than one problem...surely the occupants of one car aren't all the surveilance staff of the AFP? Weren't they relieved of their duties at all during those days? The same car with a mounting pile of rubbish sounds quite unbelievable...are you sure they were AFP and not just a stalker on the loose?

One point you made about the British and their security forces was that they have great respect for them and treat them that way...the British are generally a fairly respectful people I guess. Perhaps Australians could take a leaf out of their book in that respect and try standing in the shoes of those security forces instead of tearing into them at every opportunity without knowing the facts.

Just a thought...

The AFP and ASIO are certainly not perfect however neither are any of us...I'd rather not be without them under the present circumstances.

...btw, I'm not an AFP or ASIO operative on line, they'll have to speak for themselves...

Danielle,

I think you should do some research before you go blindly making wild assertions.

The British equivalent of the AFP is NOT MI5 or MI6 it is SPECIAL BRANCH.

MI5 could broadly be described as ASIO’s equivalent with MI6 and ASIS sharing similar responsibilities.

I wonder whether you could provide us ANY evidence of ASIO mistakes in the Haneef case? I highly doubt it. Your confusion over the roles of the different arms of our intelligence/police services shows a complete lack of understanding of the issues. Clearly you have not delved below the surface and rely on tabloid newspapers for your opinions.

You said “the British don’t fall into hysteria over terrorism.” You can use all the highly emotive terms you like but it was the British who introduced Internment, Diplock courts, shoot to kill etc to deal with the IRA during the seventies and eighties. Look them up.

As for your brush with THE SPOOKS, for all you know they could have been absolutely anybody. But I’m sure with a little help from you and your obviously keen investigative skills you could whip these groups into shape in no time. Let her at ‘em.

Meg1 and Paul.L

I personally didn’t have the brush with spooks, but was told about it after a male was arrested in the block of flats in relation to importing drugs.

Meg1, You agreed with BOAS_David that we don’t know all the details.

I was also in Britain during the 1980’s and security was evident everywhere - not only were they concerned about the IRA, but also Animal Liberationists.

Paul.L. Thank you for the mini lesson on acronyms. I understood that a Security Service was set up in 1949, effectively taking over much of what the AFP did (and abysmally); and in 1950 expanded, becoming what is now known as ASIO.

Yes, I do know what security is. I lived in a terrorist society for seven years. We had friends who were killed; I stood in the aftermath of a cinema, packed full of locals, into which handgrenades had been lobbed. After this experience I developed a hatred of all terrorists whatever their ilk ... I similarly detest lynch mobs ...

But perhaps my experience, like that of Yvonne’s counts for nothing at all.

I concur that we have to have an efficient security in this country - not only to secure us from Islamo-fascists, but also from any “od bod” who has a grievance. Incidentally, I stand by my comments regarding ASIO and the AFP - "efficient" is the operative word.

'Meg1, You agreed with BOAS_David that we don’t know all the details.'

...and I reiterated the same sentiments in my last post...neither you, nor I...know all the facts.

There isn't much point pouting if someone disagrees with you...re: you and yvonne's experiences counting for nothing...no, the issue is that your experiences (or anyone elses) does not give you exclusivity in understanding the facts in this case...as was stated before. Your 'experiences' aren't the only criteria for deciding what is fact and what is fiction in this case...and you are not the only one with 'experiences' from terrorist events, don't assume you are...

Again, I'm pleased we have the security forces in place...imperfect though they are...that thin line of protection sure beats what many countries have around the world...some of us appreciate the work the try to do despite the knockers in this 'free' country.

Meg1,

You admit to not knowing all the facts; and also admit that the security forces are imperfect. I haven’t denied the need for security forces, but question the ability of the current organisations in place. Unfortunately, flaws in such systems can lead to disastrous miscarriages of justice - look at what has happened to some of the asylum seekers.

Is there something wrong in wanting organisations such as these to be better at what they do? It certainly makes for a safer and more secure society for all.

In 1992, resource reductions for ASIO were cut by 60 staff with a $3.81 million budget decrease, both occurred within a four year time frame. This must tell you something ...

Decreased resources, and a demand for results, can lead to cutting corners and abuses. This applies in every arena of work, not just in security issues. ASIO certainly wouldn’t have inherited any skills from the parlous AFP which predated them.

If someone went to ASIO, or the AFP, and mounted compelling accusations against you, Meg1, of being a subversive, wouldn't you want extemely professional investigators.

I didn’t use my my “experiences,” as you say, on deciding what is fact and what is fiction. But I certainly know what terrorism is all about.

Incidentally, I couldn’t care less if you, or others, don’t agree with me. That is your, and their, perogative.

I must confess that I find your posts somewhat amusing. You do go off, don’t you?

Danielle, you argue that inadequacies in the security forces can lead to miscarriages of justice, so too do inadequate restraints on prospective terrorists...more so, in fact. 9/11, Bali, so many examples...perhaps everyday life in Iraq is a good example.

I guess if I gave my sim card to a terrorist cousin (sorry I don't have one) and attempted to flee the country immediately after a bungled bombing, I'd place myself at risk of attention from the security forces...and I'd consider it MY OWN STUPID FAULT, if I did...so too should Haneef. The AFP don't make a habit of picking people up for not wearing a scarf in public as is imposed in some countries...I guess you don't see that is an imposition on freedoms for those who'd rather not comply in Iraq and elsewhere though.

'Incidentally, I couldn’t care less if you, or others, don’t agree with me. That is your, and their, perogative.'

...ditto...but isn't it good to have the chance to freely debate the issues and hear other points of view, not possible in many countries.

'You do go off, don’t you?'

...I'm pleased you get amusement from something, happy to oblige...as for 'going off'...from the pot to the kettle, is it? Re-read your posts...ROFL! Now there's probably someone you could call about hauling that log out of your own eye too...you might even make a $ on the side from woodchipping or something. : )

Danielle

You said ” I personally didn’t have the brush with spooks, but was told about it after a male was arrested in the block of flats in relation to importing drugs”

Well that’s an open and shut case isn’t it then. Lets get rid of the whole lot of them. Wait, we haven’t worked out who or what they were. But surely Chinese whispers are enough to go on. Aren’t they. My friend heard from her sisters uncles boyfriend……..

So if you were in England during the eighties you would know all about Internment, Diplock courts, shoot to kill etc. Which were far, far more draconian than anything we have in Australia. Here is a list of terror attack in the UK. From nearly forty attacks there appear to be TWO attributable to Animal Liberationists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

I will ask you again for a single example of an ASIO mistake in the Haneef case. In fact, if you have any evidence of their involvement at all I would like to hear it.

The lesson wasn’t about acronyms, I was pointing out that you had no idea about what the various agencies were responsible for, or what their British equivalents were. It seems it gets worse.

You said “understood that a Security Service was set up in 1949, effectively taking over much of what the AFP did (and abysmally); and in 1950 expanded, becoming what is now known as ASIO”

But the AFP weren’t even formed until 1979, so how exactly ASIO took over from them I’m not sure. This no doubt accounts for their abysmal performance in the late 40’s.

Danielle, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Maybe it’s about time you did some actual research of your own on these issues and stopped relying on the far-left propaganda.

Well, I did admit I'm not privy to the info AFP or ASIO have, but gee I'm glad that Paul.L has kept up with their history and that of the British security forces...I do remember though that it was the British who shot dead a 'suspect' Brazilian who had a backpack and was running to catch a train, I guess we all make mistakes...some are just fatal, sadly...even the British ones.

...and wasn't it the British who gave false info on the infamous sim card's whereabouts?

'But the AFP weren’t even formed until 1979, so how exactly ASIO took over from them I’m not sure. This no doubt accounts for their abysmal performance in the late 40’s.'

ROFL, Danielle...at least I don't argue on things I know NOTHING about...you on the other hand seem to make the detail up as you go along...or do you pick it up from your flatmates once they've loosened up over a few drinks? Well said Paul! I guess most organisations could be excused for non-performance if they don't exist at the time, huh?

'Danielle, you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Maybe it’s about time you did some actual research of your own on these issues and stopped relying on the far-left propaganda.'

Amen to that Paul, but of course she probably thinks it's more fun relying on gossip and a few drinks or whatever to gather the info on all those 'other subversive types' that aren't permanently leaning to the left like Danielle and her mates, right Danielle?

I guess you take over from Ginx as the resident (_?_) on this thread at this point...ROFL.

Meg1 and Paul.L,

Go to the ASIO site and check their history.

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) were appalling in the 1940's - they hounded innocents with a naivity beyond words. An Australian woman, who was a refugee from the Nazi occupation in France, was terrorised by the AFP; her crime - she had said that she didn't like Churchill - her brother had been killed during the fiasco of Gallipoli, which Churchill orchestrated.

Free speech and all that ..

It didn’t seem to occur to them that nazi “agents” wouldn’t sprout anti-Churchill comments.

In fact, Meg1, “undersirables” and subversives would more likely come on overly uncritical and loyal to their “country”. Just like you do ...

Another Australian woman whose Austrian-Jewish husband had been gassed in Auschwitz, along with his entire family, was as an exchange POW - also also from France. She returned to Australia with the same woman above. This young non-Jewish woman, traumatised and grieving, and with a toddler, was met by the AFP as she disembarked from the ship. They terrorised her, accusing her of being a nazi spy. They broke into her home on numerous occasions; smashed her brother's radio equipment (a hobby of his). He was away fighting in New Guinea.

Apart from having a Austrian-Jew for a husband, another piece of "proof" of this woman’s fascist leanings was a letter she had written years prior. She had been to Italy and wrote that the Italian police on point duty were so gorgeous, she would like to smuggle one home in her trunk. She was interrorated, kept under surveilance, and hounded unmercifully; her friends were also hounded. In fact, she had to keep a diary of all people with whom she come in contact - and they also immediately became suspect. Having been interrogated by the expert SS, she was not impressed by the AFP’s warning that they did not like to get rough, unless they had too.

Paul.L,A

This for a fact. This latter woman was my mother. I also have records from the Australian Archives. Is this enough proof?

cont ...

When she was leaving Australia in 1947 to marry my step-father, a British Colonial Officer in Malaya during the Terrorist Emergency, - the AFP’s comments to her - “Isn’t it strange that where-ever you go, war breaks out.”

How naively dangerous is that.

Sounds so like you Meg1, who doesn’t believe experience, knowledge, and travel count for anything. What exactly do you bring to this debate?

Phillip.L

“From nearly forty attacks ... TWO attributable to Animal Liberationists.”

Thus .. Animal Liberationists were of security concern.

During the War and immediately post-war in this country, the security body here was called Australian Federal Police. Logically, this body would have been set up on outset of war.

Yes, the Brits can be brutal - internment (other countries, including ours, had camps during the war), shoot to kill ... no-one has been shot in this country by police ... ? You really don’t want to travel this road ...

Mistakes?! ... Sending several Afghani asylum seekers back to their country to be executed on arrival. Did any Australian G.O. lose sleep over that? The imprisonment of an asylum seeker for five years in Baxter - a very well-known dissident and writer, who had to flee his country. I believe PEN managed to get him released ... Again, you don’t want to travel this road ...

Re: Haneef

Does an Indian write in English to an Indian relative? ... False info about the sim card ...

Any interrogation is suspect and flawed when the language, used by the interrogators, is not the native tongue of the person being interrogated. Or, if the suspect is neither completely fluent and at ease, nor literate in the language used by the interratogators.

Security departments must have the necessary expertise to handle the job.

I am neither left or right ... am an independent thinker. In my third age, I do not carouse with my mates drinking. I support dissidents living under oppressive regimes, but I am no bleeding heart.

Meg1/Phillip.L - your "decisions" about me couldn’t be more wrong.

Heaven help others ...

Danielle

I note once again you are struggling to get your names right. I’m PaulL and if you have been having an online debate with a phillipL please direct me to it? The Australian Federal Police (AFP) were formed in 1979, as I have said earlier. The only group you could possibly be talking about is the CIB who were, at times in their history, also known as the Australian Commonwealth Police. Part of CIB’s responsibilities were spun off in 1949 to allow formation of ASIO.

This organisation of 1949 has NO relationship at all to the current AFP. They have completely different charters and no doubt different personnel.

I can certainly see how dangerous such a comment, as was made to your mother, could be.??

Both Meg and I have said before that all your experience and travel( which, by the way, you assume is limited to yourself) only makes you an expert on what YOU saw or heard. It doesn’t give you expert status on matters of national policy or history. It certainly doesn’t give you any moral authority.

You do tend to make things up as you go along Danielle. Even if I was wrong about the AFP you seem happy to guess about when such a force was set up and why. Why don’t you just find out for sure and then send us a link.

Again you have misunderstood what is meant by Internment. Internment was a tool used by the British gov’t against the IRA during that conflict. It involved suspected IRA members being jailed without trial.

Similarly shoot- to-kill as a policy wasn’t about self defence. It was the policy of the British forces to kill suspected IRA members on sight rather than try and arrest them. You really don’t want to go down that road!!

The only decision I have made about you, Danielle, is that you don’t seem to have done any research on this topic. After reading your posts on the Palestinian Arts movement it seems that this may have been a one-off occurrence.

..........sorry?..you mentioned my name Meggott....?

What a nasty pair of rottweilers you two are..

I knew when Danielle posted; no matter WHAT she (or anyone else) posted;-if you didn't agree with it, you would launch into your usual onslaught. And you did.

NONE of this has to do with the original topic. This is to assert your dominance, and nothing else.'You' covers both your sorry souls. You are one and the same.

Interestingly, Meggott is absent, and there you are Paull; Meggott returns and you disappear...

Neither of 'you'? could then pass up the opportunity to bully somebody else, together. How bloody pathetic.

Meg/Paul Syndrome=Clones.

You clones criticise everyone PERSONALLY if they say something you don't like.

Paul Clone: you don't even know your Bushbasher from your Bushbred! So debate is healthy is it? You listen to those who disagree with you?
What?..so you can lay into them afterward?

Meg Clone: You have quite a reputation for going for the jugular, and not letting go. Religious Right eh? So much for the tolerance and compassion of the Catholic...
You got yourself into trouble with your linking words habit didn't you?

Well done Danielle; you have done an excellent job in standing up to these two.
Don't let them intimidate you; they are a pathetic pair who cannot hold their own with reasoned discussion, so they resort to exactly the tactic I have used here.

They should understand it well.

Ginx and anybody else, If its too hot in the kitchen ...

If you really think that that both Meg and I haven’t copped our fair share of rough treatment then you just aren’t capable of making an independent judgement.

Forgive me if I believe that someone who has an opinion on matters which affect all of us should actually have some evidence for it. I really don’t think that is too much to ask.

Personal attacks?. Please get over yourself. You’re one of the worst offenders. As for your ‘religious right’ rubbish and the ‘Clones’ and the ‘MIAOW’ it is fairly clear you actually don’t have any ideas of your own. Someone clearly gives them to you.

I haven’t replied to Danielle’s other posts, particularly on Palestinian Arts movement because it is clear she actually has the facts to back up her point. Something you could learn from.

Its high time you realised that any idiot can have an opinion, but that’s totally different to having an informed one.

As for going off topic, well I didn’t realise that you were now arbiter of the debate. By the way, do you really think your rantings on this thread have been ON topic?

It’s fairly typical of the woolly headed soft-left to imagine conspiracies everywhere, but to suggest that Meg and I are one and the same person is completely bypassing the realm of the ridiculous and verging on the paranoid.

I must say, I really loved the ‘MEG/PAUL syndrome = clones’. ROFLMAO. Maybe next time you could draw sticks figures and we could get into the “ I know you are but what am I’ or better yet we could poke tongues and blow raspberries. You should grow up Ginx and maybe get some thicker skin because otherwise you're going to be taking offence at every little thing for the rest of your life.

Paul.L you state: “Internment was a tool used by the British gov’t against the IRA during that conflict. It involved suspected IRA members being jailed without trial”

Internment camps were in Australia during both WWI and WWII.

A few of the 22 references listed by the ALC.:

Internment camp order (no. 10) / prepared by the Staff of the Adjutant-General, and issued under the direction of the Commander-in-Chief.  Canberra : L.F. Johnston, CGP, 1943

Australia. Army. National Security (Internment camps) regulations : Internment camp order (no. 10) / prepared by the Staff of the Adjutant-General, and issued under the direction of the Commander-in-chief.  Canberra : CGP, 1943.

Trojan, Martin. Hinter Stein und Stacheldraht : Australische Schattenbilder / von Martin Trojan.  Bremen : Druck von Carl Schünemann, [192-?]

Chronik der deutschen Internierungslager in Australien. Teil 2, vom 5 Juni 1940 - 15 Dez 1940.

Original photographs of scenes in German concentration camps in Australia [1919?]
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an10974240  

http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/

See:

Morton Clive’s study, “Interned” (Gordonvale, Qld: c2006) ISBN O975171518.
Tracing the politics and cover ups in Australian internment camps during WWII.

“Altitude” , vol 3, 2003. Re: German and Austrian Refugees in Australian Internment Camps and detention centres for asylum seekers.
Australian Public Intellectual Network.
http://www.api-network.com/main/index.php

Your state: “It doesn’t give you expert status on matters of national policy or history. It certainly doesn’t give you any moral authority”.

I don’t assume “moral authority”, but like others, am aware of the history and criminal naivety of the Australian government in 1930’s and 1940’s

Read:

“... in the 1930s and 1940s, Europeans fleeing persecution as Jews often found themselves interned in Australia, as their stories were considered 'implausible.’ Sheer ignorance about the situation in Europe by those charged with investigating the activities of enemy aliens extended to a lack of understanding about the application of the Nuremberg Laws.
Neumann, Klaus. “Fifth Columnists? German and Austrian Refugees in Australian Internment Camps” Public lecture, National Archives of Australia, Goethe Institute (Sydney) and the Centre for European Studies at the University of NSW, Sydney, 17 April 2002
http://www.goethe.de/ins/au/syd/ges/pok/enindex.htm

cont ...

Hi (_?_)s it seems that you can't count the hours either...I have two posts per 24 hour period...like the rest of those on this thread, even you Ginx. ...and I have a life outside of OLO, you should get one too.

I'm curious indeed why you have suggested that Paul.L and I are one and the same...

Perhaps because he clearly is a rational thinker and can make a reasoned argument, without resorting to the gobbly-gook that floods forth when you post. P-l-e-a-s-e re-read your posts so that you are not offending in exactly the manner you accuse others of doing EVERY TIME, not just the last post either.

'In fact, Meg1, “undersirables” and subversives would more likely come on overly uncritical and loyal to their “country”. Just like you do ...'

Danielle, I really haven't met any 'undersirables', but I'm sure you'll enlighten us on that one. As for the undesirables I spoke about, are you suggesting you are an expert on them also? Plenty of undesirable friends too, huh? It is particularly spurious that you would suggest that it is an UNDESIRABLE trait to be loyal to my country, to be otherwise would be treason...are you guilty by your own admission?

I speak freely and use constructive criticism of both government and country when I consider it is necessary, I don't hurl invective and accusation in general terms at an organisation when I don't have full knowledge of the facts...as you pair consistently do at the AFP and ASIO.

What a pity I don't even know Paul.L (Phillip.L for those under the influence of something or generally confused and unaccustomed to dealing with little things like getting names and facts right).

(tbc...)

(Cont...)

Regarding the heresay Danielle provided earlier and now she's gone googling and added some links...I've travelled from 1970's through Israel, Great Britain, Europe, New Guinea, Hong Kong, China and elsewhere, including extensively through Australia. Travel, like research and education can broaden the mind and teach empathy for others around you...even those you'll never meet. However, you need to be open to learn from the opportunities. I have relations and friends who were killed in World Wars or who were scarred but survived them and live with the memories, I have friends and one relation who were interned in this country while their sons fought to defend this country and their mothers and sisters were forced to run businesses, farms or manage their lives as best they could, enduring disgraceful victimisation and prejudice at the hands of fellow Australians. I don't know any of them who became terrorists or were disloyal to the country that didn't always treat them well or fairly, they recognised this was now their home...for better-or-worse, they persevered and made it their permanent HOME. I respect them for that while recognising the ordeals they endured here. Good people pay the price for the evil others perpetrate - good people paid the price for Hitler's war, here too! We don't have to like it or tolerate injustice, but we do need to get our facts straight before we accuse those making difficult judgments, often-with-little-time-to-do-so, of perceived injustices that CANNOT BE SUBSTANTIATED.

So far, I have seen no evidence from either of you to back up anything that you lunge into an attack about...all just a whirlwind of bile and invective and much-ado-about-nothing when your posts are analysed.

Goodnight Paul.L you've used up your two posts now until 11:30am tomorrow, and I'm off all day tomorrow, that'll confuse them totally now, they'll think I can read minds too... :))

Where are all those AFP and ASIO 'spooks' when you need them to take over the on line threads while we sleep...what's the country coming to?

This suspicion and paranoia was applied to others, who were “by association” Jewish German and Austrians, ergo nazis.

Like many, I don’t want to see history repeated with asylum seekers; or, indeed anyone ...I only ask that bodies who investigate such issues be well informed, well trained, and meticulous. Is that too much?

Paul,L Why avoid this comment? I would expect so from Meg1, who damns Haneef on the contents in his fridge, and washing - “housewifely” excellence being the criterium of innocence ... (but, could also indicate intention to return)

I suspect that you are highly intelligent and well educated, unfortunately, by demonstrating arrogance you belie this. Until you can see the whole picture, devoid of your blinkered right/left prejudices, and without nit-picking at pointless minitutae, you are yet to obtain the most important quality - true insight.

I could well see Meg1, painting swastikas on our fence, as was done; but I hope you wouldn’t hold her tin for her.

I have clearly expressed my attitude to terrorists.

ASIO is an umbrella for different Commonwealth intelligence agencies
www.asio.gov.au/About/Content/History.aspx

Paul.L: “Similarly shoot- to-kill ... was the policy of the British forces to kill suspected IRA members on sight rather than try and arrest them”

“Shoot to kill” was not used to take out IRA terrorist suspects. The policy used by countries is “Targeted Killings,” and used to eliminate individuals they view as a threat. A nation's intelligence, security, or military forces identify the individual/s in question, and carry out an operation intended to kill them. For example, on March 6, 1988, Gibraltar, Spain, British intelligence officers shot and killed three members of the IRA they believed had planted a bomb outside the British Governor's residence.

“Shoot to kill” is the policy of taking out a person without first issuing a warning. The Operation Kratos “shoot-to-kill” policy was adopted to deal with suicide bombers ... and was first mentioned publicly by the British Government on July 15, 2005.

This power can also be used by British in domestic violence, kidnapping, and stalking.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article322021.ece

Clones:

NO DOUBT you've copped less than your fair share.

My 'only idea' is not to even attempt to discuss ANY matters that need thought, tolerance compassion.....; and intelligence with you.

'You' prove with every post that an idiot can indeed have an opinion!

Meggot Clone;-look back to mid/end August. Do I have to s-p-e-l-l out 'your' posting pattern/s?

............of course you can't read minds! You have never had any example to judge by....

Danielle,

Now we are getting somewhere.

First let me say that my discussion of Internment, Diplock Courts and Shoot-to-kill, was intended to directly refute your assertions that
1. Australia has overreacted to the terrorist threat and
2. that Britain never took such draconian steps.

I believe I have made my point in this regard.

I am well aware that Australia interned citizens during the world wars. Almost every combatant country did.
The suggestion that the Australian Gov’t was overreacting to a non existent threat is not credible.

I have a real problem with anyone judging the actions of those at the time by today’s standards. That is neither fair nor informative.

Were innocent people wrongly victimised, harassed or interned? Absolutely. Naivety is a description which may well be deserved, but ‘criminal’ is certainly not. To put things in context, during the early years of ww2 the British Empire was in dire peril from the German war machine. Hitler came very close to forcing Britain’s surrender, in which case we might have been speaking German today, instead of English. We were a country with a huge number of men away in uniform and the last thing people wanted to worry about was fifth columnists. Did they overreact? Probably. Should we blame them? NO.

There is no real parallel between this internment and Haneefs case, as you would have us believe. Haneef had a trial, was exonerated, and is home living with his family. His VISA, which was never HIS by right, but merely an extension of our hospitality, can go to someone who is above reproach. There are enough people who want to come to Australia that we don’t need to take a risk.

I honestly can’t see how you can consider the fact that you got the AFP confused with ASIO, minutiae. You were attempting to paint a history of malpractice in the organisation, but you had the wrong one.

As for shoot-to-kill, whilst the British Gov’t denied it, the SAS were no doubt working by this principle for years, especially after the Warrenpoint massacre. Gibraltar is merely one example

“I could well see Meg1, painting swastikas on our fence, as was done...”

Danielle, your ‘know-all’ attitude has your feet in your mouth up to your knees this time…I have had German friends who suffered in that way and were interned with other Italian and Greek men while their families struggled to run farms, bakeries and other businesses and in some cases while their sons fought and died in defense of this country. Extended family would have been on the receiving end of your prejudices not fence-painting with extremists of your ilk.

‘Targeted killings’ or ‘Shoot to kill’

If you are the ‘target’ in Britain or here…what is the difference? You’re going to end up dead Danielle…the aim is the same…for the target and the shooter.

Remember the young Brazilian who ran to catch a train and was shot dead because he had a backpack and looked foreign?

‘British intelligence officers shot and killed three members of the IRA they believed had planted a bomb outside the British Governor's residence.’

I hardly think they issued any ‘warnings’ their either Danielle…their targets were no different to the suicide bomber who is about to detonate a bomb and kill, maim or mutilate as many innocents as he-she can…and probably has assisted in the manufacture and planning of other bombs and bombings.

Every police force has the power to shoot when under attack or in self defence…you could hardly expect otherwise. Some domestic violence, etc. cases become extremely violent, even to the killing of partners and children…should the police allow this to happen? …ditto for the stalkers and kidnappers…they won’t necessarily take the peaceful options and may well become violent and risk or attempt to take the lives of others.

Luckily you don’t have either power as you think having the wrong suspect is ‘minutiae’…you’d kill the wrong target anyway…

(tbc...)

(Cont…)

Haneef’s suspect status had little to do with his washing on the line or his food in the fridge…but that and the myriad of other concerning behaviours, including the sim-card issue which you conveniently choose to ignore, the one way ticket, and his omission to advise his employer and his dubious e-mails…all gave the security forces more than enough cause for concern…his behaviour is the reason his visa has been cancelled, he has himself to blame, no-one else.

At least I’m talking about the right guy…you should try it sometime…minutiae indeed...not if you’re wrongly on the receiving end, Danielle.

(_?_) Ginx, ‘what the’? ? ?

…when I removed the diatribe, there wasn’t anything left to respond to…and I’d have to agree that you probably do only have ‘one idea’…(_?_)

: )

(_?_) Ginx, ‘what the’? ? ?

…when I removed the diatribe, there wasn’t anything left to respond to…and I’d have to agree that you probably do only have ‘one idea’…(_?_)

: )
Posted by Meg1, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 10:23:30 AM

The Meggot returns.

And you think I'M unclear??...eh?