Disproportionate?

Absolutely!

Hezbollah – guerrilla army

Israel – highly funded, highly trained and well supplied with high tech weaponry.

Just to state the obvious.

Now, as a little hypothetical, lets change the headlines I posted above to read:

"Almost two thirds of hospitals in ISRAEL could "cease to function"
"ISRAEL’S coast could take up to 10 years to recover from a massive oil slick"
“"The UN calls off the day's attempt to get aid to ISRAEL"

Imagine (if you have any ability) the outcry from Washington if Israel were to be hit as hard as Lebanon has been?

Now. Let me make myself QUITE CLEAR.

I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF HEZBOLLAH, nor Syria’s and Iran’s intervention.

However, I AM intelligent enough to realise when tit for tat retaliation is SIMPLY NOT WORKING.

Those who are in favour on continued retaliation have no compassion and are warmongers.

Apart from BD (who thinks that peace will come about if Israel is granted everything it wants) not one of those in support of Israel’s excessive force have attempted to propose or support a peace solution.

Peace will not occur with the present tactics.

I have suggested forcing ALL political leaders in the ME to the negotiation table as only talk and compromise will put an end to this senseless violence.

It is never going to be easy, but continued war isn’t achieving anything.

I agree with you Scout.
We need to arm everyone up to the teeth with nuclear weapons so we can end the war.
We could make a handy little profit as we have the uranium.
Kim Beazley would be in agreement with John as well.
Kim could help john in the end.

Scout “War is always justifiable.”

Well a little bit of emotional hyperbole there Scout.

So Scout, tell me, knowing Hezbollah are firing rockets on you and wish to see you and all your kinsmen and kinswomen extinct and driven into the sea, should the Jews of Israel

1: Walk into the Hezbollah bombs and bullets like they did for the gas chambers for the Nazis?

or

2 Decide to make a stand and fight (“war” in your words)?

If your answer is not 2 then why not?

As I have said before, If I were an Israeli soldier, defending my country against a virulent and treacherous enemy, who was not prepared to negotiate a peace which they would honour, I would expect my country to do everything possible to make my life matter, “disproportionately” or not.

The more I see it written, “disproportionate” seems to be just some political weasel word used to describe what someone actually agrees with but needs to appear as politically distant from – typical “double talk”.

I have no such reservations with “terminology”.
Israel is exercising its sovereign right to defeat a cowardly terrorist enemy, known to hide behind human shields of women and babies, which has no mandate or authority to wage the war which it initiated.

When someone can “justify” Hezbollah’s “aggression”, acts of terror, bombing of civilians and firing of explosive rockets indiscriminately into Israel, then and only then you are entitled to try to criticise the actions of a democratically elected government engaged in doing what it needs to do to defend its own population, where "disproportion" has no place in actions of defense.

Scout,

This is not "tit for tat" or retaliation - it is a war to the bitter end: one side will live, the other will die.

What proved to not be working is Israel's previous policy of appeasement, ignoring routine skirmishes for 6 years, closing its eyes on what goes on over its northern border, pretending that UNIFIL did anything but play cards all day.

With Palestinians there is still hope for talks and compromize (although so far they failed to accept any offer to improve their situation), because some of them still want a better life, but what can you talk about with an organization that cares about nothing but your total destruction?

Yes, Israel is currently highly funded, highly trained and well supplied, and has the USA on its side, but it was not always the case. Israel faced a similar situation in 1948 when it had neither of the above - and won. The only difference is in the number of casualties, and because of being well supplied, Israel can afford to take the time to use safer tactics.

This is why the war takes long and seems to not be working, but in fact Hezbullah is at the end of its rope. Tonight, Israel captured several Hezbullah fighters without battle - they were sleeping on guard and reported that they were very tired and hungry. Soon their supplies will end and with it their ability to continue fighting.

Also tonight, Israeli soldiers helped a group of elderly civilians whom they found deserted in a south-west Lebanese village, giving them food, water and medicines. After this war, once Hezbullah is gone, Israel will prove to be Lebanon's best friend. In fact, Israel winning this war will also strengthen the moderates among Palestinians against the extreme Islamists that are currently in power and will allow for a historic compromize and enduring peace in the region. Once Israel is no longer threatened, the Palestinians will also have their land, their state, prisoners, refugees, etc. Israel is not interested in all that - only to survive, and survive it will.

Scout,

You say that all ME political leaders should be forced to the negotiating table.

Who will force them?

Yuyutsu,

My question was really directed towards Col who professes to stand opposed to all religious social orders, but sees nothing to oppose in a state based on religion i.e. Israel. And his response really failed to address my question, but that is nothing unusual.

If you don’t believe that Israel bases its right to exist on religion, then what gave Israel the right to declare itself a “Jewish State”?

What makes a person Jewish? Is it adherence to a religious faith, or being a certain ethnic type? What does it mean to be part of the Jewish nation?

Are suggesting that Israel is secular? Given that being a secular state means that religion is made a private matter for individuals, can a state where it is not legal for non-Jews to marry Jews be secular?

You say the bible was used as a “historical-national” document. What does this mean? Is the bible an accurate historical document? Who wrote it? Why did they write it?

You ask “why should a nation need to justify its right to exist in the first place?”- If we took away all the justifications used to create the state of Israel, would it now exist?

All “nations” do justify their existence – they make constitutions and declarations etc. They haven’t just existed for all time. In fact we should all be examining the phenomenon of nation states, how they have developed, what they actually represent, and the role they have played and continue to play – whether any of them are relevant in a world of globalised production.

Tao

We bring them to the negotiation table by trade sanctions - it will require a unified effort from all the world powers. However, that said, I don't believe it will happen.

No-one cares enough to swallow their pride and compromise for peace. Just look at the responses from many of the posters here. They claim that Israel must defend itself at all costs, blithely ignoring the fact that Israel has been doing this since its inception and nothing has changed.

Meanwhile innocents are still being murdered - there is no 'good' side or 'bad' side - all are equally culpable. If the leaders in the ME really gave a toss about their citizens we would have had peace along time ago - it is about power in the form of energy, politics and religion; there is no room for humanity.