Dee,

“My opinion: the invasion was intended to change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia - Saddam was foolish enough to give cause for concern. The US didnt think far enough ahead or take local and tribal loyalties into account (as usual) but I am not prepared to totally condemn the war –its one of those events that will take decades to analyse and it isn’t over yet.”

Decades to analyse – what on earth do you mean? I can point you to ample analysis if you like, and it was patently obvious to millions of people all over the world what was going on – they are after the oil.

All these comments reveal is that you are prepared to accept that the US was entitled to use ‘shock and awe’ violence, murdering thousands and destroying vital infrastructure in order to “change the variables in the ME and place US troops near to Iran and Saudi Arabia” – or to put it another way, get control of some of the biggest oil fields in the world.

You are therefore prepared to accept that the use of force to conquer another people, and further geostrategic hegemony in a region not your own, is legitimate.

So in other words, you do rationalize and justify violence on a mass scale, and the oppression of the Iraqi people. As I said, you are an apologist for the oppressor.

In these circumstances I fail to see how you can credibly condemn others for thinking that the use of violence is legitimate in furthering their aims – i.e. Islamic fundamentalists, Hitler etc. Unless, of course, you are a hypocrite. It is interesting that you are unwilling to accept violence committed against you, but are happy for it to be carried out against others in your name – until, of course, you take a few decades to analyse it.

“The scenario is the same situation that Israel is in right now. Any Australian who totally condemns the actions of Israel should be prepared to say what they would expect their government to do in similar circumstances. Any Australian who believes that they are living on ‘stolen/occupied land’ and who condemns Israel should perhaps rethink. There but for the grace of God goes Australia.”

And here’s the thing dee, I don’t believe the Australian government, or indeed the entire political establishment, is interested in doing anything for me, let alone indigenous people. They do not represent ordinary people. Same goes for the Israeli government.

I notice you didn’t respond to this:

“When will you wake up and realise that you are being conned by corrupt leaders? We apparently have a booming economy if you believe them, yet there never seems to be enough money for hospitals or schools. Plenty for waging wars based on lies though, and giving tax breaks to the rich. The gap between rich and poor is ever widening. CEOs are getting golden handshakes, companies making record profits, while slashing workers jobs and wages. Some workers are lucky to get their entitlements for work they have already done. We have the ability to provide food, clothing, shelter, water, medicine to every person in the world, yet the rich are lining their pockets and sending the poor to war. Do you ever ask yourself why?”

What is your assessment of such contradictions? Do you ever ask yourself why this is happening?

These are fundamental issues that must be considered before anything else. I’ll be interested to see your response.

One last thing for the moment – God has nothing to do with it.

Hold your stallions diligent TAO, away from the futile-pursuit, cabalistic-testosterone-overdosed DEE whose extremely radical anti-Muslim onslaught on this forum has been synonymous with the racist-slur rhetoric-emissions by his siamese twin Boaz_David. As they always swayed and steered sideways the focal point of the crucial research into Jew aristocracy. As a result this thread's content has been unfortunately cross-pollinated via fricassee gobble-DEE-gook belonging to-other topics as Lebanon Bleeds; Culturally Transmitted Identity; Defining David Hicks; or Zarqawi's War.

Of course OLO forum frequenting Zionist-fanatics will never tell you how all the terrorism started in the Middle-East, do they? They will never admit to you, that they themselves have played-a-huge role in its fundamental development! Nor will they ever admit that their highly idolised fascist-junta in Israel continues to-pour fuel on a very volatile situation by brutalising an-entire population of the Middle East. In order to-achieve an-exclusively Zionist enclave of the radical racism, towards the mutated demography aspirations for the greater eretz Israel.

Surely they'll fiercely deny that they are prima-facie factor to-plunge the entire world into a Dante envisaged inferno by attacking Syria and Iran in a frenzied succession, after Lebanon's obliteration. What could be currently underway with US backing (as we speak). Yeah they will deny with a blatant chutzpah face, world-concerned-citizenry inferences a propos elders-of-zion clandestinely incubated stooges in the US establishment. String attached to the powerful Zionist lobbies, which control key elements of the US governance within the finance, military, education, justice, health, trade, gambling and mass media. Not mentioning Hollywood studios partaken shaping the American couch-potatoes attitude in the Zionist favour.

Contrary those brave enough amongst our Jew dissidents to speak-out against the radical Zionism. While condemning so painfully obvious fascist hegemony, guilty of the heinous crimes committed against the humanity. At the time when utterly deceitful Zionist zealots, veiled under revolved aliases cast on this forum, evidently having a great stake in blurring so radically span disparity between the Jews on socio-ideological grounds. How else would they use otherwise our Jew-lesser brethren embodiment? Scapegoated as the human shield to deflect focus from the actual plague!

So now that the brave citizenry within OLO forum began exposing these-racist Zionist-stooges for who, and-what-they-are, and what an-agenda they stand for ... these highly maligned stooges (lacking-morality-virtues), still-dare to-scream, bitch, threaten, send-hate-mail, scuffle-threads, destroy-debate-forums or the vital-blogsites in an-effort to-silence all the criticism against the diabolical Zionism. Even if any-such-valid censures are legitimate, they go-for the jugular-and-besmirch decent-human-beings! Just for expressing our revulsion versus fascist-tactics-onslaught, sustained by the Middle-Eastern people.

Aggravated especially since the latest in diabolically-amalgamated Olmert/Dubya plot being set in-motion in-accordance with the final-solution-for the Arabia. Manifesting thus-affront-to the contemporary human-rights principles and the elementary civil-society-norms. As fascist Zionism modus-operandi sought to re-create the anecdotal land-of-milk-n-honey in the 21st century in-lieu-of-something, we were told by Zionists ..."existed over 3,000 years ago". What is totally unacceptable to-the-humankind on the planet earth (whilst the hijacked Jewish communities faced-moral-implosion and social-chaos) due to the endless occupation by Israeli junta Palestinian territories. Culminating in the latest invasion into sovereign Lebanon.

Even Israeli refuseniks warned their own brainwashed people of the impending doom, faced by the Jews on-a-whole. As a result of a deeply entrenched decay. Representing haemorrhaging Zionism for some years, like an-open festering-sore. Whilst the neighbouring Arab countries despotic regimes hated and distrusted each other with a passion. Still some Arabian negotiators offered behind the scene a way-out for Olmert/Dubya right-winger-zealots, but they rejected it outright (with an-utter disdain). In spite of the offered normalised relations, security for the Israeli people and integration in a long-run into Middle-Eastern setting.

All these were offered in exchange for-a-long oppressed Palestinians to-have an-ultimate freedom from diabolical Zionism and its fascist rule in the occupied territories. Where so vastly-innocent-victims spilled-blood, tainted-Israel and US accomplice (not-to the lesser extent than the guilt for the spilled-blood in Iraq, Afghanistan and lately-in-Lebanon). Hopefully comatose Sharon to-be imminently joined by the impeached Dubya and Olmert. So ultimately they-to-meet all together in-hell and exchange their genocide notes. After all, they had a very same set-of-solutions for defenceless minorities (which live in their midst), ethnic cleansing or elimination in the fascist style of the final solution.

Tao - ‘analyse – what on earth do you mean?’

Looking at the broader picture, an Iraqi democracy in the ME would not be a bad thing per se (if it happens) and the removal of Saddam Hussein is a plus for Iraq. Will Iraqis in the future feel that being freed from a despot was worth the ensuing loss of life?

‘they are after the oil’

I never believed that a simple oil grab was the reason behind the war. However, I did consider that the Bush admin. believed the occupation of Iraq plus establishment of permanent US military bases would discourage OPEC producers from switching the denomination of oil sales from USD to euros. Also, the US may need to control the Ghawar oil fields in Saudi Arabia in case of a Saudi coup by an anti-western group – there are signs of coming unrest in Saudi.

‘you are an apologist for the oppressor’

Who, me? If significant amounts of active WMDs had been found within Iraq and the loss of life, of both Iraqis and young US marines, were not so great, I would have supported it. In the present circumstances, no.

'didn’t respond to this..’

Maybe I agree with you! I did respond, actually, *but* 350 word limit. I don’t need to ‘wake up’ – I am perfectly aware of ‘CEO golden handshakes’ etc. These things are not exactly new – remember the era of the corporate crooks and the billions handed to Alan Bond? I don’t agree with all of John Howard’s policies but I would vote for him ten times over rather than see the ALP back in power – a return to the days when the economy was controlled by unions would be a disaster. The AUD was 48 cents to the USD in the ‘Pacific peso’ days, (it is now approximately 78 cents).

cont. next post

Tao - The IR (especially unfair dismissal) laws needed to be fixed but not at the price of conditions and security. The increasing push for workplace contracts is also a worry and the health and education systems in most states are a disgrace. I have no argument with you on these points, the little person is getting screwed, its happening in the US too. The European model is fine for the average worker (so far) but their economies are lagging badly and unemployment is way up so their generous welfare systems cannot continue indefinitely, the time has come to pay the piper. Competition is also a big factor – unless Australia wishes to follow Europe, we have to lose some entitlements – and its always the little people who pay – yes, it sucks, but what is the solution?

‘ I don’t believe the Australian government is interested in doing anything for me ..’

The question was: what would you wish the government to do on your behalf– ie what would be your response to the threat?

1. You can acknowledge that you are in the wrong, return to the country of your ancestors and leave Australia to the original inhabitants.

2. You can continue to try negotiation with people who have vowed to drive you into the sea.

3. You can fight.

This is the position of Israel now.

‘Same goes for the Israeli government.’

According to the latest poll, 86% of Israelis support the attack on Hezbollah.

‘God has nothing to do with it’.

You seem mighty sure of that.