Rainer,
You couldn't possiblr be refering to Joe Ludwig could you? A perfect example of awu jobs for the boys. I have been involved in good unions, who have fought the good fight for their members, the awu is not a member of this club.

David Boaz,
David how is it possible to change the them/us philosophy, when reality still presents the same picture today, as it did then?

It amazes me why right wing people would join a union for protection of their income and conditions, then go and vote for a right wing government who attacks the very nature of why they joined a union in the first place, for the love of God, how can anyone be so niave....

Shonga I have much more in common with you than some other posters.
I think a few years too, Shorten is my tip because only , yes only a near new Labor team can win goverment in this country.
The fact is unions other than mine may well have bought the Howard monster down on us.
City centric unions are not on the ground in rural NSW while reluctant to divid unions with that old line you throw at mine lets review my workplace.
I saw the elction of the other unions delegate to the EBA commitee, transported him with my delegates 220 klm to and from the meetings, the AWU paid his meals and overnight costs.
It is fact that ALL unions let members down yours too, and that if the bloke along side you at work votes conservative he has every right to want to be in a union.
Is it not clear that my dream is to see Howard cry just as Frazer did?

Belly as I said I believe you tpo be a decent man who works hard for his members, no union/business is perfect, there will always be radicals like myself who will want to push the envelope, and try to get workers a better deal. I accept the bosses unions {Chambers of Commerce} will oppose as cthey should, represnting the interests of their members.

I see the Labor Party as a political organisation, who should be an advocate for employees to join unions, and for union reform to be initiated to give all unions a charter to work hard to represent their members to the best of their ability. Now that it has been made non-compulsory to join an organisation, that will support you through hard employment times. Unions can still advocate on behalf of working people, however I can not remember the last ALP Leader State or Federal I heard advocationg the Unions to the workforce.

The State Labor Governments have not significantly increased wages or conditions for the workforce in general, as they are too conservative {right wing} to take low paid workers plight seriously, and until they do they will remain in Federal Opposition, Shorten is just another conservative, if he leads the ALP the difference to Beazley will be infanite.

Hi Sean
getting rid of a 'them/us' mentality, is a big ask.
Specially when our brother Belly says he is a lifelong AWU trade unionist, which just perpetuates the issue.

I get wearied by interiminable discussions as on this thread of well meaning people who think they can discuss the problem into a solution by just looking at various aspects of the issue.

The reason I ramble on about 'new people rather than new ideas make new communities' as nauseam, is because I believe it :)

I think Belly and others are extremely 'entrenched', and have settled their minds on the position that 'nothing good can ever come out of Galilee'..oops.. I mean the Liberal party :) I tend to agree to a point, in as much as the Liberals also represent specific interest groups.

Most political parties which represent specific interests, often wax eloquent about how they really support and govern for EVeryone.... but I suspect it is more window dressing than anything.

When brother Belly puts as much emphasis on the interests of employers as he does on employees, I'll know there is hope for a future.

When the bible speaks of "There is no longer slave or master, greek or jew" it is referring to the renewed community where such traditional barriers are overcome in Christ.

We still need constant encouragment and rebuke to maintain our spiritual condition and growth.

The early church was "sharing everything" in Acts 2, but by Acts 7 the Jews were tending to neglect the Greeks in the daily distribution.
This is not a condemnation of the Church but of fallen selfish human nature.
Even Paul says (regarding perfection)

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. ...But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus

BD please just understand I have the right to think as I wish, my dream is for constant change and improvement from the union/Labor movement.
120 years ago my union formed like all man does we make mistakes and some let us down, your God would expect nothing less.
Each day I leave home not knowing what problems I must try to fix ,today its raiseing money for a 3 year old who no longer has a mum, and bosses who I like, the workers like and who like us will contribute.
Haveing once been a christian I doupt you have the right to judge me.
Your seeming view that a unionist can not be a careing human remind me of why I hold the view we are masters of our own fate.
A middle of the road careing human being not tarnished by his union background who will bring us a better world is Bill Shorten, change threatens no man if its for the good.

Belly,
As I said I know you mean well mate, you have just gotten yourself in the wrong union if you actually care about people, because the awu doesn't. This will lead to frustration over the coming years for you.

DB I understand where you are coming from, and if negotiations were between you and I we could work out a solution, however this situation is about global capital finally overcoming completely global labour, and squashing it, only one response is appropriate, it has been seen all over the world in countries like France, currently.

Australian's seem to be much more subservient than their french cousins, we don't stand and fight the most draconian heartless, authoritian legislation in a century. We just allow ourselves to be pushed around, some won't let this happen without opposition, nor should they.Bad laws are bad laws, a rose is a rose by any other name.