I am biased, true haveing lived every one of those 23 years under conservative goverment I have no wish to do it again.
As I have said Labor party reform is one of my wishes, Gillard has no part to play in leadership.
here are my answers, it would be wrong to leave Iraq yet,we should stay but constantly review that stand.
We can leave the uranium in the ground and let others sell it or sell it I say sell.
Yes I respect and like Kim ,but he will not win an election.
Australia needs a change in goverment the ALP needs a few by elections , now is the time for some good men to leave the house giveing us hope.
And just maybe a leader, Shorten will lead in time and very well.
And understand please no minority ever elected an Australian goverment ,but plenty had much to add to good goverment.

What puzzles me is this stoic support of Shorten who is largely untested in the deep waters of leadership and social and economic policy. Running corrupt factions and rote learning and speaking what will be popularly recieved [in a union willing to promote you] is one thing.

Actually understanding the complexities of the social justice and economic conditions that effect the majority of Australian (who are not mesmerised by the products of unionised king making) is quite another.

In the absence of anyone else of substance one should be careful not to accept those who are milking the Labor leadership vacuum for personal gain. Shorten's ambitious pomposity may fool some but not all.

To my way of thinking - In days past when good leadership was plentiful, the only job Shorten would get would be adminstrative.

As soon as Shorten came out in support of a flat 30% tax that did him as far as I was concerned. If ever Shorten became leader that would lent credibility to this grossly inegalitarian proposal, opening the way for a 'bipartisan consensus' on a matter that would otherwise be sure to gain very little public support.

Tristan

Belly,

And what caused the 23 years of coalition rule.... Was it a divided dysfunctional Labor party? Or were the Liberals that good?

Finally after the Whitlam debacle the Labor voters get Hawke who is re-elected several times... and what do the brains trust do... they dump Hawke for Keating! Amazing!

Great plan! Then Keating accidentally wins an election and Labor think they are unbeatable! Keating loses to Johnny Howard ... the most rejected politician of our time and then they can't get him out... Wow!

Shorten as leader won't "Shorten" Labors time in opposition. Learn from history.... Labor tried an unknown last election... "Another great plan"!

The Gillard/Rudd team are your only hope of replacing the Howard Govt. unless the AWB enquiry does it for you guys:

http://www.news.com.au/index/0,10121,37435,00.html

Labor have gone into too many elections with their "fingers crossed" as their key stategy... they even lost the GST election...
How could Kim lose that one? One word "Complacency"... they got lazy because they didn't think the people would go for a new tax system.

Does Labor still have the same strategists and advisors they had in that memorable loss? They appear to have the same strategies....

Gillard & Rudd will at least give the opposition a chance to win, fresh faces, a younger team, a more dynamic team... Whilst your loyalty is admirable your hope for Shorten as leader to win the next election just doesn't make political sense. As I said before people don't like big company bosses or union bosses

You and I are liveing with that 23 years now, Ming the then prime minister used fear and devision to rule.
He took the best of our policys and called them his own, the Labor party stood for what they thought was right and did not change with the times.
Make no mistake Howard lives in that mans shadow willingly knowingly.
Only a majority can elect goverments, daily we see my poor mate Kim struggle to even use words that do not turn the electorate away.
Our leadership pool is deep and long not only but includeing Steve Smith Rudd[if you must] Swan,Shorten, it however ,be realistic please ,will never include Gillard.
This is no time to forget or forgive a bloke called Mark Latham, reality tells me his supporters owe working Australians a great deal this week, the gift of the upper house to Howard lays at their feet.

Belly

I've been following this thread for a while and I share the same concerns as to how Labor will ever get its act together.

Shorten is:
1. Unknown quantity - the main reason for promoting him seems to be based more on his unknown factor - a kind of heads in sand approach. What we don't know won't hurt us POV.

2. Right wing based - What I have been able to glean about him is that he is a right faction type. Not exactly ground breaking - more inclined to maintain the status quo - as Beazley has done to democracy's detriment.

Also you repeatedly diss Gillard without any reason as to why, please enlighten me.

Labor needs a fresh approach - Shorten doesn't indicate anything new.