redneck, would you then ban everybody who rode a motorbike (or even everybody who liked Harley's) from coming to Australia? That seems to be what many of you are proposing in regard to Muslims. I might be happy to ban everybody with a proven ties to an Outlaw bikie gang just as I'd happily do something about others with proven associations to terrorist organisations (be they Catholic, Muslim, Orthodox etc).

philo, the shooting incident I refered to reportedly occured last weekend - not real far in the past. The stuff I heard about from the guy I worked with was further back but what I've heard elsewhere since does not lead me to think that much has changed. Many of the attrocities reportedly carried out by gang members seemed to revolve around devaluing and humiliating women. "Aussie slut" may not have been a factor but the aim and approach sounds pretty much the same.

There are some people who think more highly of themselves by expressing their contempt for the rest of us and our laws. Not all muslims and not just muslims - quite simple really.

R0bert

Arjay, you say "Wibble ,you can quote all the stats you like,but who compiled them and what were the parameters that defined the palitable facts only for left wing consumption?"

I can quote all the stats I like, and so can you, but have so far not done so. Instead, you quote your "contacts in the Taxi industry".

I struggle to interpret the rest of your question; my best interpretation is that you questioned the source and bias of my statistics. If you had gone to the links, you would see I'm using Parliamentary articles with ABS sources, and the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research(actually, I quoted the Bureau so you didn't even have to go that far).

Conceivably I could be accused of bias, selecting the statistics that suit "my" argument. The response to this would be to find your own. BOAZ_David sort of attempts this by saying "WIBBLE you should research the crime stats for South Western Sydney compared to those for the rest of the city, quite revealing", though didn't actually provide a source for that citation.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_crime_stats lets you select stats from different regions, crimes and periods, so if anyone wants to do some research, go for it.

I used this site to examine the 17 major crimes (their definition) from 1998-2001, comparing the Outer South Western LGA to all of Sydney, as BOAZ_David suggested.

These were the results (haven't included crimes with no trend change)-

Outer South Western-
Assault up 4.8%,
Domestic Assault up 4.6%,
Robbery without weapon up 13.6%,
Break enter dwelling down 9.2%,
Break and enter non-dwelling up 10.9%,
Motor vehicle theft up 3.8%,
steal from motor vehicle up 16.1%,
Fraud up 11.3%,
Malicious damage up 3.7%.

All Sydney-
Assault up 3.6%,
Domestic Assault up 7.4%,
Robbery without weapon up 8.1%,
Break enter non-dwelling up 4.3%,
steal from motor vehicle up 7%,
Fraud up 12.7%

Even accounting for the Outer South Western figures being included by Sydney figures, this is hardly supportive that "1998-2001 while all other types of crime including gun crime were decreasing across Sydney, SWS rates skyrocketed".

Using the link from my previous post (http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_crime_stats), I looked at crime rates for the last five years up to the last reported stats from the site (from Jan 2000 to Dec 2004).

I considered rates of Murder, Assault (not domestic), Sexual Assault, Indecent assault, and Malicious Damage. Thankfully, murder is such a low incident crime no statistically significant trends can be established.

For the other crimes, I looked at all the broad regions in NSW, and the broadest category of regions within Sydney. When there is no change in the trend for any of these crimes, I have written no change. I have only included crimes with each region for which there is a trend;

Central West-Malicious Damage up 5.5%

Far West-no change

Hunter-Assault up 5.4%, Sexual Assault up 7.2%, Indecent Assault up 5.2%

Illawarra-Malicious damage down 1.8%

Mid North Coast-Malicious damage up 2.9%

Murray-Malicious damage up 2.9%

Murrumbidgee-Assault down 4.6%, Indecent Assault down 7.8%, Malicious Damage up 3.1%

North Western-Malicious Damage up 5%

Northern-no change

Richmond-Tweed-Sexual Assault up 11.3%

South Eastern-no change

Sydney:

Blacktown-Assault down 1.5%

Canterbury-Bankstown-no change

Central Northern-no change

Central Western-no change

Eastern Suburbs-Sexual Assault up 11.7%, indecent assault up 9.7%, Malicious damage down 1.4%

Fairfield Liverpool-Indecent Assault up 1.7%, Malicious damage down 2%

Gosford Wyong-Sexual Assault up 10.5%, Malicious damage up 5.1%

Inner city-Indecent assault up 6.8%

Inner Western Sydney-no change

Lower Northern Sydney-no change

Northern Beaches-Assault up 2.6%, Malicious damage down 5.9%

Outer South Western Sydney-no change

Outer Western Sydney-malicious damage down 2.3%

St George-Sutherland-no change

To me, the standout upward trends are in malicious damage (in many areas), and sexual and indecent assaults in the Eastern Suburbs and Hunter, and sexual assaults in Gosford-Wyong and Richmond-Tweed.

I'm open to a serious alternative, but given the media alarm at Islamic crime but the lack of evidence from these statistics, it seems to me the premise of the article that stories about those "evil Arabs" are being sexed up remains viable.

wibble,
In the report did it show the ethnic origin or reigious affiliation of the offender. Knife related crime, rape, armed robbery and assult by Middle Eastern males doesn't only happen in Canturbury - Bankstown they travel outside the area. Cronulla, Maroubra, George St City are not in Western Sydney nor is Annangrove. So merely identifying areas where crimes are reported is not a genuine or authorative comparison.

Dear Wibble...
you stats are most interesting:

1/ They 'begin' at a period where gun crime in South Western Sydney had SKYrocketed over the previous 5 yrs or so, relative to the rest of Sydney
2/ "No Change" suggests that the extremely disproportionately HIGH levels observed from 1998 to 2001 are STILL THE SAME i.e. disproportionately high.

Without looking at it more closely that is my immediate reaction to your post.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that you made the effort to gather that information, because I for one will not object to truth, and always seek to ensure that truth is the foundation of my own, though I have made a couple of embarassing blunders.

I don't see much value in the linking of particular crime to ethnic groups, I see a much bigger picture. Anecdotal accounts of ethnic behavior just serve to re-inforce our prejudices usually, I prefer to examine fundamental doctrines and history for a better basis of making social policy.

The tension and verbal conflict in the forum is healthy, divergent views cause people to search out facts and info.. lets all keep it up.

BD

"I don't see much value in the linking of particular crime to ethnic groups, I see a much bigger picture. Anecdotal accounts of ethnic behavior just serve to re-inforce our prejudices usually, I prefer to examine fundamental doctrines and history for a better basis of making social policy." that first bit looks a bit like you are on the run :) from a difficult trend in the facts.

The stats presented seem to be a valid response to claims by many of a serious rise in crime levels in areas with high muslim (and particularly Lebanese Muslim) populations. A legitimate and telling response to a lot of anecdotal accounts of ethnic behaviour put forth by yourself and other mossie bashers in an attempt to re-inforce prejudices.

Examine fundamental doctrines and history - that makes some sense but also requires that you work from reasonable assumptions. You have to assume that the group you are dealing with are representative of the groups who's fundamental doctrines and history you are examining. When I consider how much western culture has changed during my lifetime it's hard to be to confident that history is a good indicator. You would also have to ignore the idea that those who choose to move to another country and culture might not have the strongest ties to the culture and doctrines which you are basing your judement on. Middle eastern muslims who choose to come to Australia may not be representative of those who hold power in their homelands and they may well be quite a different group to those who choose to move to Europe. Gets pretty difficult when you think about it doesn't it.

Might be better to dealing with those who reject this country and it's laws and letting everyone else live within those laws regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

R0bert