Does nayone have the Link to the SMH article referenced at the start of the article

thanks

http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/

Believe it's this one: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/02/19/1140283949210.html

There were in fact 2 articles exposing priest in the SMH. We haven't heard from him since.

When people attempt to couch racism in so-called facts, they are always exposed. This is because attempts to claim that persons of a particular faith all have the same behavioural abnormalities are inherently irrational.

Just because Tim Priest’s police colleagues could not corroborate some of his claims does not make Priest’s tales “tall” ones. Was it ‘could not’ or ‘would not’? It seems natural for any organization to deny or claim ignorance of anything critical to that organization.

Further, any criticism or suggestions that Mr. Priest may have not told the truth does not and will not nullify the existence of Lebanese Muslim gangs, who have clearly demonstrated their attitudes to Australia and its culture.

Mr. Hakim’s admitted relationship with NSW police underlines the claims that police were soft on Lebanese gangs. That police were “sensitised” is very damning for both Mr. Hakim and the NSW police. On the one had, Arab Muslims describe their thugs as mere law-breakers, on the other hand they plead for sensitivity on the part of police to the thugs’ “sub-culture”.

Nothing about Arabs has to be “sexed up” (disgusting expression). The facts are there for all of us to see.

Rather childishly, Mr. Hakim then gets around to “what if”, suggesting a Priest type report on “Australian” criminals; the old Arab Muslim Vs. Australians scenario. In his ‘victim statement’, Mr. Hakim has finally got around to the huge chasm between European Christian Australians and the Islamic community. We are supposed to regard Lebanese Muslims as Australian (even when they themselves don’t), but when it comes to point scoring, Mr. Hakim reverts to “Australian” and others.

And, he is a former multicultural affairs commissioner!!

We should not waver for one moment in defence of our civilization and culture, and we should not be cajoled or threatened by anyone wanting to prevent us from doing this, as Mr. Hakim is doing. Thanks to multiculturalism, we are at the beginning of a clash of opposites. There can never be any understanding between Western culture and one still in the Middle Ages. Those claiming to be victims or moderates should never be allowed to beguile us.

"Oiling" the truth, as Wakim does, makes the latter hardly visible.

The obvious truths of gang rapes and crime, of highly probable internal terrorist sleeping cells, and the rigid refusal of the majority of Muslims to integrate into the mainstream Western culture, are to Wakim, sex up hallucinations.

http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

I do not live in Sydney.

Who is Tim Priest and why should I care?

I have no reason to doubt that this Priest bloke might be a right mongrel, but even then the TV footage of Cronulla Riots and there aftermath, the reports of gang rapes and other crimes appears very real and worrying.

This article seems to be just an attack on this Tim Priest and contributes nothing meaningful to the problem of cultural conflict in Sydney.

To Narcissist.

Detective Sergeant Tim Priest was the NSW police officer who put his career on the line to inform the public that the NSW Police Force had officially instructed their own rank and file to take a three monkee approach to ethnic criminal behaviour in the Vietnamese Ghetto of Cabramatta. Cabramatta is the heroin capitol of Australia.

He even had the guts to confront his own Police Comissioner face to face when the Comissioner, Peter Ryan, finally responded to the scandal of Cabramatta, and dragged his butt down to the Cabramatta railway station to look at all the drug pushers openly selling heroin on the platform surounded by comotose junkies and frantic ambulance officers.

Priest recounted in his book "To Protect and to Serve" how the minions of the ABC did a hatchet job on him for daring to expose the extent of ethnic related crime in Sydney. The local ALP member smeared him as a "disgruntled detective." When Ms Meagher later attended a public meeting, hundreds of ordinary, decent people screamed at her to apologise to Tim Priest. Looks like the politically exquisite SMH has stooped to new lows to smear Tim again.

Tim Priest is considered a man of unimpeachable integrity, it is no wonder that the Islamic lobby and their academic, anti everything mates are also trying to shut him up. Their biggest problem in Sydney is that Mr Priest's credibility preceedes him like a shining light.

If you want to appear fashionably intelligent, Mr Narcissist, you had better figure out who is lying around here and get onside with the smart people who have guts.

I fail to see the relevance of this article, are you actually saying that because some aspects of Priest's stories of raids are doubted that middle-eastern crime is a myth?

If you are, there is obviously not much point in trying to communicate with you.

If you're not, so what?

For anybody to doubt that our major organised crime syndicates are ethnic based, you need to speak with not only the ABS, but ASIO and the AFP.

Why ethnics always believe that an attack on a member of their community means the person is racist is indicative of the type of mindset that those of that ethnicity have themselves.

And we see this all the time with Islamic leaders, writers, clerics, and so on. I have seen enough over the years to feel I'm totally accurate in saying that Muslims are largely un-critical of themselves or their community. A thousand plus years of being taught that infidels are inferior may be to blame, but for me, it's plain racism.

Why does the entire Muslim community feel attacked, victimised whenever somebody says something about members of that community? Do you not see that this is an obvious example of a horde, herd mentality?

Does the writer doubt that basically everytime we see on the news a middle-eastern person being arrested or going to caught, they attack our police and media? Women even, mothers, have called gang-rape victims "sluts".

When an SBS crew did a story on it at Lakemba (apparently a holy place) mosque they were bashed, but before they were they got some excellent footage. Footage of about twenty Muslims laughing after one Muslim male said "those girls were just sluts anyway".

Do you not know what the average Australian thinks of this? If that happened at a church, other parisheners would out such misoginistic bigots.

But no, once again, another writer who is in denial as to the extreme Muslim problem we face.

Are they all lying in Denmark, Holland, Germany, France, and so on, where, in EVERY Islamic diaspora, there is similiar behaviour? Racially motivated gang rapes are common, bashings on those of the host culture by hordes of youth are common, as is crime - both fraud types, with welfare rorting, compensation rorts, and violent crime. In France alone, according to TIME magazine, 55% of ALL that nations inmates are Muslims.

Is it poverty you say?

No, don't buy that. Where I live, on the central coast, unemployment is on par with unemployment in Muslim communities yet there are no major drug dealers, organised crime robbing ATM's, thugs bashing people based on their skin colour, and so on.

You can't trick me, you may be able to trick some, but I have lived amongst it. I know how racist & intolerant many Muslims are.

Somebody in the Muslim community has to answer my question: Why does your entire community feel attacked when somebody comments on individuals within that community?

I liken it to the KKK. There are white people who don't want ethnics here, yet whenever the media attack them I don't feel victimised. Our leaders don't come out saying "Oh, that's a bit racist".

Do you not know how bad this looks? That your leaders protect the KKK in your community? I believe the problem is that, sadly, the Islamic community by far has the most racists within any community Australians have ever seen.

Clerics say the most wicked things yet nobody leaves the audience. At an Insight forum last year, Muslim leaders clapped after the bigoted American Sheik Yassin commented that the media did "a sound bite" on his words about Muslims not allowed to mix with us.

Do you even think Sheik Yassin IS a bigot?

Actually, Tim Priest is a bit of a self-promoter who took a well-publicised stance on Cabramatta in order to sell a book he had just co-written.
While stood-down from the Police force and in cahoots with Alan Jones, he helped put pressure on Minister Costa to have Police Commissioner Peter Ryan removed from office. The fact that Jones and Priest are mutual fans of each other should tell you something.
The day he was re-appointed to the Police Force he was immediately retired due to "ill-health" thereby walking away with $455,000 of taxpayers money, so his re-appointment was a financial strategy rather than a moral victory.

It's not surprising that his most recent Quadrant speech, where he repeated his previous claims but toward a different racial group came just in time to promote yet another book (surprise surprise).

Not much has really changed in Cabramatta - talk is cheap.

The second SMH story about Priest's apparent economy with the truth is at http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sas-claims-infuriate-whistleblower-priest/2006/02/20/1140284005861.html

This has to do with his alleged claim that he was once a member of the Australian Army' Special Air Service Regiment.

The writers interviewed Paddy McGuinness, editor of Quadrant, in which Priest's original article appeared:

'Asked if he would publish further articles by Mr Priest, Mr McGuinness said: "I'll look at it very carefully and question it. People make mistakes. In his case it's stupid; it's worse than that if everything that's been reported is true. [If] he's silly enough to falsify situations, well, he's a fool."'

Even so, opinion-creature Miranda Devine wrote the following day, http://smh.com.au/news/opinion/injustice-rolls-on--over-the-messenger/2006/02/22/1140563858117.html?page=fullpage

"regardless of the miserable attack, his critique of the NSW Police [in 2003-04] and the continuing failures to deal with crime, from Cabramatta to Cronulla, is as valid as ever and as unpalatable as ever to his enemies. His courage in blowing the whistle in Cabramatta remains unchallenged."

Oddly, Dr Don Weatherburn, head of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics, was quoted by Ross Gittins in the SMH in April 2004 as pointing out that, http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/06/1081222469069.html?from=storyrhs

'You wouldn't believe it - at long last we're making progress in the war against drugs. Evidence is mounting that we've succeeded in limiting the supply of heroin available, which has led to a decline in its consumption and the harm it causes.

'What's more, the decline in heroin use has led to a decline in property crime. And these good outcomes flow from the workings of simple market forces.

'This encouraging chain of events is demonstrated in a study by Dr Don Weatherburn and colleagues at the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, which was presented to a conference of criminologists late last year.'

If this is the police's "continuing failures to deal with crime", let's have more of it.

I strongly agree with Leigh that stories about muslims hardly need to be 'sexed up'. But what I really want to say is why anyone expressing a negative view of them is regarded as 'racist'? As I recall, islam is a religion, not a race. And does religion belong in any discussion of the politics of a democratic country? May I further suggest that someone who claims they are Australian, but also Something Else, is not Australian at all?

Tim Priest spoke the truth, the PC brigade tried to crucify him and the facists Muslims still speak with a forked tongue because the left were afraid of their multicultural utopia coming asunder.

Irfan Useless has lost any credibility.

We in Sydney have seen the Muslim hate and violence striking at the heart of our freedoms in the name of religion in our suburbs."Aussie sluts that deserve to be raped, skips that have to be bashed."We have tolerated this for decades under the umbrella of racial tolerance and now the likes of Irfan Useless want to deny the reality.

The battle lines are drawn,and it is about time Australians woke up.

To Leigh, Themistocles, Narcissist, redneck, Arjay, and Benjamin – I love the KKK analogy –

your posts have given hope to Australia and Australian society that it is not lost to Middle Eastern thugs, IslamoFacists, and the liberalist cultural relativists who protect these thugs and middle age thinking but do not say one word to protect Australian society and Australian women.

From the government statistics and newspaper articles I have researched about Muslim ‘social terror’ in Europe – I had lost all hope that Australia was doomed to take the same path, being pushed by IslamoFacists on the one side, and pulled by liberalist cultural relativists on the other.

These people can print whatever they like in the Australian and European media about there being no problem – but the people will know the truth, their daughters will experience being hassled and threatened with rape, and also raped, the intimidation, hatred for white Australians, first hand in Australian society no matter what the media tells them.

To Irfan – Muslim organizations in Denmark recognise that Muslims are over-represented in rape statistics in Denmark, responsible for 68% of all rapes (but make up less than 5% of the population/ 80% of women raped are Danish), and the clear underlying culture of rape behind such statistics, as documented in official statistics, [http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html], but you liberalists say it is racist to recognise it, even though Muslim organisations recognise it themselves...

You paint people with the ‘racist’ or ‘Islamophobia’ brush who merely post what Muslims themselves have stated about themselves. The Muslim orgaisations have recognised the problem and have commenced a campaign to fight the problem in Denmark– sincere congratulations to Babar Baig from Minhaj ul Quran’, The Organisation of Pakistani Students and Academics (OPSA), and Union of Muslim Students (FASM)’ for such courage - but you the liberalists and Muslims in Australia paint everyone with the racist brush and put your heads in the sand and do not recognise it, and therefore, you are not letting the problem be worked out, to the detriment of Australian women – you cowards.

“The alleged claim of membership in the SAS ” ... er.. yes.. the one that is mentioned only by the Police and said to ‘have arisen during’ an investigation. Nowhere does it say “Tim Priest claimed”.. The rest of that article crucifies Priest on the basis of this very straw man. I’m not surprised he got hot under the collar.

We need to look VERY carefully at the specific wording of these attacks on Priest, who, in spite of his surname is in all probability quite human.

The apparent fact that he ‘mixed’ about 6 stories into the one incident in a speech, does not just raise the question about the particular incident, but ALSO raised the issue of the much larger number of incidents which in fact took place, if anything, combining the elements of those other incidents into ONE would reduce the impact of detailing 6 incidents separately.

I do take issue with falsehood, but it appears that apart from chronology and detailing, he was basically reporting truthful events, albeit in a convenient mixture. Would they be LESS damning if they were outlined in detail one by one ? Hardly. No..they would be MORE damning.

Does his colorful speech reduce the truth of the fact that in 1998-2001 while all crime was going DOWN in most areas of Sydney, GUN crime was SKYROCKETING in South Western Sydney among Lebanese ! (source. Hansard or government report I looked at a while back)

-Was the Lakemba police station shot up ?
-Did a large extended family of Lebanese swarm into and intimidate police at Bankstown ?
-is it in the interests of those who depend for their very political LIFE on the Muslim/Lebanese vote to discredit him ?

Priest is not even a cleric, let alone infallable, and indeed has to my mind demeaned his credibility by being lazy with the facts. But the criticisms I see, are scrounging grains of rice out of a beach full of sand. Mostly vexacious, and drip with animosity based on what one can only guess is ‘self interest’.

Well Thor why do not Muslims themselves do something about the hate and violence that we in Sydney have to suffer?At every turn we hear it both from Irfan ,Keyser Trad and Sheik Hilay equivications as to why Muslims don't condemn the hate and violence shown against us, "the infidels."Not one of them have out rightly condemned such attitudes.All we get is the usual leftist diatribe of Anglo racism and Muslims portraying themselves as the victims.

No other religion or belief system in modern times has caused so much angst and grief in the world,yet they would have us believe that it is the rest of the world at fault?

Peter Costello enunciated clearly,if you don't like our democratic freedoms,why bother coming here in the first place.Irfan and his cohorts sing the paises of Sharih law.Well what if I sang the praises of Nazism? Yes the left would go insane with rage!

Our free thinking society find the Muslim system repulsive to our belief system and yes,we should be allowed to express it!

To Mr Wobbles.

It must be so-o embarrassing when a man of the stature of Tim Priest puts his job on the line to tell the public what creatures like you would prefer that the public were ignorant about.

Tim Priest was scathing in his attack on lame duck Police Commissioner Ryan who’s term as head of the NSW Police is now seen to be a catastrophe. Tim did not need to “put pressure” on new Police Minister Michael Costa, because Costa had such respect for Tim that they met regularly so that Michael Costa could get the information he needed to try and get the NSW Police service functioning again. Michael Costa even took a train to Cabramatta and walked to the police station, something that his predecessor Whelan never bothered to do. Whelan was too busy telling everybody in the media that everything was just peaches in Cabramatta.

Alan Jones greatly enhanced his reputation when he decided to help Detective Sergeant Tim Priest to inform the public that the ordinary members of the NSW police service had been officially told by their commanders to ignore their oath of office. The fact that Priest and Jones are such good friends now does indeed tell you something about the integrity of both men. Every man and woman at the Cabramatta police station backed Tim Priest’s assertions when they took the unprecedented step of passing a motion of no confidence in their own station commander.

Please keep up your personal attacks upon Tim Priest. Mr Priest is now held in such high regard among the public of NSW that anybody who dares to throw mud at him is automatically regarded as being lower than a snake’s duodenum. Any cause that people such as you support becomes automatically on the nose with the NSW electorate.

Multiculturaliststs like yourself pretend that you are social progressives but in reality you are now the new Conservatives, desperate to maintain the failed status quo ante, while the real social progressives fearlessly point out the flaws in your muddled philosophy.

Arjay wrote, "Well Thor why do not Muslims themselves do something about the hate and violence that we in Sydney have to suffer?"

Probably for much the same reason that we don't do a whole lot about the hate that we have to suffer in this forum from mindless bigots like BOAZ_David, redneck, Arjay, Thor, Leigh and the rest.

Whether it extends to violence is difficult to say, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

There's actually no law against spouting the rubbish that they post. But there's no law that obliges us to give weight to it.

So Mike M sees any disagreement about his fantasy of a peaceful religion as the mindless rambling of racist bigots? seems Mike is just another diseased lefto who thinks this 'muslim problem' is caused by unfair socio economic factors, rather than the plan bad values and bad choices of the group in question. Yes, there's no law against free speech, would Mike like it otherwise?

I don't know if Tim Priest's claims were lies. Having someone disagree with your account of events is hardly automatic evidence that you lied, especially if they are part of an organisation you are criticising.

What I DO know is that he was right. The cronulla riots proved his main points.

Another real question is why the SMH felt the need to try and dig this stuff up?

Arjay, you need to search through some of the old Newspapers printed in Western World Countries during the nineteen thirtys, the majority of letters to the Editor were full of racist statements ,not unlike those you are fond of posting, the difference is, in the nineteen thirtys, it was Jews that were been kicked around by the local bigots, Hitler would have been comforted, by those letter writers, today it is people like Arjay who have a little knowledge of how Muslims live, who get enjoyment out of stiring up hatred, is in not time to stir up the truth, you need to grow up, while you write unfreindly posts a friendly army the Iraqi army are rounding up Sunni,s for execution, and our good friends the Americans are handing over prisoners who will have a bullet lodged in their head before the next day breaks, another fifty or so will have been shot because they were not members of the same God Club, those old letters would not be allowed to be published today because they were anti Jewish, so why do we say we have freedom of the press to write anti islamic propaganda, you tell me what has changed, maybe we have too many racists in positions of power,

Do you notice that all the "prominent" Muslims, such as Irfan, Wakim, and others, have so wimpishly disappeared from the discussion on this forum?

Only when they can see that ample support is coming from their fellow travelers, i.e., the multiculturalists, and the center-left liberals, do they dare to come out and defend their position. Otherwise, like the real cowards they are, they desert the "field of battle".

Go to my blog for more: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Redneck,
"Creatures" like me are delighted to hear you say that the Asian problem in Cabramatta has now officially been resolved.
It's a bit unfair however,to put Tim's integrity on a par with Mr "cash-for-comment/public toilet lurking" Jones.
I suspect now even Mr Jones has taken a step back since the allegations of lies have surfaced.

Nevertheless, The way I recall it is that Jones campaigned to get rid of Whelan and have him replaced by
Costa (after only 17 days in Parliament). Jones was privately promoting Costa as the next Premier and was
demonstrating his personal influence on the NSW government.

Yes, Costa did appoint Priest as his personal advisor on the Cabramatta situation.
However, at a secret meeting at Jones' home, the "gang-of-three" (Costa, Priest & Basham) actively conspired to
dump Ryan. Regardless of whether Ryan's departure was right or wrong, it's the process that alarms me.

The question remains - after all the rhetoric and incitement, what has really changed in Cabramatta or in the NSW Police Force?
Does the end always justify the means?
Is political corruption OK if you get what you want?

I guess I'll be among the first up against the wall when your neo-fascist Revolution comes along but despite all your diatribes in all
your posts, I am yet to see anything constructive.

It seems to me you just as much an extremist as those you so gleefully target.

I usually enjoy stirring your type up but it's just getting too easy these days.

"Well what if I sang the praises of Nazism? Yes the left would go insane with rage!"

Without actually mentioning it by name it appears by this sort of comment;
"Our free thinking society find the Muslim system repulsive to our belief system and yes,we should be allowed to express it!"

That you are coming quite close to the shining example of the famous fuhrer.

Tarring an entire group of people for the excesses of a few is not really the right way of solving the problem. Having a good go at the muslim population in general will not make people want to sit up and have a look at themselves and their "beliefs" as a whole or their notion of community. If you are being attacked you are more likely to fight back rather than be objective.

Always playing the race card and "why don't Australians like us" card while encouraging "the short skirts ask for it" mentality does nothing to help the cause either. Neither does keeping up the appearances of harbouring the thugs responsible for the revenge attacks at Cronulla. Such a "tight knit community" and no one knows anything? Hard to believe. Stop whingeing and become more pro active.

Just an aside,I have seen quite a few published comments from Anglo judges, lawyers and the like about young rape victims and what they were wearing, do we say that all Anglo people think certain outfits means she is asking for it? No I didn't think so, plank and eye people!

Tim Priest has replied to the allegations, and considering it is the Syd Morning Herald, you may be forgiven, it reads near as The Green Weekly.
I am surprised, it is on Peter Faris QC, his web site, Irfan would have definitely read it, but no commentary?
For everyone else: http://www.farisqc.observationdeck.org/?p=335#comments

Tim’s reply is down the bottom of the Commentary. Interesting and sounds a bit different than this article. But why would anyone be suprised.

You can't really blame someone for trying to make money out of a social phobia/ crisis. Media need bad news to sell and someone need to be the 'other'. Watch the top viewed articles on smh website: the most appaling titles are usually the most viewed.

Themistocles,

Your quotes are a typical example of the phobia in our society:

"Where all the Muslims on this forum like Wakim"
Joseph Wakim is not a Muslim, there are 70,000 Arab Christian Orthodox in Australia. Also Irfan is not an Arab but a Pakistani. Dawood is an Anglo blue eyed Muslim. Let me guess, you were the Director of Prejudice at SBS?

"they desert the field of battle"...

Nope, we are right here Mr Jihadist with a paper sword. I just can't see why would Lebanese gangs need to be addressed by us. Police, law enforcement and bad parenting are the key issues here.

FH

'I just can't see why would Lebanese gangs need to be addressed by us. Police, law enforcement and bad parenting are the key issues here.'

Of course mossie gangs have to be addressed by their fellow mossies. Like it or not they're all your brothers. I used to admonish my fellow aussie idiots doing nazi salutes and heil hitlers at the Oktoberfest why don't you. Why is it up to people in law enforcement to risk their necks dealing with it. When I had a problem with a mossie in the park his entire family would come over to egg him on not point out the error of his ways.

Here's a story of mossies policing mossies effectively. I lived in southern Germany. I had a few Turkish friends. The place was a home for many refugees from the Balkans. Anyway a mob of albanian mossie refugees arrived and began to cause havoc. Shoplifting, thieving, sexually assaulting young women. My friend was sexually assaulted. Usual stuff.

The Turks watched as the local cops ineffectively tried to deal with them, much the same way as we deal with our mossie gangs.

They told me that we have no idea on how to deal with errant mossies. So they formed a gang and beat the living crap out of the albanians. Problem solved. The Turks said that's the only thing they understand.

Maybe that's what we need here.

[Deleted for flaming. Poster suspended.]

FH

"Nope, WE ARE RIGHT HERE Mr Jihadist with A PAPER SWORD".

You needed a bit of prompting, like Irfan below your post, before you came on stage to strut and display your phony courage. And you ought to consider yourself, very, very lucky, that I only hold "a paper sword".

Indeed, my quotes were about Muslims, and not about Arabs, Pakistanis, or blue eyed Muslims. I don't know if Wakim is a Christian Arab or a Muslim, but as a staunch, fellow traveller, multiculturalist, he definitely pleaded his case in favour of the Muslim brotherhood.

Irfan, I think that you have misjudged most of the muslim bashing brigade on that one - I hope that you have. I have the impression that most will be against the bashing of innocents, many spoke against the bashing of innocents at Cronulla.

Quite frankly they generally spoke more strongly against the abuses by the rioters than you appear to have been willing to do on these pages regarding the gang violence by people of "middle eastern appearance" which lead up to and followed the riot.

What we won't see is the use of that incident by that crowd to urge for punative action against all people of the ethnic origin of the thugs, its not real convenient. For some the issue may be race but for most it appears to be a strong dislike of your religion. While you continue to think that skin colour is the issue and keep using the tired old "arm chair nazi" call you really are contributing little more to discussion than the mozzie bashing crowd.

If you want to make a difference talk about why you think some muslims don't appear to want to integrate (or convince me that is not the case). I'm hoping that you understand those issues better than me. Some of us here want to understand, we want to know if there are things we can do to make this work for all of us.

I think that you probably are a moderate who cares and who has passed a limit of tollerance for the continual mozzie bashing which ocurs here, they won't stop so maybe we just start talking around them and see what can be done. Don't forget all those readers who don't post who might also want to understand the issues facing muslims in Australia better (we already know about the christian fundy attacks).

RObert

Right on, Irfan.

If we are talking about butchers of humanity it is worth remembering that Slobodan Milosovic's Serbs were primarily Greek Orthodox Christians and most of the Kosovo Albanians they slaughtered were Muslim.

Religion is a poor predictor of violent behaviour, although half a dozen posters to this site seem to believe, contrary to the evidence, that they are synonymous.

But we don't get facts from them.

We get, endlessly reiterated, the same unsupported opinions.

Let's channel the late Eric Blair on the subject of endlessly reiterated, unsupported opinions, http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm/

OPENING CHANNEL TO THE SPIRIT WORLD...
All the humbler animals set to work to learn the new maxim by heart. CHRISTIANS GOOD, MUSLIMS BAD, was inscribed on the end wall of the barn, above the Ten Commandments and in bigger letters. When they had once got it by heart, the sheep developed a great liking for this maxim, and often as they lay in the field they would all start bleating "Christians good, Muslims bad! Christians good, Muslims bad!" and keep it up for hours on end, never growing tired of it.
CHANNEL CLOSED.

The lambs of God can continue bleating all they like, but the rest of us have more productive thoughts to occupy our minds.

So does Irfan or the other leftist do gooders know what had led up to the Cronulla violence?

I've seen and experienced this Muslim bile and hate myself.
The people at Cronulla have put up with Muslim racism for years.Their women were called Aussie sluts and many others were either intimidated or assaulted by professed Muslim gang members.

What broke the straw on the camel's back was the assault on a pregant woman,who was pushed on the ground and called an "Aussie slut" The life savers took umbridge to this and thus they were in turn,serverly assaulted and taken to hospital.

So now according to Irfan and the left wing media,it is all the fault of racists right wing armchair Nazis?Well Irfan,who are the real facists and Nazis that specialise in disinformation?

If Irfan and the so called moderates acknowledged the violence and hate that exists in their community,perhaps we would have a starting point of reconciliation,but alas they live in denial.

Arjay, so what you are saying is that if some thugs of Middle Eastern appearance attack you, the proper and correct response is to get totally plastered and stoned and then bash someone with a darker shade of skin than yours. Even if they are Bangladeshi Hindus or Afghan Parsis.

I'm so glad you aren't in Parliament. Then again, I doubt the Arjay Nazi Party would ever do well at any stage in the near future.

Keep trying, Arjay. It's people like you who make Muslim-haters look just so plain dumb.

To Mr Wobbles.

The serious crime problem in the Vietnamese ghetto of Cabramatta has not been solved because the place is still full of Vietnamese. But after Tim Priest exposed the total disinterest of senior police to do their jobs, one hopes that things are now better in Cabramatta.

Both Alan Jones and John Laws do have an immense amount of influence upon public opinion. When Laws and Jones indulge in a little self aggrandisement, such as in the infamous “cash for comment” scandal, I will give both of them a kick up the butt. But if Alan Jones does his job and uses his immense power for the public good, then I will give him the credit he deserves for that. I doubt if Alan Jones will distance himself from Tim Priest because of new allegations of lies, because he did not distance himself from Tim when there were old allegations of lies. Those old allegations were proven to just as big a fabrication as the so called “stolen generations.” Alan stood by Tim because he realised that Tim was a very courageous man who was taking an immense risk to inform the public, that senior police were more interested in improving their golf scores than protecting OUR society..

If Costa, Priest and Jones “conspired” to get rid of a police Commissioner, whose term in office had been a public catastrophe, I don’t see what you can complain about. That any police Commissioner could allow a situation to develop whereby senior regional command police officially told their police to refrain from making arrests, because they did not want their Crime Index statistics to look bad, is what should be “alarming” you.

Tim Priest has shown just how terrified our police force has become towards stepping on sensitive ethnic toes and how our pollies are terrified of 'offending' our Middle Eastern communities lest this should have grave consequences at the polling booths.

Irfan

I've said this before, I don't condone what happened at Cronulla. It could've been a decent demo but a few turned nasty. Even if it had been peaceful you would still be in full flight.

Being an old Cronulla boy myself I've experienced first hand what's been happening there for years. Nothing was ever done about it and the locals were frustrated.

I've got the Four Corners version 'riot' on video and will watch it soon but I wouldn't call the ABC completely impartial.

My brother was actually at the 'riot' and took stills and video. It's hardly a riot, he's currently tranferring it to DVD, want a copy? Sydney Laywers ain't it? Doesn't prove anything, he couldn't get close to the action because there was bugger all there.

I used to work in a German hospital. There, I've argued with REAL NAZIS, (they were more lucid than you) they were old men now but during the war they killed civillians on the Russian front. I also met, in Auschwitz, a survivor of 3 concentration camps and Mengele's regular selections who gave me a personal tour of the place, he dug the swimming pool there back in '44. Anyway, comparing us to nazis is stupid and just trivialises the whole arguement.

Finally it's not the colour of your skin, it's your ideology, how many times do we have to say it. I've dealt with blonde, blue-eyed mossie fruitcakes in the past too.

You can call us nazis and fruitcakes all you like, all one has to do is remember what your beliefs are mate.

You are truly incredible Irf

I suggest Joseph Wakim read Tim Priest's article again without a chip on his shoulder. Accept the premise that one must accept responsibility for one's actions and not defend the indefensible. Life today is about accepting and managing change and not forcing one beliefs and attitudes on others.

Peter Priest.

Though I have the same surname I have neither met or know Tim Priest.
P.P.

I can beleive the normality and intent of a man like Tim Priest to expose crime and right justice, as for Joseph Wakim what has he done in these areas?

Thor, the KKK analogy is apt. I use it because the best way to explain racism is to put it in terms of a white person being the perpetrator.

One has to do this because over the last thirty years we have been so brainwashed in the education system, that we believe that whites are the only cultures capable of racism. In reality, it is white cultures, particularly the north-west European cultures that are, by far, the most tolerant. We actually tolerate the intolerant!

The KKK analogy with regards to the Muslim community is relevant in the sense that, I'd say, around 90% of Muslims are KKK. This may sound harsh, but when you look at what their leaders say, and that there are no protests to have them removed - one concludes such comments are acceptable to Muslims.

I recall after the gang rapes in Sydney, an SBS crew (kind of ironic it was them) got bashed at the Lakemba mosque! They got some recordings of them asking q's about the rapes, and at one point a Muslim yells out "those girls were sluts anyway", to which the entire audience laughed.

Think about how filthy their morals must be, and that was in a religious place!

IRFAN IRFAN

Ironic you call Arjay a NAZI when you support Sharia, what a classic. It isn't Arjay that gives Muslim-haters (I don't believe there are any that hate on basis of them being a Muslim, it's behaviour Irfan) a bad name. You NEVER answer q's, you are a fraud.

But you did say one good thing, that a NAZI party wouldn't take off here. And why is that? Because we are tolerant Irfan.

Contrast this with how Palestinian "victims" have just voted in a genocidal regime, NAZI to the core, who are already talking about how men must have beard!

Irfan, that Cronulla was one day. Australians had never reacted that way, and after all the racism they suffered from Muslims who want to bash "Aussie skips".

To anyone interested...........

........I recently took part in a HREOC initiative regarding racism, where I got, for the first time a white had done it (as whites have been brainwashed into thinking only they are bigots) by having my story about racism I suffered while growing up in Fairfield in the 80's & 90's.

You have to go to the HREOC site and download a 6MB file, but it's worth it. Even the stories by Muslims of their experiences of racism is evidence for us.

I mean, one Iraqi Christian family, who came to Australia & moved to Shepparton told how they were treated really bad by the Iraqi Muslims there, but the Aussies were good.

Another Yemeni woman who married an Anglo said it was unheard of for a Yemeni to marry another Arab from outside Yemen let alone an Anglo. Their racism comes flying out in their stories about racism! Also, why the Muslims who participated stories were simply of a comment in the street (heresay) mine was of how Aussies at my school would get bashed all the time for being aussie, even stabbed occassionally (police reports to back me up to, even on the news once when Asians stabbed a teacher)

IRFAN

Still haven't answered my queries about why you are a SHARIA NAZI. How do you think you will be recieved when you support a value system that considers non-Muslims dirt, women 1/2 of men, gays killed. Explain Commendant.

Why don't you speak out about the xenophobia in your community?

How non-Muslims are turned away from the rock pools at Cronulla beach while burqa clad women swim, as it would make such women impure to share water with infidels?

How groups of young males form gangs based solely on ethnicity, and racially target others for sexual harassment, rapes, and bashings?

How Muslim leaders claim they need protection from a “redneck backlash” in the midst of numerous churches, not mosques, being burnt and shot at?

ANSWER IRFAN ANSWER

Covering up for racism, Ifran said. This is the problem with many ethnic group in Australia, they hide behind the racism slur all the time, in fact no matter what opinion an caucation has they are racists. The fact is, that there is far more racism in these minority groups, this is what the multi-culti movement wants.
I dont know where you live, but I live in the Sth West of Sydney, and believe racism is very much alive in the a lot of the Lebanese Muslim community. I have personally been a victim of there slurs.
Sure there is racism with some Aussies, but I tell you there is heaps with other groups.

Only the dysfunctional, intolerant call white Australians "racist".A defensive form? I do not know but for the past three decades Australians were being softened up to accept people who would never have been accepted as migrants.
Now we have big ethnic problems that will only get worse because of the continued immigration of people from the third world who will never fit our culture.
Sad to see , sad to see a country go down the same path as the rest of Europe because no one will stop the same thing happening here even though the facts are staring them in the face.

Mike... just a couple of pointers..

1/ Serbs are 'Serbian Orthodox' not Greek Orthodox.

2/ On the Christians good/Muslims bad ..not quite.. in fact far from the truth.. which is...

CHRISTIANS= unworthy sinners saved by undeserved Grace, in Christ. Saved but not perfected.. a work in progress.

MUSLIMS (and the rest)= Lost sheep whom God is seeking, and searching for in order that they might be reconciled to Himself.

You must avoid confusing passionate statements of position about IDEAS, i.e. Sharia law, with a hateful attitude towards Muslims in general. I don't know what it is, but it seems some of us simply cannot distinguish between "disagreement and passionate advancing of a position of self interest/preservation" with 'hating'.

If this is the case, then it has to be said that MikeM and Irfan etc.. HATE all of us who they disagree with. Mike.. help us out here.. do you HATE us ?

Its wonderful that we can exchange ideas here, in freedom. If one tried this on the Muslim Village forum they will ban you within 1 day.
That forum is the epitomy of how 'Sharia' would be in Australia. We of this forum would be the first victims of an Islamic Inquisition.

Yet here.. F.H. and Irfan, Salam and Nayeefa etc are quite free to express their ideas.. and we are quite free to attack them.
That is called 'freedom and democracy'. Long may it rule.

We don't hate you Irfan,hate is a wasted emotion.We are just trying to needle the Muslim community into being more pro-active in stopping this violence.Presently the Muslim community is just being non-commital and silent on many issues of violence in their community.All we hear is excuses.I know our law enforcement agencies are next to useless in NSW,but your community could take a far more pro-active role.

Desperately need people representing ethnic groups to answer a survey!

I'm a Finnish girl writing a Thesis about effects of ethnicity on employment in Australia. Chose the country 'cause I accomplished my practical training in Sydney last year. So if someone's kind enough, contact me pearl80@jippii.fi, and I'll send you the survey. Filling takes just a couple of minutes, it'd be a great help!

Well, when you view this Video from an Arab Psychologist, and read her article, yes, {HER} and the rest seems familiar:
This is not only unique to the Arab minds as it seems. Others have delusions of grandeur also. Leftitude I think?
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/95/

Important for up and budding Sociologists to view.

Hi Everyone

Go to this site http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1142744400&en=250f345328fd1fc7&ei=5059&partner=AOL.

An eye-opening interview with a brave woman.

Samdin

Thanks for the link. Very interesting article and as you say a very brave lady. And more power to Al Jazeera television for broadcasting the interview.

I think this is what we westerners need to see more of - Muslims (or former Muslims) looking critically at their religion. Islam is in need of reformation and people like Dr. Wafa Sultan are a good start.

I would be interested to know what Fellow Human and Dawood think about this article.

Regards

with cronulla its worth remembering the people protesting against the islamic thuggery were drunk , where as the payback went on for about a week and was SOBER remorseful and revoltingly calculated

Irfan has just got really annoyed with us because he doesn't like hearing the truth.Well I'll tell you all again why there is this urgency by Muslims to at least have some of their Shariah laws passed by our Parliament.

You see,I have contacts in the Taxi industry and many of their Muslim drivers are suffering under the equality of our divorce laws.Yes and guess what,if you have more than one wife,you really get taken to the cleaners.Muslim women for the first time can divorce their men and take the assets.

As mentioned previously just before Christmas 2005 my son witnessed about 20 Middle Eastern men tring to gain entry to the Greenwood Pub at North Sydney.About 6 Police turned up and the thugs just pushed them around and intimidated them.So the Police just backed off waited for them to disperse.No backup was called for.Now if these were white Anglo thugs theywould be all arrested put in gaol and find their pictures all over the front page of the Daily Telegraph.

Is there a double standard here? I have since learned that many of these Middle Eastern thugs run protection rackets by going into Pubs or Night Clubs,trashing them and extorting protection money from the owners.

Unless we stop having a PC attitude to this crime problem,it will only get much worse and more people like Irfan have to start admitting to the scale of this problem.

To Arjay.

I can indirectly confirm your information that Muslim gangs target nightclubs for extortion money.

I recently worked on a building site with a Muslim man of Turkish origin, who also works as a security guard on Friday and Saturday nights, for a Lebanese owned security guard business. He came in cranky one Monday morning and said that when he had reported for duty at a prestigious City nightclub on Friday night, the manager asked him to leave, because the nightclub did not want to do business with his employer any more.

My co worker snorted that the nightclub manager must be out of his mind. He told me that the last time that this had happened, his employers had sent a gang of Pacific Islanders around to the nightclub to trash the place. My co worker thought that this was very funny.

When I told him that he should get a new employer, because he was obviously working for criminals, all I got from him was a blank stare of incomprehension. To him, if an Aussie nightclub refuses to be stood over for protection money by Lebanese "security" companies, and suffers the consequences, the fault is obviously with the stupid skips.

Personally, I do not want anything to do with people like this who's concept of what is right or wrong behaviour is diametrically opposed to my own people's culture. Maybe this is normal behaviour in Turkey or Lebanon, but I thought that Australia had an Army to keep people who think like this out of the place.

Mein Kampf is a best seller in Turkey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,1447209,00.html

When Irfan calls people 'Nazi' he should carefully assess which people tirelessly publish virulent anti-semitic propaganda, want to see a whole Nation destroyed and scream death to Jews at every opportunity.

This article about the murder of Jews by Muslims in France is from Mark Steyn whom English papers now are too scared to publish.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn26.html

Its a sickening irony, and my opinion of Irfan, whom I looked to for leadership, has fallen even further. I'm not sure whether he is worth speaking with anymore :(

Martin Ibn-Warraq is correct in that Irfan isn't worth communicating with, he is too defensive when the Muslim community leads strong, firm, leadership.

I encourage Irfan, who has made it clear - and wasn't even embarressed, that he is a supporter of Sharia, read up on the women in the Muslim world who are fighting tooth & nail for the rights western women take for granted.

I noticed there was a link a few posts above about that Egyptian woman who denounced Islamic teachings regarding women, Irfan should take a look.

He should also read up on the strong Malaysian woman who is fighting that nations detestable Sharia provisions regarding divorce, about how the woman has absolutely no say in her own divorce. This type of barbarism is astonishing, and to be honest, I'm surprised that the articulate Irfan supports such a disgusting code of ethics.

It is such women that we need to encourage further, but sadly such women are heretics in Islam because the hardliners have the teachings on their side. Women are inferior, they are half the value of men, and I don't know how the Muslim world will have a reformation similar to what the Europeans went through 500 years ago.

Not without bloodshed anyway.

On the Sharia, Irfan, do you believe that there are 72 dark eyed Houris waiting for you? What if the person is gay? Or female? Oh, that's right. I saw a Hadith recently where Mohammed says that most of those in hell are women, because they are evil.

Nice bloke.

Seriously though, how can a religion say don't drink alcohol or engage in pre-maritial sex, but then have it's eternal paradise as a BROTHEL AND A BOTTLESHOP

Arjay and Redneck

I worked as a security guard at a shopping centre that also incorporated radio stations in it's tower blocks.

I was there one day when 4 heavily muscled mid east males with allah akbar medallions and or crescents around their necks arrived and took the lift up to one of the higher floors.
I was right next to the lifts when they did this and being the racist armchair nazi that I am I reported it to the nearby security office.

By the time they were leaving the building we had guessed correctly where they were going and got a call from the radio station that catered to the dance(techno)music crowd by broadcasting and holding large dance parties.

Guards went to the office, the bloke who ran the station, a coal black negro was the colour of ash. He said the lebs made an offer he couldn't refuse, we will sell drugs at your dance parties or you cop it. This was in 1999/2000, long before Priest's article came out, talk to anyone in the club industry and they'll tell you its rife and run largely by leb mossies. Maybe we should send Joe Wakim and Irf in there to sort it out. Don't worry they're only armed with Glocks and lefty sentiments.

I saw part of a traffic warning message last night "One third of traffic accidents happen ..", the sign did not change in time for me to see the rest but it did leave me wondering about the other two thirds. What factor is involved in two thirds of all accidents - maybe sober drivers, maybe not being tired, maybe driving within the speed limit. Individual examples tell part of the story, not the whole.

It certainly appears that ethnic Lebanese are conspicuous by their representation in organised crime in Sydney. On the Gold Coast over the weekend two bikie gangs reportedly had a shoot out at a public event - are the Hells Angels and the Finks Lebanese mossie gangs? Not from what I've heard. Should we discrimate against the ethnic groups represented in bikie gangs which have a long history of lawless behaviour and an utter lack of respect for values needed to keep society functioning? Gangs which use intimidation and threat of reprisal to maintain their power.

A former coworker of mine used to drink with members of one of the gangs from time to time and some of the tales he told of their activities were very chilling. Not an ethnic issue, rather a law and enforcement issue.

R0bert

A question for Benjamin, Can you tell me why members of a certain God Club are continueing to spread false information about Muslims? the reason I ask is, those who you bastardize are not returning insults aimed towards your God Club, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, you react when Muslims respond to being bastardized, maybe you can tell us why the majority of owners who owned those Newspapers all 128 of them who published the cartoons of Mohammed, all belong to the same God Club, so who are the real bastards, It is said, "what goes around comes around" it may be only a matter of time before the boot is on someone elses foot, think about that, the seeds of racial/religious hatred you sow will grow into a monster that will turn on you ,

Hi Scout,

I actually like the article and I can relate to the following statement:
"Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries"

Thats exactly what many Muslims and Islamic reformists think and promote.

Mangotree01,

Excellent comment. I find it unethical and illegal for some paranoid characters on these forums to promote violence against Muslims.
I guess its only me who is seeing things.

Fellow Human

You are not the only one who notices the promotion of hate against Islam - I'm not so sure about violence, but the level of vilification that the anti-Islam brigade get away with is alarming.

The best way to combat it is to use the 'delete' facility at the bottom of each post. If enough of us complain then action will most certainly be taken. However, it is a bit of a game. For example, if a poster generalises and doesn't name specific posters then they will get away with it. Hence Numbat and his 'pagan religion' comments - he is careful not to accuse anyone directly, eg 'I blame your evil religion not you'.

So don't let the detractors deter you - I'm not. In fact an advantage of reading these diatribes assists me in defining my own beliefs and honing my skills. I have learnt when to bother with a response and when to let the offensive poster hang him or herself on their own vile words.

The ranters are certainly proving the validity of the 'fear factor' being used to promote bigotry.

PS

I am pleased that you read the article about Dr. Wafa Sultan - I am aware that there are many Muslims and former Muslims trying to bring Islam into balance with the 21st century.

Paraphrasing Voltaire: I am not religious but I will defend to the death a persons right to their beliefs - as long as they respect mine. I know I have attached a condition, however having received a lot of abuse on this forum feel compelled to add one.

Cheers

Scout: Unfortunately I don't have registration for the NY Times, but remember seeing an interview with her online somewhere. I agree, she is a brave and spirited woman.

For me, I already come from a 'secular' background and have chosen Islam instead, whereas she is the other way around. That does not mean that specific ideals she discusses are incompatible, however. Just because Islam uses different 'sources' does not mean that it is automatically opposed to the goals of the secular-humanist tradition. I don't see why they cannot work towards mutual goals.

I would be interested to read any of her work, if it is published and actually substantiative instead of cheap japs and ramblings like many "ex-Muslim" stuff is these days. I am currently studying things from within the Islamic tradition, and those I read/study currently also fall firmly within that camp, though do this through access to the classical sources, works of past scholars and classical methodologies of exegesis. They are also firmly rooted in Western thought and such too.

It's very interesting to see views across the board, including those here at OLO.

Politics is politics but reality bits anyway:

Emirates Aided Kin of Palestinian Militants
By JULIA PRESTON

In the last four years the United Arab Emirates has provided substantial financial support, through its Red Crescent Society, to families of Palestinians, militants as well as civilians, who have been wounded or killed by Israeli forces, according to Red Crescent documents.
The United Arab Emirates is a federation of seven small states including Dubai, where a government-owned company was due to take over some American port operations. Facing intense Congressional opposition, the company said recently that it would sell its operations in the United States to an unrelated American company within six months. ….

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/20/international/middleeast/20emirates.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

We've seen similar debate on other forums, whereby anecdotal evidence, quoting extreme views (from a religious text or outspoken political figure), and name slinging seems to be all the evidence we need to form opinions of social trends and thereby condemn a segment of our population, and the argument was just as fruitless- http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=148
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3999

At least Thor made an attempt at statistical evidence (though the link was dead).

Undeniably, some incidents of violence that are reported as perpetrated by Muslims, are disturbing. I was disgusted to see the cheering in the streets of Iran in reaction to the September 11 attacks. Additionally, it does not help any debate to throw around terms such as “Nazi”, “Racist”, or “Bleedinghearts”

The article's main point, that reports of crime in Australia are being tied to Muslim populations for political or popularist reasons, is essentially the view of the Anti Discrimination Board, who have found that since we have been getting our “sexed up” articles, discrimination against Muslims has increased dramatically-http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/pages/adb_raceheadlines .

A more accessible, though less rigorous report on this is-http://www.brisinst.org.au/resources/brisbane_institute_kabir_moore_muslim.html

The problem in searching for the connection between Islam and crime, is that crime statistics are virtually non-existent on the race/religion/birthplace/ethnicity of perpetrators.

However, the statistics we do have don’t show this connection; crime is an activity in all communities that is performed by a small minority of people-http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/publications/seminar/Ethnic%20Minorities%20and%20Crime%20in%20Australia.pdf

One can pick and choose statistics as easily as media reports, but-

1)Sexual assaults are mostly committed by people known to the victim, and occur in higher rates in country regions compared to the city.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/INTGUIDE/SP/ViolenceAgainstWomen.htm

2)“Over the 24 months to December 2001, trends in recorded crime in Cabramatta for all major violent
and property offence categories were either downward or stable.”- NSW Bureau of Crime
Statistics and Research
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/cjb70.pdf/$file/cjb70.pdf

3)From 2000-2001- assaults increased most in- Wollongong, South Sydney, Campbeltown, Wagga Wagga, and Lake Macquarie (measured in 100s of incidents). The list is for increased number of incidents, not increased rate- from the numbers on the lists, the increased rates are highest in country areas; Wagga Wagga, Wyong, Goulburn, and Griffith.
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/cjb67.pdf/$file/cjb67.pdf

Wibble ,you can quote all the stats you like,but who compiled them and what were the parameters that defined the palitable facts only for left wing consumption?

Just last Saturday we again see in Sydney Canterbury Middle Eastern men again rioting and bashing anyone of Anglo appearence.Again the police were too afraid to arrest anyone.Morris Iemma wants to use water cannon.Why not simply arrest them like other criminals in our society?

Now if the Skips were to behave in such a fashion,they would find their pictures all over the front page of the Daily Telegraph and shamed.

The likes of the ABC paint a picture of racist Anglos at Cronulla,yet after the revenge attacks we see police protecting the Cronulla locals from violent attacks.

Why weren't the police putting a cordon around Lakemba,protecting the Muslims from the evil marauding Anglo skips.Yes,because the skips did not initiate the aggression.Four Corners only told half truths.

There is a simple solution to this impasse,ie for the likes of Irfan to admit there is a problem in their community and work with the police in bringing back law and order to NSW.

MichaelK,

Thank you for bringing us back to the spirit of the article with the link you provided. It confirms Tim Priest 's view.

Since the end of the british and French colonialism, Arabs emerged as the US best friend and allies in the region by giving the keys to global energy sources to US companies (some have exclusive operations right for the next 50 years) and by re-investing the Oil money in the US economy which practically meant the US was getting energy for free (Arab investment in the US exceeds USD 1.3 Trillion).

But the article instead talks about money given to charity that went to help palestinians in distress, ignoring the fact that many other charity organisations run and fund projects in Gazza (including Finnish and Danish Aid).

To RObert

During my misspent youth, I lived in a doss house in Balmain, with the President of the Sydney chapter of the Hells Angels. They used to hold club meetings in the house, so I got to know them fairly well.

I would characterise their personalities as being primarily immature and not real bright. Add to that, a conviction that violence should be used as a first resort in any innocuous confrontation, a really serious self esteem problem, a giant chip on their shoulder, a belief that they are not really part of society, a paranoid complex that promotes the idea that society is oppressing them, a conviction that the world owes them a living, and last but not least, a John Wayne complex.

They think and act just like Muslim men.

If you would not encourage the immigration of Hells Angels (or any other form of badass bikers) into Australia, then by the application of the same logic, you should not support the immigration of Muslims. The end result on OUR society if both groups are encouraged to come here will be exactly the same.

Arjay

do you have a source or link for that bashing story mate ?

REDNECK
you continue to be a source of wonderment to me... you are quite articulate, get up very early.. presumably are involved in the construction field.. mis-spent your youth, associate with Hells Angels :) kind-of....

F.H. hope all is well with you, one of my other gym buddies is half Malay/Aussie.. mum is Muslim, and he was a scoundrel one day, put a little toy pig in the freezer.. freaked the mum out :) Hope you always realize that its not 'you' being attacked by my diatribes.

DAWOOD.. I truly feel you need to look more closely at the details/fine print of Islam mate.. just yesterday we all most likely heard about a former muslim in Afghanistan who is now on trial for his life because he left Islam for Christ.. That 'is' Sharia and you know it.

I repeat and emphasise, that if Islam is not the only way of Salvation, then it is unneccessary or is simply 'one of many choices' re religion. But clearly that is not the message it presents, which of course raises the question of the veracity of the message and its messenger. Wakey wakey mate.

WIBBLE you should research the crime stats for South Western Sydney compared to those for the rest of the city, quite revealing. 1998-2001 while all other types of crime including gun crime were decreasing across Sydney, SWS rates skyrocketed.

To all others, no matter the diversity or intensity of views, I personally value and appreciate your presence here.

Have a great day all.

Mangotree1

Where did I promote violence against Muslims? You obviously didn't read my post properly. If you read it, you will see that I am all for Muslims reinterpreting their religion to come into this century, but that all those who try are correctly labelled heretics.

This is because, unlike Christianity where the church got Christians to do bad things in the name of God (because only they could read latin: when Luther published it everyone could read Christ's words themselves, which contain no violent thoughts) in Islam, there really are many many horrible teachings, where one's duty is to kill infidels, where non-Muslims are to be second-class citizens, where women are worth half of men.

Don't believe me, don't ever believe what people write here, read the Koran & Hadiths yourself.

I don't really understand your question, but I think your asking me if I'm religious? No, I'm not.

I, personally, haven't seen any dissemination of Islam apart from Muslims themselves, who quote nonsense like "There is no compulsion in religion" without telling you that ALL Muslim scholars read those according to a concept known as ABROGATION. This states that anything later in the Koran which contradicts earlier passages, go with the later one.

If you know anything about Mohammed, you will know that while starting out, he preached tolerance of all, and so on, but when he gained power he massacred Jewish tribes, had people assassinated, and so on. A famous Hadith tells of Mohammed's glee at being brought the head of a famous poet who denigrated him.

Somewhat similar to those who yell "Allahu-Akhbar" while severing the heads of criminal infidels in Iraq.

As for your comment on newspapers, you need to read widely about how it's not back-alley, marginal papers (like the ones published cartoons) but prominent mainstream Islamic papers that publish far worse cartoons of anti-semitism, anti-western sentiment.

I agree with your last comment to, those who sow hatred seeds, like madrassa's who tell pre-pubescent boys that the greatest honor is to kill infidels, or how killing apostates is fine, will get whats coming.

The most revered cleric, after Mohammed, Khoemeini of Iran, took a few 9 year old wives when he came to power in 1979. No Muslims have ever protested that Islamic tenet that a girl is a woman at age nine, which is quite despicable. Legalised paeophilia won't protect such men's souls.

I saw a doco recently, about a mosque in England, where a family took the Imam to court for molesting their boy. Now, one would think, and it happens here, that all the parisheners would support the family, but what happened was sickening. They smashed their car, burnt down their house, they had non-stop death threats, and eventually called the case off.

This is in England, so you can imagine how bad paedophillia is in Islamic nations. People think it's just Christians because that's all you hear, but other cultures aren't even prepared to acknowledge it yet is all.

You need to know, too, things like, how, after the gang rape trials, n SBS crew went to Lakemba mosque to ask them what they thought. They were bashed, which happens often when news crews come into contact with Muslims, but before they were bashed, they filmed some great examples of Muslim racism.

They asked what they thought of the rapes, with one Muslim yelling out "they were all just sluts anyway" at which point everyone in the mosque burst out laughing.

Think about what that says about their morals, not all of course, but a great many. Is this pushing hate of Muslims? I don't think so. It's just a fact mangotree.

Read about the man in Afghanistan who is being executed for becoming Christian. Or how, Muslims protest worldwide over cartoons, yet have never protested about cartoons depicting Jews, Christians as animals. Or how Muslims protest when a US soldier threw a Koran, yet Saudi Arabia openly admits to BURNING bibles it finds at its ports. Christianity is illegal there you see.

Grow up, surely you can see who the intolerant ones are?

Boaz: Who are you to maintain that practising Muslims don't "know" what Shariah is? The one thing in your view (and others) that makes Islam what is is - Muslims themselves are completely ignorant of it? It doesn't make sense mate.

The fact that you (and others) continue to maintain that Shariah is a huge monolithic block, without nuance or difference, is what astounds me the most. It denies the essence of the Islamic legal/interpretive tradition - of which the majority is based squarely upon scholars understanding, as well as established precedent (as all legal traditions are).

The fact that you feel the need to use Shaykh bin Google to look up badly translated hadith online, or extreme news articles and point to it as "proof" of anything is downright embarassing, especially when it is simply one among many others that could teach the exact opposite. But by refusing to see how the Islamic tradition understands, and more importantly USES these references, you are being circular.

"Your" Islam is not what everyday Muslims believe and practise. "Their" Islam comes from the organic tradition they have been surrounded in, exposed to by their family and others, which is often the polar opposite to what you post. No one is denying that there are Muslim extremists who say and do repulsive things. If you wanted to combat them truly, you would see what those from within the religious tradition are doing to deny them their fake legitimacy.

The fact that you puport to know "real" Islam, as opposed to those who have lived it, grown up surrounded by it, studied it from those who lived it is nothing but complete balderdash.

You expect others to honestly believe that you not only know your OWN religion inside out - but also another? Without bias? Another that is quite obviosuly doctrinally different in many respects to the religious belief you share and based on different concepts, as well as source texts, amongst other things.

These posts are getting old fast, and I don't believe I am the only one who thinks this.

Humanitarian aspects of HAMAS are a fig leaf used by the EU to continuingly exercise its influence in a region as the US and Israel demanded cutting the ties with terrorist organizations, Fellow_Human.

And prince Charles is famous for dancing in the UAE as well as too many of Australian establishment there.

Probably, inextricability of human assistance and pro-terrorism military acts makes Hamas-like organizations as much popular in Muslim world as a variety of aspects contemporarily re-considering by the Conference on the Crusades attracted a Christian world past millenniums

Hello Boaz,

Thanks for your well wishes and no I know its not personal. You have a grudge against Islam and hate all Muslims evenly :-) The pig trick was a bit cruel although for your reference many Egyptian Christians don't eat ham and they circumsise their boys. I guess their 'meaning interpretation' of Jesus (pbuh) hadith is contextual:-)

Benjamin,

What kind of brain washing material are you reading and or sniffing?
I am at the point of laughter at your last postings you are becoming worse than coach!

"Massacred Jewish tribes"...So why did they always live in Muslim countries? Why did they prosper in Muslim countries and why did they always hide from their persecuters (including the famous Spanish conquest) amongst Muslims?

Its one thing to create a BS but to eat it and say it "It tastes good" is weird.

Dawood

In your post to Boaz you said "The fact that you puport to know "real" Islam, as opposed to those who have lived it, grown up surrounded by it, studied it from those who lived it is nothing but complete balderdash." - the fact is, many who have lived it, grown up surrounded by it and studied it from those who lived it HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT AND ABANDONED ISLAM.

Sorry David ,I thought you knew being Sydney centric.It was a Rugby league game last weekend and the Canterbury Middle Eastern supporters rioted.It's been in all the Sydney papers.They also bashed people on the trains.Aparently Morris Iemma is going to have a riot squad of 150 police at their next game.Why should we be paying for this nonsense?

The rioting that began at Sundays Bulldogs game began by Lebanese Muslim males harrasing two girls. Those around took offense at the lewd behaviour of these males and said something then the bashing started.

These are Muslims living in Australia - not Afganistan or Iran. This is the type of Muslim male we are dealing with in Sydney. It is not the tolerant, peaceful, moral people we hear F_H and Ifran portray as the character of Islam. If it were only true. These boys attend Mosque, and are protected by the Muslim community. Police are threatened if they attempt to arrest them by sheer weight of numbers coming to these criminals defense. That is why the announcement of 150 riot police are now rostered to attend Bulldogs games.

It is all very well talking about Bikie gangs of the past. But they never pretended to be a World Religion, that is why they were defiant against religion by the name "Hells Angels". But I can say they didn't behave like cowards toward women.

redneck, would you then ban everybody who rode a motorbike (or even everybody who liked Harley's) from coming to Australia? That seems to be what many of you are proposing in regard to Muslims. I might be happy to ban everybody with a proven ties to an Outlaw bikie gang just as I'd happily do something about others with proven associations to terrorist organisations (be they Catholic, Muslim, Orthodox etc).

philo, the shooting incident I refered to reportedly occured last weekend - not real far in the past. The stuff I heard about from the guy I worked with was further back but what I've heard elsewhere since does not lead me to think that much has changed. Many of the attrocities reportedly carried out by gang members seemed to revolve around devaluing and humiliating women. "Aussie slut" may not have been a factor but the aim and approach sounds pretty much the same.

There are some people who think more highly of themselves by expressing their contempt for the rest of us and our laws. Not all muslims and not just muslims - quite simple really.

R0bert

Arjay, you say "Wibble ,you can quote all the stats you like,but who compiled them and what were the parameters that defined the palitable facts only for left wing consumption?"

I can quote all the stats I like, and so can you, but have so far not done so. Instead, you quote your "contacts in the Taxi industry".

I struggle to interpret the rest of your question; my best interpretation is that you questioned the source and bias of my statistics. If you had gone to the links, you would see I'm using Parliamentary articles with ABS sources, and the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research(actually, I quoted the Bureau so you didn't even have to go that far).

Conceivably I could be accused of bias, selecting the statistics that suit "my" argument. The response to this would be to find your own. BOAZ_David sort of attempts this by saying "WIBBLE you should research the crime stats for South Western Sydney compared to those for the rest of the city, quite revealing", though didn't actually provide a source for that citation.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_crime_stats lets you select stats from different regions, crimes and periods, so if anyone wants to do some research, go for it.

I used this site to examine the 17 major crimes (their definition) from 1998-2001, comparing the Outer South Western LGA to all of Sydney, as BOAZ_David suggested.

These were the results (haven't included crimes with no trend change)-

Outer South Western-
Assault up 4.8%,
Domestic Assault up 4.6%,
Robbery without weapon up 13.6%,
Break enter dwelling down 9.2%,
Break and enter non-dwelling up 10.9%,
Motor vehicle theft up 3.8%,
steal from motor vehicle up 16.1%,
Fraud up 11.3%,
Malicious damage up 3.7%.

All Sydney-
Assault up 3.6%,
Domestic Assault up 7.4%,
Robbery without weapon up 8.1%,
Break enter non-dwelling up 4.3%,
steal from motor vehicle up 7%,
Fraud up 12.7%

Even accounting for the Outer South Western figures being included by Sydney figures, this is hardly supportive that "1998-2001 while all other types of crime including gun crime were decreasing across Sydney, SWS rates skyrocketed".

Using the link from my previous post (http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_crime_stats), I looked at crime rates for the last five years up to the last reported stats from the site (from Jan 2000 to Dec 2004).

I considered rates of Murder, Assault (not domestic), Sexual Assault, Indecent assault, and Malicious Damage. Thankfully, murder is such a low incident crime no statistically significant trends can be established.

For the other crimes, I looked at all the broad regions in NSW, and the broadest category of regions within Sydney. When there is no change in the trend for any of these crimes, I have written no change. I have only included crimes with each region for which there is a trend;

Central West-Malicious Damage up 5.5%

Far West-no change

Hunter-Assault up 5.4%, Sexual Assault up 7.2%, Indecent Assault up 5.2%

Illawarra-Malicious damage down 1.8%

Mid North Coast-Malicious damage up 2.9%

Murray-Malicious damage up 2.9%

Murrumbidgee-Assault down 4.6%, Indecent Assault down 7.8%, Malicious Damage up 3.1%

North Western-Malicious Damage up 5%

Northern-no change

Richmond-Tweed-Sexual Assault up 11.3%

South Eastern-no change

Sydney:

Blacktown-Assault down 1.5%

Canterbury-Bankstown-no change

Central Northern-no change

Central Western-no change

Eastern Suburbs-Sexual Assault up 11.7%, indecent assault up 9.7%, Malicious damage down 1.4%

Fairfield Liverpool-Indecent Assault up 1.7%, Malicious damage down 2%

Gosford Wyong-Sexual Assault up 10.5%, Malicious damage up 5.1%

Inner city-Indecent assault up 6.8%

Inner Western Sydney-no change

Lower Northern Sydney-no change

Northern Beaches-Assault up 2.6%, Malicious damage down 5.9%

Outer South Western Sydney-no change

Outer Western Sydney-malicious damage down 2.3%

St George-Sutherland-no change

To me, the standout upward trends are in malicious damage (in many areas), and sexual and indecent assaults in the Eastern Suburbs and Hunter, and sexual assaults in Gosford-Wyong and Richmond-Tweed.

I'm open to a serious alternative, but given the media alarm at Islamic crime but the lack of evidence from these statistics, it seems to me the premise of the article that stories about those "evil Arabs" are being sexed up remains viable.

wibble,
In the report did it show the ethnic origin or reigious affiliation of the offender. Knife related crime, rape, armed robbery and assult by Middle Eastern males doesn't only happen in Canturbury - Bankstown they travel outside the area. Cronulla, Maroubra, George St City are not in Western Sydney nor is Annangrove. So merely identifying areas where crimes are reported is not a genuine or authorative comparison.

Dear Wibble...
you stats are most interesting:

1/ They 'begin' at a period where gun crime in South Western Sydney had SKYrocketed over the previous 5 yrs or so, relative to the rest of Sydney
2/ "No Change" suggests that the extremely disproportionately HIGH levels observed from 1998 to 2001 are STILL THE SAME i.e. disproportionately high.

Without looking at it more closely that is my immediate reaction to your post.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that you made the effort to gather that information, because I for one will not object to truth, and always seek to ensure that truth is the foundation of my own, though I have made a couple of embarassing blunders.

I don't see much value in the linking of particular crime to ethnic groups, I see a much bigger picture. Anecdotal accounts of ethnic behavior just serve to re-inforce our prejudices usually, I prefer to examine fundamental doctrines and history for a better basis of making social policy.

The tension and verbal conflict in the forum is healthy, divergent views cause people to search out facts and info.. lets all keep it up.

BD

"I don't see much value in the linking of particular crime to ethnic groups, I see a much bigger picture. Anecdotal accounts of ethnic behavior just serve to re-inforce our prejudices usually, I prefer to examine fundamental doctrines and history for a better basis of making social policy." that first bit looks a bit like you are on the run :) from a difficult trend in the facts.

The stats presented seem to be a valid response to claims by many of a serious rise in crime levels in areas with high muslim (and particularly Lebanese Muslim) populations. A legitimate and telling response to a lot of anecdotal accounts of ethnic behaviour put forth by yourself and other mossie bashers in an attempt to re-inforce prejudices.

Examine fundamental doctrines and history - that makes some sense but also requires that you work from reasonable assumptions. You have to assume that the group you are dealing with are representative of the groups who's fundamental doctrines and history you are examining. When I consider how much western culture has changed during my lifetime it's hard to be to confident that history is a good indicator. You would also have to ignore the idea that those who choose to move to another country and culture might not have the strongest ties to the culture and doctrines which you are basing your judement on. Middle eastern muslims who choose to come to Australia may not be representative of those who hold power in their homelands and they may well be quite a different group to those who choose to move to Europe. Gets pretty difficult when you think about it doesn't it.

Might be better to dealing with those who reject this country and it's laws and letting everyone else live within those laws regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

R0bert

To RObert.

Outlaw bikie gangs make no secret of their anti social cultural values. Muslims make no secrets of their cultural values either. These Muslim values are obviously inimical to the well being of the Australian people. For instance, Muslims believe that people who have sex outside of marriage should be stoned to death. I am a person who has had sex outside of marriage. Could you please explain to me why I should allow people into my country who wish to stone me to death?

If you claim that only an insignificant minority fundamentalist Muslims believe this, then on what information (other than wishful thinking) do you base your claim on? To the best of my knowledge, all Muslims believe that Sharia Law is the literal word of God, and God must be obeyed.

I am only scratching the surface of the values, attitudes and beliefs which Muslims have, which are fundamentally incompatible with Western secular thought. How about the Muslim belief that apostates must be put to death? Do you really want people to immigrate to YOUR country who are so intolerant that they actually believe that any Muslim who embraces another religion must be murdered?

Once again, if you think that it is only an insignificant minority of Muslims who believe that, upon what information do you hold that view?

Any social group which openly endorses the murder of people who do not believe in what they believe, is more dangerous and psychotic as the most immature and socially inept biker gang. At least biker gangs usually limit their violence between themselves; Muslims declare war on all non Muslims. A recent article on Saudi Arabia in “TIME” magazine informed it’s readers that in Saudi schoolbooks, there are articles which say to their children “all infidels are your enemies.” Guess who’s money built the Auburn Mosque?

Fortunately, Australia does not have 300,000 badass bikers in Australia fermenting rapes, drive by shootings, civil strife, “honour killings, terrorism and drug trafficking. Instead we have 300,000 Muslims. Personally, I would feel safer with the 300,000 bikers

Wibble.A lot of crime,even assaults go unreported because police don't have the numbers,get bogged down in red tape and don't address many complaints.Many people just give up in frustration.Most rapes for example go unreported.Unless someone presses charges the crime does not go in the stats.Police often advise people not to press charges because the offenders are under age and the judge will let them off.This happened to my son a few years ago.

Nothing this Iemma Govt tells us can be believed.I can manipulate stats to tell story I please and Govts are more adept than I at this deception.The devil is always in the detail; i.e. how stats are compiled and what criteria is used to interpret them.

To RObert

I do not even need to draw conclusions from a "reasonable asumption", I can make predictions based upon indisputable fact.

The indisputable fact is that any country at all, who has a significant minority of Muslims within it's population has got real trouble. No other religious or ethnic group comes even close to creating the degree of civil strife that Muslims create, wherever they are.

This civil strife includes high levels of welfare dependency with the accompanying high rates of serous criminal beahviour, demands for Sharia Law, race riots, intimidation of non Muslims, race riots, demands for Separatism and civil war. If people like myself rely heavily on aneccdotal evidence to confirm our views that exactly the same thing is happening in Australia, it is because Australians are not being told the truth about the impact of Islam on Australian society.

I know that the Australian Bureaux of Statistics has published one article "Prisoners in Australia" which lists incarcerated criminals by "country of birth", this is the only official publication which directly confirms the widely held view in Australia that certain ethnicities are very disproportionately represented in serious criminal behaviour.

This is because the various ethnic representatives lobbied the Federal Government to stop the ABS from collating or analysing statistics relating to ethnic related crime. Denied the truth from our own government sources, the public either gets their information from the newspapers every day and draws their own conclusions from the plethora of serious criminal incidents associated within notorious ethnic ghettoes, and combines that information with first hand accounts from trusted friends and relations who have experienced violent intimidation from those particualr notorious ethnic and religious groups.

The bottom line is, that some groups are simply too dangerous and too disruptive to be considered likely candidates for immigration into this country. In Australia, the welfare of Australians is the primary consideration, not being "fair" to notoriously difficult immigrant groups.

Well said Redneck

Rob. Lived in four different countries, observed mossies first hand in many European countries. Different origins but same behaviour.

Would much rather have 300000 bikers any day.

Islam is a real problem in Europe, and it will grow as a greater problem in Australia as they pressure us to unite with Indonesia.

"The director of the group Jihad Watch says things have gotten so bad in Europe that the only solution to the Islamic problem might be to divide the continent into Muslim and non-Muslim enclaves. Much has been made of the growing Muslim presence in Europe. According to 2005 statistics, roughly 10 percent of the population in France is Muslim -- percentages in Bulgaria and Russia, says IslamicPopulation.com, are even higher (12 and 19 percent, respectively). And in Southern Europe, there are considerably higher percentages in Macedonia (30), Bosnia Herzegovina (60), and Albania (70). By comparison, estimates place the Muslim presence in the United States at around two percent of the population.."

At: <http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1384188.html?view=print>

Fellow posters,

Whats 'real' and whats not comes down to how each and every individual practices. In the very same period Hitler & Mother Theresa each believed what they are doing is 'real' Christianity.

In today's Islamic world: Iranian president with Nuclear ambition believe its 'real practice, while Dr Mohamed el Baradei believes that stopping him is 'real' practice.

There are Orthodox jews who follow the commandments and follow the 'shall not kill' even on a cockroach and others who are OK with shooting a 10 year old girl.

Whats a real practice comes down to the individual whether they are good or bad. Religions and beliefs can only mirror what the individual is on the inside. There are violent Buddhists!

We can go on forever but you get the picture.

Fellow Human

One thing posting to OLO has made me aware of is the one-eyed fanaticism of some people. If its not Muslims, its homosexuals, or feminists or whatever this minority of bigots can project their hate on.

Reason doesn't work. Stating the bleeding obvious like: the behaviour of the few does not represent the behaviour of all, will not stop them from scouring the news or websites for any negative item they can find in a puerile attempt to validate their negative view.

Fear Factor at work.

RObert That we work from "reasonable assumptions" is stating the obvious - more a reflection on folks you are debating than on your postings. However, in respect to the claim that bloggers (Rancitas especially) base their responses on some movie or other (RObert and Boaz are especially inclined to make this mistaken assumption) is an unfair and unreasonable assumption. No I don't draw my conclusiuons from movies. What a nasty, elitist f@*king insult. A typical Christian rationalisation?

RObert it also is handy to read the blogger one is responding to for some context. Nevertheless, Boaz and his crew are clearly more than just naughty they're downright evil troublemakers. And too bookish to boot -as the posts above show.

Certain "Christians", especially Liberals, are capitalising on the fear factor - aiding, abetting and profiting from Australia's Arab-phobia. Now from my experience that is the Goddamned truth. Just read OLO's bigoted brigade's bullshieet. And all that welcoming diverse opinion, contradictory, and thus, pretentious bullshieet. (Three Dollars)

rancitas, "However, in respect to the claim that bloggers (Rancitas especially) base their responses on some movie or other (RObert and Boaz are especially inclined to make this mistaken assumption) is an unfair and unreasonable assumption. No I don't draw my conclusiuons from movies. What a nasty, elitist f@*king insult. A typical Christian rationalisation?"

I'm trying to work out where I have made that assumption. I don't recall doing so - not recently anyway. Please feel free to point me at an example and if it seems unfair in context I will gladly tender my apologies. I try and avoid nasty, elitist f@*king insult's and christain rationalisations.

redneck, I don't think we have 300,000 muslims "in Australia fermenting rapes, drive by shootings, civil strife, “honour killings, terrorism and drug trafficking.", instead we appear to have a few hundred in a fairly concentrated area causing a lot of grief in that area and 290,700 fairly law abiding easy to get on with muslims across most of the rest of Australia. Give or take a bit. Most of the Muslim world has not implemented sharia law, the countries which seem to have done so are ones with a long history of external interferance. I believe that many of the muslims who come to this country do so in part because they don't want to live in a country where people are stoned to death or have hands lopped of etc.

Some will struggle with the freedoms we enjoy just as some christains struggle with the freedoms we enjoy (BD recently posted about his desire for increased censorship of movies). I don't think that it is wishful thinking to assume that most muslims moving to live in a "secular society" will not be ones who really want to live under religious law, a percentage will get here and wish for the good old days, most will say Yippee!

R0bert

Fellow_Human has given himself away. By attacking my claim, which according to Muslim scholars themselves - and IS accepted by Muslims today, he has shown himself to be someone who reacts on emotion instead of reason.

How does my claim that after Mohammed came to power he massacred an entire, and very prominent Jewish tribe, women, kids, and all, mean that all Muslims massacre people?

Are you serious?

Jews likely lived in Muslim nations because depending on the Caliph, (some were reasonably tolerant)they had relatively good lives, providing they paid the jizya.

Further, Muslims probably treated Jews better than the barbaric Christians did at that point in history.

You attack without reason Fellow_Human, don't jump to conclusions.

Think a little.

Do you deny my point, about Mohammed being, in all honesty, quite a poor role model, even for those times?

Further, I'd like to hear what you think of Sharia Law. Irfan, and the other Muslims who write here (I don't know if you are, are you?) always defend Sharia, but none of them have offered their support for President of Afghanistan, Ahmed Kharzai's position on apostacy.

Did I say that right? No, sorry. It's not Kharzai's position, it's Islam's position isn't it?

No chance of getting out of it by saying it's just an interpretation this time is there?

Killing apostates is Islam through and through. How anybody believes Islam is tolerant is outrageous. To want to kill somebody for leaving Islam only says that Muslims have NO respect for anyone other than themselves.

After all, if you're willing to kill someone who becomes a Christian, you can't really think much of Christians can you?

To RObert.

Middle Eastern criminals are very disproportionately represented in NSW jails. There are over 12,000 prisoners in NSW jails alone right now. So your unreasonable assumption that there are only “a few hundred” Muslim bad eggs in Australia looks preposterous to me.

Muslims are also very disproportionately represented in social welfare dependency. Could you explain to me why Australia should continue to import people into this country who are simply going to be a drain upon our expenditures? Add terrorism, and the creation of Muslim only no go areas where Australians flee their own suburbs to escape the consequences of a failed multiculturalism, and preventing any more Muslims from creating social polarisation appears to be a very good idea.

The reason why so many Muslim countries have not adopted Sharia Law is because almost every Muslim country is a dictatorship, and dictators do not relish sharing power with clerics. If you think that Muslims in Australia do not want Sharia Law, then that is another unreasonable assumption of yours based entirely upon wishful thinking.

Your implication that Muslim societies which have Sharia Law only have it in response to Western colonial oppression is more worthy of mirth than serious consideration. The coming of white civilisation was the best thing that ever happened to Islamic societies and it was a response to 1000 years of Muslim aggression against Christendom.

The bottom line is, wherever Muslims congregate in significant numbers in any society, there is serious trouble. People from this political/religious conviction should therefore be excluded from Australia’s immigration program. If Australia's immigration program has become inimical to the interests and safety of Australians, it should be terminated.

Islamophobia: a fanatical and fearful avoidance of acknowledging the sad truth about Islam.

http://www.laweekly.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12921&Itemid=47

Martin Ibn Warriq,
Certainly an article worth notice. That is exactly their intention and we are beginning to recognise it in Australia. Parliamentarians try to dismiss it as mere rumour. Muslims will not relent till Shari'ah is global, and they use criminals to assist in achieving these goals. The criminals harrass residents until they sell up and move out so it becomes a Muslim enclave. They then introduce local laws at council level initially to serve them.

Philo

Please clarify what you mean by "they". Do you mean every single Muslim living in Australia is cooperating with criminals in order to create Muslim only enclaves, in order to take over local councils, in order to impose Islam on all of Australia?

This is what every single Aussie Mossie wants?

How can you be so sure?

Now that Abdul Rahman has been put on trial in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity,will we see the likes of Irfan Usuf come to the fore and try and save his life by condemning such barbaric legal system displayed by this form of Shariah Law?

I wait with bated breath.

Arjay,
Carnifex under Sharia law has cited Irf's site:

Posted by CARNIFEX, Sunday, 26 March 2006 9:17:13 AM

"Irf's written something about sharia on his site concerning the Abdur Rahman case in Afghanistan.

http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com

While you're here go to.....
http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,9353,18602286-28777,00.html

Read the article and check out the picture, the crim's got mossie prayer beads around his neck! Seen this many times in my travels.

Fellow_human still hasn't come out to answer the logic of my previous post.

That's alright. People make mistakes.

I like the quote about Islamophobia! An accurate description.

You may be interested to know that the homophobe, racist, misogynist, and plain awful human Keysar Trad, during email correspondence with me on Islam (I urge others to challenge him, he does reply, but don't be uneccessarily rude) said that he wasn't homophobic because he urged Muslims to ignore anti-discrimination laws regarding homosexuals.

For anybody who doesn't know, Trad was at a meeting about Islam & Homosexuality, where a Lakemba based cleric demanded Australia give Muslims Sharia courts, so that Muslims could stone homosexuals to death.

Got to love tolerant Islam? By the way, has Irfan popped up with a purile defence of Sharia in the case of the Afghani?

Anyway, Trad says he isn't homophobic because to be phobic - the symptoms are sweating, shaking, feeling sick, and he says he feels none of that around gays.

Well, I don't sweat when I see a burqa on a hot day either, but I bet they are!

Don't let anyone tell you your Islamophobic. Our fear of Islam is genuine, it's based on Islam's own teachings, and the fact that a percentage of them are trying to blow us up on trains.

It makes me sick when you hear about a racist Muslim leader saying THEY need protection from a backlash............all the evidence is that churches, not mosques, get attacked, burnt down.

Four alone were shot at & burnt after Cronulla - I wonder why they bought religion into it?

The greatest problem facing the western world today, particularly the U.S, U.K, Canada & Australia is the growing problem of Anglophobia, also known as reverse racism.

Fellow_human?

Your right Benjamin,Irfan did not condemn outrightly the trial of Abdul Rahman for apostacy.He makes equivocations as to the difficult climate Afghanistan is at the moment and alludes to sectarian misplaced outrage to justify the actions of the Afghani Govt.

Can anyone in this country imagine facing death by their Govt because they decided to change their religion?

I would like Irfan to tell us which parts of Shariah Law he wants to introduce and why our laws are so inadaquate?Personally I don't see problems with the law,but mostly with kneed lefty judges that won't implement it.

redneck, I'm willing to up the number from a few hundred to a justifiable number - the few hundred was largely a response to the equally silly suggestions that most muslims are causing problems which seems to occur over and over. How many of the "middle eastern" persons in NSW jails are muslim and what proportion of the relevant populations do they represent? What are the equivalent rates in other parts of Australia? There are no obvious signs of muslim criminal gangs in South East Queensland that I've heard of.

I'd like to see significant changes to the welfare system (another thread I guess) which moved it away from being an alternative to paid work to being a system of last resort which helps the genuinely needy but lets the lazy go hungry. Is the welfare issue you refer to primarily a NSW thing or is it nationwide? Again the Mossies I see and hear about in SE Queensland tend to be pretty ordinary people with jobs etc.

R0bert

BOAZ_David-you say my stats "…'begin' at a period where gun crime in South Western Sydney had SKYrocketed over the previous 5 yrs or so, relative to the rest of Sydney” and “’No Change’ suggests that the extremely disproportionately HIGH levels observed from 1998 to 2001 are STILL THE SAME…"

Can I clarify, I picked 1998-2001 on YOUR suggestion-"1998-2001 while all other types of crime including gun crime were decreasing across Sydney, SWS rates skyrocketed."

From the same site, though, the stats from any period in the last 10 years are no more convincing. However, every time a stat appears that does not show crime patterns consistent with a sudden increase in violence associated with an increase in Australia's Islamic population, you can easily ask for stats from one more year, or one less month etc, until you get something you like (or if you never do, you can keep questioning the null hypothesis).

Arjay says "A lot of crime,even assaults go unreported because police don't have the numbers,get bogged down in red tape and don't address many complaints."

It is true that crime stats will always be underestimated, though you would have to present an argument about how this under-estimation is unevenly distributed for that to matter regarding the argument at hand. You could add that the stats did not consider other factors that correlate with crime such as age group and population density. And certainly stats do not necessarily tell the whole story. It is possible that every single crime committed in the last 5 years has been done by an Islamic migrant, and at the same time, no other person has committed a crime (that would account for no trend change as well). But this would be extremely unlikely (statistically in the realms of trillions to one, I would imagine).

It is also true these stats do not show ethnic trends. As far as I'm aware, Redneck is correct that the ABS Country of Birth statistics are the only crime statistics that consider ethnicity (if that is what is measured by country of birth...).
(continued)

(from previous)
These particular stats show that the countries of birth most represented in our prisons have five times the rates of incarceration compared to the countries with the least representation. This is indeed a concerning statistic, and warrants (and is given) some attention from criminologists.

Of course, where you stand in the political divide can influence your interpretation of this stat; on the Right, this can show a genetic/cultural propensity to crime, and on the Left, institutional factors that discriminate against a group (unemployment, police behavior etc).
http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/publications/seminar/Ethnic%20Minorities%20and%20Crime%20in%20Australia.pdf

However, the difference between the over and under represented countries is between 2.7 convicted criminals, and 0.5 convicted criminals, per THOUSAND of the population.

The low rate of criminality in our population can also account for no change in crime trends over the last 5 years, even if the Islamic population has 10 times as many criminals as the rest of the Australian population (a wildly speculative rate that I think would very likely be much lower, but for the sake of argument…). It would take seriously high rates of crime from the 300,000 Muslims in Australia to impact overall crime rates, though one might expect to find regional differences if the “notorious ethnic ghettoes” that redneck refers to exist.

It seems to me that even arguing that 10% or so of our Islamic population exhibit serious criminal behavior (which could be detected in overall crime rates if the population growth has been large enough), it is still not clear that 270,000 Muslims should be suffering for the sins of 30,000.

Those who are quick to condemn Australia’s Islamic population have not yet given any sort of rational argument behind their arguments, but insist that I (and others) keep trying to prove the null hypothesis that there is no major ethnic related criminal threat to Australia (and when I show why this major Islamic criminal threat is statistically unlikely, insist that either I don’t use statistics or that I find them more suitable statistics for their argument).

(I’ll address appeals to anecdotal evidence in my next post…)

To Robert

Just what the proportion of Muslims in jails in Australia to other religions, I would just love to know. I know that the Turkish/Iraqi suburb of Auburn in Sydney has the highest number of long term welfare recipients, because I read that in the politically exquisite SMH, ironically just under a feature article slamming Pauline Hanson. What the proportion of Muslim welfare recipients are to the rest of the population is something that I would just love to know also. Same for welfare fraud, insurance fraud, motor traffic accidents and motor car traffic infringements. (I nearly got killed on Friday by some Mahmood, who overtook a car over double yellow lines while talking on his mobile phone) The way these characters drive in Sydney has got to be seen to be believed. Once, when sitting in stationary traffic on Parramatta Road, I watched incredulous, as one ayrab behind me mounted the footpath and then drove down the footpath at top speed before turning left through a petrol station entrance, and exiting down a side road. I am still shaking my head at that one. That is probably a normal driving tactic in Damascus or Baghdad.

The reason why Australians do not know these things, is because ethnic lobby groups have succeeded in preventing government agencies like the ABS from compiling, keeping, or analysing anything related to ethnic crime. Seems that they are a bit embarrassed, eh?

I would like to see changes in our welfare system too. Any immigrant or so called “refugee” who can not find gainful employment after 12 months gets a one way ticket home. We could probably save 10 billion desperately needed dollars that way, before you could say “parasite.”

Muslims in France are 8% of the population and they make up 55% of the jail inmates. These figures are a portent of things to come unless we discriminate against this religious group for immigration into this country. More Muslims means more jails, means less money for schools, hospitals and scientific research. It is your choice.

redneck, I think wibble is saying it a lot better than I am.

I have mixed feeling about the collection of some of the stats we are discussing. On one hand if there is a problem that relates to a particular group I'd rather know about it as well as having the evidence to counter claims like 300,000 criminal muslims in Australia. On the other hand there are dangers with selective use of statistics and assumptions that trends tell the whole story.

Nothing I've seen has given me any reason to think that we have a significant problem in Australia with the bulk of the muslim population - rather with a small proportion largely from a specific ethnic/social background and where the problem may cross the religion boundary with plenty of reason to believe that christains are also involved.

R0bert

Benjamin,

I didn't ignore your comment I just have a 'no forums policy' on the weekends: family time.

Answering your first question:
Muslims view the prophet as a good example.
Your version of the prophet Mohammed pbuh is a result of organised character assasination to promote your faith. At many points in time in history your folks needed an enemy to survive.

Many stories you quoted are at best intellectual dishonesty (not by yourself but per the original writers stories).
I don'tr resend you for it I just know you are mislead.

Your second question:
Totally agree that many of the first generation migrant Muslims suffer Anglo Phobia and that should not be the case. Not sure why and your guess will be as good as mine.
However, this phobia seems to disappear in second generation Australian, American, European Muslims.

Peace,

Dear Wibble, your stats seemed to cover a later period, thats why I referred to the earlier one... still, no need to place tooo much emphasis on them, at most they will suggest some disproportionate levels of crime in some areas, but the real problem is to look for the root cause.

We often hear that it is

1/'unemployment, lack of services' etc... which leads to....

2/ Alienation, marginalization, sense of victimhood and anti social behavior and crime.

3/ Which of course is where the statistics pick up on the issue.

This past week and the first few months of the year seem to bear out my stats about South West Sydney and gun crime. But again..back to root causes.

My suggestion is as follows:

Cultural unsuitability/clash.

a) Prayer during day at least 3 times.
b) Dress code which may conflict with work practices.
c) Possibly wanting friday off or part of it.
d) Examples throughout the world showing how aggressive and hateful radical muslims can be towards host countries. (France, Germany,Spain, USA,Kenya)
e) The specific targetting of witnesses against Muslim crime figures.

Taken together, they would tend to make any employer think not twice but 3 times about employing someone with an Arabic/Muslim name.

That is the spot where the numbered points above begin.
Once the Muslim community reaches a significant size, all these problems are compounded. I maintain that immigration should specifically exclude Muslims, not because I 'hate' them, but because of the collateral damage brought about by large Muslim communities through their criminal/radical fringe elements.

Did anyone notice the HUGE HUGE HUGE numbers of hispanics on the streets of LA this week ? What are they there for ? to DEFEND HISPANIC INTERESTS regarding freedom to enter the USA for work or whatever. Let there be no mistaking the power of a crowd.

"Small" communities of culturally/racially/linguistically different people are managable and acceptable, LARGE ones are not.

I recommend readers research the Australian "HOME GUARD"... what started it, how big it became.. etc. perhaps "It's Time" for a resurrection ? (Pericles.. u there ? :)

To RObert.

There are 300,000 Muslims in Australian society who are a danger to you and I.

“Moderate” Muslims still believe in the core values of Islam. If they did not, they would not be “Muslims.” These core values include a conviction that Muslims who convert to other religions should be murdered. A conviction that all non Muslims, except Jews and Christains, must either convert to Islam or be murdered. A conviction that people who have had sex outside of marriage must be murdered in a slow, painful and gruesome way.

Why do you wish to live next to people who want to murder you? How is it that you do not consider people who hold these views as reprehensible?

Before you claim that “moderate” Muslims do not believe in these practices, take the example of the man in Afghanistan who is facing execution for converting to Christianity. He has been condemned by a “Moderate” Government. Now, if this incident is anathema to “moderate” Muslims, why are they not marching in the streets denouncing this violation of their “moderate” views by a “moderate” Islamic state? If thousands of Muslims can march in Sydney because of a headscarf ban in France, it is inexplicable that “moderate” Muslims, who you say are the majority, would not link arms to declare their opposition to an insult to “moderate” Islamic thinking.

But they won’t, because “moderate” Muslims look pretty fundamentalist to me.

So what we have are 300,000 fundamentalist Muslims who live in Western societies and who are intrinsically hostile to Western values. These people are also disproportionately involved in serious criminal behaviour and welfare dependency. They can only be accommodated by draining our treasury and building more and more jails. They can also only be accommodated by enacting legislation that repeals long held freedoms.

I find your endorsement for this sad state of affairs to be utterly amazing.

redneck the lack of serious expressions of public outrage by western muslims over the idea of condeming someone to death for changing religion is something that all moderate muslims should be deeply ashamed of. The timidy of the public protest (has there been any?) by muslims will certainly contribute to the cause of the anti-muslim brigade and in this case with good reason. No argument on that one.

My concerns about the anti-muslim brigade are predominately
- Double standards. It appears to be mostly driven by christians who refuse to apply the same standards to their own faith that they apply to Islam. This applies to interpretation of their scriptures, outrage at attempts to introduce religious law into the law of the land etc. They do the same to other belief systems - see Fida Mae's views on the character of people who don't believe in a god http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4238#36746

- A dislike for any system that judges individuals based on perceptions about the whole group. History has shown that not all muslims act to the worst standards of their faith so I refuse to accept that we should treat them all as though they will do so.

I have no particular liking for Islam or any other religious group and if we had a group of fundy muslims on the site behaving as our resident christains do I would be battling them as consistantly.

As it is we only have a few known active muslims contributers - Irfan who appears to have given up on engaging in meaningfull discussion and instead spends his time counting centuries and looking for Nazi's on the lounge chair, Fellow Human who remains a picture of sanity amongst the monothiestically inclined and recent contributions by dawood seem to come from a much healthier place than contributions by most of our resident christains.

R0bert

Robert,

For what its worth I for one am ashamed of a death penalty to someone who changed his religion and I believe all Muslims should be against it. Faith is a personal choice.

RedNeck,

The thing with your mob you never describe what a moderate Muslim is until later on I find out you meant an ex-Muslim.

Boaz,

So people praying is a cultural misfit?
What the heck is a 'Muslim crime figures'

Thank you R0bert for your perserverance.

I despair of reasoning with the absurdity of claims made by anti-Islamists on this thread.

Claims like "There are 300,000 Muslims in Australian society who are a danger to you and I" are as absurd as they are untrue.

These claims are deliberate attempts to stir up hatred - uneqivocally are religious vilification without any foundation in fact.

I concur that the non-islamic community would appreciate louder voices from the Muslim majority - perhaps they have been condemning the extremist Muslim fringe - with the media so tightly controlled by just a few, perhaps we are not getting to hear about it.

I also agree if the few Muslim posters behaved the way many Christian posters do on this website, I would be appalled. My distrust of any formal religion has been confirmed.

In summary, the vitriol expressed here just goes to show how anti-Jew propaganda worked for the Nazis during the 1930's. I guess this is where Irfan gets his 'armchair nazis' - not helpful, but I do understand. Irfan is a talented writer - a shame he isn't using his skill as effectively as he could.

However, if a loud and persistent few can hold 300,000 people to blame for every act of terrorism, just here in Australia - then we do have much to fear.

Fact is I have never been confronted in my home to convert to Islam - but I have been accosted by Christians in the privacy of my home - frequently.

On this website I have been abused, verbally threatened, aspersions cast on my morality and emotionally blackmailed simply because I maintain a moderate point of view.

I can only hope that the extremists on this website are indeed a minority of Australians. I believe that they are primarily due to the polls conducted by Graham Young where reason far outweighs hysteria.

Where are the moderate Australians on this website? They are as quiet as the moderate Muslims.

Scout Irfan has a fresh article up speaking quite clearly in support of freedom of religion and opposing the death penalty for change in religion. He also provides information from other sources regarding moderate muslim opposition to such horrors. Something I was not aware of when I wrote my earlier post. I was very glad to see the article - Irfan still writes really well I just wish his role in these forums was as constructive.

redneck - read Irfan's article, do you see anything there which supports your claims that all those 300,000 muslims want to kill us slowly for our crimes?

I would rather the public voices of the muslim community were a bit louder on this issue but that could be the nature of media reporting. I don't want to see aussie muslims burning cars in protest (which they did not do over the cartoons either) so the reality may be that we won't see their opposition making prime time news.

Do Irfan and Fellow Human need to be any more clear about their opposition to the death penalty for leaving Islam?

R0bert

Scout, that’s the third time you’ve said you have been abused etc. I can’t let that pass again. Are you able to point to an example? I will apologise if you can find one.

Now that you mention it why did you say that I had damned you to Hell, I’ve never said any such thing.

How can anyone be sure about that anyway? Someone we think is really nice could have had all the advantages and done very little with it, someone we think a fiend may have done an enormous amount of good to overcome disadvantage. Obviously the latter is on the way to glory, the start of a life of great power, joy and a blissful dream come true - the former off to an eternal sub-humanity somewhere of their choosing - Hell. All this really is none of my business. It’s always been between the individual and God. Our judgments on the human level about such things will mostly miss the mark.

Of course in principle if someone deliberately rejects Jesus does nothing for anyone but themselves then they get to live forever as they have lived, separated from the God from whom all good things come.

I can correct you when you make factual errors, particularly in relation to the Christian religion and religion in general, simply because I know more about it than you do. As you do about subjects I’m not familiar with. I’d refrain from definitive comment about these and tend to be more enquiring hoping to learn from you in these cases.

I have to admit I was offended when I read what you had said about me.

I hope you will keep to the standards you say others are not observing.

A straw man is when we re-fashion another's argument to make it sound absurd so that it is easy to demolish. This is not argument it is the avoidance of it. This looks like what you have done to alot of the criticism of Islam.

To RObert

I put it to you, RObert, that so called “moderate Muslims” endorse the core values of Islam. These core values are unmistakably dangerous to non Muslims. You did not answer my question that I put to you. Why do you want people to immigrate to Australia who’s self declared religious dogma instructs them to murder you? How plain does a threat need to be before people like yourself stop making excuses for people who make no bones about their hostility?

Once again, you are snivelling about how naughty it is to judge people on their group affiliations. Get it through your head that everybody does it. If you met a person who told you that he was a Nazi or a member of the Ku Klux Klan, are you seriously trying to say that you would not judge that person from his group affiliations? Do you have any Nazis or One Nation supporters in your inner circle of friends? You trendies base your loopy arguments upon moral absolutes that you can not live up to yourself.

Irfan is an interesting character. He is obviously practiced at selling his Muslim product to people like yourself who think that he is sincere. But when Costello made the remark that Muslims who dream of Sharia Law in Australia should head back home, Irfan was up there defending Sharia Law.

It was obvious to most people that Costello was being diplomatic. Costello thought that the only Muslims who wanted Sharia Law were a ratbag fundamentalist minority. But “moderate” Muslims like Irfan do not see it that way at all. Get it through your overly thick cranial cavity that “moderate” Muslims want Sharia Law, and they do want to stone you to death.

If my statement is not correct, then I challenge Irfan to correct me. (Don't hold your breath.)

RedNeck,

We are getting somewhere.
Being a moderate Muslim does not mean you should stop believeing in Islam and its core values but rather follow its spiritual teachings.
You saw my last comment re Irfan's article many Muslims (not only in the western world) believe that parts of the Shariah laws like the death sentence for the apostate is something we can do without.

The world is not black & white.

Martin

If you have taken my opinion of extreme Christianity personally - that is a shame - I do not know what to say about that. I can't apologise because I hold no personal emnity towards you. I don't like religion - it has caused more blood shed and misery than good. You can argue about that if you like - but I won't be engaging you in that because it would just contribute to the "my religion is better than yours" diatribe and rants that continually block any cogent debate on these pages.

I have been told by Coach that I would rot in hell.
By Redneck that I am probably an adulterer and would be stoned to death by muslims.
By Boaz that I should be married and follow my husbands lead in everything.
By Numbat that I am a pagan for not being a Christian.
By Philo - an extremist feminist for wanting to be independent.
Accused by all of the above as being dumb just for holding a different point of view.

There is more and if I could be bothered I could provide links to all and more - surely if you follow these pages you would have read some of the diatribe against non-christians - or is your reading purely selective?

I am not the only contributor who is routinely abused - R0bert, Fellow Human and others receive personal attacks.

I do not make personal attacks Martin, I do view with complete abhorrance ANY religion which would tell me what to do, what to think and how to breed.

It is this FEAR factor used by ALL religions to control, denigrate and abuse others.

That you take it personally is your problem.

Oh, hello Fellow Human. I thought I was “persona non grata” to you? Did my pointed logic finally prod you into responding? I thought if I kept kicking you and your mates you would eventually crack. It is very gratifying when your Muslim enemies do exactly what you predict that they will do. It means that the Good Guys have the jump on your mob.

If “moderate” Muslims believe that the death sentence for apostasy is a little quaint, do you think that you might be able to get off your butts and tell your ”moderate” co religionists in Afghanistan to pull their heads in?

As a genuine Muslim, Fellow Human, could you tell me why Muslims can get thousands marching through Sydney protesting about a French headscarf ban, but are oddly silent when yet another bunch of Islamic fruitcakes want to stone somebody to death, kill an apostate, or blow up some 2000 year old statues?

If Muslims want westerners to stop being anti Muslim, you guys had better extricate your digit from whatever bodily orifice you have got it jammed up, and start bringing your Imams and hotheads into line. Why didn’t Sheik al Hilaly’s congregation walk out of his mosque when he called Jews “snakes”, Russians “dogs”, and Americans “pigs”? If you characters do nothing when your own leaders call other people racist names, you can hardly get self righteous when us rednecks do it to you. Your silance simply confirms our suspicions that you are not being honest, and that you are just pretending to be nice guys to lull the neuronally challenged Sneakypeters of this world into committing cultural hari kari.

As for the world not being black or white. “Fight the unbeliever who are near to you”, seems pretty black and white to me.

RedNeck,

Many Muslims on forums, bloggs, schools and universities interact on modernisation of Islamic teachings. The existence of wacky laws in Pakistan does not mean that we are not talking about it and dealing with it. Legislators in many Muslim countries look at the intent of the law then define the details.

You touched on many points but the key from my perspective are:

- Comments on the Quran: intellectual dishonesty from some posters seems to be the norm. the Quran clearly allows limited defence rights only if you are at war and is followed by a ‘shall not transgress’. If you don’t like it here is one word: Liviticus!
- Comment on Sheikh Tag: I attended few prayers last Ramadan in the mosque where he preaches. Although it was a handful of sessions, your accusation sounds very alien to a language that he can possibly use. Muslims in general call Christians and Jews as people of the book. Wahabbis call them Zimmi or Dhimmi which is more of a visa/ residency class than a religious. No practicing Muslim that I can think or know of will call other humans ‘dogs or pigs’. Can you provide evidence?
- Muslims marching: Australian Muslims where in many events including in the Bali terror attack victims ceremony. I have seen many Muslims in their tears but you seem to be selective. I would rather see Muslim communities doing more of what they are doing now which is open day in mosques and interact more with the society through charity and volunteer activities.
- “Muslims silence confirms our suspicion” :
o First Muslims are not silent but engage in many activities as per my point above.
o Your paranoia (ie suspicion) will always be there no matter what we do or do not do.

Fellow Human

Your point to redneck:

"Your paranoia (ie suspicion) will always be there no matter what we do or do not do."

And that is the sad truth. No matter what you do or say there are people in this country (and I wouldn't have believed it possible until I started contributing to this forum) who really want to believe that all 300,000 Aussie Muslims are plotting against the rest of the Australian population. It would be funny, except the ramifications such as Cronulla are the result.

The Fear Factor at work. It has always worked - Cambodia, Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Palestine, Israel and on and on.

It is depressing to keep on going with posts sometimes - the hatred does get to me.

So I credit you with your patience - you are far more patient than I and this inspires me to keep going too.

Cheers

Fellow_Human, Scout, wibble thank you all for your attempts to bring some balance to these threads. They are getting somewhat tiresome and I am so glad that others have hung around to attempt to provide some moderate view to these posts - balance would probably be when we had some muslim extremists posting stuff which was as outragous as the muslim bashers one sided viewpoints.

The continual ignoring of the realities of human behaviour, portrayal of the worst excesses of the muslim world as the norm etc are useful for capitilising on the fear factor or what is different just as similar techniques have always been to instill fear and hatred of a portion of the community in the broader community. Some of mankinds worst moments as a species have followed similar campaigns.

Those who involve themselves in the campaign of villification should have a long hard look at the times in history when similar campaigns have been raged and ask themselves if they really want to keep the company they find themselves in. They should ask if the real risk posed by the presence of 300,000 muslims in a country of about 20 million is such that it is worth the cost we will all pay as a result of the kind of increased power to governments, damage to society etc that goes along with whiping up fear is justified.

It's time for an end to the non stop bashing of all things muslim by some so that we can move on to addressing the issues we could be talking about.
- how can we address the issues posed by ethnic crime gangs and are the actual rates of involvement higher than in the general community.
- how can we get migrants (and their kids) to integrate into the broad community (getting over anglophobia where it exists).
- what can we reasonably expect of migrants when they come here in terms of involvement in the political process, use of welfare, economic contribution, change of cultural values (status of women etc).

R0bert

In reply to the poster who asks for examples of name-calling by Muslims - here are a few. I could provide hundreds of similar quotes but the space here is limited:

1. Muslim leaders clarify anti-Semitic remarks
Last Updated Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:06:04 EDT
CBC News
VANCOUVER - Two high-profile Muslim leaders in Canada have been forced to issue clarifications for anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli comments.

In East Vancouver, the head of the Dar al-Madinah Islamic Society came under attack for calling Jews "brothers of monkeys and swine" during a recorded lecture following Israel's killing of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, last spring.

2. Our very own bigot, Sheik Elhilaly has referred to Jews in similar terms many times. All in the public domain, look it up.

3. In a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."

4. Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque – the most important mosque in Mecca - urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with Jews because they are "the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs."

5. In another sermon, "Read history and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil fathers of the Jews of today, who are evil offspring, infidels, distorters of [others'] words, calf-worshippers, prophet-murderers, prophecy-deniers... the scum of the human race 'whom Allah cursed and turned into apes and pigs...' These are the Jews, an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption..."

These men are 'practicing Muslims' if I am not mistaken

Scout, Robert, Fellow_Human.

I understand it is psychologically difficult to face up to what is happening in our world.

Please read, moderate your language and come to grips with reality. Don't be afraid.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

To Fellow Human.

If Muslims are “dealing with it”, could I suggest that you come back in a couple of hundred years when you have got your medieval mindsets and your written religious intolerance towards non Muslims sorted out? Until you do, you can hardly complain if Australians regard Muslims as an unacceptable threat.

Could I ask you a few plain, simple questions? I am a “fornicator”. Do you believe that I should be stoned to death? Do you think that Muslim apostates should be murdered? Do you think that non Muslims “not of the Book” should either convert to Islam, or be murdered?

The reference to Sheik al Hilali calling people from other national and religious groups “pigs”, “dogs” and “snakes”, comes from a feature article on Sheik Hilali by the politically exquisite Sydney Morning Herald. (Sept 14, 2002) The same article quoted Hilali from an SBS-TV feature, in which he praised suicide bombers and made other comments so incendiary, that according to the SBS, “they ended up on the cutting room floor.” What remained of Hilaly's sermon to his congregation looked so bad on SBS-TV, that when the SBS news crew returned to interview the Sheik again, a crowd of his peaceful Muslim mates beat the SBS news crew half to death.

This same man, the leader of Muslims in the Sydney area, also gave a speech at Sydney University in 1988, where he told his audience of Scout and RObert clones that “the Jews want to control the word though sexual perversion, the promotion of espionage, treason and economic hoarding.”

If one of Islam’s leading clerics in Australia makes leaves no doubt that he despises other religious and national; groups, do you not think it hypocritical when he cries crocodile tears over Australian hostility to Muslims, and preaches sermons to the gullible press that we are all living in multicultural harmony?

As for interacting with Muslims, I prefer to keep my distance from people who’s religious beliefs mandate that I must be murdered in a cruel, painful and slow way.

Phew!

I have just read the article and all of the postings.

All I can say is all Christians aren't bad or all good, and all Muslims are not all bad or all good. Same applies to agnostics and atheists. Nothing new.

Cheers
Kay

Well said Kay :)

Diane/Scout.. I don't recall claiming u are 'dumb' but I DO recall you saying such things about me .. "lacking intelligence and wit" or words to that effect..

I really don't think much new can be said on this thread. My hearts desire though is to put my arms around all of you in humble human affection.. but it might creep some out :) specially Redneck I'd say. Here we are.. grappling with things important to us, disagreeing sure.. making our cases..refining them, repeating them...

I don't think we need be ashamed of such activity in a debate/opinion forum and specially for those who continually attribute 'hate' to disagreement, *sigh* surely that line is done to death no ?

Redneck is entitled to his view, as is Diane, F.H. and Robert and the rest of us. What I think some of the Scout/Robert/Wibble/Dawood/Irfan/MikeM crowd are missing is this, "We don't actually LIVE in this forum", we are real people, who bleed, emotionally and physically. So I think its a bit of a stretch to take our competing statements as indicative of a crowd carrying torches in the night dressed in pointy hooded costumes.

Actually 'F.H.' is just about the only Muslim on the forum who 'gets' where I'm coming from, and who understands that I don't hate him.
I dunno why Scout doesn't get this.

Oh..Scout.. we just finished our Church Camp. I was pusher/shover and treasurer, and the CHAIR was a ..wait for it.. LADY :) she nagged me something aweful about stirring the campers to get to dinner on time and guess what.. I didn't tell her her 'place' :) -I don't see you existing in the confines of 'your' description of my position about women, there must be some issue which continues to make it 'come across' to you so negatively.

blessings to all.

RedNeck,

You raised two conceptual points:

First point: few Imams are known with ‘fiery’ anti-non Muslims comments. I agree and I acknowledge that. The overwhelming majority I have listened to in Australian mosques however (Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra and Brisbane) are the normal Imams who plainly promote harmony, acceptance and understanding. These
The ‘anti-Jewish’ Imams emerged since mid 1950 and they use the Israeli occupation of Palestinians lands as a “Muslims versus Jews”. This is stupid and counter productive in my view. The Israeli Palestinian land struggle is just that “Israeli Palestinian” and not Muslims vs Jews. The Quran confirms the Mosaic laws and Jews lived safely amongst Muslims since Islam came to earth. Many Judeo-Christian movements in North America sadly like to promote this view as well so not all the nuts are in our camp.

Second point: many modern scholars use the ‘intent’ of Shariah to raise question re old punishment like the apostate’s death. I do believe in religious freedom and people are given the choice of faith according to the HolyBook.

I am not sure where did you get the “non-people of the book should convert to Islam or be murdered”. The Quran clearly states that Muslims should honour their peace treaties. Back those days being at war was a state of norm so bi-lateral peace treaties were their way to recognise sovereignty and borders.

As for the personal on whether you are a fornicator, it’s really none of my business and only God can judge who you are and what you do.

Boazy,

I do understand you don’t hate me personally :-) . No need to worry about hiring a food taster when you invite me to lunch. Cross (or crescent:-))this one off my list.

Peace and good weekend,

Boaz

You lifted the words "lacking intelligence and wit" in a post of mine where I was attacking ALL the extremist posters to this thread. That you have chosen to take this personally suggests that you include yourself with the extremists on OLO.

Now, you provide a little anecdote regarding a "lady" as being a chairperson at your little club. Good for you, giving the "ladies" a little boost to their paricipation in the evangelical church. Could you please repeat your beliefs regarding the order of men, women and god - I don't want to get it wrong. But I think it goes something like this:

Women follow their hubbies guidance and their hubbies follow god's guidance.

This implies that not only are women secondary to men but that they should be married. And I guess they need to be "ladies" as well if they want to participate as chairpersons. Or is that chairlady in your little world?

I'm a woman - I can choose what I want to wear, how I want to breed, whether I want to marry and I can also fart, belch, swear, ride motorbikes to my hearts content - just like any other HUMAN BEING. Whereas being a "LADY" means not doing very much at all - unless one is a fan of Little Britain, suggest you check out the "laaaadies" on that wonderful TV comedy.

Furthermore, not being restricted to "ladylike" behaviour I am in complete rejection of ALL religious extremists. You never seem to notice that this not only refers to Christian fundies but includes Muslim fundies as well - this point never seems to register with you Boaz.

Where I do take issue is where innocent groups of people (in this case Muslims) are constantly berated, maligned, vilified and blamed for any and everything.

Martin Ibn W. - the tenor of your posts to me are frequently patronising and condescending, as well you are always pushing the Christian agenda - even though aware I reject formal religion. This is not respectful, yet you tell me to "moderate" my language! Hypocrisy.

We do not need to sex up the Arab story in Western Sydney we just have to state the facts.

In the last 24 hours in Sydney there has been 35 incidents involving armed hold ups with hand guns or drive by shootings on homes in the South West of Sydney, including two murders. One of the persons shot also had a handgun which means we have terrorism happening in Sydney Streets. It is war.

We do not wish to be impolite to persons like F_H but his attitudes and bahaviour is not typical of the problems we face with Muslims in Sydney.

Once middle class suburbs like Guilford and Merrylands are now turning into Arab war zones. The Arab youths gather at mosques to plan their antisocial attacks. They consider they are at war with the Alglos so they believe the principles of war as supported by the Quor'an apply.

F_H could you please list how Muslims are to behave in war?
So we might be able to combat them.

Philo,

Crime related gangs in Australia could be a mix of law enforcement, bad parenting and maybe poor immigration policies. I refuse to believe that a highly educated/ uni graduate for example will or can be involved in what you are claiming.

Aussie immigration policy is mainly concerned with low/ no skills labour which have its impact on the quality of migrants and subsequently the ‘imported’ socio-economical problems. I am not being biased but Australian Muslims are way behind American Muslims for example in many aspects of education, contribution to the society, etc…(Even American Muslims of Lebanese origin are vastly different from Australian Muslims of Lebanese background).

Gangs can’t be a ‘Muslims issue’. Why is it only Lebanese and why is it only Sydney? You will probably the find the culprits have the same criminal records in their own home countries.

As for ‘Muslims at war’ question, can’t really tell, the only war I was involved in Aug 90 to Sep 91 was the first gulf as a conscripted corporal in the borders and coast guards division. The enemy at the time was Iraqi Muslims.

RObert, sorry sir. I picked up on your words "reasonable assumptions" and used those to straighten young Boaz out. Boaz tends to make a lot of unreasonable assumptions. I don't think you have ever responded to Rancitas before, and you are one of the more level-headed thinkers - so it is reasonable to assume that I owe you an apology. I am sorry for unintentionally misrepresenting you. (Handshake)

Dianne since you brought it up.

Christian agenda mmm I wonder what that is?

If you mean I see things through the lens of the Gospels and the life of Jesus – thank you for the compliment. I mean to be a witness for Christ, it is intentional. But I’m either right or wrong.

Does that mean you have a secular humanist agenda?

The idea that it is valid to speak only from secular humanist starting assumptions not Christian ones – is not grounded in any reasonable theory of knowledge its completely arbitrary. (Read one of the latest OLO submission by Donna Sife ‘When being a Jew is not kosher . . . “)

Also, I wasn’t going to say anything again (Christian mercy), but

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4282#36494

In this you call me misogynistic, fundamentalist and claim I have damned you to Hell.

All lies.

When confronted with this you tell me it is my problem for being offended, but it is other’s problem when they do the same to you.

Isn’t that hypocritical? Righteously indignant at certain behaviour then behave that way yourself?

Where have I been condescending? Many times you’ve used ‘Fear Factor’ to deprecate an informed comment about Islamic and Western tensions. Is this not condescending? It seemed to me it was you who were afraid to absorb the issues and come up with opposing arguments.

You have a double standard with regard to offensive comments, a double standard with regard to what ‘agenda’s’ are acceptable and a double standard with regard to condescension.

Again I wasn’t going to say anything, but it has occurred to me that all the criticism levelled at Christians is often the very thing that fundamentalist (I use this as a bit of a payback) atheists in here actually embody themselves. The word ‘projection’ has been used against me, when I read it I chuckled at the irony.

Scout it is scary but true that you disown in yourself what you claim exists in Christians.

Fellow Human, I am getting sick of explaining things to you. I will do it one last time, I feel compelled to educate those like you but there is only so much one can do, if you're so closed you can't listen, then it's your loss.

You sound like a Muslim, but you know nothing of Islam.

Islam does not respect "people of the book" in the way westerners understand the term. The concept of Dhimmitude is what your on about, with your taqqiya.

Why don't you explain to Boaz about how respectful Islam is to non-people of the book, like Hindu's?

I await your response but won't hold my breath.

And you miss the point entirely anyhow. Who cares if Islam is SUPPOSED to be believed a certain way.

ALL THAT MATTERS IS HOW MUSLIMS LIVE, and they live, on the whole, like barbarians. They treat other religious minorities like trash, you ever heard of the Coptic Egyptians?

Even here, in the Islamic diasporas, churches are regularly burned, with four in the aftermath of Cronulla, two after London attack, and two after the first Bali, all in Sydney's west.

The Uniting Church at Bass Hill has had to rebuild four times in four years.

Have you ever heard of a mosque being burnt down in Australia?

You say we don't understand Islam, but we do. Ex-Muslims are educating us more each day.

Are you really saying that a cleric in India, who recently said that terrorism is totally acceptable in Islam, who has over thirty years of experience teaching Islam, is wrong and you are right?

There are hundreds of these examples. Even Sheik Hilali, is he wrong? We all know his thoughts on jihad

But why tell us anyway? Tell those Muslims that are "misinterpreting Islam"m they need to know Islam is really peaceful, not me.

Teach poor fellows like the Indian Imam Waliullah, who don't seem to grasp what you loudly proclaim is self-evident, that Islam is a religion of peace.

Or that nine year old girls shouldn't be taken as wives.

Or that infidels shouldn't be made to pay the jizya.

Or that it's wrong that Muslims are allowed to lie to further the jihad against us kaffir scum.

You are a fraud. The west may be benevolent, and Muslims sure take advantage of that, but it won't last. We have fought two world wars against powerful armies to keep our rights.

Your brothers blow one train up a year. You've got no chance of bringing Sharia here, your people are impotent and weak, as are your ideas.

That is why you have all voted with your feet and are living in the paradise that is the west.

Well, wadyaknow? Ya pick up the Daily Telegraph this morning and out comes the screaming banner headlines.

NOT ON OUR STREETS

Sydney has now had 22 drive by shootings in the South West of Sydney since the beginning of this year. Almost two a week.

Naturally, “most” of these shootings involved men of “Middle Eastern background. Since the newspapers never tell you the whole truth, you join the dots and figure out that the rest of the shootings were almost certainly caused by people of Vietnamese background.

Police fear that the shootings may get as bad as the outbreak of suburban terrorism by Arab Muslim imports that happened during 2003, when it was getting difficult to walk in Muslim territory because of all the spent bullet casing rolling around on the roads.

Naturally, the large crowd of Muslims knew exactly who to blame for the murders. When the NSW Police turned up, a crowd of 200 attacked the police.

Looks like Tim Priest was spot on, ehh? I wonder how Sneakypeter, RObert and Scout will try to explain away the latest bit of bad news.

Rivers of blood may flow. Teachers may refuse to teach. Australians flee their former suburbs which are being turned into bullet strewn battlefields. Aussie girls may get gang raped by the score. But to some people, uphoding the Internationalist vision splendid is far more important than protecting the Australian people from a group of people who are nothing but trouble

Why the Peaceful Majority is Irrelevant
Front Page Magazine, Debris Trail, 1 March 2006
"I used to know a man whose family were German aristocracy prior to World War Two. They owned a number of large industries and estates. I asked him how many German people were true Nazis, and the answer he gave has stuck with me and guided my attitude toward fanaticism ever since. "Very few people were true Nazis" he said, "but, many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories." We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace"

At: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=2144

To Fellow Human.

You are saying that modern Muslim jurists are re evaluating Koranic law, especially that regarding punishments?

Well, that is interesting. Tell me, where were all of these respected jurists when Amina Lawal was sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria in 2003? Where, for that matter, were all of these respected Muslim jurists when apostate Salmon Rushdie was condemned to death by the Ayatollah Khomeini?

If “western” Muslims contain only an insignificant number of fundamentalists who believe in a literal application of Sharia Law, why was it that almost the entire Muslim population of Great Britain was gunning for Rushdie? If a fundamentalist view is rejected by “moderate” Muslims, one would have expected the “moderate” Muslim leadership in Britain to have calmed their own people down. Instead, these very same “moderate” leaders were openly calling for Rushdie’s murder, some even expressing the wish that they were praying to Allah for the privilege of slitting Rushdie’s throat themselves. This view was even expressed by former pop star Cat Stevens, who announced on British television that if he saw Rushdie, he would do his best to murder him.

Could I put it to you, Fellow Human, that your platitudes about how old Islamic laws are not being taken seriously by “moderate” Muslims in the west, does not appear in accord with observable reality?

You said that “fiery” Muslim clerics are in the minority. But Sheik al Hilali is definitely “fiery” and he is some sort of Grand Mufti of Islam. If your most senior Islamic jurist in Australia is praising suicide bombers and promoting religious and racist hatred in this country, it hardly inspires trust in his lesser ranked minions, does it?

Finally, you are saying that you personally do not want fornicators like me stoned death. You believe in total religious tolerance and you don’t think that Muslim apostates should be murdered.

Well, that is very gratifying. But even if you are not giving me an Al Taqiyya snow job, I doubt if your fellow “moderate” Muslims feel the same way.

Martin

I was speaking generally about the Christian extremists. No, you have not personally damned me to hell - in fact Coach has. However, by the nature of your posts you clearly disapprove of me because of my beliefs. If you took this personally then I apologise but please understand that there are many extremist Christians here at OLO and sometimes it is easier to generalise. I will attempt to be more precise in future to spare you your sensitivities.

However, the behaviour of many Christian fundies on this forum is deplorable and you appear to tacitly agree with the extremist position. Very similar situation we have when people complain that moderate Muslims don't appear to condemn the extremist Muslims. Can you see a parallel here?

Also, I take issue with being preached to about a religion in which I have no belief. This is not respectful to my beliefs. Apparently if one is a self declared atheist or agnostic - the Christian extremists consider us as ripe for lectures. Such as a condescending lecture you delivered to me here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4145#36917

I maintain that I have not personally insulted you - I admit I included you with the other extremists because you do not treat my opinions with any respect and you do not speak out against your extremist brothers.

You condemn Muslims as violent - like Christians it is only a small percentage who are nutters. You paint all Muslims with the same brush - this is the Fear Factor.

Jews were painted with a fear factor brush in times past and this is happening to Muslims today.

I don't hold any hope that you will understand.

Crikey you're getting stuck into me for telling a story about the Christian understanding of God? You had just called God an ego maniac.

That is no God a Christian knows.

I've never said all Muslims are violent, of course thats absurd, you're doing it again. To repeat, we have more in common than not given we're both human. Humans though are religious creatures and if a person finds this dimension of life and their access to God is mediated through the Quran and Hadiths I argue this is what is leading to terrible violence committed with Allah's sanction.

Many Muslims have created a morally beautiful image of Mohammed and follow that, well this will lead to good behaviour. But this is not the Mohammed of Muslim holy scripture - just as the clerics tell their faithful.

Khomeini and Bin Laden are good Muslims. This is what we're up against. Statistically speaking 10-15% will be willing to follow the Quran to its logical conclusion. Others will pick and choose to follow certain parts for ill or for good. Many more will sympathise with the bad half and the good selective Muslims will sympathise with those who are more committed to re introducing the Caliphate. Look at history.

While we're at our weakest this is happening, Australia doesn't source much Muslim immigration thank heavens but those countries that do mmm big trouble.

I wouldn't trust reciprocation when giving the benefit of the doubt to our Muslim population. There needs to be more effort from them to protest against Muslim crimes, more effort to keep stupid clerics out etc. I don't think this will happen though.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HC28Df01.html

Martin
You bet I am getting stuck into you – for your lack of respect.

The god described in your bible is a spiteful God– a god that manipulates, threatens and murders. A god that would turn a human being to a pillar of salt for looking back – what manner of creature is that? - a megalomaniac. I reject such a tiny creature.

I do not believe in a vengeful god – that is MY belief and you have demonstrated your lack of respect for myself and others by your lectures. Please desist.

Now, you have described Khomeini and Bin Laden as ‘good’ Muslims – what a nasty piece of manipulation that is. What an insult to ALL reasonable Muslims. You are implying that these psychopaths follow the Koran devoutly, therefore all who follow the Koran are as evil as they. You should be ashamed of yourself for such a cheap shot at all Muslims.

Once again you promulgate the Fear Factor against decent, civilised Muslims who reject extremists such as bin Laden.

This is the last time I will engage in any debate with you Martin – you have proven yourself to be manipulative and intolerant – I have no time for such childish behaviour.

PS
For consideration of a much larger, inclusive non-interventionist god I suggest you check out Radio National’s:

God, the Universe and Everything
Sunday 2 April 2006

Summary
What can our understanding of the cosmos tell us about God, creation and our place in it? Father Bill Stoeger, a Jesuit priest and an astrophysicist, believes that science can help shed light on God's priorities in creation.
(Sunday at 7.10am, repeated Wednesday at 7.10pm)

This is a fascinating program which describes a god that is far above and beyond the vengeful creature described in your bible.

Regards

Dianne

Well Tim Priest has again been proven correct with the wave of Middle Eastern crime we are now experiencing.We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I think that the problem in Sydney is so enormous that the Iemma Govt cannot afford a full on attack on these criminals.Just an extra 2000 crims in gaol will cost the Iemma Govt in excess of $1.2 billion pa.It costs between 60 and 80 thousand dollars pa to keep one person in gaol.This will send our state broke,so the solution is just to pretend to be addressing the problem.

I think the judiciary have been given the nod to go soft on sentencing to avert possible economic disaster in the blow out of costs in our gaols system.

Morris has also a more immediate problem,if the police push too hard these criminal gangs are so numerous and well armed that they would overwhelm our police force and then the army would have to be called in the quell the uprising.This would be political suicide for Morris Iemma since his party would be admitting to the enormity of a problem of their own making.They are not going in hard on these criminals.They want the laws and regulations that tie police up in red tape and be in fear of been taken to the Anti-disrimination Board.

So when violence breaks out as in Cronulla,it is far easier and politically expedient to stop usaully law abiding "skips"from retaliating and thus keep an uneasy peace.

Just watch them orchestrate new spin every day to explain away the thuggery and lawlessness we have to put up with in this once beautiful and peaceful city.

Dianne

A common mistake is not taking the Bible as a whole, not knowing what kind of literature one is reading, failing to take account of the time, place and culture of the authors, and ideas about inspiration. I think you misrepresent God.

Its sad you think you are being abused when your beliefs are scrutinized but;

“Creeds must disagree: it is the whole fun of the thing. If I think the universe is triangular, and you think it square, there cannot be room for two universes. We may argue politely, we may argue humanely, we may argue with great mutual benefit; but, obviously we must argue. Modern toleration is really a tyranny because it is a silence. To say that I must not deny my opponent’s faith is to say I must not discuss it . . . It is absurd to have a discussion on Comparative Religions if you don’t compare them.” GK Chesterton

The point about Bin Laden and Khomeini was a subtle theological one. But I think you have unconsciously picked up on it. It is based on what is written in the Quran and Hadiths. The very same thing you are doing to the Christian Bible – giving an interpretation of the God described.

Do you see the hypocrisy again Scout? You are allowed to make judgments about the Christian God based on our holy scriptures but I am not allowed to do the same with Islam. I think this an eg of PC that is so fully absorbed in you that you praps can’t see how your beliefs arise from it. It is particularly intolerant of the Christian faith and traditions.

I have never called you names, but you have just finished calling me childish, manipulative, as well as described me as intolerant and disrespectful. Sad. I think you’re pretty good.

That program looks cool - cheers.

Our understanding of God has grown with time, we can see that in the Bible. Maybe that’s a revelation in itself?

Can't we argue politely and humanely for great mutual benefit?

Scout and Martin

Nothing is written in concrete. Nothing is black and/or white. There will always be shades of grey - no matter the issue.

The Christian Bible is a group of stories, handed down from generation to generation.

These stories are meant to be read in a lateral sense, not a literal one. But the inherent principles (general truths and/or laws) ought to be able to be applied in any setting. For example: there are some useful principles in the 10 Commandments.

We all have our own interpretations of what we read - as you are doing when you read this post.

Most of us ascribe a variety of meanings to different words - depending on the context.

I enjoy reading your posts but find it rather sad that you are at each other with every post.

Cheers to you both
Kay

Arjay, you are right. Tim Priest has been proven correct. In the light of events of the past week, posters on this thread should read the introductory article again and see who is now believable- Joseph Wakim or Tim Priest.

Wakim dismises Priest as "Sexing up stories about those evil Arabs"on the basis of one article in the SMH.
He accuses Priest of regurgitating "xemophobic prpaganda" and says that "Priest expects us to take his propheces, generalisations and expertise seriously"

This week has underwritten Priests analisis of Middle Eastern crime, and it may not be over yet as police expect more pay back.

The Multicultural Affairs Commission has always viewed multiculture through rose coloured glasses and will not acknowledge any problems.

In relation to the above post, read article "Lebonese join jobless queues" in 'The Australian' today.

Kalweb

Please, not a lecture from you too. My objection to Martin is that he does not accept my beliefs and tries to convert me by his lectures. Also he continues to condone other Christian posters like Coach, Numbat et al who insult and deride non christians like myself.

I would love to have a reasoned debate with Martin - but not on his terms;

he IS manipulative for example, calling Bin Laden and Khomeini 'good' Muslims is a deliberate slur on all Muslims. Does not the continued stereotyping of Muslims concern you at all?

I have all the time in the world for reasonable christians such as Shonga continues to be. I have no time to be bible bashed - which Martin is guilty of.

regards

BTW

Kay

I KNOW the world is not in back and white and am really offended by your ascertation.

I'm not trying to convert anyone - all I have done is try to encourage others to think about their reasons for painting ALL Muslims with the same brush. I question the reasons for this bigoted attitude.

If you have not been able to detect that I look for moderation rather than extremes in all my posts I really have to wonder whether you understand my posts at all.

I do not expect people to believe as I do - how many times do I have to say this? I just want to be able to place my POV and not receive a sermon - a reasonable exchange of views is all I ask.

And I KNOW that MY interpretation of god is not the same as Martin's, but this does not give him an excuse to lecture. Why can't we (Martin et al) agree to disagree?

But that never happens. It appears that Martin and his ilk won't be happy until I convert to Christianity and start condemning all Muslims the way they do.

I believe in live and let live. I don't like Islam anymore than I like any formal religion. But I believe in the inherent goodness in all people regardless of race, sex or creed. I have stated this before many times as well, Kay.

Fellow Human obviously can't answer my questions, he must be off crying somewhere, knowing that the logic of my argument in my last post is inescapable.

Redneck, you really ought to change your name, as the irrational set that post here would be pre-judging you. Your arguments are always clear, precise, and logical. It's good to know, when I watch the news & feel angry about what Muslims are doing to this great nation, that there are people who feel the same way.

Arjay, great post.

Scout is trying miserably to explain away his point. A "small number of Muslim extremists, just like there are in Christianity". Go away, come back when you are sane.

I guess ASIO do watch Methodists just as much as Muslims huh?

I hope the racist who wrote this (obvious he hates Anglo's from the subtleties in his article, amazing that he was a multicultural affairs commissioner) is feeling sick.

Tim Priest's claims are being witnessed right now, what do you say to that Arab racist? Doesn't it just make you sick that THEY hide behind the term racist, when their culture is the most xenophobic we've ever seen!

Muslim women only swimming lessons so us lowly kaffir don't contaminate them. Marriage rates among their own kind extremely high, never mix with us unless the woman converts to Islam.

How many inter-racial Muslim couples have you seen where a Muslim woman has married a non-Muslim Anglo?

None.

Xenophobic to the core. I can't wait until the pendulum swings, and our education departments are sterilised. Only then will the true racists be seen, and us whites who have been the adult and copped abuse all these years will explode like a battered housewife.

1000's of racial bashings, hundreds of rapes, a dozen racial murders (the boxer who was killed murdered an Anglo on ANZAC day 1998 in an Auburn pub, and that pig who got his Anglo girlfriend to organise a bomb attack was jailed for killing an Anglo at a Parramatta Hotel) yet we are racist?

Muslim leaders claim they are worried of a redneck backlash after the London attacks, in the midst of churches, not mosques, being burnt.

Four churches were burnt after Cronulla, so who brings religion into it?

I seen a tv ad recently about domestic violence. It ignores our multicultural identity, as all five guys giving excuses for hitting their wives are white. Surely one Muslim would be in it! I know domestic violence is extremely low in their community, but that is because it's not reported. They are where the white community was at the turn of last century, where it was acceptable practise.

The Muslim guy's excuse for hitting his wife would be the most worrying too, not like the Anglo guys who said they were drunk. He could say "My religion allows me to hit her" and those cultural relativists out there would agree, just as they think female genital mutilation is alright.

That old hag of a feminist Germaine Greer once said she supports female mutilation, so I guess she isn't a feminist at all is she?

Muslims are the most xenophobic people on the planet. Remember the evidence of their racism, the xenophobia, in how they're marriage practises are, 75% of Lebanese Muslim men go back to Lebanon to find a wife.

Imagine the outcry if we whites started going back to England to find a wife, to keep the blood as pure as possible? They really are NAZI's, and the Koran is the Mein Kampf, a totalitarian book that aims to subjugate all non-Muslims.

Death to America! Men Must have beard!

Ben...if that is true, 75% of Lebanese Muslim men find wives from Lebanon, that has rather serious implications for demography !
Are you sure about this ? is it not actually 70% find wives "within their own community" ? (in Australia and O'seas)

Scout, I really don't see too much specific 'blanket' condemnation of 'ALL' Muslims, but if you see it, please continue to condemn it.
I prefer to avoid such attacks, but nothing will stop me going gangbusters against Islam as a faith.

You tend to approach the issue from 'outside' any community of faith, which is ok as far as it goes, but I don't think you can possibly appreciate the gravity of doctrinal fundamentals such as found in Islam (note, I said 'doctrinal'). You see things in a broader minded social friendliness way, and again, thats great. But that does not explain the multitude of signs such as 'kill those who mock the prophet' etc which popped up during the cartoon controversy in LONDON.
Nor does it adequately explain the closeness of the head slicing and dicing crowd to the Koran while they carryout the beheadings.

What does explain these terrible actions are a) The Quran b) Hadith c) Sunna (example) of Mohammed.

You are always welcome to point out weaknesses in my own reasoning, and I'm sure Martin would welcome that also. What you call 'insults and lectures' Martin probably calls 'empassioned debate'.

To me, unless the fundamental source of the motivation for terrorist attacks in the name of Allah, are dealt with at the doctrinal level, we have no hope of stopping them.

Anyway, please don't be disheartened, your contributions are always valuable whether or not we agree with them.

Benjamin,

First, you keep painting all Muslims with the same brush.
You still didn’t respond to my argument which is: if Australian Muslims come from 25 different ethnic backgrounds, why is it only Lebanese youth that have this problem?

Why there is no Turkish, Egyptian, Malaysian, Indian, Iranian, Japanese Muslims gangs then? Neither you nor Philo could respond. The answer is simple: it’s a Lebanese youth issue.

Second, you either practice what you preach or you don’t.
You and few other posters have no place to attack “Muslims who don’t accept others” because you are one of the same material. You, Coach and a bunch of others are nothing more than ‘Christian Wahhabis’.

The idea of mutual dialogue is to accept all others as ‘ways of worship’ and only God will judge us all. If you are into the “religious post puberty” phase of I am right everyone else is wrong then you are not ready for dialogues.

To all Religious extremists:

1. I will continue to oppose religious fundamentalism – this applies to all religions.

2. I will continue to defend any people who are derided and vilified for their faith.

3. I will defend the right of all to express their opinions.

4. I will protest those who condone abuse as ‘passion’.

I also wish to point out that I can identify insincerity when I see it, as in Boaz’ “Anyway, please don't be disheartened, your contributions are always valuable whether or not we agree with them.”

The last thing I require is your false pity. Very dishonest for such a devout 'Christian'

But thank you for the increase in my already abundant determination to never give up the fight for liberty, equality and humanity.

Look the cold hard facts are, the majority of muslims 1.lack the ability to admit when they or their own are in the wrong 2.very rarely marry outside there own kind, and i say their own kind for the simple reason if they classed themselves truly australian they would have no problem allowing thier daughters to marry anglo australians, but they would prefer to send them overseas to find husbands,as they class anyone outsidee their religion as infidels.While this is allowed to occurr their numbers rise at a stagering rate. All i can say to people who would critisize my opinion is, would you still be critisizing me if a pack of dirty middle easterners gangraped youre daughter,wife,friend or stabbed them in the back then kick the crap out them until half dead or seriously injured or both,that is what they like to do. They are a problem, and it is not because of the opinions of people like myself or tim preist or anyone else that is negative toward them. It is purely their numerous negative actions toward everyday australians, trying to go about their daily routine or social life, they are responsible for the current state of north west sydney, the gang shootings, drugs, extortion rackets, car rebirthing they are into bloody everything. When is it going to stop I hope all the mongrels go around and shoot each other, so only the decent ones are left and i say decent in the respect of the ones who truly wish to be australian.Australian is defined as ;always willing to give another a fair go,but will only take so many kicks in the gut,well we have taken enough from this pack of dogs.

Fellow_Human,
The first two paragraphs of your post to Bengamin were most interesting as I have been thinkng along those lines for some time.

If the problems of not integrating, intolerance, rudeness, arrogance, contempt and antisocial behaviour are all. or mainly, from Lebanese males, let us say so. To hell with political correctness.

It is grossly unfair that Muslims of other national extractions are tainted because of the actions of one group.

If the Lebanese are to blame for the current situation we must identify them as such, not just refer to Muslims in general or those of Middle Eastern appearance. Other Muslims should distance themselves from the Lebanese males to avoid being painted with the same brush.

To Sydneysiders that say they are close to the problems. Is it mainly a Lebanese problem or are others involved? How do you find the conduct of Muslims of other national extractions?

Fellow_Human, Scout and Banjo

Thank you for your posts. Well said.

Cheers
Kay

Fellow_Human,
As I drove down Blaxcell St Grandville on Monday [the street where two were shot dead]I noticed all the media there interviewing households in the Street. As seen on TV they indicated they feared for their lives.

We have a Lebanese Muslim problem because we accepted refugees from Lebanon cleared by the UN during Malcom Frasers time instead of doing our own refugee status checks. The UN has no concept of Australian values and expectations of entrants.

We have accepted in Sydney a large influx of Lebanese Christians who have become very sucessful and great citizens. Our Governor in NSW is a Lebanese Christian and a beautiful person. It is not a Lebanese problem per-sa it is a combination of attitude based in religious pride and poor parenting, that characterises this group.

Threat and intolerance to persons of other religions in not strictly based in Lebanon, it is also in Parkistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afganistan, Indonesia, Malaysia etc,etc. The deaths based in religion is more noticable in Muslim territories. Though China and North Korea has been more organised in eradicating religon.

I think that's it's time to involve the Federal Govt in solving Sydney's crime dilemma.Even if Peter Debnam gets in,he will still face the major problem of not have enough money to confront and solve the violence and crime that Sydney suffers on a daily basis.The Telegraph has counted over 40 serious gun crimes in Sydney since Ist Jan 2006,with most happening in the south west of Sydney.

It is time for some tough practical decisions or slowly watch our city decay into economic and social oblivian.While a criminal may cost $60,000.oo pa to keep in gaol,they can cost much more in insurance costs,destruction of business, political/economic corruption.Once corruption takes hold as in third world countries,it feeds off itself and becomes almost impossible to defeat, without the destructive surgery that removes any malignant growth.

Our Govt pours millions into preventing a few people being harmed by bomb toting terrorists,yet there is an insidious less obivious,more destructive terrorism ,that is destroying our social and economic fabric every day.

We hear this morning that 6 of those involved in the Cronulla revenge attacks will have charges dropped because the Police Legal arm has determined that somehow their arrests will not stand up to legal scrutiny.Here we see again the unwillingness to go in hard on crime.We have a revolving door of crims getting light sentences and more than 50% re-offend and go back on the merry-go-round.

Just analyse our entire system or policing and law,it is designed to keep the crims out of gaol because it simply costs too much.

Also in today's news, two white supremacists involved in terrorist (bombing) attacks on Asian restaurants have been caught after they jumped bail.

If the truth be known why these revenge attackers had their case dismissed today by the police; is because of the threats of violence made by stand over men if any of them are convicted for the trashing of cars and property in the Eastern Suburbs.

I believe it is a no-go situation like Redfern. That is; don't raise their anger otherwise the situation will really be out of control with street violence. These Muslim youth believe they are gaining territoty by low activity terrorism in neighbouring streets. A visit to the former Sydney Muslim Youth Website, that was banned in 2003, would reveal they believe they must carry out jihad against the corrupt society in Australia. Their Website no longer spreads their sad agenda, but they still hold the same mindset: "Australian society must be destroyed because it is evil".

They do not respect the Police and it would mean deliberate confrontation with guns against the Police. That is why the Police merely escort them to the scenes of crimes rather than arrest them. The Police recorded the numberplates of the cars as they proceeded to the Eastern Suburbs but conviently lost the record when the charges were initially laid.

Plenty aspects have been highlighted with/during/by a recent war on terror, among which an ugly face of a traditional British racism constituting everything of this part of a British Dominion, established at the time in so-called Terra Nullius:

http://elecpress.monash.edu.au/pnp/view/abstract/?article=0000010320

“Lebanese Muslims are twice as likely to be unemployed, and those who have a job earn half as much as the average Australian. ... 39per cent of Lebanese Muslim men aged 25-44 were unemployed compared with 16 per cent of the general population.”

Please, be assured that a picture is not significantly different in any non-Christian non-Anglo-Celtic group in Howard’s Australia of re-joint rednecks equipped with England-issued-crown-passports but this search is emphasised on the Lebanese Arabs only as Arabic pressure on international affairs is being increasing globally

Dear Scout...
don't doubt my sincerity on this...

YOU ARE OUT OF ORDER !

Sorry.. u just cannot criticize some one as being 'insincere'....

I don't know if you had a bad day or whatever..but dont attack me unless ur sure.. and in this case, you are way out !

All you did by that response is demonstrate a 'small minded' attitude which cannot accept positive reinforcement from those with whom you disagree..

You are part of the mosaic of ideas here, and agree or not, your posts, as are mine (in my opinion) are valuable.

I'm not smiling in writing this because you need a dressing down on this one.

BD

I agree that my opinion is but a part of what makes OLO a complete whole. But MY OPINION is no less valid than yours - the fact that you take such issue with me reveals your inability to accept other people who think differently to you.

Therefore, I think I need to reiterate the following:

To all Religious extremists:

1. I will continue to oppose religious fundamentalism – this applies to all religions.

2. I will continue to defend any people who are derided and vilified for their faith.

3. I will defend the right of all to express their opinions.

4. I will protest those who condone abuse as ‘passion’.

But thank you for the increase in my already abundant determination to never give up the fight for liberty, equality and humanity.

If I was out of line, BD, I am sure that the OLO moderator would delete/suspend me.

Scout,
You posts rarely give us new understanding on the topic. You are obsessed with personal interaction. [Maybe it reflects your interpersonal skills in the workplace?] Debate the topic, not the people.

That extreme points of view are held does not make them invalid, even as you claim your mundane points of view does not make them more valid. Galileo was an extremist in his day and he had to establish his conclusions against people who preferred not to change.

I will repeat: Debate the topic and refrain from personalising attacks on people you consider extreme. There are extreme points of view and those holding them have every right to express them if they relate to the topic [As your defence states].

You may prefer to live in a mediochre opinionated forum because it does not conflict or move boundaries of thought, so please refrain from personalising opinion and identify your defence with the topic.

Scout,
Could we have some balance on this issue? Quote, "I will continue to oppose religious fundamentalism – this applies to all religions."

How about give us your opinion on the behaviour of Muslim Arabs in Sydney. Was Tim Priest position valid or mere scare mongering? Was he also right about the Asian gangs in Western Sydney; or is he merely capitalising on creating fear?

I happen to believe Tim Priest was substantially accurate in his observations and conclusions. In fact the Iemma Government also believes we have the problem he foretold and has now given us a force of 150 special Police to deal with Middle Eastern Crime in Western Sydney.

We do not have a problem with Middle Eastern Christian Youth [though nominal Christian youth can be equally criminal]. However they are not the target of the new task force. Lebanese Christian youth do not congreate in gangs with a strategy to cause havoch on a community. Are they extremist? How about some evaluation on: Are these Muslim youth extremist? Could your opinion be? "Well they may have been bedwetters and abused by their parents so we must allow for their social disfunction."

Philo

You raised some good points in your last post about Lebanese young males. I have worked with Christian Lebanese young people and have found them to be impeccable in their behaviour.

Why do you think that Lebanese young males who are of the Muslim faith generally behave in such awful gang-like ways? Could it be that as a result of so much inter-breeding that their intellectual functioning is not within the range of average? I am not being trite when I ask this question.

I agree with you about Tim Priest. I think that he has done a marvellous job. I have heard him interviewed on many occasions. He always comes across to me as a very sincere person who has the community's best interest at the forefront. I think that he is a man of integrity.

Cheers
Kay

Philo

I was responding to BD's rant. If you were being equitable you should have rebuked him for his continual failures to engage the topic.

Again, I notice that the more extreme christians never call out their brethren when they are out of line.

As for myself, the bulk of my posts make reference to the topic. I have made many comments on how the "fear factor" is being promoted by the Pro-Christian contingent.

The "fear Factor" is used constantly across OLO and directly relates to how Arab youth are being singled out for special denigration.

Unfortunately, unemployed male youth - with too much testosterone and time on their hands are a problem across society. The continual vilification of 'middle eastern appearance' males simply adds fuel.

When will you behave like the christian you claim to be and offer help to your fellow human beings instead of perpetuating hate?

This is why I made my statement. It is entirely a part of the topic and the overall problems we face.

You try to denigrate me and only succeed in making yourself appear ignorant and intolerant.

The Lebanese boys need help - they are born here and, therefore, are Australia's responsibility. They are a part of our society. And we have failed if they are hostile.

Yeah, read my previous post, Kay, to get an answer:

<Philo

You raised some good points in your last post about Lebanese young males. I have worked with Christian Lebanese young people and have found them to be impeccable in their behaviour.

Why do you think that Lebanese young males who are of the Muslim faith generally behave in such awful gang-like ways? ….
Cheers
Kay

Posted by kalweb, Sunday, 9 April 2006 7:10:03 PM>

They have NO opportunities in a land of xenophobs but some job in a family shop if any.

Would it make anyone better?

MikeM,
In the 1950 - 1960s we had thousands of "wogs" enter Australian society with their excessive decorated cars and homes painted purple. They did not have welfare but they dug the land and planted gardens, built up the Markets and fed the popolation of Sydney. Today they are the upper- middle class. They suffered the racial abuse but it was the abuse that gave them determination to change their image and status. They did! They were mainly nominal Catholics and their faith gave them pride in themselves. They soon learned to laugh at themselves. Hense the Enmore Theatre productions.

MichaelK

Give me a break mate. Of course young Lebanese males have opportunity in this country. They have the same opportunities as anyone esle. If they want to work they can. And like their white Aussie dole bludging counterparts, they probably do not want to work, and prefer a welfare lifestyle.

Young Lebanese Muslim males are not all dole bludgers, just as all young white Aussie males are not dole bludgers. To say so of either group is a nonsense.

Even so, I wonder how they can afford their highly expensive cars and sound systems if/when they are the dole?

Cheers
Kay

A support new was introduced in 1943 that is why one could only be wondering why cheap slaves from post-war Europe, still barely speaking elementary English nowadays if still alive, were not paid at the time. And, predominantly, their professional levels hardly fit any professional category in their countries – read statistics, Philo.

Speaking of luxury cars of young Lebanese could eventually recall vehicles of young Chinese-descent guys: maybe, tickets to Australia are of a price not everyone can afford?

Please, talk anything you please of Australian opportunities and dole-blungers: I am starting no migration process at the Australian embassy somewhere on a globe these days and need no propaganda to be lured into.

Michaelk what a cop out.Lebanese people have have ample opportunities here.Some are just disabled by their religious beliefs and genetic disabilities.

I know Chinese people who will work 7 days a week 12 hrs a day at menial chores and be more successful economically than many of our so called educated professionals.

Let's cut to the chase,it's about discipline,determination and education.How can you be enlightened and educated when your Muslim philosophy teaches you to be envious,hateful and ignorant of different philosophies that are far more successful than your own?

MY "Muslim philosophy", Arjay?

I am educated and delighted, and I am experience in Australian reality that what makes me see a little difference of treatment of non-Christian/non-Anglo-Saxons (Anglo-Celts as many prefer writing around) in Australia. If this is an equity and happiness - you make me laughing: “I know Chinese people who will work 7 days a week 12 hrs a day at menial chores and be more successful economically than many of our so called educated professionals.” Are THEY happy for being upon generations accustomed to TAKE AWAY family business factually? Not those people I know.

Michaelk you miss the point,people don't mind doing menial chores so long as there is a reward for all the pain.Just look at our amateur swimmers,nothing could be more boring than pacing the black line at the bottom of a pool for six hours a day.This is what is wrong about our communist tax system,it punishes innovation and hard work.

Many of our ethnic workers do succeed in boring menial jobs,it may be an intense work existence of 10 to 20 yrs but most do achieve their goal of a comfortable nest egg that makes them independant of our wasteful social security system.

I see a significant difference between sportsmen workouts and doing menial job because “people don't mind doing menial chores so long as there is a reward for all the pain”: a people you speculate about have no choice simply.

Placing in a no-choice position, and not Muslims only, is a very Australian socio-engineering.