Out of the Green corner comes (one or the other) with a flurry of lightning jabs and crosses interspersed with numerous feints.

Impressive, but there seems to be no weight behind the blows and their opponent dances around, grinning.

An assertion that Islam is a religion of peace, made by one Muslim to another who believes in the spread of Islam by violence is acceptable, does not make it so. There must be a debate, using the words of the Quran, in its entirety, to support or refute the assertion. There must be a clear winner in the debate.

At http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-34776-Close-Jamia-Hafsa-demolish-Lal-Masjid-Altaf
The Muttahida Qaumi Movement chief, Altaf Hussain, said "Islam is a religion of peace and its teachings are for peace and brotherhood, but these Taliban are the enemies of religion, he said. He asked the (rally) participants that whether anybody who kills Muslim in the name of Islam, is Muslim? The emotionally charged supporters shouted, “Kafir, Kafir” (unbeliever).

Also, paraphrasing, without naming a religio-political party, Altaf criticized holding dialogue with the Taliban and termed all those who support Taliban as, “munafiq” (hypocrites). "They are cunning, hypocrite and damaging Muslims under the garb of Islam and our last Prophet (Muhammad) had clearly given instructions that they are out of Islam", he said.

What we have in Pakistan is a division along the lines of a debate which is not being had, with each side calling each other unbelievers and hypocrites. Proof by bold assertion of one side or another is not a debate, not introspection of Islam.

Whether the government uses the contitutional amendment to purge the likes of the Imam of Lal Masjid and close his masjid and madrassa, is yet unknown. So what if it did, what would it prove? Nothing other than the government has the might to do so. It does not prove that Islam is a religion of peace. When I see purging, I'll concede the fact of it, but I do not concede that purging will demonstrate that Islam is on trial in Pakistan.

Re my ""secularism versus Islam." Yes, I erred, it should have been military dictatorship, not secularism, of course. Pakistani secularists are censored out of the way by the state, as if they don't exist http://national.deseretnews.com/article/1656/secularists-band-together-to-fight-pakistans-twittertheocracy-blockings.html

cont'd

To NC, I won't replace the word extremist for "lunatic". I support the strongest action by our authorities against extremist violence, by incitement or by deed, against Muslims. Full stop. I will speak out wherever I see it, or see incitement to it as the vast majority of Australians will.

However, I cannot argue against the ideology of these extremists if it is based on perceived Quranic incitement to violence against them, as seen in its entirety and not just its parts. That will have to remain your job, on both sides of the divide, as I am unconvinced such extremists are ideologically incorrect on this, based on argument I've seen here and elsewhere. Label me as you wish for holding this stance.

Food for Thought:-
The trauma of seeing two innocent die at the hands of a lunatic is driving people angry; understandably so. Even one such death is too many.

These very people become so insensitive to the nation which has buried 56012 of its innocent victims of terrorism and is living with double that number maimed. Their trauma is unimaginable, yet we sit on judgement on those people wether they have come up to our expectations of counter terrorism or not.

Ever heard the name Aitzaz Hassan? You might have. A nine grader, well built for his age, who confronted a suicide bomber. He and two of his friends saw that nearly 25 years old lurking suspiciously near their school, in Hangul Pakistan. The protruding detonator showed them what it was. The friends took cover but Aitzaz threw stone at the bomber. The suicide bomber charged to get inside the school. A scuffle with Aitzaz made him blow up at the school gate. Aitzaz died but none of his school mates lost life. A national hero and recipient of international awards, that is Aitzaz; please google his name. Today was first anniversary of this heroic sacrifice, in Pakistan

I do not know of a nation which has suffered more at the hands of terrorism, than Pakistan. And I do not know of a braver individual effort against terrorism than Aitzaz's.

These people deserve to be spared being judged by us .......but then it is your judgement and you are free to do with it, what you like.

Luciferase,

Thanks for your response.

In your

<<I support the strongest action by our authorities against extremist violence, by incitement or by deed, against Muslims. Full stop.>>

I read your suggestion for “strongest action by our authorities” against those who incite violence against Muslims.

I regard this as a sensible statement.

Like before, I will leave the topic of ground realities in Pakistan to McAdam, he will, I understand respond to this message as well.

I can share with you one thing with certainty about Pakistan:
Both religious and so-called secular parties (ANP plus few independent voices) in Pakistan NEVER got more than 5% seats (either side) in the National Assembly. You know Altaf Hussain’s vote bank, I understand, it is not ideological.

Private press including private TV in Pakistan, according to my (first-hand) knowledge freely publishes and broadcasts views from both sides [ The (new) 21st amendment aims to limit access of the terrorist/extremists to the public media]. The traditional check on secular (and also purely religious) voice is the public who are not keen for the either, as the numbers I give above show.

I will offer a brief comment on the last paragraph of your second message. You must have heard about Dr Iqbal (you have been to Pakistan), the man who presented in the idea of Pakistan in early 1930s.

Iqbal holds Mulla (the Imam in a typical Mosque) in enormous ridicule.

I produce one of Iqbal’s Persian verses with translation.

“Muktab-e- Mullah o asrar e kitab – kor e madar zad o noor e aftab”
(Mullah’s madrasa and mysteries of the Book (Quran) – The blind-by-birth and the sunlight)

Masses do pray behind these Imams, but never trust them for real life leadership role.

Hi NC/McAdam,

as you suggest,

"<<I support the strongest action by our authorities against extremist violence, by incitement or by deed, against Muslims. Full stop.>>

I read your suggestion for “strongest action by our authorities” against those who incite violence against Muslims."

I fully support that position - as well as an addition: " .... or by Muslims."

They are not exceptional: the law should come down hard on ANYBODY who incites, or carries out, violence, whether they are Callathumpians, Buddhists, Christian, Jews, Muslims, Yazidis or Hindu - especially random violence, especially unprovoked.

I'm sure that, as a moderate Muslim, you would agree :)

And I also fervently agree with Luciferase's point about genuine and full debate - one-word condemnations are not debate: debate has to take place on the field of discourse, discussion, ideology, assertions and detailed rebuttals.

I look forward to that here in Australia, and in Pakistan - indeed, in all countries where terrorists rely on some sort of supposed ideological support.

The funny thing about Australians, I venture to suggest, is that most of us will have to be convinced about the rightness, or superiority, of some purported body of principles: and I can't really see that happening, Islam seems just too ridiculous.

So I guess it's the sword for us :)

Joe