Luciferase'
So, you have visited Pakistan and have read a newspaper and possibly some blogs; that you claim, make you an expert on Pakistan. Let us examine your expertise....and you asked for it.

Peshawar city is subdivided into three parts and cantonment is one third of the city of over three million population. Military families are a fraction of this mostly civilian population. The children who died were civilians and military. You are wrong when you say " vengeance for the deaths of children of the military."

You are also wrong to call it vengeance for this incident, as the operation Zarb e Azb started 15 June last year, in response to over 50,000 deaths (56012 till 31 December 2014) in various terrorism related incidents, and attack on Karachi airport was its trigger.

"It'll be business as usual, soon enough"
They passed the 21st ammandment of the constitution today, with not a single dissenting vote; this to you is sign of business as usual? Pity on your assessment.

"secularism versus Islam."
Secularism, is never an option for this country created in the name of religion. So much for your knowledge of the country, which is pathetic indeed.

"Where is the denouncement from the ideological stance."
Obviously, you could not understand the speeches made on the assembly floor, because they were in Urdu. Nor could you read the newspaper editorials because they were in Urdu. You are claiming the ignorance as an excuse. The ignorant you.

And did you notice, while not a single vote came against this specifically targeted amendment of the constitution, because of the overwhelming public support, the parties having links with Madrassas did not vote; Jamaat e Islami and Jamiat e Ulma e Islam (F).... And you can't see the battle lines drawn....myopic you.

Time is needed here as beliefs don't change overnight. Remember the example of followers of David Koresh, who still believe, he was Christ, he was God?

Now you have exposed your ignorance and foolhardiness by claiming to be an expert on some thing you have no clue of. Do you see? Others can

Luciferase,

"There is plenty in the Pakistan... about steps to combat terrorism directly, such as with military court legislation, but I have found nothing on countering the ideology. Please direct me to details on any ideological purge that is seriously attacking the root problem, and I will yield the point."

Following is an extract from Dawn, the news paper you say you read,updated three hour ago and it contains the provisions for action against misusing religion for terrorism;

"The preambles ....."special measures for speedy trial ...relating to terrorism,... “any terrorist or terrorist group using the name of religion or a sect and members of such armed groups, wings and militias”.......

(iii) Any person who is or claims or is known to belong to any terrorist group or organisation using the name of religion or a sect and raises arms or kidnaps any person for ransom or causes death of any person or injury, or is in possession, storage, fabrication or transport of explosives, firearms, instruments, articles, suicide jackets or vehicles designed to be used for terrorist acts, or receives or provides funding from any foreign or local sources for such illegal activities and acts or does any act to overawe the state or any section of the public or a sect or a religious minority or to create terror or insecurity in Pakistan or attempts to commit any of the said acts, within or outside Pakistan shall be punished under this act;

(iv): Any person who is or claims or is known to belong to any terrorist group or organisation using the name of religion or a sect, commits an offence mentioned at serial Nos......."

The constitutional amendment number 21 is only the tip of the iceberg; please Google yourself, the civil society challenging the zealot Imam of Lal Masjid and calls for closure if this masjid and attached madrassa, called Jamia Hafsa.

Please yield the point, as you promised.

Yes, an other point, Army Public Schools, as per their website have "50% seats in each class ... for children of civilians."

Luciferase,

Apart from the reactions of a nation to terrorism, comprehensively covered by McAdam (his messages of the 7th, 12:52 am and 3:50 am), who seems to know the ground realities way better than any of us in this thread, I will restrict myself to the questions I raised with thanks to you for attempting an answer.

I share your disgust with IS, as you may have noticed in my previous posts. What they do in the name of religion is not much different from the one who unleashed brutalities on hundreds of thousands of civilians with his infamous announcement “God said to me George”……

IS will meet its doom, I have no doubt about it. The developing formidable resistance to these jokers and their likes within the Islamic world has my voice in it.

I value your social stance and mine is quite similar to that. Initiatives of justice have my contributions: verbal, written or monitory wherever practical.

Now my questions: With an implied “Yes” to my first question, you appear to have misunderstood the second one. It was clearly about “what you have done against this lunatic-fringe” given clearly that “there is a lunatic-fringe in the west spreading hate and intolerance against Muslims.” I am all ears for your response to this question.

Secularism vs religion later (time permitting), let me let you know that I personally believe for human reason to be an important guiding light for human society to progress. I may also mention here the fact that the age of reason has yet to discover a just social principle that would contradict any of those revealed by Quran about 1400 years ago. I do see content of this statement possibly initiating an ignorant reaction from the loudmouths – but I will not waste my time on them.

The reason I brought it up is the derogatory reference to “Quranic defenders” at the end of your message.

Quran’s message on social issues of human societies: IT IS ALL ABOUT JUSTICE.

Please draw my attention to any Quranic reference which you think suggests otherwise.

McAdam/NC,

Forced marriage in Australia Four Corners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUktnJ49TaQ

So if the mainstream media is full of lies, and the information on the internet are false, who then do we listen to?

Why do Muslim want to only look after their brothers and sisters of Islam? Where do Non Muslims (infidels) fit in the picture? Where is “Love Thy Neighbour”.

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/muslim-creed/muslim-belief/174982-why-does-allah-allow-suffering-and-evil-in-the-world.html
“If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants." (Fatir:45)

But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Qur’an tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:

If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)

3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah’s Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Qur’an as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.”

Cont...

McAdam/NC

Why do they call Muslim converts Reverts? I hear and read that Islam says we were all born Muslims. Do you agree?

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2015/01/03/egypts-al-sisi-makes-extraordinary-speech-on-islam/

Survey:
http://www.onislam.net/english/component/poll/217-do-you-think-muslims-have-so-far-done-a-good-job-in-presenting-prophet-muhammad-to-the-world.html

Do you think Muslims have so far done a good job in presenting Prophet Muhammad to the world?
Hits Percent Graph
No
460 67.4%
Yes
165 24.2%
No idea
57 8.4%

Well if Muslims themselves don’t think they make a good impression on the world, how do you expect the rest of us to think?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/muslimsforasafeamerica/2013/01/why-did-prophet-muhammad-go-to-war/

Why Did Prophet Muhammad Go To War?

“There’s no doubt that later Muslim rulers used force to spread Islamic rule. But Muslims today are divided about the Prophet’s personal legacy regarding justifications for the use of military force. Some Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force to spread Islamic rule, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today. However, other Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force only for self-defense of the small Muslim community, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today.”

“Question: Why did the Muslims require Christian Arab and Jewish tribes in northern Arabia to pay taxes to the Muslims in exchange for Muslim promises of protection? Was this a defensive step to take allies and resources away from an enemy, the Christian Roman Empire? Was it to spread Islamic rule?”

“It is written as "accept Islam and then you will safe, and if you rejected Islam you will be responsible for your people' sins". Quite implicit message.” Dar al Salaam. In other words you will only get peace if you have submitted to Islam.”

Cont.....

Hi Constance,

On force and violence: your quote,

"There’s no doubt that later Muslim rulers used force to spread Islamic rule. But Muslims today are divided about the Prophet’s personal legacy regarding justifications for the use of military force. Some Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force to spread Islamic rule, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today. However, other Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force only for self-defense of the small Muslim community, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today.”

raises the question for small children: how did the spread of Islam occur ?

From Arabia across the Middle East ?

Across North Africa, down into sub-Saharan Africa [hence the 1300-year-old slave trade], and into Spain, southern Italy and France (even into Switzerland), and across Central Asia to Mongol-controlled China, from which Kublai Khan menaced even Japan and Vietnam.

Later, right to the gates of Vienna. Quite a wide spread of 'peace'.

But was all that really done peacefully ? Hmmmm, something tells me 'no'.

Muslims wish to convert the world, yet in Australia (according to Bob Birrell, 1999) inter-marriage between Muslims and other Australians is the lowest of any religious group. So, how is conversion to take place ?

So let's put this rubbish about Islam being a religion of peace behind us and recognise it for what it has always been, and now is. I'm sure there are Muslims who have no intention of every going to war with their non-Muslim neighbours, live and let live. But a tiny minority is all it takes.

Straw-man arguments now please, NC/McAdam, dodge the issues :)

Joe