bigred, I agree with nairbe.

It goes beyond testing -

* it goes to the outcomes of testing and trialling, and whether outcomes constitute proof or verification;

* it goes to what types of trial or tests are appropriate; after

* considering the belief can be false, or based on false premisses/propositions, and testing those aspects, too.

Moreover, there is an aspect of changing and updating beliefs and approaches based on new information and reflection.

""In the light of the present plight of Christopher Hitchins [of having oespohageal cancer] ... it might be a timely warning that 'my way' rather than Gods way can have regrettable consequences."
.. ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 7 July 2010 9:06:03 AM

Yes, bet Galatians 6 is getting a good work-out for Christopher Hitchens, especially 6:8

Galatians 6
8.The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Perhaps you might follow 6:9
9.Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Or perhaps you follow the view "some are more equal than others"
10.Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Personally, I'm convinced by the vast weight of medical evidence that smoking and excessive drinking aren't very good for you. I don't think you need a big bogey man in the sky in order to lead a healthy life, nor indeed to understand the consequences of your actions.

I like this piece of twisted logic:

<< Secular parents have no more right to dictate what canNOT be in schools as Christians (or Muslims/hindu's etc) have to dictate what MUST be in schools. But it's not about 'rights' per se..it's about democracy. No 'right' is infringed if, as a result of the democratic process.. we have chaplains in schools. No 'right' is infringed if children are offered a non compulsory opportunity to know more about The Faith. >>

Aside from the fact that there was absolutely nothing democratic about the insidious introduction of chaplains into public schools by the Howard government, it seems that Boazy is unaware that precisely the same argument could be mounted by those, for example, who wanted to implement Islamic teaching and chaplains in schools.

I would argue against any kind of religious instruction or proselytising in public schools, but Boazy leaves himself way open to criticism of his usual hypocrisy - but I guess he's used to it. Parents who want to brainwash their kids with religious hocus pocus should do so in the home, at church/mosque/whatever, or send their unfortunate offspring to religious schools.

AGIR... "Secular parents have no more right to dictate what canNOT be in schools as Christians (or Muslims/hindu's etc) have to dictate what MUST be in schools"... hmmmm, well, actually, within a secular nation that values a public space such as a public school, there is a good reason to keep out the evangelising and proselytising of any/all religions, and non-religions too.

One no more wants bands of evangelical atheists let loose in schools than the more traditional religious terrorists, such as those within the Baptist church, Jensenites, Pellites, CTFM, AOG-Hillsong, CoC, and all the rest of 'em.

And I suspect they would not appreciate Jewish or Muslim extremists wandering through schools either.

"But it's not about 'rights' per se..it's about democracy"... indeed, and 'democracy' is well served by the secular public square, but the lies and deceit engaged in by NSCP supporters knows no bounds at all.

"No 'right' is infringed if, as a result of the democratic process.. we have chaplains in schools"... but there has been no 'democratic' process involved in shoehorning chaplains into schools.

"No 'right' is infringed if children are offered a non compulsory opportunity to know more about The Faith"... there are a few points here.

1) As Deepnorthener has said above, the chaplains are everywhere, and are not policed, and know nothing about who should and should not have dealings with them.

2) They are not supposed to be promoting any religion, and certainly not one above others.

3) All sorts of 'rights' are infringed, as well as 'rules', not to mention 'common decency'.

4) Squeers has outlined a reasonable expectation for public schools, and that does not involve being a place for religion to fiind new recruits, it actually involves 'education', a rarity, hardly to be found in our schools as a primary imperative.

As for your gloating over Hitchins cancer, the first I have heard of it, I find it just a little bit, well, sick on your part to be hinting that your god has punished Hitchins as a result of his unbelief.

The mark of a 'not real' Christian'?

Schools are for learning! Religion has been the driving force of man-kind
from day one. It’s in our blood! In our history, our Art, and so many other
aspects of our lives. At least in a place of open learning our children will
obtain the true facts and may-be some healthy debate and make up their
Own minds as free thinking (educated) individuals! Much better then ill
informed bias individuals, suffering foot-in-mouth due to ignorance!

Petersen:
<Religion has been the driving force of man-kind
from day one. It’s in our blood! In our history, our Art, and so many other aspects of our lives.>

This is a crucial point that's behind the general scepticism I've been trying to bring to other debates on other threads. Another way of thinking of what Petersen says above is "ideology". In this case our cultural indoctrination (ideology) casts institutionalised religion as an untouchable norm, whether subscribed, to whatever extent, or not. In our "secular" society, outrages like fundamentalist Christian Chaplains (the overwhelming majority) and their "curricular" programmes (and agenda!) in state schools are barely even noticed by most parents, whether agnostics, atheists or religious "moderates" of one stamp or another. This is because, I think, religion has long been such a staple (or else symbiotically invisible) in Australian life, such a cultural norm, as to be "tolerated" as a given, indeed a benign presence (despite constant headlines about ecclesiastical paedophilia and other abuses). I'm sure many parents blithely think it "might even do the little buggers some good". The fact is that religious instruction and other Chaplain facilitated programmes, as well as their overall influence in school, are fundamentally at odds with the concept of "education" and the ordinary tenets of reason, enquiry and learning.
It's ideology that gives religion an unthinking free pass into our children's playgrounds, classrooms and minds (as well as their parent's trust or indifference), just as it's ideology that exempts the religion "industry" from being accountable or taxable. Even the British Monarchy is under pressure to account for themselves and to pay their way and their taxes, as they should be!
We live in a highly eclectic culture and diverse belief systems play a role in most people's lives, which makes it all the more problematic and unethical to institutionalise any of them, especially in the form of child grooming, and in the name of "State Education". It's a bloody outrage and about time Australians woke up from their ideological slumber---on other issues too!