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The Forum > Article Comments > An open letter to the Prime Minister from Australia’s secular parents > Comments

An open letter to the Prime Minister from Australia’s secular parents : Comments

By The Australian Secular Lobby, published 5/7/2010

There should be a wall of separation between the religious proselytising ambitions of church recruiters and our children.

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Because the continuance of our civilisation depends upon our rational response, as a population, to challenges.

Religious fundamentalism and bilical literalism (not christians) do not permit other than adherence to a merely literary tradition, as interpreted by their particular sects cultural traditions (biblical or not). This cannot be rational.

The faithful so often conflate the necessary traditions of service, and spiritual and self-improvement with the just-so stories that (may) have been the limit of our predecessors capacity to explain the world. To the severe detriment of their capacity to deal with real problems.

Imagine an infections diseases expert who was not aware that resistance genes can evolve from almost any catalytic sequence? I guess he's still using plain penicillin on front-line diseases. Imagine and STD expert constrained by purely religious reasons from distributing condoms in a known promiscuous population in which his religion is not recognised anyway. I guess he just advises restraint.

Secularism is mainstream. The term "secular" has become a perjorative used mainly by insulated fundies, as if secularism was not what protected them from other christians and vice-versa.

As to the legal status of secularism, it is largely automatic. In criminal matters, the decision is based on what action a jury of peers finds "reasonable" or "unreasonable". In the greater world, likewise, sooner or later.

However "reasonable" depends on more than what you believe. The thought experiment of "what if our positions were reversed" comes in too. The removal of state religion from our governmental system, and the subsequent wind-down of church involvent in public affairs has it's heart in the catholic/anglican issues of the 16/17th centuries. Neither was good enough for the other, and as a result, neither is good enough for the rest of us.

All other religions have a similar problem - are they even true?
Oops, religion tripped at the first hurdle, still stumbling.
religion, all of it, is optional.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 25 July 2010 6:52:15 PM
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correction, parentheses on second line should read "(not *just* christians), in order to include fundies and "scripture" literalists of all kinds.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 25 July 2010 7:06:35 PM
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Rusty... doesn't your doctor use leaches?

My, I am sure they are mentioned in Luke, or was it Matthew?

Once we move beyond the words that are writ, we play with the unknown.

That's what people like Dan, and many others on OLO, those who so cling to 'the Bible', never see doctors, or make use of any technology, like TV or The Googles, or even The Internets.

Science brought those evil doings about, and not God, so they must be wrongheaded and dangerous.

How do they post here though?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Sunday, 25 July 2010 9:45:24 PM
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TBC,

Many hypocritical christians like their doctors to apply the products of modern understanding while covering it with a veneer of christianity. I recall a yank televangelist welcoming the wife of the previous pastor back from the mayo, while of course recommending faith healing to the congregation. Actual expensive treatment might interfere with tithes, after all. Tithes are for *pastor's* wife's treatment, not yours.

Suffice to say, presented with any medical condition whatsoever, you would not want it treated by Paul the roman doctor who supposedly accompanied "joshua". You might reasonably prefer even myself (in an absolute emergency, of course).

Some cling so hard to the literal interpretation of their literary tradition as to insist on the "flood", or Six-day creation, even so recently as 6 thousand years ago. Why not discuss which woods hansl and gretl walked in?

That being said, you will find excellent instructions for a home-made enema and crop-rotation in there too. This only says that the pervading wisdom of the time included some good ideas that the writers of the bible could not leave out without being laughed out of town.

Distinguishing between the necessary (not fouling your well) and the crap (say, not cooking a goat foetus in it's own mother's milk) is a job for adult humans with judgement, not fundies.

I wonder why christians sre so worried about policing others, rather than their own ranks?

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 25 July 2010 10:41:26 PM
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Yes Rusty.

Why do any cling to the lies, obfuscation and trickery, not just fundies?

Here is why some do, the ability to live the high life as parasites on the backs of others:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sunday-telegraph/taxpayers-support-lavish-hillsong-lifestyle/story-e6frewt0-1225896526584

http://www.perthnow..com.au/news/national/hillsong-why-people-sign-up-for-a-lifetime-deal/story-e6frg15u-1225896551731

The 'news' here is not new, but has come out again because of Xenophon's Senate hearings into the dodgy nature of religion and their taxfree bludging.

Everyone loves to hate Houston's Hillsong, and Xenophon's silly filmstar's religion, but the truth is, they are all at this lark, ripping us all off in exchange for 'magic potions', like Lourdes, the Shroud, slivers of 'the cross', bones, and of course the 'it can never change' position of never-ever allowing women in as priests or bishops.... never mind as Popes.

Read the defences posted here... 'I live in hope that it will change', 'it is better to be inside than outside', 'the church provides a sense of belonging' and so on.

My son flogs phones, and suffers the less-than-adult wage rate while paying full commercial rates for rent, food, petrol and car costs, earning considerably less than $60k a year, while paying tax.

I see no reason why the halfwit pastor down the road, who says he can grow amputated limbs back, and pluck the Devil's serpents from the chest of people who stray into Indigenous lands where they are cursed by 'evil spirits', should be given a tax free wage for that 'fantastic' public service.

But posters here will flock to his defence, some quoting 'freedom of religion' lines.

The 'joke' has a grip that is hard to be free from, even when you are not a supporter of it.

The cancer it spreads through our society is not fully mapped, or understood, and sadly, most people have no desire to start the task, even though if the mapping produced clear evidence of the benefit of having charlatan's placed throughout society, like the Kings Jester at Court, they could be proven correct in their claims.

The cry, 'don't rock the boat' can be heard, lest it all comes tumbling down like a deflated Hindenburg.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 26 July 2010 8:54:40 AM
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You’ve said that, for the sake of civilisation, you’ll it take it upon yourself to give us all a rational response. And you give us insults, leaches, and condoms. That, Rusty, is an emotional response.

You’ve continually said our ‘secular’ nation has a legal basis. When asked what that legal basis is you can’t give us anything specific. You try and distinguish between what’s optional and what’s not. A lot of what we all discuss here is optional. That’s comes with the territory on an ‘opinion’ website. But until you give us something specific, then everything you say is optional.

We could discuss all myriad of things concerning religion and the history of science, from Biblical hermeneutics to Hillsong personalities and the ongoing development of Western medicine, but I thought I came here to discuss secularism.

I’ll summarise my position again, and then if you guys want to continue rubbishing religion, then you’re welcome to yourselves. But I don’t think religion will die anytime soon under your insults. The point of the secular ideal is that it helps facilitate us all getting along.

The ASL article was large on rhetoric but lacking in basis. It’s antagonism towards all things religion was well on display, although that in itself ought not be the basis for a secular principle. The word secular has not revealed itself to have any legal basis. But the constitution does guarantee freedom of religion and specifies that the government will not adopt or prescribe any one particular religion. Most Christians support the idea of secularism because we don’t want the government prescribing what is orthodox belief or precluding belief. Secular does not mean the banishment of all religion, for that would imply a prescription of atheism. It isn’t surprising that some schools’ programs may entail a church or religious element considering the history of our nation and the current levels of association and identification with churches. I support any school program that promotes the wellbeing of kids and their development, that are well run, and find a level of support within the local school community
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Monday, 26 July 2010 10:23:56 AM
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