Runner... "killing of unborn babies which is promoted and encouraged by secularist" ... what on Earth does this mean?

Are you suggesting that, say, Hon Michael Kirby, is a baby killer?

Or any other person who believes in a 'secular' approach to life?

Why do you confuse 'secular' with so many other words?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you just ignorant of these things?

Now, do you also believe that your god sent the bush fires to 'punish' people for some state based law?

If so, can you explain where the 'lurv' of you god kicks in?

Secular. "of or relating to the world, or to things not religious, sacred or spiritual" this is how the MACQUARIE dictionary defines it.
Runner you really seem to have become over emotive as to what constitutes secularism. If you are a satanist you are not secular, nor are you secular if you are pagan, hindu, budist and for that matter a stalinist. Being religious is "the quest for the values of the ideal life" again the MACQUARIE. This does not invoke the name of god and does not require a god to be religious.
I can only take your accusation that 80 000 in this country are killed by secularists to mean you are invoking the "right to life position" in this debate?
Secularists are not devoid of morals nor are morals the domain of the faithful. My fingering of the catholic church was an easy example but by no means am i proportioning blame to them alone.
Belief, whether it be in god or an ideology is dangerous and needs exposing for what it is. Belief means "i don't know". Sometimes you have to accept that there is no answer to the questions you have and to continue the search is the outcome. But if you have your concrete belief you are left to hate, mistrust and destroy what you don't understand.

Nairbe I think you might be a bit confused. You have just written "Belief, whether it be in god or an ideology is dangerous and needs exposing for what it is. Belief means "i don't know". Sometimes you have to accept that there is no answer to the questions you have and to continue the search is the outcome. But if you have your concrete belief you are left to hate, mistrust and destroy what you don't understand." Well, I hate to tell you but belief is the beginning of all learning. You believe that something might work so you try it, and when you try it you might make a few mistakes but you will learn from the experience what works and what doesn't and as you proceed, your belief will become fact because you will "know" what works and what doesn't. Belief is the basis for all knowledge and is only dangerous if your beliefs are untried or untested. It would appear that you don't believe that there is a God. You are entitled to that opinion and I respect it, but you shouldn't show your ignorance by rambling. I agree that we sometimes have to accept that we don't have the answers to all of our questions but that doesn't mean that there aren't answers. It just means that we don't have the answers yet

As horrendous and ungodly as the catholic church has been, they are insufficiently answerable as a public tax-exempt instutution to correction, punishment and disbandment. Greater punishment should devolve to the individual citizens that committed horrors in it's name. *they* should definitely not enjoy the finacial protection of the church, at the expense of those deserving whom the church might rightly serve.

What runner fails to comprehend is that individuals answer only to themselves, and only to his "god" thingy if should happen (against all odds) to exist.

For someone with "faith" in "god", runner wants awfully to act as if "god" is lazy in runner's own eyes, and needs his unthinking, and incompetant help.

All in time, runner.

Rusty.

Bigred, Yes your right the whole thing has slipped to a ramble.

I get your point about belief but don't agree. If a concept or theory are formed they are developed, challenged and then proven or disproven. When someone believes in something they are rarely moved from their position. I haven't noticed that islam has an active department to explore and challenge the writings of the Quran. Actually if one was to actively disprove the Quran they will most likely have a bounty on their head. This is the same with all faiths, if you challenge their lack of logic and credibility they will simply call you a non believer and ignore you or kill you.

I was actually expecting to be pulled up on the religious point. Using the definition i have, one would then consider all systems of faith or governance to be religious. I see "religious" as meaning that one becomes set within it's faith and cannot be moved.

TBC.... a 'real' Christian is very easy to define. All you have to do is go to the Gospels.. read the message...then goto Acts and see how it was 'Acted' out. Then.. peruse the letters for more guidance about what's not ok and ok... and Revelation for some hints about the future...

and voila.. ur up to speed.

There are many variations within various traditions.. but mostly the points are rather minor in the bigger scheme of things.

What is a 'real' Christian ? What did Jesus ask people to do ?

Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" MARK 1:14FF

Could it be any clearer ? You don't need me or runner or anyone to define it... it's there in plain language.

1/ Repent (from sin and unbelief)
2/ Believe (in the Gospel of the Kingdom of God) which is about Christ himself...as King.

Some groups sprinkle....others immerse... some baptize Children..others confirm.. within those traditions we have a beautiful unity of spirit.

Secular parents have no more right to dictate what canNOT be in schools as Christians (or Muslims/hindu's etc) have to dictate what MUST be in schools. But it's not about 'rights' per se..it's about democracy. No 'right' is infringed if, as a result of the democratic process.. we have chaplains in schools. No 'right' is infringed if children are offered a non compulsory opportunity to know more about The Faith.

In the light of the present plight of Christopher Hitchins... it might be a timely warning that 'my way' rather than Gods way can have regrettable consequences.

"Author, journalist and public intellectual Christopher Hitchens has announced he has cancer of the oesophagus and will undergo treatment.

"He is well-known for his prolific consumption of alcohol and cigarettes."

"God is not Great" (Hitchins)
"Galations 6:7" (God.)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6&version=NIV