Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Here in Australia the thought of ever drawing and discharging your service weapon in the course of your duty is probably one of the most momentous decisions any copper would need to make in his career.

In over 32 years service, I could count on just both hands the number of occasions I've needed to draw my service weapon. When a member draws his gun, he 'must' be prepared to use it. Not a bluff, nor a pretence, but to use it. Fortunately I've never actually fired a shot at another. Other than the lawful destruction of a large mixed breed dog, a task I shamefully completely buggered up, requiring two shots, due to the emotional conflict it had on my judgement at that time ?

The legal and internal investigation (ethical standards - justification) following a fatal shooting by police, is positively horrendous, both physically and emotionally on the Officer concerned, and it can take months.

Of course that doesn't include the exhaustive Coronial Enquiry either, which possesses enormous powers to tease out every minute detail, that may throw some light on that shooting. Lastly, confronting (usually at the Inquest) the deceased's NoK ? Irrespective of how 'righteous' to use an American phrase, the shooting may be, to face the NoK, while giving evidence, is positively harrowing, something police often find the most difficult and emotionally draining, of all.

To address your assertion; police in Oz, don't have the luxury to form deeply held prejudices or bias, when they perform duty. There are far too many observers, the media, the law, the administration, all of whom very carefully audit every important decision and subsequent action, that police make, to allow any individual Officer the luxury to harbour any overt bias or prejudice. Privately, we all have our likes and dislikes. Those private thoughts are more or less dispensed with, the second you attend 'muster' prior to commencing your shift.

Clearly there are far to many killings in the USA both amongst civilians and by cops (and too many police deaths as well).

I've not managed to get to a satisfactory point in digging through various stats to feel that I understand all of the issues involved and it appears that there has not been a consistent collection of stats in the USA in the past. Some impressions so far.

- Police shootings bear a significant correlation to the propensity of demographics to be involved in violent crime. Despite making up similar proportions of the US population the majority of those killed by police are male. African American young males are killed by police at a higher rate than other groups but the evidence I've seen suggests that they are involved in violent crime at far higher rates than other groups.
- Some material I've seen that in relation to the respective demographic groupings involvement in violent crime young white males are more likely to be shot by police officers in the US than young African American males. I think the ration was around 1.7 times as likely.
- The overwhelming majority of killings of African Americans is by other African Americans. Something that does not get through from the material I've seen from from the Black Lives Matter group although that may be a matter of what gets publicised by the media.
- African Americans are more likely to kill whites than whites are to kill African Americans.
- Both groupings are more likely to kill members of their own demographic than the other.
- Some cops are bad but in the overwhelming majority of cases it appears that those who die in police shootings contribute significantly to escalating the situation - either due to making bad choices from nerves, attitude or just plain stupidity.
TBC

R0bert

- In a country were a lot of people are allowed to "carry" every police interaction on the streets carries a higher risk to the police than it does here where the majority of those the police deal with won't be armed. That increased risk is likely to have police who are more risk adverse in a rapidly developing situation than they are here.
- Much has been made of the shooting of Tamir Rice, a child playing with a toy gun. He3 was 12 years old and from the Wikipedia page could pass as older. He was playing with a replica pistol which had an orange indicator that it was a replica removed from it. He reportedly pulled the replica gun out of his waist band when instructed to put his hands in the air. In hindsight a terrible mistake but a 12 year old drawing what appeared to be a pistol out of his pants when instructed to put his hands in the air increases the risks in that situation dramatically. A public park is not the place for a boy of that age to be pointing a replica pistol at anybody.
- There does not appear to be any significant indications of widespread racial prejudice in the police shootings of African Americans, if anything they may be shot less often than whites when demographic involvement in violent crime is factored in (and if you are not factoring that in then it's a massive gender issue).

R0bert

Dear o sung wu,

Given your experience I would like to hear your thoughts on this shooting which occurred last week in California. The video is from an officer's body cam.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/13/body-camera-footage-released-dylan-noble-police-shooting

Do you think yourself and Australian policemen you have worked with would have acted differently if so how?

I would hope our police would deal with it very differently but our police are not operating in an environment where large numbers of the population carry guns.

Dylan Noble appeared to be repeatedly ignoring very clear instructions about what he was required to do and in my view played a major and unnecessary role in aggravating a tense situation.

Initial instructions to put both hands on the windscreen were seemingly ignored judging by the repeated calls for him to perform that action. He left the vehicle without being instructed to do so. From what I saw of the incident he did not comply fully with any of the quite simple instructions he was given.

I don't want situations were police are pointing weapons at me, I don't want to be made to lie on the tarmac in a service station but mostly if I'm ever dealing with the police I don't want them thinking the situation is physically out of their control. They want to go home at the end of the day too.

R0bert

A fair summation by R0bert.

It would be a most unfortunate twist if it transpires that citizens who are licensed must be extremely careful where police may regard them as potential criminals. Logically, anyone who met the stringent conditions for a licence and continues to satisfy them to maintain that licence should be perceived by police as the very last persons who might attack them.

For the benefit of both sides, the licensed citizen and the police, two conditions seem necessary:

- first, well publicised protocols for declaring possession of the licensed firearm on the occasion of being stopped by police; and,

- secondly, that the licensed person must never be complacent and comply immediately and to the letter with police directions.

The latter can be a problem where a well-meaning, over-cooperative licence holder might do something ill-advised like trying to show police where the firearm is without being directed to do so.

Some police can be inexperienced, overzealous and naive.

No so long ago a young fellow in Brisbane Australia, was quite harshly dealt with by a police patrol, who also called out support. It was quite a dangerous situation for the young driver who was getting home late from work.

The object that caused the dire emergency when he had been stopped for a random breath test? The constable had spotted a 'club' type steering wheel lock on the floor and imagined it was a gun (?!). Angry police told the car driver it was his fault and he was stupid to have such a lock. He has little money and his car is old and likely to be stolen. Poor bloke, that was a complete farce. The patrol were idiots who should be finding other employment.