As a retired policeman I can categorically state; the paramount duty of ALL police, is the protection of life above everything else.

This statement has the same weight and equivalent importance in the United States of America, as it is here in Australia.

So what's going on in Dallas TX at this time ? Five police officers have been allegedly shot dead and many others wounded. Why did it happen ? Apparently according to media sources, there's a strong sense among the broader African American community that some white police are so driven by raciest hatred, they'll take any opportunity to shoot a black person who they believe is involved in the commission of a serious crime. Particularly if that individual is armed.

There's little doubt, there are a small number of white (raciest) Officers, in less populated jurisdictions, especially those found in the old Confederacy States, who apparently believe should they ever need to engage an armed black, and they end up shooting the person, rarely will that shooting ever be ordained by the authorities, as not being 'righteous' or deemed 'questionable'.

If there's ever a question raised as to the legitimacy or legality of such a shooting, they believe their administration, and if necessary, their Twp/City judiciary will manipulate the facts and circumstances of the event, to suit a judicial presumption, 'the Officer acted both lawfully and courageously when he discharged his firearm'.

I wonder therefore if we're about to witness an ugly explosion of renewed racial tension, in the South ? I don't know. What I do know, there are many, many fine and honourable law-enforcement Officers in the USA. It would indeed be catastrophic for such a small number of racists police, to cause such a serious dislocation of the existing harmony between the majority of blacks and white police Officers.

I do wonder whether many African American's have in reality, a legitimate complaint against their police ? Evidence suggests that many of these black gang members, are armed when they go about committing their crimes. What of them ?

From the stuff I've seen it appears that this is a bit like our black deaths in custody syndrome. There are more white deaths, & the deaths are pretty much equal in relationship to the numbers of each group involved. In fact it appears there are a higher percentage of Hispanics killed, compared to their criminal representation.

Being a cop on many areas of the USA is a dangerous occupation, & this makes them rather more to shoot first, to protect themselves.

There are always members of the community who can profit from conflict with authority, & an easily recognised group are often more easily roused to violence.

The normal law abiding negro Americans would be wise to have nothing to do with this. Conflict will gain them nothing, & will probably mean police will be less willing to come to their aid, fearing ambush in black areas.

Only the criminal & some areas of the bureaucracy will benefit from this, & every one else only suffer.

Hey o sung wu,

First 3 Points:
1. Support for BLM movement by George Soros (US$33 million) to deliberately cause civil unrest
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-08/how-george-soros-singlehandedly-created-european-refugee-crisis-and-why
2. US police trained with Israeli (Occupation) police tactics
http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-police-routinely-travel-to-israel-to-learn-methods-of-brutality-and-repression/5473282
3. Veterans medicated on SSRI drugs (Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors)
http://ssristories.org/

Also the disturbing state of US politics regarding Hillary Clinton; the fix is in.
The FBI are not going to presucute Hillary Clinton over the email scandal and she's guilty of a felony violation of Title 18 Section 793.

Theres a backstory to the Clintons which everyone should read:
http://prorev.com/connex.htm

And also the backstory about FBI Director James Comey.
He was working for as an executive for HSBC during the money laundering scandal with the Mexican drug cartels, and was probably given the job because he was able to be controlled.
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2016/07/06/comey-oversaw-drug-cartel-money-laundering-operations-as-a-top-executive-at-hsbc-bank/

Now you start to see the big picture unfold.
And with the Clintons good mate George Soros helping to cause civil unrest with BLM we might not even get to a US election.
The 'October Surprise' they've been telling us all about for years might actually come true.
They may initiate martial law to avoid Donald Trump taking the helm.
Hillary now HAS to get rid of Trump, or she's going down and word is she plans taking everyone with her if she goes.
Trump said he'll prosecute her if he wins, and she can still be charged.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/23/donald-trump-pledges-to-prosecute-hillary-clinton-as-president/

So before you even look at this latest Dallas thing you have to look at the big picture going on in the background.
I think blacks are sometimes getting an unfair deal but other times the actions of police (Michael Brown) are warranted.
One thing I thought of was if police were aware of the statistics of blacks murdering blacks, then they probably have reason to be overcautious and make mistakes, though sometimes they do act like judge, jury and executioner which is unacceptable.
Police over there take care of their own, it's all a gang mentality.
Really, all this stuff is just about what gang you're in.

I would say the police are in a state of extreme fear to be so quick to kill.
2 police officers had that black man down, when did it escalate to a point of shooting him.

Obama can not get any talk going on gun control. So that says they have a long way to go to get any form of gun control. Posably civil war will come first.

The Dallas Killings Were Inevitable
http://www.amren.com/features/2016/07/the-dallas-killings-were-inevitable/

Black Lives Matter is founded upon lies, that's for sure but the Dallas shooter was, judging by his own admissions and social media persona inspired by Black supremacist groups and held a deep seated hatred of White people.
The two ideals are separate, BLM is a vehicle for empty social signalling by mainly White Leftists, it echoes the similarly hollow, useless, White led civil rights movements of the 1950's-60's.
The New Black Panthers and the other Black supremacists are tolerated by BLM and that's a problem, it'll come back to bite them just as tolerance of violent elements has destroyed the Left protest movement in Australia.

Hi there HASBEEN...

There's no doubt about it, policing in the US, especially in the bigger cities, is a very hazardous occupation. After completing my second school with the Bureau in 1987, I was invited to do a 'drive along' with the Elizabeth NJ Police Department, for the eight hour night shift. Elizabeth is the Container Port, for the City of New York, and is situated as the crow flies, seven miles from the City of Manhattan.

In order to comply with the 'economy of language', all that can be said - In just a very short eight hour period, that particular shift was the most astonishing, scary, entertaining, even distressing that I've ever experienced HASBEEN. Indeed the cops in the City of Elizabeth NJ, really do earn their money ! Very few of them ever reach their pensionable twenty years of service retirement, rather they burn out, well before in reality. Crimes of violence involving African Americans and Hispanics is rife. Interestingly, the only question they asked me; '...is there any vacancies in you Agency down under...'truly amazing ? Furthermore, almost eighty percent of all Patrolmen I spoke with, have second jobs. Some Departments 'lease out' 'off-duty' Officers to sporting fixtures etc.

G'day there DOOG...

I reckon you're so right, many cops in the big US cities are, if not scared, most certainly nervous, with a sense of hyper vigilance whenever they're performing duty. With respect of Mr OBAMA initiating meaningful gun control, I can't see it happening while the NRA hold substantial sway, over both the Democrats and Republican parties. Moreover even if there were a system of mandated regulatory possession of a F/A, how would they find those millions of hidden weapons, many of which are handguns and sub-machine guns, that have been secreted away for years ? It is a mess, which is surprising for such a clever country.

Dear o sung wu,

Good topic.

The National Rifle Association is very quick to back the rights of citizens to carry weapons. There is an outcry if those rights are deemed to have been transgressed. There is little doubt if Philando Castile had been white they would have been front and center, but there is nothing on their website.

What they do talk about is the need for an armed citizenry to protect communities against tyranny from government.

“What does it say about a political culture in which the law has become a weapon wielded against ordinary citizens by those in power? How can good, decent Americans be expected to have faith in law and order if the law is selectively enforced? If the law is changed at the whims of the powerful? If the law is used for the advantage of the political elites and at the disadvantage of the rest of us? How can citizens respect laws in a nation in which those laws are so unequally and arbitrarily applied?”

“Take the freedom that comes through the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution—to live without fear and tyranny as responsible, good people who exercise our individual right to keep and bear arms to defend our families, our communities and our nation.”

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140829/reclaiming-america

Surely the police forces of America are arms of government. Should the latest deaths of two more of the black community be regarded as 'tyrannical behavior by government', (which is an NRA catchcry), if so it begs the question how do the Dallas shootings fit such a narrative?

SteelRedux, "if so it begs the question how do the Dallas shootings fit such a narrative?"

All of those words to end in the logical fallacy of begging the question.

The answer is NO, there is no such conspiracy. Get a life.

There are deep social problems that should be the subject of independent, national research for one or more of those prestigious universities though. However Obama and Clinton are content to play political games and the other side is doing the same I guess. It ia all in the 'too hard' basket.

How can good, decent Americans be expected to have faith in law and order if the law is 'selectively enforced'. So opined STEELEREDUX ? Unfortunately I believe he's right, especially within the smaller Departments where some Chief's of Police have prejudicial baggage themselves.

I met one such Chief who managed to shock me to my bootstraps when he inquired of me as to whether we had much trouble with our 'blacks' in Australia, and how he instructed his 130 odd 'sworn' staff to deal with them, together with his multitude of reason(s) why he 'hated' them so !

A little known fact concerning the National Rifle Association of America. The FBI provide specialist training for small Departments who because of their size, don't have either the resources or specialist trainers to mount certain specialised in-service courses or schools as they call them there. Many of these 'schools' are funded by none other than the mighty NRA ! They have a large, dedicated arm for law-enforcement training. In fact when I was there, the NRA training Director was, Lt Col.James DAUGHERTY. A well credentialed trainer, with years of law-enforcement experience, in a certain State Patrol.

The NRA are not alone in this funding venture, so is Smith and Wesson, in fact S&W have an entire dedicated Training Academy, situated in Springfield MA. They're committed to training sworn Officers in all manner of regular, and specialised F/A use and tactics, and some allied strategic activities. As does H & K, Sturm Ruger, and Remington Arms who offer an armourers school, for sworn police armourers.

Firearms, accessibility, NRA, in fact corporate America all play an integral part in this murky business ? No doubt racism is entrenched, the blame game abounds. That aside, I'm totally confident there are many really competent, honourable police officers performing duty in America today. Police of all colours, and of all ethnicities.

Regrettably though, racism will occasionally emerge and manage to raise it's ugly head above the parapet. Whenever it does, let us hope the frequency and repercussions of such, diminishes significantly, as time goes on ?

In any organisation there will always be the rare cowboy who lets the side down and is a management problem. One swallow doth not a summer make. As well, maybe there is some prejudging going on. Better to wait for advice from the Court and based on critical examination of facts.

However if there is one certainty it is that there is no simple explanation, "It is guns", It is white cops", It is all a plot" and so on.

The social problems in the US are complex. Many are trying hard and are achieving improvements. Reducing complex problems to simple, stupid statements such as 'police discriminate against blacks', devalues and can overturn the hard work and positive results of committed professionals and citizens.

More research is needed and cooperation, not endless point-scoring among politicians - politicians who should know better, including President Obama. But alas, there is always political gamesmanship, especially while an election is underway.

Dear o sung wu,

Thank you for your perspective of the attitudes among smaller police forces in the US.

I suspect and hope things have improved to a degree from when you were there, but obviously huge problems still exist.

That black communities feel under siege at the moment is evident in the protests that are widespread across the nation. On another forum I have asked for an American perspective on whom they consider as the body from which the threat of tyranny requires that the citizenry to be armed. The answer is the Federal government. The Waco siege by DEA agents is often referred to as an example.

The NRA words, given a different source, would no doubt have resonance in black communities. I get a sense the reaction to police shootings will escalate as more within these communities identify police over-reach as tyrannical and deserving of an armed response.

You all do realise that BLM were chanting "What do we want? Dead Cops - When do we want it? Now" just prior to the shooting attack right?

http://www.infowars.com/video-the-truth-about-the-dallas-sniper-attack/

SteeleRedux,
Several towns in Georgia made it a requirement for citizens to own a firearm, Kennesaw in 1982 and Nelson in 2013.
US citizens do consider the Federal Government the greatest threat of tyranny, and I don't blame them.
Look at the IRS scandal where Obama used the IRS to attack political groups he considered unfavorable.
This is why they fight so hard for the Second Amendment which is considered the ultimate check and balance between the government and the people.
It all goes back to when they fought the British for independence.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The constitution isn't there to tell government what it can do.
It's there to tell it what it can't do.

Waco was another cover up.
One of the BATF agents shot David Koresh in the family jewels as he opened the door for the raid and it all went south from there.
I think another officer shot himself while trying to enter during the raid as well, maybe on a ladder or something.
Branch Davidians bought, sold and fixed guns they bought from gun shows and most of their guns weren't even their on the day of the raid.
BATF was under pressure from above to get results at the time.

With all this stuff going on in America it would drive the average person to want to be armed for their own safety.

Hi there ARMCHAIR CRITIC...

You've certainly embraced this topic with some far reaching comments as to the why's and wherefores of events that have perhaps precipitated these shootings. Much of your hard work and research leaves me totally ignorant, as it were.

Of course AC I've heard much that has been attributed to the actions that've been orchestrated by Mr Geo.SOROS and ors. And I believe there's much still to come from further enquiries into Mrs Hilary CLINTON'S conduct as Secretary of State, pursuant to MR OBAMA'S directions ?

Otherwise AC I don't have sufficient knowledge to make any worthwhile comments on other matters you've raised, much of it allegedly of a conspiratorial nature ?

However you did raise the issue of US police travelling to Israel for the purpose of receiving specialised training in 'Krav Maga' (in Hebrew 'contact fight') the Israeli form of 'hand to hand' combat as practiced by the IDF & INP. Krav Maga's been practiced in Australia now for some time, including a trial with NSW Police. Though quite effective, it doesn't quite fit the needs of police who are required to deal with resistive conduct in an arrest situation.

Actually, some of the of the data you've supplied, is in reality, reversed. There have been a number of former US; police, Marshal Service, Secret Service, and former FBI operatives, sent to Israel for the purpose of instructing the Israeli National Police, in what's called 'Active Countermeasures'. I've no doubt as with all agencies, there's a good free flow of information and training between each of them ? AC I sincerely hope this explanation in some way, answers some of your queries. Thanks A C.

Hi there JAY of MELBOURNE...

As always, you present an altogether different precis of another possible motive, behind these senseless shootings. And I for one, couldn't possibly repudiate it. It's entirely possible there are other forces circulating that are driving this 'hate' altogether, and as usual it's always the naive pawns who're the ones that lose, when it's all said and done ? Thanks J of M

Hi o sung wu,
Maybe I went a bit far or off-topic with the Clinton / Soros backstory thing but it is all kind of interesting given they are pushing gun laws and the media is trying to keep the story off Hillary atm.
Attorney General Loretta Lynch came into the picture with the HSBC scandal as well so they're all in cohoots together.
Hillary's not out of the woods just yet either btw, Trey Gowdy has just questioned whether or not she committed perjury last October.

Anyway...
My housemates have done some Krav Maga in years past though not any more.
I've been made to watch Bas Rutten videos more than a few times.
Some of those old Pride fights are pretty brutal.
http://youtu.be/7L_AuvaWIh4

I think there's a military version of Krav Maga which also contains kill moves which aren't allowed to be trained to members of the public, but I'm not sure whether or not US police are trained in these methods.
I didn't know the NSW Police had been given training, though I'm not opposed to them having the training to protect themselves whilst on the job.
I had the impression the Israeli training was more counter-terrorism stuff.

I don't know much about dealing with resistive conduct in an arrest situation.
I surely don't envy the job you've had to do nor the kinds of people you've surely often had to deal with.
I do know however, (and forgive me for saying it) that there's a technique trained in security courses where the police or security officer attempting to detain yells out very loudly "Stop resisting" even if the person isn't resisting.
And this is so any bystanders who hear the commotion automatically think the person is resisting.

Just for the record, I may be a bit of a conspiracy theorist, but this does not mean I'd want to see either Police or citizens treated unfairly.

Dear Armchair critic,

You use the supposed IRS 'attacks' to illustrate a form of governmental tyranny from which the populace is 'justified' in arming themselves to combat it.

Meanwhile the roll call of prodominately black men and boys being shot by police in actions that seem bereft of real legitimacy doesn't seem to warrant in your mind armed resistance by that community.

Which instance is a greater threat to life? I hope you can see the discrepancy in your stance.

Dear o sung wu,

I'm not sure you are a fan of The Wire but I thought this speech by Colvin hit the mark.
http://youtu.be/BA5za4VsskM?t=1m5s

Armchair Critic, "the Clinton / Soros backstory thing but it is all kind of interesting given they are pushing gun laws and the media is trying to keep the story off Hillary atm"

You are right to say that 'gun control' is a diversion to keep scrutiny away Hilary Clinton, particularly her mismanagement of email and disregard for security.It isn't the licensed citizen who is the problem.

Most US states have useful gun laws in place already. Invariably gun violence is simply a subset of the violence wrought by black on black (or as a distant second, by Hispanics), involving gangs and drugs.

What is needed is evidence based laws that attempt to treat identified risks with robust, effective, management controls. That is firearms REGULATION.

Not some catch-cry of 'gun control' that can and does play to certain interests, in particular some wealthy individuals who are not especially known to even pay US taxes but put their money into tax havens abroad. This is Soros, for instance, the billionaire international currency dealer behind 'gun control' activists, who makes mega millions out of any civil unrest and is presently raking the dollars in from Brexit,

<Panama Papers reveal George Soros’ deep money ties to secretive weapons firm

BILLIONAIRE George Soros, who has spent millions of dollars financing Democrats and left-wing causes, used a controversial Panamanian law firm to establish a web of offshore investment partnerships that operate around the world and out of the scrutiny of US regulators, according to leaked documents.
..
Soros’ offshore companies may not pay US taxes (his spokesman, Michael Vachon, declined to answer that question), but the billionaire donates lots of money to Democrats who write and enforce the tax laws. In the 2004 presidential election, he contributed $US24 million ($33 million) to George Bush’s opponents. He is the largest donor to Hillary Clinton’s campaign for the presidency>
http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/tax/panama-papers-reveal-george-soros-deep-money-ties-to-secretive-weapons-firm/news-story/4f34cba3104155cdce5f93ec7751d729

It is interesting how the Open Society arm of the Soros octopus was linked with the Panama Papers leaks but Soros himself wasn't mentioned. Also in the article linked to above.

The Soros outfit is often alleged top be interfering in the domestic politics of the US and other western democracies. He is a capitalist and a globalist. But above all, he makes $billions out of currency dealing.

Trust the Soros outfit and his 'Open Society' (a sly misnomer like 'gun control')? No way! Australians rightly object to outsiders interfering in domestic politics and his sort of capitalist globalism stinks, with extremely wealthy overseas corporations and individuals covertly influencing/manipulating events (eg through stage managed protests) and government.

Hi again STEELEREDUX...

No I'm not a regular viewer of American police series, though I have seen this particular show on occasions, preferring instead to view many of the British versions.

In my over thirty two years in the job the one thing I've learned - you simply cannot do the job satisfactorily and effectively, without first obtaining the cooperation of the general public. Without that, you're already behind the game. Furthermore there's a huge line of demarcation between; the civilian police service and the military - never the twain should meet. In reality STEELEREDUX, the police are merely an extended arm of the general public, that's despite what some less mature coppers might believe ?

Hi there once more ARMCHAIR CRITIC...

Personally I don't believe Krav Maga is any more, or any less effective, in dealing with highly resistive conduct during an arrest scenario. I spent time with Mr Bruce SIDDLE Chief DTI of the Greater St Louis MO., Police Department, who developed the highly effective PPCT method of subject control. I've personally, operationally applied this technology (SIDDLE's PPCT), when I was a trainer with the original TRG, and it worked splendidly, even with extremely violent females, with very few physical injuries being occasioned to subjects. The predominant principal behind PPCT is essentially that of 'pain compliance' with an absence of physical injury.

Many of the States and AFP jumped on board, until a couple of young 'socially enlightened' Doctors in Victoria I think, proclaimed to all and sundry that PPCT was potentially dangerous and could prove fatal if used too zealously ? This is DESPITE the extensive medical research, conducted at considerable expense, by the State of Missouri, and the Greater St Louis Police Department. It is my humble opinion, PPCT is far more preferable than whacking someone over the head with a KB26K long baton ? However, what would I know, I was only trained as an Instructor of PPCT ?

O Sung Wu,
Would the situation in the US be better if they did away with
those police forces of every little town & city and collected into
their state police forces ?

To all; A bit of background to the economy.
For many years there has been no increase in average wages in the US.
The standard of living has been falling for a long time.
It can been seen in the falling energy consumption per head in the US.

This is having widespread effects at all levels in the US and is no
doubt affecting race relations because the whites are getting the blame.

Morning to you ONTHEBEACH...

As usual you're miles above my simple head with all the American political machinations, involving that shadowy figure Geo. SOROS who seems able to manipulate the economies of many US States even small Nations !

There's no doubt whatsoever, the main Firearm manufacturers in the United States, are closely hand in glove, with the NRA. That in itself has little to do with white cops shooting black crooks, only perhaps signifying the ready availability of guns in America, in the first instance?

I don't know the answer, but most of these shootings do occur in City areas that have high concentrations of, socio-economically deprived African Americans. Given that many Departments employ a fair proportion of black police, would it not be better strategically, to deploy more black police to those public housing projects that are predominately black ? Or would the City Fathers consider that a raciest tactic ? Who cares if it might save lives ?

So they issue hard 'body armour inserts', but that will not stop a groin or head shot, so you can forget about 'Kevlar' under your singlet, on a hot humid day or night, designed only to halt pistol ordnance ? What an intractable mess law enforcement's in, in the United States.

Hey Steele Redux,
You got me thinking, and maybe I have kind of contradicted myself.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"
Thomas Jefferson.

I think the white demographic are probably concerned with overreach of federal government powers and states rights in a greater sense whereas the black demographic are more concerned with racism and police brutality at the local level.

So I think the white demographic would me more likely to peacefully protest on the whitehouse lawn, in making their stand whereas blacks are more likely to take it to local police.
I think the blacks oppression meter would be a lot higher, enraged and prone to act more irrationally.

The whites position against the federal government is that they would try to get police and military on their side whereas the blacks position is gunning for the cops.

I still don't think I answered your argument very well sorry, but you definitely got me thinking. Kudos.
I don't think it will help the blacks cause by shooting police.
Maybe Soros wants to start a race war, laying the groundwork to postpone the election.

If for example Hillary Clinton was elected President, then I would support US citizens right to overthrow a tyrannical government based on the fact the Hillary has committed crimes that meant she is not legally allowed to run for President (for espionage) and the US people don't have to obey an illegitimate government.
How they would go about removing her I'm not sure.
I don't want their to be violence on the streets though, I do want everyone to go home safely.
I wish America could get its act together and act like the moral nation it should be, but that won't happen.

I'd support the Blacks cause if the message was "All Lives Matter" but they've made it hateful and divisive.

Onthebeach,
Did you know Soros was actually behind the ICJC who released the Panama Papers?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-panama-papers-and-regime-change-who-is-behind-the-international-consortium-of-investigative-journalists-icij/5519178

o sung wu,

It has been my experience over the years that while the left excel at stirring the pot and the tabloid media (and Hollywood) add to fog, law enforcement in the US is tightly controlled, highly transparent and subject to all manner of review and appeal mechanisms.

I don't care to reckon up the number of sensationalist exposés, the gasp, shock, horror, of tabloid media and scummy politicians that have later been proved to be muck-raking to create hysteria for political purposes and without any basis in fact. There is a fortune and power in speculative gossip. It is a moneymaking business. It is also the preserve of ratbag conspiracy artists.

The leftists routinely slag and slam the police as agents of government. But police serve the community of which they and their loved ones are part.

The police in the US are trying to handle social problems that are beyond their areas of expertise and exasperating. Not so frustrating for officers to do the wrong thing. Their sense of community service and their training usually kicks in when things go pear-shaped.

However, where there is ever any slightest evidence of wrongdoing by police it is followed to the bitter end by investigators who do NOT as the leftists claim allow excuses or cover things up. The exact reverse if true - they are zealous, even overzealous and rigorous. However the left don't bother with evidence, dealing in acquisition, rumor-mongering and hysteria.

The US is a democracy. While democracy has its limitations, there is NO better system of government. Also, Americans jealously guard and fight for their freedom of speech and rightly oppose incursions by the State into private lives.

It really is high time that the leftists owned up to the very obvious negative consequences of their social engineering. The other side too, for their 'Forget it and it will all go away'. Bothe sides want it easy and refuse to grasp the thorny nettle of underlying social problems.

"...But police serve the community of which they and their loved ones are part."

They do...and what we're seeing is a break down of sorts.

Just how many stories are we to read of black people being summarily executed for broken tail lights, etc. There was a story a while back about a black man who had been shoved handcuffed and unsecured into the back of a police van - which was then driven wildly around the streets until he was battered to death...broken neck. I believe.

When the population go "Erm..."How come this is happening?" we see police routinely clad in full militarised battle dress - someone from the US commented he was never decked out so much even in battle as the police in the pictures in this article:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/remarkable-photo-of-woman-facing-riot-police-that-may-define-black-lives-matter-20160711-gq2ulr.html

The US has a problem.

Found that quote on twitter regarding the militarisation of police in the US.

From Brandon Friedman - Former Dep.Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs:

"I never wore so much armor in combat. This is their own community."

Their own community....

Another indication of the seriousness of the situation:

"Three countries urge caution traveling to U.S. amid protests, violence"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-travel-idUSKCN0ZQ0RM?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5782bf8504d30102204bd23b&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

"Three countries have warned their citizens to stay on guard when visiting U.S. cities rocked by sometimes violent protests that erupted after a string of police shootings of black Americans.

The United States regularly issues travel warnings urging Americans to either avoid or exercise caution in countries marred by violence or political instability.

Now America is the focus of concern by foreign governments in the Middle East and Caribbean as protesters marched in U.S. cities throughout the weekend after police killed black men in Louisiana and Minnesota."

"The U.S. embassy of Bahrain, a tiny Middle Eastern island nation, on Saturday urged citizens via twitter to "be cautious of protests or crowded areas occurring around the U.S."

Bahamas, a Caribbean nation where most people identify as being of African heritage, on Friday warned its people to be careful when visiting U.S. cities rocked by "shootings of young black males by police officers."

"In particular young males are asked to exercise extreme caution in affected cities in their interactions with the police. Do not be confrontational and cooperate," Bahamas foreign ministry said in a travel advisory.

The United Arab Emirates urged its students and other citizens in the United States to also be careful, using similar language the U.S. State Department employs when warning Americans about countries that have fallen victim to attacks by extremists.

"Please be aware of immediate surroundings and avoid crowded places when possible," the UAE embassy said in a statement that urged people to stay away from any U.S. demonstrations. "Exercise particular caution during large festivals or events, be alert and stay safe."

"In July alone, the United States has issued travel warnings for Bangladesh, Venezuela, Iraq and Mali."

Poirot,

You'll go deaf in that leftist echo chamber.

I will wait for the Court report.

Suffice it to say that there are alternative reports. See here,

"Newly released video DESTROYS liberal narrative on Alton Sterling shooting
http://www.allenbwest.com/matt-palumbo/newly-released-video-destroys-liberal-narrative-on-alton-sterling-shooting

Nothing like the leftists for stirring the proverbial though. Up the revolution, eh what?

otb,

"Nothing like the leftists for stirring the proverbial though. Up the revolution, eh what?"

What a strange little rightist you are.

The US is brimming with weaponry in civilian hands....black people are being popped off at whim....police are decked out in combat gear above and beyond that worn on the battle field.

And you're blaming lefties.

For many years the US standard of living of those on middle and lower
incomes has been falling. It can be seen in the energy demand per head
of the US population. There seems to be no chance that this decline can
be reversed. I note that peak coal appears to have arrived both in the
world and additionally in China.

Energy consumption per head appears to have a very tight correlation
with standard of living. Falling standard of living may be having a
harder impact on black Americans. If I see anything along those lines
I will put it up here.

G'day there BAZZ...

A very adroit observation there BAZZ ! The level of training, both for the Chief (initially), an elected official, and his deputies vary so much both in standards and duration, many ordinary patrolman cannot complete a basic Brief of Evidence, relying instead on the DA, another elected office, or ADA to plug up any irregularities.

These errors should never get beyond the criminal brief adjudicators, who should normally carefully check the efficacy of the Brief, prior to submission for prosecution. Too many matters are lost, because a good defence lawyer can find sufficient holes in the evidence, to at least form a significant doubt, in the minds of the jurors ? In a capital case all you want is just one doubt, is all.

Another feature of these smaller Departments, often their Officers spend far too much time on F/A training, baton and handcuff training, pursuit work, and too little on 'bread 'n butter' police work. Preferring instead the exciting cowboy cops stuff, rather than the more theory based, interrogation methods, intelligence gathering, basic investigation techniques, arson investigation and evidence preparation - all vitally important when you're in a smaller Department ? A basic appreciation of the above is all that's necessary initially, but without any fundamental crime scene preservation...well you might as well just go home and watch TV for all the use you are, to the taxpayer, your employer !

A really good point, many should be included into the much larger, better trained and equipped Departments. The trouble is, there's something in their Constitution giving each City and Twp self determination and the right to appoint their own small, self- contained government of sorts ? The precise details of what escape me, I'm sorry.

"Meanwhile the roll call of prodominately black men and boys being shot by police in actions that seem bereft of real legitimacy doesn't seem to warrant in your mind armed resistance by that community". STEELEREDUX...

When people post such dishonest garbage, they can't be taken seriously, can they Poirot.

"When people post such dishonest garbage, they can't be taken seriously, can they Poirot."

I dunno, Hasbeen.

You're the expert around here at posting dishonest garbage - why don't you tell us?

Dear Hasbeen,

Yet again I am completely taken aback by the depth of your obviously well researched and original reply. It takes my breath away just how well you manage to expand on tease out these issues with insight and brevity that puts the rest of us to shame. You really are the star contributor here and I would take issue with anyone who postulated otherwise.

Dear Armchair Critic,

You wrote;

“So I think the white demographic would me more likely to peacefully protest on the Whitehouse lawn, in making their stand whereas blacks are more likely to take it to local police. I think the blacks oppression meter would be a lot higher, enraged and prone to act more irrationally. The whites position against the federal government is that they would try to get police and military on their side whereas the blacks position is gunning for the cops. I still don't think I answered your argument very well sorry, but you definitely got me thinking. Kudos. I don't think it will help the blacks cause by shooting police.”

Permit me to leave aside the Soros stuff as it would be a distraction in examining the question before us.

You are a step ahead of some here who would argue that the Black community doesn't have a cause so well done on that front.

What I am attempting to do is examine the issue through the lens of someone who is firmly convinced one of the prime reasons for civilians bearing arms is to protect against tyrannical behavior by authorities. I think we both accept that there would be people living in black communities who would view the spate of police shootings as a form of tyrannical behaviour from those representing the authority of the state.

Cont...

Cont...

The question is whether an armed response is legitimate. I don't think there would be any reason to pose this question in Australia but in a country with a gun culture and a strong commitment to their constitution it certainly is.

You don't need to be armed to go and peacefully protest on the White House lawn. But if you are faced with the kind of overt racism that o sung wu described permeating the highly armed and 'willing to use lethal force' groups with the power of life and death within your community then perhaps it is understandable why they would regard ian armed response as having a degree of legitimate.

I too don't think shooting police will help the cause but faced with an increasing, not decreasing, spate of police killings of civilians what would you have them do differently?

There's no doubt African Americans are very much the minor players in most enterprises. Whether it's the work place, schooling, and from what I've been told University (College) the African American has to work that much harder than most of his white contemporaries, to achieve many of those prized positions, good jobs, even superior accommodation while undertaking their training.

I visited the Topsfield State Police Academy in Massachusetts, which is ideally set in some delightful forest environs. You'll rarely see African American recruits proudly marching about and readying themselves to undertake the preparatory training for State Police. All of whom are closely observed by that legendary warrior of the City of Boston Police, Arthur LAMB.

In fact the more promising, more exceptional black recruits, are all encouraged to re-direct their application to the City of Boston Police Department, rather then persevere as it were, with the MA State Police. Who are considered among the most elite and oldest of all the American State Police Departments. Often referred to as the MA Governor's pride and joy.

Who was it that said with the emancipation of the American Negro came an abundance of civil rights ? Not so in law-enforcement it would appear. Though when looking over West Point, at Highland Falls, I did see the exception, with a number of African American cadets proudly doing their 'square bashing' as would any other Cadet Under Officer would do, notwithstanding their colour.

Poirot, "The US is brimming with weaponry in civilian hands....black people are being popped off at whim....police are decked out in combat gear above and beyond that worn on the battle field"

You are having the vapors. Take a long glass of cold water and a good rest.

@SteeleRedux, Monday, 11 July 2016 8:50:32 PM

That is crazy, irresponsible stuff. You are proposing armed insurrection. By whom, for what, in one of the greatest democracies in the world and where freedom of speech and the vote are facts of everyday life and not just a hopeful notion

Dear o sung wu,

Hopefully things are changing for the better.

Dear Poirot,

The militarisation of the police forces over the last decades has been striking. It has become so pervasive that both Democrat and Republican politicians are calling for demilitarisation.

Last year Obama stepped in and restricted the range of military equipment that could be sold to police departments. While facing cutbacks in all police budgets the only area that had been spared was funding for procuring military weaponry. It was financed by generous grants from Federal agencies.

“In this, as with so much else in American governance, it starts with federal cash. Every year Congress passes the National Defence Authorisation Act, which sets out the Defence Department's budget and expenditures. The version passed in 1990, in the wake of a sharp rise in drug-related violence, allowed the Defence Department to transfer military gear and weapons to local police departments if they were deemed "suitable for use in counter-drug activities". Between 2002 and 2011 the Department of Homeland Security, established after the attacks of September 11th 2001, disbursed more than $35 billion in grants to state and local police forces. In addition the "1033 programme" allows the Defence Department to distribute surplus equipment to local police departments for use in counter-terrorism and counter-drug activities.”
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-22

Why on earth people felt that large caliber machine guns, grenade launchers, tanks and camouflage gear have a place in local policing beats me but that is what has happened.

"You are having the vapors. Take a long glass of cold water and a good rest."

Lol!...poor old otb decides to tell the lady she's having "the vapors".

You forget, that Poirot is more than able to hold her own on this forum despite blokey comments like that from a fella whose recourse to the females on this forum is usually confined to sexist put-downs.

Now, otb...why haven't you got around to blaming the Trotskyites, the progressives and the feminists for the outrageous situation in US?

Step it up, mate!

Bazz,
Obama's 'war on coal' has been increasing energy prices.
This may be leading to less consumption as Americans are broke.
As I think you mentioned earlier their wages havent risen in 18years.

Poirot,
The black man who's neck was broken was Freddie Gray after allegations of 'Rough Ride' in the police van.
I also agree with you at some level on the topic of the militarisation of police.

o sung wu,
Sherrifs are elected and are accountable directly to the constitution of their state.

SteeleRedux,
I wouldn't go as far as saying that blacks don't have cause to be angry when confronted with videos of their race treated unfairly, murdered by police if you will; and I can see they don't really have anyone else to direct their anger at, if nothing changes.
I won't support police who do the wrong thing, but I also won't support killing innocent police for some percieved wrongdoing by another officer.
Also if you start attacking police you will destroy the very pillar of society that keeps things from descending into absolute choas and civil war, which is likely what Soros' intends.
Alex Jones made some really good points today about this; if you can put up with a few minutes of his rant it's worth listening to.
http://youtu.be/XGOJHW8yzPc?t=16m00s
Also former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani has some good statistics in a clip around the 24minute mark, if you can cope with Alex's style for that long.

What would I do diffently?
Not exactly sure, honestly.
America's problems are all intertwined into a huge mess.

Civil war in America is inevitable its just a matter of time.
Ive always thought so.

SteeleRedux
A tank might have saved the lives of those 6 policemen
They could have spun that tank gun around and took that sniper out easily

It will no doubt come to that eventually. Im not saying its right or
wrong, just that, thats the direction these things usually take when societies
start to disintergrate into civil war and violence.

History shows that multi tribal,ethnic, socities eventually decend into
civil wars even if it takes a couple of hundred years or more.

A couple of those police shootings of black men certainly need investigating,
That last one looked suspicious. Although he was a huge, black man, and he had a gun in his pocket, if he had managed to get his hand to his pocket he could certainly have shot straight through the material at the officer, we couldnt see where his hands were in that video.
It is blacks
who constantly kill other black men in drive by shootings and gang related
shootings. or just some innocent black kid on the street for fun.
No wonder the police are inclined to be over defensive when they have to
arrest them for something.

The Americans have faught two civil wars already, on their
home soil, thats why they dont like to be disarmed.
Also the farm lobby at one point in The US was very strong
and heavily armed.

It really doesn't matter what calibre or how many firearms and ammunition a law-abiding person has.

But in the hands of an offender just one rubbish gun and a bullet is too many. The same would be true of a knife, blunt instrument, fists or fuel (arson) for examples.

.5 calibre has been around for decades and in muskets for instance, where the bore can be larger still.

'Gun control' doesn't lay a glove on offenders and their illegally acquired, held and used guns. It isn't intended to 'control' or deter offenders, because 'gun control' is the euphemism for disarming the ordinary law-abiding citizens of democratic countries. Bans and compulsory confiscations form ordinary licensed owners. Regulation affecting persons is what is needed - evidence based laws.

Should be, "Bans and compulsory confiscations of lawfully acquired assets from ordinary licensed owners".

Thanks SteeleRedux and Poirot for your extremely constrictive input to this thread. It is good to read posting from a couple of intelligent forumites who actually know what they are talking about.

And thanks to o sung wu for sharing your first hand experiences with American policing, something I and others have no real knowledge of, other than from American TV cop shows LOL. The only firsthand experience I have had with American cops was in Honolulu Hawaii, late one night about 2am, the main boulevard blocked off with 4 or 5 squad cars, traffic stopped, policy on the sidewalk inside a shop. What had happened, seems someone had stole a pair of shoes from the shop (trades all night). The cops were great, my partner got some nice pics of her and the police, seems it was a quite night so they all responded to the call, as they do. Friendly guys, I couldn't believe it when "T" asked if she could get some photos with the officers and they said yes "that fine mom". It was more of a party atmosphere than a crime scene. If the thief had still been around there would have been more pics taken I'm sure. It was such a surreal experience, I couldn't imagine it happening in Sydney or Melbourne.

Peter Hartcher analyses America's predicament:

"In the aftermath, with anger and dismay across American society, a former police chief, Charles Ramsey, a black man, told the media that the country was sitting on an explosive:

"You can call it a powder keg. You can say that we're handling nitroglycerin. But obviously when you just look at what's going on, we're at a very critical point in the history of this country."

The ingredients of America's nitro have been becoming more potent and more volatile since Martin Luther King identified them in 1968.
It's well known that King's nonviolent protest movement led to greater legal equality for America's blacks. It's less known that he regarded this as just a beginning.

It was in 1968, the last year of his life, that the Nobel laureate identified the great struggle ahead. The US was suffering systematic "racism, poverty, militarism and materialism".

It's the first three of these that present America with its particular brand of danger today. The fourth, materialism, is present too, of course, yet it is a universal feature in the developed nations of the world, yet most of them have nothing of the American explosiveness. It's the first three that seem to combine with unique potency."

"Barack Obama two years ago described inequality as "the defining issue of our time".

After the Dallas shootings, Obama pointed squarely to entrenched racism as a contributing factor. The shootings, he said, were "symptomatic of a broader set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system".

The President persisted, too, with his effort to draw attention to America's peculiar psychosis, its crazed embrace of ever-more deadly weapons. Guns were not the only cause, he said, but they were one cause. In the face of Congressional obstruction, Obama has proved largely impotent on all three issues.

Just as King feared – inequality, racism and militarisation, or at least, a country bristling with weapons of war – are the elements of the nitroglycerine of a potential American explosion"

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-cant-afford-to-be-smug-about-americas-great-unsolved-problems-20160711-gq35e7.html#ixzz4E8kC0ko

Before we all get carried away with "it couldn't happen here" let us remember that the training of the NSW Police has shifted and we have an armoured car, more emphasis on long range shooting and if the Lyndt Cafe is any indication a willingness to use para-military gear with disastrous results.

Ref. the American police driving wildly and fatally injuring a prisoner in the back of their van, contrast this with the Australian incident of police driving through the hot outback and having a prisoner die of neglect because he wasn't cared for properly.

Hey Is Mise,
They've got 'Bearcats' in QLD too.
http://mypolice.qld.gov.au/farnorth/2012/07/25/armoured-rescue-vehicle-launched-in-cairns/

Poirot

Its also a numbers game.

The racism isnt just on one side.

When the tribes, white,African and Mexican get the numbers to
go head to head over the control of the country they will.

Just as the Shia and Sunni tribe started killing each other over control of
Iraq. Something the Americans hadnt planned for because for a start
they think If they had killed Hitler there would have been no world war2

Its about time people understood, especially leaders in the West, that tribes, will go to
war even without a dictator like Suddam or Hitler or Trump for that matter if he did get elected.

The US made the same mistake

iIn reality this was once again a civil war, between the Allawarte tribe or whatever its
called around Assad and the so called moderate Sunni Arab tribe over control of Syrian
land and resources.

When will people in the West understand this, instead of, blaming just some leader
and not seeing the bitter fight over countries between tribes exactly as it
was in Germany. Maybe then they could show some judgement in what
would happen after they interfere in these countries.

Thank God Putin understood the tribal loyalties and what was really happenng in Syria.
The Western leaders never had a clue.
It was Putin who turned the Syrian war around, the West didnt have any idea what it was really all about or who was fighting who. Just their usual one evil leader nonsense
about Assad.

Once again we had two tribes there prepared to kill each other over Syrian control
and resources. The Tribe around Assad and the Sunni moderates,complicated by the addition of the Sunni Isis lot.

Wouldnt you think the US leaders would have been looking for the tribal support around Assad after the huge Saddam blunder.
They appear to have learnt nothing.

Hey SteeleRedux,
Michael Rivero's show today gives more angles on the situation.
http://youtu.be/CrMCaPQQwVE
Police brutality against both black and whites and the issue of civil forfeiture.
He also talks about FBI tactics in the 1960's with COINTELPRO and the Black Panther Party.
It's a good show and gives a fairly balanced view of things from the side of a reasonable thinking American that supports the constitution.

onthebeach and CHERFUL,
You should also have a listen too.

For Onthebeach, I'd like you to understand that not all people in the 'conspiracy theorist' category are irrational thinking people.
Some are quite intelligent and informed.

And CHERFUL,
Please don't take this the wrong way (because you seem to mean well) but your naive about the cause of all these wars you consider to be tribal.
It's not just the natural friction between different groups, races or religions that are the cause of these wars as much as other parties who seek to gain from a situation where one group of people is fighting with another group of people.
These things don't just happen by accident, they happen by design.
http://youtu.be/9RC1Mepk_Sw

Dear Armchair Critic,

Sorry mate but I don't have over 2 hours free to listen to a podcast. If you could give me a precises then I'm happy to respond.

Here is something shorter for you. It chronicles a Denver traffic stop in 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P9-BjYxTu8

Pretty confronting.

CHEREFUL I also think tribalism is a major factor and I presume that religion
within a tribe is uniform. There does not seem to be any solution
available so perhaps it is time to write them off and try and isolate
ourselves from their disfunctional culture.

Is Mise,
The death of Mr Ward in outback W.A occurred in a prison transport van driven by G4S security guards, not police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Ward
There's no comparison between Aboriginal deaths in custody and what's happening in the U.S, both Philandro Castile and Alton Sterling were armed with concealed pistols, Tamir Rice was carrying an imitation gun while Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin both stupidly attacked armed men and lost their lives as a result.
Aborigines are rarely, if ever armed with handguns and rarely shot by police, I wonder how many American Negroes die in custody, under suspicious circumstances and why there's not more focus on those deaths?

Jay,

"The death of Mr Ward in outback W.A occurred in a prison transport van driven by G4S security guards, not police."

A moot point, I was merely pointing out that the same thing can happen in Australia, the US doesn't have a patent on callousness.

"There's.... both Philandro Castile and Alton Sterling were armed with concealed pistols,"

You neglect to point out that they were both legally so armed and possibly in both cases and certainly in one, they had informed the police of the fact; as is common practice and courtesy

Thank you everyone for some really terrific comments and observations. I have no greater nor less appreciation of the events taking place in the US between police and the African American community than anyone else.

Something I do think is entirely possible, as some of you have already eluded too - If something's not done reasonably soon, to try and repair the poor relations between the 'Law' and many of the dispossessed, including African Americans, Hispanics and other minorities within American society. The spectre of some sort of armed insurrection is not entirely out of the question ? From all accounts, the necessary weaponry is already in place.

The only thing stopping it is purely logistics, the inability to properly marshal all available manpower (numbers), in order to properly shatter the 'illusion' police have of their natural superiority over these groups, in situ ? Specifically in the projects, abandoned multi-storied housing and commercial premises, all of which can be found in any major American city. These areas are the sole preserve of the Gangs, (pardon the slang - 'the hood(s)' as such, they're controlled exclusively by armed criminal elements.

The one outcome no law-enforcement body wishes to repeat:- Is Waco TX. It's for this reason any future armed sedition, will be met by police in a much more 'measured' way. Yet still the police have this false belief, they're superior to these gangs. The Gangs allow the police to perpetuate this notion of superiority, because it suits them. Knowing they're NOT constricted by any convention, nor is there any legal accountability imposed, similar to that of police. Neither are they limited by the awful fallout, arising from the bungled assault that occurred at Waco TX, by Special Agents of the FBI and ATF.

And I wouldn't have a fundamental clue how to defuse such a critical mass !

Hi there POIROT...

Thank you very much for joining in the discussion, I appreciate it. I agree with much of what you've reported emanating from, Messrs Charles RAMSEY and Barack OBAMA. From my own observations, and conversations within my hearing, racism in the United States is so deeply entrenched and widespread, included in almost all demographics, I don't believe they'll ever be able to shed it's pervading evil in the foreseeable future.

To a certain extent, I apportion a small part of the blame on the legislature, for making it law. The population 'shall' accept African Americans in all areas and vocations within American society? I don't believe you can 'force' someone to like and accept another, under all circumstances, it's an educational process, not a mandated process in my view.

o sung wu, for the sake of the vast majority of Americans who are good people I hope you are wrong. Violence can only lead to more violence, more killings, and it is the good people who will suffer.
America has a tradition of being a violent society and unfortunately many see the only response to that violence is with more violence. I was not shocked by the events in Dallas, I expect that in American society, given the way it is. What was a bit of a shock was a black kid in the Dallas protest with an automatic weapon slung over his shoulder, nothing to do with the shootings, but he was just exercising his right to "bear arms" in Dallas not Baghdad.

Hi, o sung wu,

"To a certain extent, I apportion a small part of the blame on the legislature, for making it law. The population 'shall' accept African Americans in all areas and vocations within American society? I don't believe you can 'force' someone to like and accept another, under all circumstances, it's an educational process, not a mandated process in my view."

That, of course, is moot - "American society" is everyone...all the humans. Notwithstanding that all societies have an underclass - that's the class that get's to shoulder all the menial work and takes the brunt of hard times. In America it's African Americans and Hispanics. The other strata is poor white folk. These are of particular interest and utilisation because they are the ones who are emboldened by the snake oil of folks like Trump. Trump targets them because he realises they are poor and uneducated and easy prey for a little demagoguery. He knows they are vulnerable and scared and he's happy to raise their fear levels to accommodate a little Muslim hate to go with the rest of it.

Works a treat as we've seen with his equivalent in Australia in the likes of Hanson et al.

......

Paul,

That fella walking down the street to the peaceful demonstration with an AR-15 over his shoulder in camouflage gear seemed to have everyone's sympathy that he was initially splashed all over the media as a suspect in the shooting.

I wuz just exercising my Second Amendment right he said.

My take is how insane is a society that allows civilians to wander about with semi-automatic weapons draped across their bodies in ordinary peaceful urban settings. His was just one of a number of firearms handed to police by people at the march that day...those folks quite happy to strut about in what can only be described as intimidatingly - and when reality bites and some nutter starts shooting, they feign dismay that they are targeted as suspects.

Paul,

".... shock was a black kid in the Dallas protest with an automatic weapon slung over his shoulder, nothing to do with the shootings, but he was just exercising his right to "bear arms" in Dallas not Baghdad"

He didn't have an automatic weapon, automatic firearms are very strictly regulated in the US; he was however extremely stupid.

Is Mise,

"He didn't have an automatic weapon, automatic firearms are very strictly regulated in the US; he was however extremely stupid."

He had a dirty great AR-15 slung over his shoulder - and he was garbed in a camouflage print shirt.

Interesting how you deem him "stupid".

He was doing exactly what the law in his state allows - and the kind of thing the NRA approves of. The fact that he was strutting about trying to make himself look intimidating, strolling down the road with other folk heading to a peaceful rally is par for the course in the US. I've lost count of the number of pics I've seen of similarly clad American youths doing things like buying ice cream with long firearms slung over themselves.

They do it because they can..the fact that many of them are immature, uneducated...stupid....trying to look intimidating - apparently isn't something that's taken into account when some of these jurisdiction pass their ridiculous open-carry laws.

Lets all not forget the US government gave thousands of high-powered weapons to Mexican drug cartels.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/04/08/barack-obama-backs-operation-fast-furious-drops-executive-privilege-claim-documents/

Let's not forget the roots of America's malaise:

"I became interested in figuring out the language: how do Americans talk about the poor? And then I realized that this is connected to the larger problem Americans have about class, that they believe a myth. We are told over and over again by writers, sometimes journalists, but mainly politicians, that we are an exceptional country, that we embrace the American dream. And that’s rooted to this idea that we believe in social mobility. And we think that that idea, that promise, goes all the way back to the American revolution, that at that moment we broke free from the British system and that somehow we unburdened ourselves from the English class system. Now this is a problem that Americans have – they often prefer the myth over reality."

".... I became very aware of the importance of how Jefferson talked about the poor. He has this amazing line where, at the same moment that he’s calling for the education of the poor, something the Virginia legislature would reject, he refers to the poor as “rubbish.”"

"Right. And this is one other thing I talk about: the problem of our American democracy. And we can take it back to Andrew Jackson. An Australian writer wrote in 1949 that we don’t have a real democracy, we have what’s called a democracy of manners. Which means that people will accept huge disparities of wealth, but they will vote for someone who pretends to be just like us. And how do politicians do that? In Trump’s case, he steps down from his penthouse, puts on his bubba cap..."

Shades of Hanson there.

http://www.salon.com/2016/07/09/the_deep_roots_of_white_trash_in_america_not_only_are_we_not_a_post_racial_society_we_are_certainly_not_a_post_class_society/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Might interest you, o sung wu, quite a lengthy article examining the class system of America which, together with that country's love affair with modern weaponry, will probably feed its continuing societal dysfunction.

Poirot,

Well, he didn't have an automatic weapon, let's be accurate.

I deem him stupid because that was not the time to strut one's Constitutional Rights; Americans also have the Constitutional Right to free speech but anyone who walks into a theatre and shouts "FIRE!" would also be stupid.

Is Mise,

The point we have been making is that if it's legislated to open-carry weapons or whatever with firearms...who takes into account the stupidity or maliciousness of the certain members of the general population?

It's like a game of roulet...just hoping you dont get in the sights of a nutter with a perfectly "legal" right to carry a weapon that shoots deadly missiles from a distance.

Poirot,

"The point we have been making is that if it's legislated to open-carry weapons or whatever with firearms...who takes into account the stupidity or maliciousness of the certain members of the general population?"

The point we have been making is that if it's legislated to drive cars or whatever....who takes into account the stupidity or maliciousness of the certain members of the general population; 394 dead by the latest official information, and that''s not even with weapons.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-daily.pdf

I am sure that the so called 'Negro-Americans'(politically loaded leftist junk language) who are doing well have a different and entirely commonsense explanation for their success, happiness and why they and their issue will continue to thrive in that wonderful democracy that is America.

They took advantage of the opportunities available to them and made the right choices, which usually require some self discipline, hard work and delayed gratification.

They take pride in themselves and do not make others the excuses for their own poor decisions.

There is no better system of government than democracy. The leftists in their echo chamber indulging their hatred of the US should sit down for a few minutes and actually listen to the migrants in the US and Australia who come from the manner of totalitarian regimes that the leftist favour -While quaffing their expensive monkey-crapped coffee that someone else had to gather, process, make and serve to them of course.

Hi there POIROT...

Of course American society is everyone, and includes everybody without exception. Regrettably, from my own 'limited' observations of American police in their workplace, it's not just a case of White officers vs Black Officers. In fact there are some very successful unions, and working relationships between Black and White cops, mainly in the bigger Departments in the larger more affluent cities.

Rarely will you manage to successfully orchestrate a Latino cop, to crew with a Black cop for eight hours. Save for detective squads. They're generally (unofficially) partition themselves into three. Black, White and Latino detectives and surprisingly they can generally work well together.

All C of P are mandated to create a working environment which is harmonious for all races in their Department. Apparently any sign of overt racism from anyone is sufficient grounds for instant dismissal. - The upshot of that is a simmering undercurrent of resentment and vocational acrimony.

Strangely White and Latino Patrolmen (uniformed) can be rostered together as crew, but prefer to crew with each other. I was surprised to see how many African Americans, held quite senior positions both in command and in the executive branch of most large Police Departments. Particularly if the City or Twp has a black Mayor.

G'day there PAUL1405...

Indeed, I hope I'm wrong too Paul ? I don't conceal the fact that I do enjoy my guns. I don't hunt, what I try to do, is place small holes in large paper targets with the aid of a F/A. However my greatest interest is in the engineering component of high quality small arms.

What does concern me greatly is the proliferation of all manner of F/A's in the United States of America. I didn't see the lad wandering around with an assault rifle over his shoulder, all because he has the 'right to bear arms' apparently ? What unadulterated nonsense !

He also has the 'right' to act responsibly, and not cause an already nervous citizenry to further anxiety, by observing this stupid irresponsible lad parading around with a F/A, notwithstanding his right to bear arms. Here, he'd cop several charges involving his behaviour, initially with his arrest, confiscation of his gun, causing serious alarm and affront, etc.

America seems to smitten with this notion, 'right to bear arms' so lets each houshold accumulate a mass of guns, just in case !

Hi again POIROT...

I read a substantial part of that extract you kindly sent me that was listed in 'Salon' apropos 'poor white trash'. It's certainly very true, the amount of homeless people that you see laying around the streets of so called affluent US cities, is a sad indictment on American society. Buffalo NY was one such metropolis that struck me as evidence of a broken community. As long as there's a plentiful supply of guns, why worry ?

Dear o sung wu,

An interesting question arises here that you are probably better qualified to answer than most.

Philando Castile was shot in his car after declaring that he had a concealed carry permit which meant when he reached for his ID as per the police instruction the officer felt in fear of his life and killed him.

However the interaction between Mark Hughes who was openly carrying a legally registered AK-15 and the officer to whom he turned his weapon in was very measured and respectful on both sides.
https://twitter.com/mikelesliewfaa/status/751292548258209793

So would a black man openly carrying a weapon garner a more 'measured and respectful' response from an attending policeman? Perhaps in such a weaponised society this may be a way of stabilising attitudes even if it is of the 'mutually assured destruction'variety.

Hey Steele Redux,
I think I heard yesterday that Philando Castile matched the description of a wanted black man who had just committed armed robberies, which was why they pulled him over and why the officer was acting the way he did.
No excuses for killing him though, but this is the backstory I heard.

If you go and look at all the stats you find that this whole situation isn't really a racial issue, twice as many white people are killed by police despite the fact blacks make up the bulk of arrests.
In this way it's the whites which are more likely to be killed by police.
Also black people are 99% more likely to be killed by other blacks in their communities than by police so if its about black lives mattering, then for their own safety blacks needs to protected from other black people.
This is what the stats say.

This is truly more of a police brutality (or lack of the right training) issue rather than a race issue but its being portrayed as a race issue for political gain and no disrespect to o sung wu but one of the other big problems going on relating to police in the US is civil forfeiture.
Police are just blatantly robbing people.
Thankfully some of the states are now ending this practice.

Poirot,
Regards Donald Trump he's been saying the same things for decades.
'This Video Will Get Donald Trump Elected'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCabT_O0YSM

I honestly don't understand the people who bash Trump and Hanson.
They may have their faults but they are more honest than any politicians any of our countries has had in decades.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I really don't know, in answer to your question. I 'think' (I can't say for certain), most uniform cops working in the more black enclaves, in the poorer parts of most US cities, are probably very nervous, even scared at the moment ? Whenever one is dealing with belligerent or aggressive blacks, most especially those congregating in gangs, it's a most comforting feeling to 'clear leather' and have that .40cal. or 9mm handgun locked and loaded in your hand. To quote a veteran Patrolman in a NJ Department.

I just can't imagine two armed individuals, one a black cop, the other a white man both proffering weapons, would necessarily peacefully yield to each other, even if the roles were reversed. Unfortunately racial hatred runs deep, so who knows if some common ground could be met, in order to preserve the 'mutually assured destruction' paradigm ?

I think the African Americans, often overreact to what they
perceive as racism.

Probably understandable given the slave history in America.
But never the less they do overreact.

OJ Simpson was one case of over-reaction by the black community in
America.
They reacted as though it was a white plot when OJ was arrested.
And a black Jury found him innocent, because they based their verdict on
perceived racial persecution and not calm thinking.

I think the fact that if you asked most blacks in America today,if he was
guilty, they would probably say yes.
More testimony to the fact that they overreacted to perceived racism
And a guilty man walked free.

It is not always a white plot. Reason needs to prevail.
The Americans have themselves to blame for this loss of control in their
country. They were all too willing to have cheap black labour to make money
and pay mexicans a pittance to work as maids and servants and shop staff.

It is happening in Australia too, where they are bringing people in
on visas to get cheap labour. People benefit by making profits by all the new
customers comin in also. But those same people making big profits then
dont want to fund more hospitals and childcare, pensions etc. They want the profit side
of more people but not the providing for the social cost like more hospitals,roads etc.

Eventually we will lose control of this country also, like the Americans will from
bringing in too many migrants to exploit.
Strange that the left wing side of politics supports this capitalist agenda,at the risk
of lsing control of their own country.

Hi there CHERFUL...

Your comments apropos O.J.SIMPSON are pretty spot on in my opinion. The reasons you suggest; the Defence has ensured the jurors have been thoroughly persuaded, this whole People vs. SIMPSON prosecution was simply a white plot, and a clever conspiracy, in order to defame this much acclaimed and respected African American sportsman and actor ? Gives further rise to the reason(s) you suggest, for his subsequent acquittal too.

Unfortunately with instances of racism, comes instances of 'reverse racism', and many State governments are too intimidated to make tough decisions in case they appear to be raciest. Unfortunately there's evidence some of this reverse racism, is occurring here in Oz, which can't be a good thing ? Thanks for your thoughts CHERFUL.

o sung wu,

Just stepping to one side of the discussion taking place and not intending to divert the thread, Google 'confirmation bias'.

Now, what I would like to confirm with you is that of all people and that includes those 'experts' like Poirot who are responding to this thread, police are some of the very LEAST likely to be influenced by stereotyping (see confirmation bias) that could result in injury to another.

The training of police and VERY DEFINITELY where use of the side arm is concerned, is strongly pitched towards ensuring that INFORMED judgement is exercised before drawing their service pistol, let alone aiming and discharging it.

I refer to my earlier posts too, but there is none better than the very sage observations by Hasbeen [page 1, the first post in reply to the original post].

I haven't had experience of the seamy side of life thank God. However through my regular exposure to police and the good citizens other community service oriented occupations from my earlier business interests and volunteering, I can affirm that it is extremely unlikely that those who undertake and stick with the community-oriented vocations and especially the police forces in democracies, would be prejudiced against any sector of the population, EXCEPT criminals.

It is a very great pity that those who are now laying into police don't demonstrate any support for them in the ordinary course of life either.

tbc..

I am heartily sick of the leftists - types like the Trotskyist NSW Greens - who are forever trying to bring police and other supports and GLUE of society into disrepute.

It is NOT possible in a population as large as the police forces in the US (or here for that question), that a mistake in not made some day. Mistakes are instantly regretted and reviewed by all of the force and the society that supports the good work done by police.

The fundamental protection we enjoy is democracy. Second and damned crucial too, freedom of speech. If police or any public servant has done wrong then it WILL be corrected.

I wish that those who are carping critics had similar tests of their honesty and character and were subject to similar ethics.

Now, I can seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest there is any better system of government than democracy and the US version is damned good too.

"I am heartily sick of the leftists - types like the Trotskyist NSW Greens - who are forever trying to bring police and other supports and GLUE of society into disrepute. "

Thatnks, otb...you never disappoint us....now find a way to include "feminists" and you'll be home and hosed!

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Here in Australia the thought of ever drawing and discharging your service weapon in the course of your duty is probably one of the most momentous decisions any copper would need to make in his career.

In over 32 years service, I could count on just both hands the number of occasions I've needed to draw my service weapon. When a member draws his gun, he 'must' be prepared to use it. Not a bluff, nor a pretence, but to use it. Fortunately I've never actually fired a shot at another. Other than the lawful destruction of a large mixed breed dog, a task I shamefully completely buggered up, requiring two shots, due to the emotional conflict it had on my judgement at that time ?

The legal and internal investigation (ethical standards - justification) following a fatal shooting by police, is positively horrendous, both physically and emotionally on the Officer concerned, and it can take months.

Of course that doesn't include the exhaustive Coronial Enquiry either, which possesses enormous powers to tease out every minute detail, that may throw some light on that shooting. Lastly, confronting (usually at the Inquest) the deceased's NoK ? Irrespective of how 'righteous' to use an American phrase, the shooting may be, to face the NoK, while giving evidence, is positively harrowing, something police often find the most difficult and emotionally draining, of all.

To address your assertion; police in Oz, don't have the luxury to form deeply held prejudices or bias, when they perform duty. There are far too many observers, the media, the law, the administration, all of whom very carefully audit every important decision and subsequent action, that police make, to allow any individual Officer the luxury to harbour any overt bias or prejudice. Privately, we all have our likes and dislikes. Those private thoughts are more or less dispensed with, the second you attend 'muster' prior to commencing your shift.

Clearly there are far to many killings in the USA both amongst civilians and by cops (and too many police deaths as well).

I've not managed to get to a satisfactory point in digging through various stats to feel that I understand all of the issues involved and it appears that there has not been a consistent collection of stats in the USA in the past. Some impressions so far.

- Police shootings bear a significant correlation to the propensity of demographics to be involved in violent crime. Despite making up similar proportions of the US population the majority of those killed by police are male. African American young males are killed by police at a higher rate than other groups but the evidence I've seen suggests that they are involved in violent crime at far higher rates than other groups.
- Some material I've seen that in relation to the respective demographic groupings involvement in violent crime young white males are more likely to be shot by police officers in the US than young African American males. I think the ration was around 1.7 times as likely.
- The overwhelming majority of killings of African Americans is by other African Americans. Something that does not get through from the material I've seen from from the Black Lives Matter group although that may be a matter of what gets publicised by the media.
- African Americans are more likely to kill whites than whites are to kill African Americans.
- Both groupings are more likely to kill members of their own demographic than the other.
- Some cops are bad but in the overwhelming majority of cases it appears that those who die in police shootings contribute significantly to escalating the situation - either due to making bad choices from nerves, attitude or just plain stupidity.
TBC

R0bert

- In a country were a lot of people are allowed to "carry" every police interaction on the streets carries a higher risk to the police than it does here where the majority of those the police deal with won't be armed. That increased risk is likely to have police who are more risk adverse in a rapidly developing situation than they are here.
- Much has been made of the shooting of Tamir Rice, a child playing with a toy gun. He3 was 12 years old and from the Wikipedia page could pass as older. He was playing with a replica pistol which had an orange indicator that it was a replica removed from it. He reportedly pulled the replica gun out of his waist band when instructed to put his hands in the air. In hindsight a terrible mistake but a 12 year old drawing what appeared to be a pistol out of his pants when instructed to put his hands in the air increases the risks in that situation dramatically. A public park is not the place for a boy of that age to be pointing a replica pistol at anybody.
- There does not appear to be any significant indications of widespread racial prejudice in the police shootings of African Americans, if anything they may be shot less often than whites when demographic involvement in violent crime is factored in (and if you are not factoring that in then it's a massive gender issue).

R0bert

Dear o sung wu,

Given your experience I would like to hear your thoughts on this shooting which occurred last week in California. The video is from an officer's body cam.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/13/body-camera-footage-released-dylan-noble-police-shooting

Do you think yourself and Australian policemen you have worked with would have acted differently if so how?

I would hope our police would deal with it very differently but our police are not operating in an environment where large numbers of the population carry guns.

Dylan Noble appeared to be repeatedly ignoring very clear instructions about what he was required to do and in my view played a major and unnecessary role in aggravating a tense situation.

Initial instructions to put both hands on the windscreen were seemingly ignored judging by the repeated calls for him to perform that action. He left the vehicle without being instructed to do so. From what I saw of the incident he did not comply fully with any of the quite simple instructions he was given.

I don't want situations were police are pointing weapons at me, I don't want to be made to lie on the tarmac in a service station but mostly if I'm ever dealing with the police I don't want them thinking the situation is physically out of their control. They want to go home at the end of the day too.

R0bert

A fair summation by R0bert.

It would be a most unfortunate twist if it transpires that citizens who are licensed must be extremely careful where police may regard them as potential criminals. Logically, anyone who met the stringent conditions for a licence and continues to satisfy them to maintain that licence should be perceived by police as the very last persons who might attack them.

For the benefit of both sides, the licensed citizen and the police, two conditions seem necessary:

- first, well publicised protocols for declaring possession of the licensed firearm on the occasion of being stopped by police; and,

- secondly, that the licensed person must never be complacent and comply immediately and to the letter with police directions.

The latter can be a problem where a well-meaning, over-cooperative licence holder might do something ill-advised like trying to show police where the firearm is without being directed to do so.

Some police can be inexperienced, overzealous and naive.

No so long ago a young fellow in Brisbane Australia, was quite harshly dealt with by a police patrol, who also called out support. It was quite a dangerous situation for the young driver who was getting home late from work.

The object that caused the dire emergency when he had been stopped for a random breath test? The constable had spotted a 'club' type steering wheel lock on the floor and imagined it was a gun (?!). Angry police told the car driver it was his fault and he was stupid to have such a lock. He has little money and his car is old and likely to be stolen. Poor bloke, that was a complete farce. The patrol were idiots who should be finding other employment.

There are the odd cases of volunteer firemen who light bushfires.
The odd police member really hopes to taser / smoke a perp.

"It is undeniable that police in the US often contend with much more violent situations and more heavily armed individuals than police in other developed democratic societies. Still, looking at our data for the US against admittedly less reliable information on police killings elsewhere paints a dramatic portrait, and one that resonates with protests that have gone global since a killing last year in Ferguson, Missouri: the US is not just some outlier in terms of police violence when compared with countries of similar economic and political standing.

America is the outlier – and this is what a crisis looks like.

Fact: In the first 24 days of 2015, police in the US fatally shot more people than police did in England and Wales, combined, over the past 24 years.

Behind the numbers: According to The Counted, the Guardian’s special project to track every police killing this year, there were 59 fatal police shootings in the US for the days between 1 January and 24 January.

According to data collected by the UK advocacy group Inquest, there have been 55 fatal police shootings – total – in England and Wales from 1990 to 2014."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries?CMP=share_btn_tw

Indirectly, a NZ study on physical violence found that the ratio of its community offences with US was equal. But almost no NZ events involved guns obviously. Many lands have violent police . The outlier is evidently the insane sacred duty to carry guns in US.

"...The outlier is evidently the insane sacred duty to carry guns in US."

Yep...

Sure makes you wonder how the UK would be getting on if it had inherited the multicultural social problems of the US, where serious violence with and without weapons is almost invariably black on black, involving gangs and drugs. Second by a distance are Hispanic offenders.

How can it be that so many black Americans bloom in the US, taking advantage of their opportunities and raising happy families, but some are exactly the opposite and regardless of the billions spent on positive affirmative action and other assistance?

What is wrong with the leftist 'progressive'(sic) social engineering that it always increases problems rather than diminishing them?

In the US the great leftist hope, the urbane, motor-mouth and Harvard educated Barack Obama, now a lame duck President, had enjoyed a golden opportunity to set up a national independent inquiry into black social problems using one or more of the US's prestigious universities. But Obama squandered his chance, preferring to promote himself on the world stage instead.

Now Obama concludes his presidency finding diversions and whipping boys. No chance there it appears. Next, another 'Clintonist', which is the new word for a habitual liar.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Given the Body Camera wasn't as clear as I would've hoped. It's a long standing US police practice, that you 'must' see a suspects hands, including any others in the suspects vehicle.

This is a consequence of the high number of police, suffering serious injury or death, that many police are understandably quite anxious whenever they need to intercept a suspicious M/V. I've attended two separate 'Officer Survival' seminars, each of 44 hours duration, in the US and it was drummed into us ad infinitum, '...you guys have gotta watch those damn hands, it's the hands and what's in 'em, that'll get you killed...' (Special Agent Ron ADAMS Honolulu, HAWAII 1987) and (Lt. Jerry LANE Springfield, MA. 1986)

The motive for my going on about 'hands'; I believe it goes in some way, to explain the reason's the police shot the unfortunate Mr NOBLE in the first place ? For whatever reason, it appeared Mr NOBLE 'failed to comply, or couldn't comply (fully)' with the lawful directions of police. Why, I don't know.

To answer your question STEELEREDUX. If I were confronted with EXACTLY the same circumstances, that confronted these police...I would not have discharged my F/A. Neither would many of my colleagues either, I would've thought. Of course I wasn't there !

Why wouldn't I have fired my weapon ?

(i)The suspect wasn't attempting to abscond;

(ii)There were two police officers present, so there was no 'immediate' danger to police, or any other individual evident;

(iii)police had adequate (ballistically resistant) cover available to them (police vehicle);

(iv)Mr NOBLE was clearly confused by the precise directions given him by police, and that was clearly noticeable by many of his 'jerky' movements;

It's very difficult for a person to adopt the prone position 'upon a command', without first, using one or both hands in order to aid them to comply.

I hope this brief explanation goes in some small way in clarifying the Australian police approach to dealing with potentially deadly force decisions. As you'd expect STEELEREDUX, this is an inexact science, at it's best ?

Both ROBERT & ONTHEBEACH have a pretty reasonable appreciation of the current climate concerning police shootings and armed civilian response to those shootings.

To my untrained eye it would appear that the United States and it's people, including some of my friends, are rapidly sliding into the deep abyss of self-annihilation, under the muzzle of the almighty gun. Bloody guns !

Up until perhaps the last thirty, thirty five years, British police were not armed. Nor were many criminals, including the 'hard heads'. In fact the major crime against the State, was knocking over a Securicor Armoured CIT Van. The weapon of choice - a threat of ammonia, occasionally acid in the face, if it all went bad ! No guns were necessary. When detectives raided these crooks abode, they were never armed, only with truncheons and handcuffs, is all.

I honestly can't see any salvation for the American people and as I said earlier, I've still got some really good friends living there including my former instructors and teachers both in the Bureau and a number of large Police Departments, on the East Coast.

The main obstacle to any sort of structured gun reform, is the NRA. And they're far too politically influential with Congress, to be motivated by the absolute moral urgency, of a nation wide gun moratorium. Even deploying martial law, to thoroughly clean out all the refuge's which conceal many of these heavily armed gang members, of either, white, black, or Latino ethnicity, might work ?

What a tumultuous mess this once great, United States of America is in, and without the slightest notion of how to extricate themselves out of it; just as long as the answer's not to be found in:- 'gun control'.

Hasn't anyone noticed what is likely to happen to you if you point a knife at police in Australia?

" ..how the UK would be getting on if it had inherited the multicultural social problems of the US.."
US Democracy= shoot the British , so there's a stumble at the starting gate. UK outlawed slavery 30 years before the civil blood-bath so that's another set-back. UK has columns or buildings to honour royals while US makes giant facial copies of Almighty Presidents. And say guns are to protect people against their US government . ( see first sentence)

Dear o sung wu,

Thank you for that perspective. I appreciate the thought that went into it.

As you say neither of us were there but what I find extraordinary is that the officer thought it was appropriate in the circumstance to fire and extra round into this unarmed man as he lay dying on the road.

These are some of my thoughts.

There is obviously a difference in the way our police forces are trained and certainly that has something to do with the proliferation of guns in the US. Anyone who would want that for our country needs to given short shrift.

But I'm wondering if there is a cultural aspect that needs to be given more weight. The death penalty still has wide support in the US. The willingness to take a life may well be more instinctive even ingrained.

Further in an ultra materialistic society protection of 'stuff' warrants potentially taking a life. I for the life of my can not conceive of shooting someone who I caught breaking in or stealing my car, but in the US it almost seems obligatory.

But for me the sense of 'never give a sucker an even break', 'winner take all' and 'victory at all costs' that seems to permiate the US culture is a marker of difference. I for one find Mixed Martial Arts where two men are put in a cage to fight to the finish with only the most basic of rules distills this perfectly. In boxing when you knock your opponent down you go to a neutral corner to wait to see if he can continue. In MMA you are allowed to beat him into submission on the canvas. Perhaps I am getting old but I find it extremely distasteful but it is very American.

I keep returning to the clip from The Wire I posted earlier, 'policing for the community' vs 'it's a war out there' are distinctly different approaches to the same situations. Differences in attitude drive different approaches.

Dear R0bert,

Thank you for you input.

You wrote;

“Dylan Noble appeared to be repeatedly ignoring very clear instructions about what he was required to do and in my view played a major and unnecessary role in aggravating a tense situation. Initial instructions to put both hands on the windscreen were seemingly ignored judging by the repeated calls for him to perform that action. He left the vehicle without being instructed to do so. From what I saw of the incident he did not comply fully with any of the quite simple instructions he was given.”

Should any of those actions have resulted in him losing his life? The fact that he was obviously confused should not have been a death sentence. Perhaps he could have been mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs but neither of these are a reason to kill him.
As in England and what is taught to police in Victoria rolling containment could have been used but it wasn't. By not fully complying with the instructions the person was deemed to have failed the 'attitude test' and was gunned down then shot again as he lay dying. I don't think 99% of Australians would deem what occurred to have been warranted at all. You seem to think otherwise.

Hi (again) STEELEREDUX...

Off topic a little, nevertheless I had to make a comment ? This 'Mixed Martial Arts' rubbish should be completely banned everywhere. It's simply an expression of unequivocal violence without rules, confined in a cage. I boxed professionally, early in the seventies, (preliminaries 6 & 8 rounders) with permission of Force Command, and the sport was well organised and regulated, in terms of either combatant getting hurt.

However this MMA nonsense, should be immediately outlawed ! If anyone wishes to see a really good 'stink', I could introduce you to some blokes I know who're currently languishing in Long Bay Gaol, who can really go the knuckle', and would absolutely 'eat' any of these MMA types. Unfortunately it's their ability to quickly dispatch other so called tough guys, that's landed them in 'Long Bay' in the first instance !

"Warranted" - not really. A situation that was an unfortunate consequence of the ridiculous gun violence culture in his country combined with his own very poor choices yes.

I don't see it as him being gunned down for failing an attitude test. He had repeatedly failed to comply with instructions designed to give police more confidence that their own lives are not at risk and was walking towards the police when the first bullets were fired.

The police were as I understand it responding to reports of a weapon being brandished from a vehicle which they apparently suspected was Dylan's.

"Perhaps he could have been mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs but neither of these are a reason to kill him." and yet he had been driving a large vehicle on public roads in the lead up to this incident. If he was too confused, mentally ill or under the influence of drugs to the point where he could not understand the instructions given to him then he was a serious threat to others operating that vehicle.

It's a horrible situation, a do get significantly bothered though by what appears to be the misrepresentation of the police role in most of the cases I've seen where it's very clear the individuals involved made choices which made themselves look like a significant risk to the police involved.

R0bert

o sung wu,

There is a lot of advocacy 'research' and 'reports' about and all deliberately and slyly framed to mislead for political purposes.

If you are searching for reliable, non-partisan research go to the Pew Research Centre,

http://www.pewresearch.org/

from Wikipedia,
"The Pew Research Center is a nonpartisan American think tank which is based in Washington, D.C. It provides information on social issues, public opinion, and demographic trends shaping the United States and the world. It also conducts public opinion polling, demographic research, media content analysis, and other empirical social science research. Pew Research Center does not take explicit policy positions, and is a subsidiary of The Pew Charitable Trusts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pew_Research_Center

Example relevant report from the Pew Research Centre (also useful to read the comments),

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

@Is Mise, Friday, 15 July 2016 4:04:24 PM

Touche.

Complicated. I will restrict my reply to one element of a wider spectrum of poor decisions and lack of planning by Commonwealth governments.

I have commented before on the lack of practical, realistic, short and long term options for both community (esp., carers and families of people with mental health issues) and police dealing with marginal IQ and mental health sufferers. The police are being caused to handle difficult often intractable issues that are outside of their brief and training of course.

Both sides of government and including Greens sold off the previous excellent Commonwealth mental health and rehabilitation facilities. They aped UK policies already found to be flawed, based as they were on idealism not evidence and threw the baby out with the bathwater.

With apologies to RObert, not wanting to away from your post above which deserves consideration replies.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Many thanks for that most interesting link you kindly sent me. They seem to be a well balanced research group, with some interesting views, both on US and world affairs. With time I'll quietly pursue it more carefully. Thanks again my friend.

o sung wu,

Thanks.

It is good to be on the side of curiosity and discovery, valuing evidence over win/lose positioning and arguments.

Learning more about the world to make some sense of our experience is useful.

I am always astounded that some can carry their unthinking opposition to authority to the grave. Spending their lives distrusting and disrespecting the very people they would call upon to protect and rescue them in any minor emergency.

I suppose a lot is in how one is brought up.

One of my very early recollections of police was of the Police Sergeant who had difficulty standing he was so weary from the driving sleet and hours on the job. But he wouldn't quit the search for the wee child who had wandered off into the bush. He couldn't go home feeling he had abandoned the infant out in the cold and rain as we were. The men made a bed out of blankets and canvas tarp and he was dead to the world before he could drink his steaming tea or eat the stew brought by other volunteers.

I was a country kid involved in the search and saw it all. Not my first search, I knew the surrounding bush and mountains. We had grazing land bordering kilometres of public road, rest stops and State/national parks. Some memories can plague you forever and can come back when you least expect them, but always leave so slowly.

I am sure that 99.9% of the alleged 'shocking' behaviour of the US police is down to images from Hollywood, and the hares set loose by defending criminal barristers and sensationalist tabloid media.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

The police of yesteryear are far different to those of today. When you and I were mere youngsters, our opinion of police particularly the old sergeant in the bush, we held them in absolute awe ? I wasn't afraid of them, rather I had enormous respect for them.

You and I, we lived in different times, with much higher standards the community at large expected of us ? Today, conforming to those community 'standards'? The word standard(s) can't be found, in even a rudimentary lexicon ?

You're obviously from the bush too OTB ? Way back you'd recall the old bush police sergeant did practically everything. Moreover he held many ex officio appointments, some not even remotely to do with, the enforcement of the law. Such as, Deputy Mining Warden's bailiff; Deputy Marshal of the Admiralty (most necessary if you were stationed at Bourke, NSW ?) Immigration Officer; and Deputy Post Master, to cite just a few of his many appointments ?

As I mentioned in another Topic, I was a relieving sergeant in the bush and found it absolutely fascinating, and far better than big city policing - My wife nevertheless didn't find it so, consequently we remained in the City.

We both lived in far better, even luckier times. Albeit we were dirt poor, I thoroughly enjoyed my youth, and schooling.

I totally agree with your last paragraph; a lot of what's dished up on our TV, with a profusion of US Cop shows to select from, 'shapes' many of our opinions, concerning the operational nature of American Police.

Three more police deaths today...

Here's what US reporter Megan Brilley, posted on twitter:

"Just went to the most recent listed address for the alleged #BatonRouge shooter in KC... A man answered the door with an AK-47"

Tell me again that the US doesn't have gun problem....

Hi there POIROT...

I don't believe anyone in their right mind could possibly say the United States doesn't have a gun problem ! Not just your normal .22 bolt action Rimfire, the kind used on rabbits. Rather they seem to have an unfettered access to sophisticated military small arms of a type and calibre dedicated to the destruction of a human being !

About 2006, in company with my wife, we payed a visit to a F/A Store, quaintly named; 'Machine Gun Kelly' in Las Vegas. Thereat, one could (for a few dollars) live-fire many different types and styles of sub-guns, and for those who were unsure how to load and fire each model, an eager staff member would happily oblige by demonstrating the whole operation. An example of true American customer Service.

Despite their 'right to bear arms' nobody can make a case for permitting the general population to possess and use military styled small arms, particularly those that may have a 'select fire' option that can easily be modified to full 'rock 'n roll !

I know I'll be critized by some of you, for taking such a moderate leftist stance. But we've got to draw the line somewhere, before our American cousins obliterate themselves.

Poirot,

Sorry to be pedantic but the ordinary US citizen is not permitted to have an AK47.
To be licenced in the US to have weapons capable of fully automatic fire requires going through a licencing process that is very strict.

@Poirot, Monday, 18 July 2016 9:50:43 AM

What gun wouldn't you feel is threatening, 'problematic' and evidence of a 'gun culture'?

You wouldn't want Daisy air guns, replicas, toy guns or water pistols to fall into the 'wring' hand now would you?

What about knives? This young mother got herself into trouble with the police for being in her own kitchen with a knife,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/6957682/Myleene-Klass-warned-by-police-after-scaring-off-intruders-with-knife.html

Trucks? More restrictions necessary and ban those automatics?

Protective Police? At best police can only be a deterrent and then only a weak deterrent effect where most offenders are concerned. Had those youths decided to molest Marks & Spencer model Ms Klass and her 2 yr old daughter, they could have done so (see link above). She was told off by police, but what they didn't say was that both the ambulance and the coroner's van would likely have beaten them to the address if those youths had decided to call her bluff.

No inanimate object is a threat in itself. To be effective, regulation must focus on the user, the person and laws must be evidence based.

'wring' should be 'wrong'

o sung wu,

"Mr Kinsey on the ground with his arms in the air with the young autistic man sitting on the ground nearby playing with a small white toy.

In the video, Mr Kinsey can be heard shouting to police: "All he has is a toy truck. A toy truck. I am a behavioural therapist at a group home."

The video ends just before the bullet hits his leg."

""I am asking the officer, I said, 'sir, please don't shoot me. Please, do not shoot me'," he said.

"It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, 'I still got my hands in the air'.

"And I said, 'no I just got shot' and I'm saying, 'sir, why did you shoot me?' and his words to me, he said, 'I don't know'."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-22/police-in-florida-shoot-black-man-lying-on-ground/7650836

'...And he was placed on administrative leave...' according to police sources ?

Hi there POIROT...

I saw three police at the scene, surely to goodness three coppers could've used some other force option, if force was necessary at all. Of course I wasn't there, so I can only comment from what I've seen. To me it seemed to be a substantial overreaction to an incident that clearly didn't need armed intervention, other than assisting the autistic fellow (who apparently had a bit of attitude) from the road, lest he be hit by a car. And three coppers can't manage to do that !

I fully understand many US police are becoming 'gun shy' - imagining every black has a F/A secreted about his person. I guess I'd be the same if I performed duty in a large US City. But they all have other less lethal force options available to them, before the need to resort to a F/A. Including:-

(a) KB-26K (or similar) impact weapon;

(b)chemical incapacitants eg. CN, CS, or Pepper spray;

and finally,

(c)'Tasers' or similar.

All these 'aids' are officially issued to Officers, in order to assist and protect police before there's a need to resort to their F/A.

Furthermore there would be well over, ninety percent of every operational patrolmen, in addition to the minimum force options issued to them (above), many will also carry a 'felony 1 Sap'; a back-up F/A on his ankle, and other (unapproved) accoutrements to assist in controlling highly restrictive individuals.

POIROT, The only reason I've chosen to describe precisely, the number of non-lethal force options available to police, is to clearly illustrate, there are quite a few other options that police have available to them, before necessarily choosing 'lethal force', the gun.

@Poirot, Friday, 22 July 2016 11:56:26 AM

Trust the ABC, a looong column with plenty of words, a BLM inset and a beat-up to stir Oz indigenous activists.

Superficially, it does appear that some fool of a cop did something really stupid.

Here is the really good news (not 'fact checked' by the ABC):

- the media, anyone can publicise a complaint and with video footage;

- the incident will definitely be investigated very closely by other police and such investigations are harsh; and

- there is an appeals system including review in a democratically elected legislature.

Every attempt the Leftists make to drag the US down with conspiracy theories and alleged wrongs by government, eventually ends up proving the reverse, the strength of democracy and freedom of speech in the US.

Of course the leftists rely on creating a huge storm of protest before the facts and evidence are found by diligent investigators and put before a court where necessary. Protests that are first page news in tabloid today, but any apology IF forthcoming for a wrong, inflammatory report is very short and buried somewhere unlikely to be seen.

An abstract for some interesting experimental research at http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11292-012-9163-y

"Objective
Advance the methodological techniques used to examine the influence of suspect race and ethnicity on participant decisions to shoot in an experimental setting.

Results
In all three experiments using a more externally valid research method than previous studies, we found that participants took longer to shoot Black suspects than White or Hispanic suspects. In addition, where errors were made, participants across experiments were more likely to shoot unarmed White suspects than unarmed Black or Hispanic suspects, and were more likely to fail to shoot armed Black suspects than armed White or Hispanic suspects. In sum, this research found that participants displayed significant bias favoring Black suspects in their decisions to shoot."

That appears to match with findings I've seen which suggest that in the real world US police are more likely to shoot whites than blacks when involvement in violent crime is factored into the numbers.

R0bert

An article about the previously linked study at https://archive.is/ccDaI

R0bert

o sung wu,

"I fully understand many US police are becoming 'gun shy' - imagining every black has a F/A secreted about his person. I guess I'd be the same if I performed duty in a large US City. But they all have other less lethal force options available to them, before the need to resort to a F/A. Including:-"

Yes...I can see that they would be jumpy. With the plethora of firearms being toted around by the US population ,it makes for an extremely difficult task to police normal infringements.

Police in most other countries would have been able to deal with the situation without resorting to shooting. Even with that man prostate and visibly in surrender mode, he was shot.

I don't envy police in this situation. I think it's probably reached a point where this kind of thing is going to happen more often than not.

You can't allow the civilian population to possess such firepower - and then expect the police to be able to read their minds every time there's a confrontation.

Lol!.."prostrate"...

(I had it in mind when I wrote that not to get it wrong...but there you go...Poirot, the typo queen!)

Hi there POIROT...

I make no secret of the fact that I like the United States, and many of it's citizens. Therefore it makes me very sad indeed to see what's happening over there, with this profusion of guns among many of the general population, who really have absolutely no reason whatsoever to possess a F/A.

A good friend of mine, formerly a SSA with the Bureau, and the PFI for the entire West Coast, has since retired, and now provides an eight hour tactical pistol seminar, for the private sector. He's indicated the amount of work he's so far booked up, is already beyond February of 2017 and without any signs of slowing down. With many of the potential applicants, particularly women, seeking to undertake the 'concealed carry' tactical seminar, for personal safety.

Interestingly, the 'judgement' section - {'shoot'; 'don't shoot'} most students in their edgy, nervous, haste, shoot an innocent person. When reminded of the consequences, if that shooting had occurred in 'reality', the student could well be charged with manslaughter, or worse still second degree murder ?

When questioned as to why they shot an innocent person, '...I was so nervous...' or '...I couldn't see him clearly...' or worse '...it doesn't really matter, we're only under training...' ? Yes, they're only under training, so it doesn't really matter that much eh ?

Yet these folk have paid good money (c.$220 USD) to learn how to handle a pistol, both strategically, safely and tactically, in order to save themselves or another, from a violent attack. 'Judgement shooting' is vitally important for the most obvious reasons.

Yet these 'trained' individuals will be cut loose, to roam about in public, toting a concealed 'loaded' F/A, with some 'false' impression they're all quite accomplished and masterly with a powerful handgun ? And we here in Australia, inoffensively wonder why the American police are so nervous and jumpy when performing duty in the predominately black projects, and the streets and public places, that surround those projects ?

Poirot, "You can't allow the civilian population to possess such firepower - and then expect the police to be able to read their minds every time there's a confrontation"

A hysterical member of the public, someone very much like yourself maybe, reported a gun offence.

The same thing that happened in Brisbane not so long ago where public hysteria about guns resulted in a report that a soldier was 'running amok' with a firearm.

In Brisbane the police obliged and the unfortunate young man in his military dress was held to the ground with a police gun aimed at his head. Police side arms always have one up the spout and do not need to be coscked, only grasped to be ready to go, no safety. The side arm must be that way for reasons that would not be obvious nor justifiable to the breathless Poirot's of the world.

Despite the very low incidence of firearm crime in Australia and such crime trending down for years (and before Howard) the public are led by the tabloid media and 'gun control' lobbyists likely sponsored by overseas interests to believe otherwise.

Similarly in the US where there is going on 300 million people in a multicultural society with social problems that are very largely black on black and drugs and gang related, despite the fact that gun crime dropped and levelled out, there are politicians and other interests with a vested interest, particularly for cynical electoral advantage, of convincing the population otherwise.

It has already emerged that the original leftist claims that 'white' police prejudice was behind a deliberate shooting of a black, it has an accident. An accident caused by;

1. A wrong report of a serious gun crime by a member/members of the public; and,

2. Poor communication among police, where one of the officers who had to go for long arms had aimed to incapacitate the correct (as reported) 'offender', but a bullet injured the supposed victim instead. Murphy's Law - but luckily poor shooting on this occasion.

The claims of police prejudice against blacks has been laid to rest. Or have they? The leftists know that another big lie and distrust of the police and US social institutions and democracy have been nailed once again and thanks to manipulation of social and mainstream tabloid media.

Now to swing it for 'gun control' bans and compulsory confiscation of the property of legally licensed, non-offending citizens - but NOT criminals and their illegal guns - as desired by the Soros outfit (with Ford Foundation and other very wealthy interests), instead of effective firearms regulation based on evidence and professional risk analysis.

Soros
http://seeker401.wordpress.com/2016/01/30/soros-invested-in-firearm-companies-while-backing-gun-control-groups/

and,

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-30/george-soros-s-tax-bill

and,

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/05/16/panama-papers-reveal-george-soros-deep-money-ties-to-secretive-weapons-intel-firm.html

Morning to you POIROT...

I feel it necessary that I offer you my most profound apology for the disgusting insult hurled at you yesterday, by another contributor on The Forum. I believe it was down to me alone, who precipitated the argument initially, that unintentionally dragged you into the melee. Thus setting you up as it were, to receive this disparaging and offensive 'sledging' from this immature fellow in the first place !

Again, I'm so very sorry POIROT for pulling you into this tedious mess that was never of your making !

o sung wu,

No need for you to apologise. It was my decision to get involved and make a comment.

I'm not backward in coming forward on this forum as you know, however, that poster tends to hit bellow the belt often. I'm mindful that you are a particularly courteous poster on OLO and I suppose that prompted my intervention.

Again, no need for you to apolgise (and I can't say I was surprised by his reaction)

Cheers : )

Hi there POIROT...

We've disagreed in the past, and I'm sure we'll disagree in the future.

With all that; the one thing that I do know - 'You've got real elegance POIROT' !

BTT

It is such a shame that RObert's post lies buried. An excerpt,

" An abstract for some interesting experimental research at http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11292-012-9163-y

"Objective
Advance the methodological techniques used to examine the influence of suspect race and ethnicity on participant decisions to shoot in an experimental setting.

Results

..In sum, this research found that participants displayed significant bias favoring Black suspects in their decisions to shoot."

That appears to match with findings I've seen which suggest that in the real world US police are more likely to shoot whites than blacks when involvement in violent crime is factored into the numbers."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7377&page=18

onthebeach there was another interesting topic buried in the article I linked to in the post that followed that one https://archive.is/ccDaI#selection-1963.101-1963.244

"The WSU article did not find that the officers studied were free of subconscious racial bias — far from it. In fact, fully 96 percent were more likely to associate images of weapons with black faces on the Harvard University Implicit Association Test."

I can't see any references for that claim but one of the more significant reports on implicit bias using the Harvard test was McConnell & Leibold (2001)

I've not dug through it enough yet but there are some strong arguments that the test is not doing what it's proponents think it is, doing more to test for in group/out group preference rather racial bias. I've also heard claims that the finding regarding a high level of implicit bias against blacks were actually reversed.

A few links covering problems with the implicit bias test which appears to be behind a lot of the claims about police bias against blacks in the US.
- http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/reassessingpredictivevalidityoftheiat.pdf
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice
- http://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/07-08/psychometric.aspx

R0bert

Thank you.

"If we’re going to have a 'Lives Matter' anti-police movement, it would be more appropriately named 'White and Hispanic Lives Matter,' said Mac Donald in her Hillsdale speech"

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

Otb,

"A hysterical member of the public, someone very much like yourself maybe, reported a gun offence."

Pfft....here are a few examples from the US.

"'It's not illegal to be black': Cops complain online about white people getting 'freaked out' by their black neighbors and wasting police time with 911 calls.

One officer was called to investigate two black people jump-starting a car.

Another cop was dispatched to confront a black man fishing in a pond.

Woman dialed 911 after seeing 'mean-looking Middle Easterner' on street.

"‘So I'm working last week and get dispatched to a call of 'Suspicious Activity.' Ya'll wanna know what the suspicious activity was? Someone walking around in the dark with a flashlight and crow bar? Nope. Someone walking into a bank with a full face mask on? Nope.

‘It was two black males who were jump starting a car at 930 in the morning. That was it. Nothing else. Someone called it in. People. People. People. If you're going to be a racist, stereotypical jerk... keep it to yourself.’"

"A former 911 dispatcher called Nursehokiehi said that lots of people rang in to report a ‘suspicious person’ and when asked for clarification as to what was suspicious about the individual, ‘most would mumble, stumble or even whisper “umm, he’s/she’s black” or “Muslim-looking”’.

Nursehokiehi added: '[replying] "Ma'am, it's not illegal to be black (or Muslim, or Mexican, etc)... " usually worked.'"

"Other racist complaints aired on the thread include a lady who called the police because a black man was sitting in a truck opposite her house, a woman in a college town who reported a ‘middle easterner’ strolling along looking ‘mean’"

"....‘We frequently get calls about black men and women and kids, yes kids, walking. Like WWB [Walking While Black] was actually a crime and not a Twitter joke.'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3071957/It-s-not-illegal-black-Cops-complain-online-white-people-getting-freaked-black-neighbors-wasting-police-time-911-calls.html#ixzz4FH61ycS