Dear Poirot,

You indicated you felt 'nothing has been solved on this thread.', but if you find to time to do so it is worth returning to the first 50 or so posts. I understand it might be a little difficult to see past some of the current recalcitrants but to me a rather ugly tone has definitely changed for the better and you have played a considerable part in making that happen.

Dear Danielle,

You are going to have to forgive me for not getting to all of your questions. I am attempting to give decent replies but if after a thousand words I haven't managed to address everything you have put to me then that is just how it is I'm afraid.

To the question of me being a Muslim or being directly related to Muslims of the Middle East. If you were to ask me directly then I would be more than happy to provide you a fulsome answer. I think it is a little disingenuous of you to be insinuating that I am ducking the question when it is being put to me by someone I have repeatedly and clearly indicated I deem not to be worth the effort.

As to Mr Kern what I am surmising is, given both his over-hyped anti-Islamic pronouncements and his overly enthusiastic support for the actions of Israel, that on the balance of probabilities he is likely to be Jewish, but admittedly I currently can't find an answer either way. Do you consider it to be an unreasonable guess on my behalf? And yes I would be less critical and more understanding of him adopting his position if it turned out to indeed be the case.

Being well past midnight I will have to attend to the other matters you have raised later. Just as an aside I note antagonism is again entering into the tone of your replies. If you are getting frustrated and would prefer a slanging match or disengagement I would totally understand, just let me know, until then I will press on as I have been.

Dear Csteele,

I don't think we are achieving anything on this thread; either we are misunderstanding each other's position, or discussing at cross-purposes. This will be my last posting on this thread.

I have no problems with Islam. I do have grave problems, however, with the way it is presented and practiced in the Middle East, particularly at state level. It can't be denied it is moored in the middle ages.

This is an example that never should have happened.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

Many Muslims – I have mentioned three - see the problems and advocate that Islam be reformed in accordance with the 21st century. Is this so bad?

Ironically, it is in the West that Muslims can, and are able to, live this way. Indeed this is the reason many have migrated. Agreed?

I only wish the voices of Islamic reformers be heard, respected and supported not only be fellow Muslims, but also, and very importantly, by the wider society.

Such reformers need to be heard above the din of radical Muslims; such as the British imam who wishes to see the crescent flag flying over both Downing St and Buckingham Palace. These are the people who do untold damage to Islamand not the joe blow who vents

A hard slog this morning
http://www.smh.com.au/national/terrorist-cell-may-still-be-active-20121006-2763c.html
No not the link.
It could have been one of ten, twenty if I had searched.
Not the daily surf in to the papers.
After my usual look at the weather radar, hoping for rain, goggle news, quick browse at UK NZ USA, and Canada English.
Nine MSN, 7 NEWS SITE, ABC end [no locals today] Sydney Herald.
So why the struggle?
Well not the reading, waters fine, enjoy with the BS warning turned on, the updates.
But over night I have tossed and turned.
A good thing for any one CLAIMING TO BE INFORMED.
Why have so very few, stood so very firmly AGAINST ANY CONCERNS we hold about this subject.
On both sides of this debate, yes both sides, I have seen blind racism, uninformed comment, and a special blindness, even a refusal to look at links answer questions.
I this morning found a foundation stone.
A reason why we can not expect to avoid a day of horror.
Nigeria, no small country.
Its door to door MURDERS of students.
Do my detractors know why those kids died? do they care?
They murdered in their homes, died because the murderers want to warn no western influences will be tolerated!
A hatred of? western influences! a chance to? free people from a faith of hate and intolerance.
I rest my case.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/indonesias-jihad-factories-uncovering-nurseries-of-terrorisms-next-generation-20121006-275wh.html

Well there is another one, which makes my point about the problems
of Islam. One of the teachers mentions that there are over 60
verses in the Koran about Jihad, should they delete those verses?

So they keep pushing out new graduates, year after year. That is
why Islam is not just like any other religion. Csteele ignores all
this. No, he is not a muslim, simply confused.

Hi Poirot,

At last ! A stance ! Well, sort of: "First of all, my premise on this thread was not to take sides."

i.e. 'I refuse to take a stance on such crucial issues.'

And why not ? Because " .... it was always that humans are bickering, tribal, territorial beings who are one of the few species that practice intra-specific savagery."

So it's all much the same, one side or the other ? Serbia vs Bosnia and Kosovo ? Bali bombers vs victims ? What, if you'll forgive me - Nazis and Jews ?

And there I was, thinking that the aim wasn't just to - world-weary - observe the nasty world, but to try to find ways to change it for the better.

Sorry, Poirot, I think you may find that, regardless of your best efforts, there are not going to be any neutrals in the long, long struggle between hard-fought Enlightenment values, with all their wrinkles, and reactionary, pre-medieval values.

So where does feminism fit in, in that schema ? With reaction ? I hardly think so. Is feminism 'neutral', 'doesn't take sides', in the battle for equal rights for women in Islamic societies, and respect for the rule of law, equally ?

I think you know the answer to that one.

Loudmouth,

Where did I state that "...it's all much the same one side or the other..."?

I stated no such thing.

I did say that humans are bickering, tribal and territorial.

Which "Enlightenment values" gave the green light for imperial powers to subjugate Arab lands and peoples - (that includes women)?

Or is it okay for whole peoples to walk five paces behind with eyes cast down deferring to their more "Enlightened" brethren?

(I'd appreciate it if you'd resist constructing a strawman resting on my last two questions. I do not endorse radical Islam)