Dear Csteele,

The Jewish matter to which you refer is internal, the concessions to Islam in England are widespread – least of, all media self-censorship

You write:

“...one mother having to spend considerable time and money to become a Catholic in order to get her child enrolled in a private school of her choice. “

I am sorry, but this is utterly inaccurate. Catholic and non-Catholic schools (including top ranking) have children from other religions. Also, converting to Catholicism does not entail any expense, unless you are referring to a bible, catechism and missal, perhaps a couple of instruction booklets.

Being a Catholic does not automatically make one's child Catholic. To be Catholic, all children (or converts), whether their parents are Catholic or not, have to be baptised in the Catholic church.

Yes, your friend would have had to spend considerable time studying with a priest. It also appears that he also was wasting his time (being taken for a ride).

I asked you for names of Islamic intellectuals, thinkers and others who oppose Islamic fundamentalism. You would have us think there were none. However ...

Sayyid Al-Qemany is an opponent of Islamic fundamentalism, supporting separation of religion and state, and tolerance. Awarded Egyptian Culture Ministry's 2009 prize for achievement in the social sciences resulted in the demand for its withdrawal. A fatwa was issued against him “"which are tantamount to incitement to murder" and accused him of "deconstructing Islam using eloquent sugar-coated attacks [...] more fatal than Salman Rushdie" http://globalvoicesonline.org/2009/07/15/egypt-the-egyptian-apostate

Farag Foda, a human rights activist, was also critical of fundamentalist Islam. He was murdered, and other bystanders seriously injured by Islamic fundamentalists.

Muhammad Sa'id al-'Ashmawi "one of the most influential liberal Islamic thinkers today," who "has had to rely on round-the-clock police protection due to death threats from Egyptian militants."
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/176114?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101286365567

And … there are many other Islamic liberal thinkers and intellectuals (and supporters), of whom most live abroad. Where is the support of these people from those like yourself?

cont ...

I sadly conclude that if you had witnessed a period of Western Enlightenment, also a period of witch-burning, you would have brought similar arguments against the former, whilst giving tacit approval to the latter.

I would suggest that you read the following two works by Wayne Cristuado, an Australian philosopher and academic.

"Religion, Redemption and Revolution: The New Speech Thinking Revolution ..."

Cristuado offers a‘new speech thinking’ paradigm against the radical liberalism that has dominated social theory for the last fifty years.

"Power, Love and Evil: Contribution to a Philosophy of the Damaged"

“... Thus has tolerance itself become a phantasm in the West, a phantasm which disarms its followers against intolerance [of evil].’ (P.79)

perhaps also ...

"The Betrayal of Liberalism: How the Disciples of Freedom and Equality Helped to Foster the Illiberal Politics of Coercion and Control." (Hilton Kramer and Roger Kimball, eds)

Yes, C. Steele, Moshe Gutnick's case was internal to a Jewish organisation, nothing very unusual about that:

"Rabbi Moshe Gutnick does not have life-long security of tenure at Sydney’s Mizrachi Synagogue…....

"The London Beth Din has handed down its long-awaited decision stating that the synagogue must not be sold to satisfy a redundancy claim by its rabbi who has served the congregation for 21 years.

"Working on the figures given to it by the synagogue as to a managable amount which would ensure the continuation of the kehillah, the Beth Din has ordered the payment of $200,000 when the Rabbi officially leaves the congregation....."

You cited that URL, so you can't really complain that I've quoted it out of context :)

Clearly, this has nothing to do with the State, and quite properly - certainly here in Australia - the State has stayed out of this matter. It is not a bending of the law to favour Jews, as you must know recognition of Shari'a would be to favour Islamic dogma.

As well, you surely must know that one does not have to be Catholic to be enrolled in a Catholic-run school. One does not have, probably has never had, to be of a particualr religion to enrol in a religious school. My mum, an atheist (well, Callathumpian by religion) enrolled at a St Joey's school in inner Sydney in the thirties. I tutored a Sudanese kid at a Greek Orthodox school a few years back - he spoke Dinka, Arabic (from years in an Egyptian camp), English and passable Greek. Perhaps a couple of other languages too. There were many Sudanese and other Africans at that school, as well as Asians and a couple of Aboriginal kids and none of them had to be Greek Orthodox.

But in Muslim schools?

No, I don't fully support the notion of Church-run and State-funded schools either, as an atheist. But as long as they stick to the State-designed curriculum - in other words, the kids are getting the same education, more or less, as other kids - that's okay with me.

Joe

Belly: jayb you will not find poirot to be a Muslim.
I find it strange, the tight bond in this case between csteele and poirot. But doubt csteele is Muslim.

Maybe so. But I'm sure they can say so themselves. I'd like to look at csteels websites. She hasn't posted link, so I can't. Just interested in what she is about, that's all. Maybe she's a nice lady. I don't know. There is an anger in there that's eating her heart. That's just so sad.

Csteele,

“How this nation has acted toward Jewish people and their religion is vitally relevant to the question of how we treat Muslims and their religion.”

Why? We have had Muslims in this country as long as we have had Jews. Neither groups made waves. We also have other non-Christian religions. Does how we act towards Sikhs relevant to how we treat Muslims?

you state:

“Now I don't know what Mr Kern's origin or religion are though I suspect he may be Jewish, not only because he studied for a time at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem but because of the tone of his writings. Do you think it is important that we know? I do because it would help us determine his agenda.”
http://soerenkern.com

That is quite a leap you have made … Also, you intimate that if he were Jewish, he would be anti-Islamic. That does not naturally follow. Perhaps what does follow is that he is writing about terrorism, and if Islam tends to be prominent at the moment, it is not really surprising, is it...?

But then again, you asked me on another thread if I were Jewish.

I thought that quite rude …

But, then again, you haven't responded to the question whether you are Muslim.

Personally, I don't know, and don't really care … (many Muslims - unlike yourself - are intolerant of the Middle Eastern brand of Islam). However, you are not rational, and so emotional and defensive about Islam … I would hazard a guess … and I don't really care, nor do I want an answer … that you are closely related to Muslims of the Middle East.

First of all, my premise on this thread was not to take sides. It was always that humans are bickering, tribal, territorial beings who are one of the few species that practice intra-specific savagery. I still see no sign of any useful dialogue in this debate that takes us beyond that fact. I see that behaviour in the Bali bombings, 9/11, the Iraq invasion, Syria, Yugoslavia, the pounding of Gaza - it's everywhere sometime or other. That's all I was saying, and for that I've been pasted with all sorts of accusations.....

Loudmouth,

You say things like -
"Once upon a time women had the temerity to push for equal rights - they call themselves feminists but..."blah, blah...

Your pronouncements on the feminist cause come across as noble and altruistic...right up until you say things like "Have you tried Milk of Magnesia, sweetie?"

"sweetie"....

I'm sure it won't surprise you that I find you only employ your feminist leanings when it suits your argument, because that sort of patronising tripe above spoken to a women surely does not add up to a respectful dialogue. Perhaps respectful dialogue with women is only something that's has reality for you in theory.

You troll, you taunt, you are patronsidng. I don't believe you've sent a post my way in a long time that didn't contain some sort of underlying insult. How does that sit with your so-called respect for women? I don't expect any special treatment on this forum because I'm a woman, but then I find it difficult to imagine you would refer to one of the blokes here as "sweetie" in an attempt to put them in their place...you did it to me simply because I'm a woman.

Truly, I find it fascinating that you criticize me for not defending "my sisters" and yet you pull the old patronising macho trick out of the hat when it suits you.