Dear Paul,

You asked me some heavy questions which I will not be able to answer fully within this time and space, but I will try to answer briefly:

Every church may and does fail to serve God alone at this time or another. We do hope to maximize the times when we serve God and minimize the time we don't.

Iran/Jamestown? If people follow religion, if they are close to God, then what do they need a state for? Only the selfish, the evil control-freak, the ignorant and the irresponsible need a state to restrain them. States are based on fear, but when one follows God what is there to fear of?

God isn't a power-seeking dictator which approves or disapproves of what we do (and none of what we do affects Him anyway). Also, you cannot "communicate" with God, because for communication to take place you need at least two parties, whereas in essence you and God are not separate. To know God, you should listen within.

There are no fixed, mechanical rules to tell us what specific acts may bring us closer to God and what acts take us further away: much depends on personal circumstances and spiritual evolution, but over the ages there were sages who collected statistical observations on what works for the "average person" under the "average circumstances", so if unsure, if you know not otherwise by what Christians for example call the Holy Spirit, if you don't have an unshakable inner conviction that you should do something different, then it is a good idea to listen to their teachings and wisdom, it's better than having to repeat all the experimentation yourself.

I can certainly see circumstances when two homosexual men bringing up a child in a loving family environment are doing a religious act. That doesn't mean however, that I should start a church that preaches homosexuality based on their example.

Are Christians misguided? Yes and no. The Christian teachings on how to live are good for most people under most circumstances. It is misguided however to believe that one size fits all.

Interesting aside there - I don't think 'National Socialism' was an appropriate comparison at all though, it being inherently nationalist. 'Socialism' can cover a multitude of sins though... much as religion.

The danger is in the culture of following rather than making up your own mind from evidence. Whoever you follow you run the risk of being led astray. It may be that 'it's a good idea to listen to their teachings and wisdom' but that isn't necessarily 'better than having to repeat all the experimentation yourself.' I think your argument is verging on the contradictory here, Yuyutsu. SOME at least of the experimentation will always need reviewing in the light of changing circumstances and challenges. As you say, there's no universal formula.

If I were god, for the sake of the argument, I'd probably enjoy the company of people who pushed the limits of science and discovery, agonised over the possible consequences of political actions and tried to find imaginative ways to make a better world more tangible. Isn't this the point of the human story? Growing out of Eden must be inevitable for us to 'be as god' - unfortunately the state would seem to pushing against human development in favour of mindless materialism. Any true religion must strive for better.

Paul like me, inhabits the left side of the fence.
I graze near the middle, afraid of the other side of the paddock.
Paul is on the very far left side, lonely but apparently likes the view.
In defense of Paul, surely, he emerging from the meeting hall of his fellows, one of those old red phone boxes.
He saw the word Socialism, and sprang mop in hand to its defense.
Paul I do hope, you did not intend to say NAZI, [National Socialism, is other than evil.
Question,take England out of the thread.
If today, an Australian business, not being Muslim or Jewish, any set faith.
Stopped ANY ONE wearing the Christian Cross at work.
Would other than those off us willing to defend ANYONES rights be offended and act

From the beginning I said its not a couple of old ladies wearing a cross around their necks that is the problem, that kind of thing is totally unimportant, they are followers not leaders. The real problem lies in those with a religious belief claiming legitimacy from god, the belief in his existence is a very big assumption in the first place. These religious use the so called 'word of god' to impose controls and restraints on society in general The religious continually try and dictate what is right and what is wrong, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. My prime example that we can all relate to in Australia, is America, where the religious have control of the political will of the country. A society that believes god is on their side, believes they can do no wrong, such a society is a very dangerous society.
"Paul like me, inhabits the left side of the fence." Belly when did you jump the fence?
"Paul I do hope, you did not intend to say NAZI, [National Socialism), is other than evil". Belly I chose national socialism to show how absurd that line of argument is "religion is okay, just the people got in the way." That kind of logic could be applied to anything you like. The Manson cult was okay, just a few individuals messed it up, stupid logic on my part.
Belly on another note looking forward to your vigorous defense of the ALP after next weeks Queensland state election when it will be a another case of "Oh! what went wrong." p/s Couldn't use that old red phone box (do like the colour) of yours the NSW ALP were holding a caucus meeting in it.

not-in/commerce..quote..""If I were god,
for the sake of the argument,

I'd probably enjoy the company of people
who pushed the limits of science and discovery,
agonised over the possible consequences of political actions and tried to find imaginative ways to make a better world more tangible.""

that is certainly
what many would think god is doing
[its a shame that its more simple...than that]

lets not overly complicate god..[wholly spirit]
think of the word atonement..[at one meant]

god life sustaining spirit
lives withion each living thing
god communes not only with the great
direct[one to one]..but equally the least

being the living spirit
that sustains all living[from within..that ye do to the least..ye do to him]

''Isn't this the point of the human story?""

what?...;that the foolish
confound the wise[in their own eyes]

the joke is that there are those teaching about god
who dont know..he lives within..[his key sign is life/love/logic light]..where they are he art

""Growing out of Ede.. must be inevitable
for us to 'be as god'""

returning back into it is the promise

'''unfortunately the stat.. would seem to pushing against human development..in favour of mindless materialism.""

lol
so too the materialist's churches
lol..to many messengers...[not their..message re god]

""Any true religion must strive for better.""

yes if ceaser..can get what is his
why cant..the long suffering omnipresent good..*god

I used to have arguments with christians about stuff like this, but i'd be quite happy to take on god too if you can give me his number.

If he lives within me that's a problem 'cos it makes me some sort of transexual which apparently isn't in his image, so they tell me. Also too many internal dialogues get you the wrong kind of attention from the psychiatric profession. Forgive me for a certain degree of flippancy, but I'm having enough trouble getting my own garden sorted - hardly even have time to listen to Joni Mitchell these days.