Actually that's not true, Belly. Most of my family are christians and don't display a cross precisely because it is a symbol of pagan origin. It's also a bit perverse, surely? However I have no problem with perversity.

On a more serious point, Yuyutsu, there is widespread systematic blacklisting of union activists in the UK contruction industry. This is illegal on paper and not widely publicised, even by union bosses. The firms involved are big, eg Balfour Beatty, and frequently used for big government contract work. This is known as corruption and you seem to be supporting it. Get real!

Dear Farfromtheland,

I was discussing the rights of individuals to refrain from employing another which they don't want to employ, for whatever reason, stupid as it may be, or even for no reason at all, ASSUMING THAT THEIR BUSINESS IS TOTALLY PRIVATE.

When government contracts are involved, then obviously the business is no longer private.

Farfromtheland, as my words above said I am an ex union official.
It has not been very long from those days, and a construction one, in Australia's greatest union.
Not therefore the CFMEU.
We can, if we wish, waffle on about that, but it is not the subject.
IF you truly think paganism, is in any way in the mind of most people confronted with the cross you miss lead your self.
Feeble, indeed to even think Christians even know about the link, if one exists.
I have read extensively ,and know, ALL FAITHS come down from paganism, or science fiction authors.
But, WHY.
At each point in this decision did people oppose or not support wearing the Christian cross?
I could list a hundred things that if denied to those who want them, would start riots.
WHY a harmless sign of belief.

Thanks, Yuyutsu, glad to hear that1

Well Belly, now we're getting to the crux of the matter (forgive the pun...)

My christian family have a lot to say about icons, of which the cross is a prime example. I'll try to summarize their arguments.

The teachings of Jesus were subversive of the status quo, but eventually were adopted to some extent by the Roman civilisation (after the empire had begun to decline) and this is when the cross replaced the fish as a symbol of identification. Christmas (Saturnalia) was definitely a pagan festival, and there is no evidence that Jesus was born at this time of year, or that he asked for his birth to be commemorated as a festival, particularly with giving of gifts, trees, santa and so on. The point of christianity was the the manner of Jesus' persecution and eventual death. Therefore there is a much better case for commemorating Easter - without the eggs and the bunny and all that, which are also pagan features.

Christmas and the cross were grafted onto the christian philosophy by the Catholic church, a part of the establishment. Much of what has become traditional has little to do with Jesus and much more to do with conformity and commercialism - a trivialisation of the issues, in my opinion. Jesus ejected the moneylenders from the temple. The Catholics didn't and don't. Jesus argued for a separation of church and state - 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesars', to paraphrase. It is ironic in the extreme that the symbols have become more of an issue than the practice of a genuine phiosophy with regard to all kinds of religion - eg wearing of the hijab OR the cross are seen as more important than exercising tolerance and compassion.

I believe concentrating on the symbols is contradictory to the practice of religion - it is idolatry. All Abrahamic religions condemn idolatry. The celebration of Christmas is rife with it. By all means wear a cross, but don't imagine that this in itself makes you a christian.

Farfromtheland I thank you, and know what you say is true.
Christmas is indeed a pagan time, the Celebration at this time is just a continuation.
And we share the ideas on how we came to have at least 3 Gods, from the one source.
Further how Control came for some, power as well, by those believers.
Christmas, modern , rides too in the hearts and minds of those who build it to sell us stuff.
However, if Christians, who do not share our views.
Who do not know or care about Paganism and its links to the Cross.
Took to wearing the Fish Symbol around their necks.
It too would have faced this ban would it not?
WHY?
Would that impact on your view?

[salty]seaman..[farfromtheland]..quote:""The point of christianity was the the manner of Jesus' persecution and eventual death.""

yes his return and SURVIVAL..indicatye[refute]..judgment and reserction days

""Therefore there is a much better case for commemorating Easter - without the eggs and the bunny and all that, which are also pagan features.""

sure its a good point
his birth [promise]..isnt as important
as what his death resolved[works]...

""Christmas and the cross..*were grafted onto the christian philosophy..by the Catholic church,..a part of the establishment.""

i blame paul[saul;s revisionisms
after the actual witness testiment's

""Jesus ejected the moneylenders..from the temple.
The Catholics didn't and don't.""

to be fair very few do
[in any belief]

""Jesus argued..for a separation of church and state
'Give unto Caesar..what is Caesars',..to paraphrase.""'

and give to god
that which is gods
[good unto other]..for the life sustaining good
within all life..sustaining their living...[you shall call him emmaunuel[god with[in]..us[all]

""It is ironic..in the extreme
that the symbols...ruites/tythes..and 'just wars'

""have become..more of an issue
than the practice of a genuine philosophy...
with regard to all kinds of religion""...

yes
ahhhhh men

""hijab OR the cross..are seen as more important
than exercising tolerance and compassion.""..service and charity

""concentrating..on the symbols
is contradictory to the practice of religion..it is idolatry"".

yes but so too having priests/churches
but imagry..is clearly not allowed...[they honour..his laws with their blapheming/money changer lore

its all just so impure/..unclean

""All Abrahamic religions condemn idolatry.""

there is one good [god]
who made all of nature..to love god..love his creation
not the stools of fools..:..imagry/rite/ritual/tythe/self agrandisments

""The celebration of Christmas is rife with it.""
so is the sabbath day..in this 24/7..work to pay tax cycle

'"By all means..wear a cross,
but don't imagine""..[for even one second].."""that this
in itself..makes you a christian....""

let me add in that prayers
only for self..aint prayer

charity to your own
aint charity