With all this contradiction and lack of agreement from the believers themselves, no wonder the vast majority of devotees, like sheep, go along with whatever 'the holy father says'. Its so much more simpler to let the 'holy father' do your thinking for you, after all he does have a direct line to god.
OUG what is this about 26th December 3012 Satan's release date. I can tell you if he is banged up in NSW, with good behavior, he'll be out, by my calculations, about tea time today.

Well it did get a very long way from the threads intent.
But I got something else out of it.
Paul 1405, it was you who gave me that something.
I had always seen you as a relic of days long gone, maybe no older than me, maybe younger.
But stuck firmly in a distant past,the lights on the hill past.
You time and again take to me as class traitor for being the new left, the centrist I proudly am,within the not Conservative left.
I just can not except that old left, its refusal to admit defeat,to evolves to see the lights on that hill shone on hunger and hardship long gone.
That hill has the second home of a working class person on it now, he/she may vote green but Liberal is more likely.
Mate,not once but many times you quote NAZI.
And your hate for religion spills on the thread.
I dislike them both, those who came before you and me may not have, NAZI yes but I feel more comfortable under your verbal whip, after seeing your posts here.

Belly: Hate is is very strong word, I don't hate anyone. I dislike the actions at times of individuals and at times organizations, but I don't hate as such. Hate clouds ones judgement.
As for your references to National Socialism (NAZI). Are you implying I'm pro NAZI? If you are then you are dead wrong! Show me anywhere a post by me that is pro NAZI. if you are taking my post where I substituted the words 'national socialism' for the word 'religion' on quoting another posters own words. then if you are to take that as being pro NAZI then it shows a simple lack of understanding on your part of the conceptual argument I was mounting.
The rise of National Socialism in Germany in the 1920's and 30's came out of the conservative labour movement not the progressive movement of the time.
Again, don't throw stones unless you are equated with the facts.

Dear Paul,

As I wrote earlier, there is no precise/mechanical rule as to what act is religious and what isn't. Though there is an average (which sages, scriptures and organized religious organizations try to teach), there is also plenty of deviation and waging war is no exception. It all depends on the circumstances and on the spiritual development of the doer. It may even vary from one time to another, even for the same person.

In my own estimate, the good done by Christianity outweighs the bad, but that of course is a quantitative observation, not a qualitative argument. Most Christians in my estimate, the silent majority, benefit religiously from belonging to their church, but a minority of them actually lose from it spiritually. The ratios also vary from one denomination to another.

Obviously when we discuss good and bad, we must have an agreement about those. For me, what brings one closer to God (i.e. what is religious) is good and what takes one away from God is bad. Naturally if you replaced this definition with one based on material values, then that would change the numbers. Religious orders, however, should not be measured by worldly achievements: that's not what they are for - or else they have no right to call themselves a 'religion'.

Dear Farfromtheland,

There are a myriad of reasons why one may want to follow someone else's religion. These include ignorance, desire to be accepted, convenience, arrogance, envy, timidity, etc. etc.

I take back the word 'ignorance' and replace it with "confusing between religious-organizations and religion". Perhaps I should also replace 'natural' with 'spontaneous', meaning that religion occurs in nature without necessarily having to call it a name, belong to an organization or undergo an official initiation ceremony.

Yuyutsu,

I understand where you are coming from. Your notion of religion, for want of a better word, the concept of inner spirituality being a persons religion. Taking on a couple of points you made.
"Obviously when we discuss good and bad, we must have an agreement about those. For me, what brings one closer to God (i.e. what is religious) is good and what takes one away from God is bad."
For the vast majority of us something like helping a little old lady across the road would be taken as a good act, therefore bring one closer to god. Performing euthanasia on the same little old lady because she requested it due to her pain and suffering caused by terminal cancer. This is not so clear cut as being a good or bad act, this is where argument leads to division within society. The religious will promote their idea and try to make that idea the accepted social norm. Using everything at their disposal, from the word of god, to the fires of hell to get their belief imposed on all. this is what I can not accept.
"the good done by Christianity outweighs the bad" I do not agree, based of past history. yes, there has been some good come out of christianity, mainly instigated by individuals and their few followers. Some are good, some are misguided and many have been out-rightly bad.
"Most Christians in my estimate, the silent majority, benefit religiously from belonging to their church," conjecture who knows what benefits the silent anything. I will agree ignorance can be a benefit to some, there being no need to think, no need to question, no need to make personal decisions, the 'holy father' does it all for me. My reference to the 'holy father' is not to be confused with the bloke in Rome, there are many 'holy fathers' he is just but one.

http://www.google.com/search?q=religion+for+athiests+big+idea
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/can-atheists-learn-from-religion3f/3869242

What can religion offer to the non believer?

Can it provide instruction on how to live a better life,
be a better person, to help create communities,
better appreciate art, be kinder,

and get more out of
religeons 'good ideas'
without the god

? Alain de Botton thinks so
and he talks about his new book

*Religion for Atheists.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/big-ideas-3rd-march-2012/3869204