Dear Farfromtheleand,

"The danger is in the culture of following rather than making up your own mind from evidence. Whoever you follow you run the risk of being led astray. It may be that 'it's a good idea to listen to their teachings and wisdom' but that isn't necessarily 'better than having to repeat all the experimentation yourself.' I think your argument is verging on the contradictory here, Yuyutsu. SOME at least of the experimentation will always need reviewing in the light of changing circumstances and challenges. As you say, there's no universal formula"

I agree. There's a time to experiment and a time to follow. It's proper to sample the ancient experiments, but there's simply not enough time and opportunity in a lifetime for everyone to repeat all the 1000's of years worth of experimentation.

"If I were god, for the sake of the argument,"

Actually you ARE God. There's nothing but God!

"I'd probably enjoy the company of people who pushed the limits of science and discovery, agonised over the possible consequences of political actions and tried to find imaginative ways to make a better world more tangible. Isn't this the point of the human story?"

...and then go complaining that God was created in the image of man... You assume that the world has an objective, that it's not already the best it can be, and that humanity has a point. I don't accept either of those premises -the world is a workshop where we learn and grow, it has no long-term purpose by itself.

"unfortunately the state would seem to pushing against human development in favour of mindless materialism."

Let alone human development, the real danger is that the state stifles spiritual development.

"Any true religion must strive for better."

Religion should only be concerned with the betterment of the world insofar as it's used as a technique for coming closer to God. The object of religion is God, not a better world. While bettering the world may be used as a technique to combat selfishness, it's a grave mistake to consider it an independent goal.

Belly my post was in support of the cross wearers. They are the innocent made to pay at the hands of those with power. I see no good purpose being served in attacking a couple of benign members of the ideology. As a society I'm saying we are quick to attack the innocent from the perceived evil doers, they tend to be a soft target. Afterwards we justify our actions.
I no longer use the terminology of right and left, to simplistic, I much prefer the terms progressive and conservative, with no person being totally progressive or totally conservative. A person overall may generally be seen as one or the other, but it comes down to the individuals particular stance on a particular issue.

I am not God, Yuyutsu. Part of godness maybe. We were talking of christian notions of god, hence my tongue in cheek reference to cross-sexuality if god was 'inside me'. And I wasn't assuming anything - I said 'for the sake of the argument.' It's a good argument though and I'd like to continue it.

You have a different view of god. I find your assertions odd in a couple of ways - while I may or may not have godness I am human, and interested in the human story. I don't presume the world has an objective. This doesn't mean I can't be critical of the way it works from a human perspective. And I think you too are broadly against 'mindless materialism'? A true religion I think must also be against this. How then can genuine religion avoid 'betterment' of the world in this respect? If it's 'a workshop where we learn and grow' (I like this idea) then let's try to make it more learning and growth orientated. Human and spiritual development are intimately related.

I don't think the 'object' of religion can be God - that would imply we are separated from god wouldn't it? (The subject of religion is god, semantically speaking.) I think the biggest danger at present is that the state tends to stifle educational development. This is bad workshop practice!

As for combatting selfishness I don't know. I think suppression of ego carries a degree of peril. Ego is the bit of us that motivates. Without it we might contemplate a lot but are unlikely to create much.
We might not destroy much either, but there are plenty of people willing and able to do that. 'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing.'

For the sake of the argument do you intervene in human situations? Where someone is being abused do you try to stop it? I rather hope so! This is not altruism but practical solidarity (or progress if you prefer, Paul) and without that we are poor miserable beings.

pirate/quote..live in me..''a problem 'cos it makes me some sort of transexual which apparently..isn't in his image""

god is beyond sex
but as she sustains all sex's
a transsexual identity must..like any other be visulaising an illusion

god is all
in all...[all life/living..not just one]

""too many internal dialogues
get you the wrong kind of attention..from the psychiatric profession.""

if none but a few nutters can do this
you dont know what your missing

""while I may or may not have godness
I am human,and interested in the human story.

I don't presume the world has an objective.''

yes think of it likegod trying to define himself

asa much as she tries
at her best she is like a human
at worst..[dont go there]

I have enjoyed the thread and every post under my last.
Farfromtheland I am a complex person, an ex born again Christian, and ex Communist/Socialist, in turn.
In all three I looked for the best in man, and a better world.
I found some individuals carried those flags but not the group/organizations.
I can think back to true hardship, hunger and hopelessness in my childhood.
And taunting, no other word say it like it was, from small village Christians.
I know we once stood up for the under dogs but not all and not most in some villages.
I do, it cost me my cash my times my friendships.
But in the real and true teaching of Christianity and I believe other religions,a set of rules to live by exist.
And I live by them.
Socialism failed, it never had a chance once the name was taken by others.
It is but a rag used and thrown away by middle class greens today.
I will till I die stand for the under dog, my Union and my party with pride.
And take the whip to each if I think its needed.
No one will stop me wearing shirts I paid for expressing my pride in them all.
And no one should stop a Christian wearing a Cross.
If my sin is understanding the true very left will never be other than harmful to Labor then so be it.
In the end voters do not want them.

Dear Farfromtheland,

Does God intervene in human situations? Where someone is being abused does God try to stop it?

Some view God as passive. I don't take the Judeo-Christian approach of God acting in person in the world almost as if He had a body: God is not a person, but God's will is done by nature and what it includes, including humans.

Even when you have an ego you do God's work. From divine perspective nothing hinders God's work, but from your small perspective as human, the ego acts like thick gloves and heavily distorting glasses, so whatever good things you try to do come out clumsy and often even reversed (ditto for the national ego, hence the state). People who are closer to God are not necessarily passive or unenergetic, but whatever they do without an ego is more effective. Solidarity too is a very crude instrument and is not necessary for carrying God's will. Those who are closer to God do His work without attachment, but much more effectively.

Religion operates by removing the veils (such as the ego) that delude us as if we were separate from God.

Materialism is one such veil or obstacle, mindless or otherwise. Humans tend to believe that their mind is a great tool, that it works for the better, but they confuse between the mind and the brain and between intelligence and wisdom - the mind is intelligent, but unwise. The mind reminds us of the legend about king Midas, who had his wish fulfilled that everything he touched turned into gold, but later came to regret it: a school made of gold (or marzipan for that matter) does not serve its students very well, most of them anyway - we need all the shades of colour and grey to accommodate for the different lessons which individuals need to learn in this world. Only divine wisdom can do that.