Ahhh,
The pacifism of Ghandi:

"In their efforts to remove the British, Mahatma Ghandi and Nehru joined with the Islamist movement—until barbaric Islamic violence against Hindus occurred in Malabar but even then Gandhi downplayed it!"

http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3314:islams-jihad-against-india-16th-21st-century-part-k-in-islams-genocidal-slavery&catid=170:slavery&Itemid=59

Hmmm,
"downplaying Islamic violence";
sounds familiar.

Now Proxy... settle down mate... are you actually suggesting that the EDL who operate frequently in the 'Midlands' of UK are in fact not simply manipulated soccer hooligans, and rather have a basis for their anti Islamist stance ?

"The President confirmed today that the packages - found in Dubai and the East Midlands in Britain - had originated in Yemen and were bound for Jewish synagogues in Chicago."

and surely you would not be so 'Islamophobic'as to suggest that the targeting of Jews had anything to do with the clear pronouncement of Muhammad:

"The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews"
Sahih Muslim 41:6985

After all Proxy.. "Islam" is not on trial (in Melbourne) no no no...i'ts 'criminal activity' or course.

I suppose that some, who are cursed with the 'liberal' gene, will read passages like that hadith and 'see' "Islam is a peaceful religion"...

Hence this thread "Do our politics determine what we Perceive"?

Always a good idea to let facts speak for themselves don't you think ? :)

Dear Oto

I'm surprised that you simply 'declare' the EDL (not EPL) as 'thugs' who are 'begrudgingly on your part' "admitedly spurred on by others"

Not quite.

a) They are ATTACKED by others.. UAF every single time..and the reason is.. to cause gullible people (that would appear to include you at this stage) to perceive them as 'violent' simply because (after UAF attacks) the papers the next day simply say "Violence broke out at far right EDL protest"

You read this as "The EDL is a violent group of thugs" which is exACTLy how the UAF and the Left wing media WANT you to read it.

b) Police have demonstrated clear discrimination against pro British groups, and this is a cause of frustration.

The EDL boys HAVE carried out peaceful civil disobedience and been thumped and assaulted by the police for their trouble.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/thousands-of-muslims-rioting-in-dudley-muslim-gangs-wilding-as-edl-stages-rooftop-protest-of-monster.html

[[Assed (UAF/Muslim activist) added, “There was a real sense of urgency and anger. We made clear to the police that unless they removed the EDL there would be a riot.]]

//Prior to today’s rally, the EDL was in Aylesbury, working with the local council and police to finalize preparations. The EDL was told that they couldn’t take gear and equipment through, because “the roads were going to be closed.” They told the police they would carry the stuff, but the police would not allow them to use their generator.

They also would not allocate any parking, and in a further assault on the basic freedoms of free men, they “closed all of our meeting pubs, and I mean forced them to close.”//

Sounds like ALABAMA and MISSISIPI around CIVIL rights time.

My apologies about the EDL/EPL typo.

I don't think we can reasonably believe that the UAF are thugs and the EDL are not - to me, we're looking at the same people, different causes. If a bunch of people got off a bus in your neighbourhood, swaggering, swearing and posturing as they clearly do in the video, would you say to yourself "oh, they look like nice guys"?

What does the body language of the first person who is filmed breaking the line tell you? Everything about the video screams "thug" to me. I never said the UAF were any better, and I think your addition of "begrudgingly on your part" is an excellent example of "seeing what we want to see". It seems to me that you WANT me to see the EDL as thugs and the UAF as some sort of virtuous opponents so that you can point out how misguided I am. A question, though: why don't the EDL bring their wives and kids to their peaceful protests?

And Proxy, there are times when it is better not to acknowledge your sources. When your source is Jad Adams, who makes a living out of tabloid-style popular histories (his work on Kipling was a hoot), then he is better left unacknowledged. Nonetheless, your smearing of his name fails to justify your use of the euphemism "civil disobedience" for the EDL's activities. Dignified or not in his personal life (and I'm sure the many people in our country, senior or otherwise, who have nude massages would be surprised to see it listed as undignified behaviour), Gandhi led a civil disobedience movement far more dignified than your poor little EDL seem capable of throwing together. I suspect that if old mate Jad took a look into their personal lives, he'd find many of them equally (perhaps even more) wanting in dignity.

Oh, the humanity!

>>They also would not allocate any parking... Sounds like ALABAMA and MISSISIPI around CIVIL rights time<<

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how much you know about Alabama and Mississippi "around Civil Rights time", Boaz. But I suspect that a lack of allocated parking places would not have featured high on the list of indignities.

Comparing Dudley with, say, Selma Alabama, what do we find?

Dudley has a population of around 400,000, of which 94% are white.

Selma has a population of around 20,000, approximately 29% of whom are white.

Dudley has had a history of race rioting that goes back to 1962, when the local thugs targetted Caribbean immigrants.

Selma was the site of a peaceful protest march in 1965, when 600 civil rights activists were met by State Troopers with billy clubs and tear gas.

Somehow, I don't think the marchers were much concerned about parking their cars.

>>Police have demonstrated clear discrimination against pro British groups, and this is a cause of frustration.<<

That's what they'd like you to think. In fact, the British police force is well accustomed to dealing with football hooliganism, of which this brand of white supremacism (which at base is just a handy excuse to start a fight) is a fairly traditional offshoot.

As you well know, your saintly EDL was created by a bunch of classic soccer hooligans, the type that are mostly associated with really poor soccer clubs like Millwall, Leyton Orient and, in this case, Luton Town.

No comment on EDL/Tea Party link-up, complete with stomping?

That's so like you, Boaz.

Dear OTO

you say:

"I don't think we can reasonably believe that the UAF are thugs and the EDL are not" -

Now Oto....that is the EXACT impression the left wing media has wanted you to acquire all along. (you and every other casual reader)

This is why 'perception' and 'politics' is so crucially important.

If you trace the events of EDL rallies/protests, you will find a very definite pattern.

a) They (The EDL) are not out to cause violent confrontation.
b) The UAF are.. DEFINITELY out to cause VIOLENT confrtontation with the EDL. (Weyman Bennet and Martin Smith (both communists) who lead the UAF (which is supported even by David Cameron among others).. for "suspicion of consipiracy to commit violent disorder"

c) Here is how the Police describe the Newcastle Demo

//Chief Supt Graham Smith said: ‘It has been a great success. It has passed without incident. Newcastle is a city for peace and the aim of today was to allow peaceful protests which we have demonstrated is possible through careful planning.//

Hardly how a 'bunch of thugs' would be described no?
The careful planning referred to SHOULD include not permitting UAF counter demonstrations (attacks) on the same day in the same place.
If the UAF were NOT there.... the violence would NOT occur. (unless possibly the police breach their agreements with the EDL in an unfair manner)

Pericles... my mention of Alabama is in a broad sense where 'State Troopers' are the equivalent of the Midlands PC police who are oppressing partiotic Brits.
The head stomping ? :) classic left wing (UAF) Strategy "howl and hurl insults in the face of your opponent trying to evoke a violent reaction for the sake of tomorrows media"... surely you are awake up to this by now ? You also lecture me with regularity about not tarring a whole movement by the actions of one person... right?
As you know..I've been attacked myself... by a hard core commy woman.
Same program, different chanel.