Dear fellow OLOers.

a recent exchange between myself and another here has prompted me to investigate the issue of 'how we perceive things' in visual imagery.

Please have a look at this video and then, make your assessment of 'what' actually happened to a policeman who ends up on the ground and is eventually carried off to hospital.

There are 2 parts of this incident which we should examine.

1/ Policeman is forced to the ground (by ?)
2/ Fellow policeman turns and looks.(at?/why)

This will be most interesting, because the phrase "You only see what you want to see" comes into play here.

So..what do 'you' see ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh_pBLnoTmc

View from 2.00 on please.

All can agree on one thing.. "An officer was injured and taken to hospital"

According to one report the officer had an "injured leg" (how ?)

While the old aphorism 'seeing is believing'seems to make 'common sense' it has long since been shown to be quite flawed. Most of the research I'm aware of in the field indicates that the opposite is closer to the truth, ie, one tends to see ('perceive) what one believes or expects'.
Cambo

what do i see..?
a buss-load of nationalists..[20-30]
with flags...walking into an enclosed protest-zone..

watched over by 100 police
who stand facing the bus=load/few
with their backs to near 80 watchers

later shots show 2 dogs..used to induce fear..imply threat
reminding me of guantonimo...later more police are seen wearing black
and two on bikes..i saw a wisp of 'gas'? ..but no gas masks

then police agetaitors..[in plain clothes]..making what will be the 'media-shot'..of the day...that looks like mayhem...that excuses the calling of what seems hundreds of police..to what was clearly a bus-load..trying to make some point

there were a few signs..but appart from one having some-thing..about islamb on it..i didnt read the other few...but think they related to some union blurb..

why are we required to watch this vidio...without knowing the con-text

clearly the vid is a professional effort
posted to serve some adgenda or other

5000 vieuws indicate its getting vieuws...so someone is getting it arround...going by the comments..its some hate group...serving some elite adgenda

anyhow i seen..it
over policing...based on keeping their message...silent
a sign of things are at this time in histry
the time of fear and of subverting others adgenda's

soon..even less will dare pro-test
think of the mindsets..of those planning this..over the top policing
add in the media silence..the joke becomes clear

this war on terror
is a war on free-speech and act

interesting/revealing.. is the beginning...
where the people..walk off the buss..into the protest area
THROUGH minimal-police lines..till they are fully enclosed
ensconced on their plat-form/stage..behind bars

like..the acters they are..taking to their stage...
to get...a visual mess-age...out there

just to make....a media moment..[headline-point]
to distil/..instil..the watchers..to...fear

at least there wasnt the typical[hypnotic]..flashing lights
or the media flashes..usual in such pr

The real agenda of Islam in Democratic countries

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CA6IWnbfw&feature=related

I saw a cop trip over a dog by the looks of it?
I opened it in a video editor and sure enough, frame by frame the cop trips over the dog as he steps backward.

So are they saying the protesters did it?

Boazy you ask me to judge apples when only spuds are on the table.
It is your written word, nothing else people judge you by here.
Let me be clear, I do not dislike or like you.
Regard you as a well known old shirt,some times it fits others it is crumpled.
I had no need to take your test, did not bother.
Reality is in fact not perception, oh I know the saying, but truth is truth.
Americas Christian right,seemingly your home, is in my view war mongering and a threat to world peace.
Just as my thoughts and ideals repel you, I am convinced you follow a path that is blind to humanity, all humans not just American right.

HI all :)

well... some of you got lost in the mass of possibilities, but that's ok.

RawMustard is closest to the mark re the actual footage in contention.

Please excuse me for narrowing the focus here.. please examine the footage ONLY from about 2.01 to 3.. the following happens.

a) A policeman falls down (?)
b) Another policeman looks in his direction.

The contention is this "Was the policeman struck by a missile hurled by the crowd or.. did he trip over or get bitten by the dog"?

BELLY mate..it's not a 'test' it is a valuable example of how we perceive things. I've had quite a bit of back and forth with Pericles and he is adamant that his version took place.. I took a contrary view, but what those views are.. I'll withhold for now :)

Do you (Belly and OUG) see this?

//I opened it in a video editor and sure enough, frame by frame the cop trips over the dog as he steps backward.//

I think it must have been more than a mere trip because he was stretchered off to sick bay. The question is...'why' ?

The reason this is important is because this incident has been reported widely in the Left wing (ie mainstream) media as follows:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319113/EDL-protest-turns-violent-Policeman-injured-missiles-hurled-Leicester.html

There is pretty much only ONE "impression" you could take away from such coverage..but let's look at some carefully cobbled sentences.

"But as EDL supporters gathered today, missiles were thrown(by whom?)at police officers who held the crowd back."

//"EDL protest turns violent".... "Policeman Injured"
"Missiles hurled" Leicester.//

Missiles here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4AFJ2EPTXg&feature=player_embedded

see 1.15 and onward.

I think you may be aware, you are digging a hole for yourself here, Boaz.

>>well... some of you got lost in the mass of possibilities, but that's ok.<<

That's a clear admission that the video is not entirely self-explanatory, is it not?

>> I've had quite a bit of back and forth with Pericles and he is adamant that his version took place.<<

And that's just a straight fib.

It was you who stated categorically:

>>TRUTH. 1/ Policeman bitten by police dog!<<

I simply pointed out that the evidence you presented was consistent with the policeman in question being hit by a missile. Given the fact that the video does not show either a dog-bite, or a missile landing, calling your version "TRUTH" is completely unjustified, wouldn't you agree?

It was clear from the start that you were not going to allow viewers to see the evidence without some additional Boaz "leading the witness" assistance.

>>According to one report the officer had an "injured leg" (how ?)<<

Your attempt to point the finger at the dog also backfired though, didn't it. As RawMustard observed...

>>...sure enough, frame by frame the cop trips over the dog as he steps backward<<

Falling backwards over a dog can easily lead to a leg injury. Try it yourself sometime.

>>...it's not a 'test' it is a valuable example of how we perceive things<<

Anyone watching that footage can draw their own conclusions, obviously. Which you have amply demonstrated here.

You (and the English Defence League) want it to show the way in which the police support anti-fascist demonstrators, as they oppose a peaceful group of patriots going about their lawful business.

To me, though, it shows that, hey ho, here we go, here's yet another group of soccer hooligans wrapping themselves in the flag of St George as an excuse to pick a fight with Muslims.

Incidentally, your description of the Daily Mail as "Left wing media" would have any passing Englishman in tears of laughter. It is the UK equivalent of calling Rupert Murdoch a purveyor of communist propaganda.

Here is my nancy drew quick explaination.

I by no means claim this is the truth but the pieces fit to me.

At 2:22 one cop dodges something and moves aside, the dog behind him is too far away to bite (plus he can't see from the back of his head)

Then the cop next to him falls down (quite possibly tripped over the dog) with an injured leg.

I find it improbable that the dog bit anyone, if you take notice you will see that the dogs are being held by the collar with their front paws off of the ground, this makes it impossible for them to lunge out and bite someone.

Then at 2:27 another cop skips backwards, clutches his arm and looks ahead, suggesting that he also was hit by something.

Just because the missiles weren't large doesn't mean they weren't thrown.

The case of the dog biting a fellow cop is unlikely to me, these dogs are highly trained for high intensity situations, their actions are command based and (as you can see) the dogs are restrained.

I base this on what I see in the film.

AL,
It would appear that the dog bit him but the vision is a little difficult to decipher as at the critical moment the officer is obstructed by another.
I get what you mean, as a boy i was taught that you only believe half of what you hear and quater of what you see, but which bits to believe?
The important thing i find is to not jump to conclusions about a situation until all the facts are known.

Just a quick afterthought, Boaz.

I believe you mentioned that the EDL and the Tea Party are having discussions. Here's an example of how close they have already become.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/10/woman-stomped-outside-rand-pau.html

I looked carefully at the video, in case there was a dog that crept up and bit her, but I couldnt see one.

But it all ended well. The guy doing the stomping has asked for an apology from the lady lying on the ground.

I expect he will also sue for the damage her ears inflicted on his boot.

Dear Participants.

This is good value in my view. Pericles..I will concede that any dog "bite" is not clearly visible. Remember now.. "frame by frame in a video editor" said RawMustard... 'frame'....by 'frame'.

In RM's view the policeman 'tripped over the dog'. That much at least is very clear to me..but it looks more like the dog 'dragged' him backwards which is why he lost his balance it seems.

NicNoto...I think you have the order wrong mate..the policeman who looks around..does so 'as' his cobber goes down. It appears that the policeman 'going down' actually collides with his mate on the way..causing him to look around with a "What the" response.

I notice the dog (which you previously did NOT notice Pericles) lurching forward... and the officer going down seems to do so in harmony with the dog lurching forward (actually just after the lurch, as you would expect if it had sunk it's teeth in and pulled)

In fact the

a) Dog (=canine covert EDL sleeper operative) lurches forward and.....(grabs officers leg?)
b) Officer 'turns' subsequent to dog lurch
c) Officer is dragged back and down.
d) Other officer in collision, he looks around.

Missiles are RARELY if ever hurled by the EDL.. but OFTEN and regularly by UAF.

But.. back to the topic :) If anyone can see any missile hurled you need to point out:
i) Some person in the crowd doing a 'throwing' action.
ii)An observable chunk of something on the ground or flying through the air..

Missiles are not hard to see flying through the air, but the physical action of the police are simply not.. repeat 'not' consistent with a 'missile hit'.

Is that my politics speaking or the facts ?

Having studied the video further, I think Al could be right about the dog having bit the copper. There is actually two dogs in the clip.

The cop immediately to the left of the one that falls over jumps out of the way as if he thinks a growling dog is about to bite him. At the same instant, the cop that falls does the same and looks around at a second dog behind him. It's at that point you can't really see what the dog has done, but you see the cop begin to fall and the dog behind is either pushed back or jumps back away from the falling cop. As the cop hits the ground, the first dog appears very agitated but does not mean he bit anyone.

One thing that is clear, it was nothing to do with flying missiles or anything like that, it was clearly something to do with dogs going nuts and causing an accident. Whether anyone was bitten is impossible to tell from the video.

@ Pericles
""" I looked carefully at the video, in case there was a dog that crept up and bit her, but I couldnt see one. """

Ah Pericles, you didn't look hard enough, it's right there in front of your very eyes, you just need the right video :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiLeud-sxrM

Interesting how easy it is to manipulate people huh?
Perhaps she should apologise for shoving a sign in the senators face?
Or she could sue him for damaging her sign with his face, LOL :)

Indeed Raw

A frame by frame examination should reveal any 'flying saucers' :)

Personally...I 'want' to see the dog being the culprit because of my politics. If the facts don't substantiate that... sentimental longing won't change it.

It just so happens that the facts appear to strongly support the 'dog bite/pull' or whatever scenario.

HERE is another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJYfuzeH8k&feature=player_embedded

But in THIS (youtube) one you can see the whole encounter. The 'Searchlight/HopeNotHate' version (originally published on their web site) BEGAN from the moment Baily lashed out at the bloke who spat in his face. IMAGINE how much different that would 'come across' to the Left/UAF audience or some someone looking at their web site.

Such vile deceit and unconscionable visual fraud by Leftists/socialists is par for the course though... "the end justifies the means"

If someone did that to me (spat)... I'd try to make a citizens arrest for assault using 'reasonable restraint'.. though in Baily's defense, I can fully understand his reaction to being spat on.

This is 'lawful restraint' :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XCuc6_Umo&feature=fvw

""" A frame by frame examination should reveal any 'flying saucers' :) """

I did look, but I couldn't see any - though there were a few aliens around :)

""" This is 'lawful restraint' :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XCuc6_Umo&feature=fvw """

I'll remember not to spit on you if we ever meet LOL :)

An interesting exercise and, sadly, I cluttered my perception by reading a very little bit of background information. Not enough to be an expert, and too few sources to be assured that I am free from bias.

Here is what I saw:

1) A group of protesters gets off a bus to head to the allocated stationary protesting area. At this point, they are already using language that is confrontational and ill-suited to public places; several are also swaggering and 'posturing'.

2) The large police presence (based on several other YouTube clips, justified by the EDL's track record) stands by passively while the protesters chant "scum, scum" in their direction. The lead-up to this section has been edited out.

3) A single protester breaks the line, apparently leaving the designated area and breaking the law. He is dealt with swiftly and taken away from the protest.

EDITING GAP

4) More line breaks, including one dealt with perhaps too heavy-handedly (1:21).

5) Objects thrown, more police reaction. No further evidence of heavy-handedness.

6) Close-quarter confrontation between police and protesters, with protesters applying increasing pressure to the police barricade. As police are pushed back, further police are brought in from behind, including a dog. In the compression in the middle, a police officer falls over (trips?) and is taken away.

As for the report that an officer had a leg injury, it is entirely possible that the incident didn't take place on camera. It's hardly a blow-by-blow record of the event.

Hi Al,

Thanks for the invite- sounds like a great film festival. - just sorry I don't have time to view it right now.
However, from what I can glean, some policemen were having a Tea Party (with their dog?) when they saw a flying saucer. In the ensuing panic, one of them tripped over his dog which then either bit him or it didn't...sounds great. Is there a sequel?

Dear Al,
As you know out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and so it is not to hard to interprit what people believe, Just learn to listen.

My dear Poirot :) you can watch it actually.. you only need to alocate 3 minutes of your life to see the point. segment is 2.01 to about 3.00)

OTO.. I won't dispute any of what you said regarding the EDL action or mood.. that was not the purpose of my thread. I know they are a bit of a hard bunch.. but you should look a bit further at the big picture and see exactly how and why they formed and I assure you.. anger at the police is TOTALLY justified by citizens when police not only don't uphold the law but PROTECT those who are breaking it.

I would be very very angry in such a case. In fact..I've BEEN so..

a)I'm holding sign at the IR rally at flinders street station in 2006
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ir-laws-just-not-cricket/2006/11/30/1164777686782.html

Notice the SIGN.. it blames Howard for unfair dismissal. In the same week... 1000 workers at a car parts manufacturer lost their jobs to.... CHINA

b) Knowing this, I armed myself with a sign "BLAME CHINA...tax slavery at customs"

c) Hard core communist woman approaches me "RACIST! she says..then (Nose to nose) "I want to smash your face in" (verbatim)

d) Later, (after some very fruitful conversations with passers by) she physically attacked me. (Assault)

e) I restrained her flailing arms, and marched her to the nearest cop.
(to have her charged with assault)

f) He threatened to arrest me.

Welcome to the world of the EDL.

The Police are under orders, from politicians. Always remember that.

Where Islam goes, trouble follows.
This historical fact is ignored by the ideologically blind.
It is inevitable that groups such as the EDL resort to civil disobedience
when the political elite ignore the will of the people and pursue policies
inimical to the well-being of their country and its citizens.
The West is reaping the bitter fruits of multiculturalism.

Hi Proxy... hey.. your output has been slow this time.. hope to hear more incisive commentary from you in future.

I certainly appreciate your comments.

Where did you say you are again ? Brisbane or... can't remember.

Rosa Parkes resorted to civil disobedience.

The EPL resort to violence and thuggery, admittedly spurred on by opposing groups (e.g. the UAF) who seem unable to leave their 'peaceful' protests alone. That said, this footage certainly suggests that they weren't too upset by the prospect of violence at the Leicester rally.

Let's call a spade a spade. Call hooliganism 'hooliganism' rather than 'civil disobedience'. The latter term insults the dignity of long-dead civil disobeyers like Parkes, Gandhi et al.

Ahhh,
The dignity of Ghandi:

"contrary to the image of the abstemious Hindu ascetic, in later life Gandhi frequently bathed with nubile young women, had nude massages and often shared a bed with one or more of his followers"

"The sister of Gandhi's secretary, Sushila Nayar, was one of the women who took part, as was his 18-year-old grandniece, Manu.

In other cases, the wives of men in his ashram were called upon to share his bed, even though they were forbidden to sleep with their husbands, leading to complaints from some of his most devoted male followers."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1044063/gandhi-sex-life-laid-bare-in-new-book

May we all experience, in our twilight years, the same sort of dignity that Ghandi enjoyed in his.

Ahhh,
The pacifism of Ghandi:

"In their efforts to remove the British, Mahatma Ghandi and Nehru joined with the Islamist movement—until barbaric Islamic violence against Hindus occurred in Malabar but even then Gandhi downplayed it!"

http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3314:islams-jihad-against-india-16th-21st-century-part-k-in-islams-genocidal-slavery&catid=170:slavery&Itemid=59

Hmmm,
"downplaying Islamic violence";
sounds familiar.

Now Proxy... settle down mate... are you actually suggesting that the EDL who operate frequently in the 'Midlands' of UK are in fact not simply manipulated soccer hooligans, and rather have a basis for their anti Islamist stance ?

"The President confirmed today that the packages - found in Dubai and the East Midlands in Britain - had originated in Yemen and were bound for Jewish synagogues in Chicago."

and surely you would not be so 'Islamophobic'as to suggest that the targeting of Jews had anything to do with the clear pronouncement of Muhammad:

"The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews"
Sahih Muslim 41:6985

After all Proxy.. "Islam" is not on trial (in Melbourne) no no no...i'ts 'criminal activity' or course.

I suppose that some, who are cursed with the 'liberal' gene, will read passages like that hadith and 'see' "Islam is a peaceful religion"...

Hence this thread "Do our politics determine what we Perceive"?

Always a good idea to let facts speak for themselves don't you think ? :)

Dear Oto

I'm surprised that you simply 'declare' the EDL (not EPL) as 'thugs' who are 'begrudgingly on your part' "admitedly spurred on by others"

Not quite.

a) They are ATTACKED by others.. UAF every single time..and the reason is.. to cause gullible people (that would appear to include you at this stage) to perceive them as 'violent' simply because (after UAF attacks) the papers the next day simply say "Violence broke out at far right EDL protest"

You read this as "The EDL is a violent group of thugs" which is exACTLy how the UAF and the Left wing media WANT you to read it.

b) Police have demonstrated clear discrimination against pro British groups, and this is a cause of frustration.

The EDL boys HAVE carried out peaceful civil disobedience and been thumped and assaulted by the police for their trouble.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/05/thousands-of-muslims-rioting-in-dudley-muslim-gangs-wilding-as-edl-stages-rooftop-protest-of-monster.html

[[Assed (UAF/Muslim activist) added, “There was a real sense of urgency and anger. We made clear to the police that unless they removed the EDL there would be a riot.]]

//Prior to today’s rally, the EDL was in Aylesbury, working with the local council and police to finalize preparations. The EDL was told that they couldn’t take gear and equipment through, because “the roads were going to be closed.” They told the police they would carry the stuff, but the police would not allow them to use their generator.

They also would not allocate any parking, and in a further assault on the basic freedoms of free men, they “closed all of our meeting pubs, and I mean forced them to close.”//

Sounds like ALABAMA and MISSISIPI around CIVIL rights time.

My apologies about the EDL/EPL typo.

I don't think we can reasonably believe that the UAF are thugs and the EDL are not - to me, we're looking at the same people, different causes. If a bunch of people got off a bus in your neighbourhood, swaggering, swearing and posturing as they clearly do in the video, would you say to yourself "oh, they look like nice guys"?

What does the body language of the first person who is filmed breaking the line tell you? Everything about the video screams "thug" to me. I never said the UAF were any better, and I think your addition of "begrudgingly on your part" is an excellent example of "seeing what we want to see". It seems to me that you WANT me to see the EDL as thugs and the UAF as some sort of virtuous opponents so that you can point out how misguided I am. A question, though: why don't the EDL bring their wives and kids to their peaceful protests?

And Proxy, there are times when it is better not to acknowledge your sources. When your source is Jad Adams, who makes a living out of tabloid-style popular histories (his work on Kipling was a hoot), then he is better left unacknowledged. Nonetheless, your smearing of his name fails to justify your use of the euphemism "civil disobedience" for the EDL's activities. Dignified or not in his personal life (and I'm sure the many people in our country, senior or otherwise, who have nude massages would be surprised to see it listed as undignified behaviour), Gandhi led a civil disobedience movement far more dignified than your poor little EDL seem capable of throwing together. I suspect that if old mate Jad took a look into their personal lives, he'd find many of them equally (perhaps even more) wanting in dignity.

Oh, the humanity!

>>They also would not allocate any parking... Sounds like ALABAMA and MISSISIPI around CIVIL rights time<<

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how much you know about Alabama and Mississippi "around Civil Rights time", Boaz. But I suspect that a lack of allocated parking places would not have featured high on the list of indignities.

Comparing Dudley with, say, Selma Alabama, what do we find?

Dudley has a population of around 400,000, of which 94% are white.

Selma has a population of around 20,000, approximately 29% of whom are white.

Dudley has had a history of race rioting that goes back to 1962, when the local thugs targetted Caribbean immigrants.

Selma was the site of a peaceful protest march in 1965, when 600 civil rights activists were met by State Troopers with billy clubs and tear gas.

Somehow, I don't think the marchers were much concerned about parking their cars.

>>Police have demonstrated clear discrimination against pro British groups, and this is a cause of frustration.<<

That's what they'd like you to think. In fact, the British police force is well accustomed to dealing with football hooliganism, of which this brand of white supremacism (which at base is just a handy excuse to start a fight) is a fairly traditional offshoot.

As you well know, your saintly EDL was created by a bunch of classic soccer hooligans, the type that are mostly associated with really poor soccer clubs like Millwall, Leyton Orient and, in this case, Luton Town.

No comment on EDL/Tea Party link-up, complete with stomping?

That's so like you, Boaz.

Dear OTO

you say:

"I don't think we can reasonably believe that the UAF are thugs and the EDL are not" -

Now Oto....that is the EXACT impression the left wing media has wanted you to acquire all along. (you and every other casual reader)

This is why 'perception' and 'politics' is so crucially important.

If you trace the events of EDL rallies/protests, you will find a very definite pattern.

a) They (The EDL) are not out to cause violent confrontation.
b) The UAF are.. DEFINITELY out to cause VIOLENT confrtontation with the EDL. (Weyman Bennet and Martin Smith (both communists) who lead the UAF (which is supported even by David Cameron among others).. for "suspicion of consipiracy to commit violent disorder"

c) Here is how the Police describe the Newcastle Demo

//Chief Supt Graham Smith said: ‘It has been a great success. It has passed without incident. Newcastle is a city for peace and the aim of today was to allow peaceful protests which we have demonstrated is possible through careful planning.//

Hardly how a 'bunch of thugs' would be described no?
The careful planning referred to SHOULD include not permitting UAF counter demonstrations (attacks) on the same day in the same place.
If the UAF were NOT there.... the violence would NOT occur. (unless possibly the police breach their agreements with the EDL in an unfair manner)

Pericles... my mention of Alabama is in a broad sense where 'State Troopers' are the equivalent of the Midlands PC police who are oppressing partiotic Brits.
The head stomping ? :) classic left wing (UAF) Strategy "howl and hurl insults in the face of your opponent trying to evoke a violent reaction for the sake of tomorrows media"... surely you are awake up to this by now ? You also lecture me with regularity about not tarring a whole movement by the actions of one person... right?
As you know..I've been attacked myself... by a hard core commy woman.
Same program, different chanel.

Boaz, I strongly recommend that you review your new policy of endorsing every overseas right-wing nutter movement that you discover on your interwebs.

You clearly know absolutely nothing about the soccer hooligan "crew" mentality. To help your education along, Google "MIG Crew".

This is one place the trail could lead you:

http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/tommy-robinson-of-the-english-defence-league-edl-is-recruiting-nazis-drunken-football-thugs-and-skinheads/

Perhaps surprisingly to you, it does not come from the left-wing mainstream media (like the Daily Mail... I'm still laughing at that one) but from a private detective in Sarasota, Fl.

It contains direct quotes from "Tommy Robinson", the self-styled founder of EDL, which flatly contradict your assertion that "They (The EDL) are not out to cause violent confrontation."

For example:

"What does unite the EDL group is a willingness to fight said Robinson. 'We feel that only people with that mentality will go [to demonstrate],' he said. 'That’s why it’s all lads.'"

So, whom to believe? Boaz, at a safe distance of 17,350km from Newcastle, or the founder of the "movement"?

>>Pericles... my mention of Alabama is in a broad sense where 'State Troopers' are the equivalent of the Midlands PC police who are oppressing partiotic Brits.<<

That's almost on a par with your earlier Nelson Mandela reference, Boaz.

In your genuine - and quite forgivable - ignorance of the true nature of these EDL people, you equate a peaceful march of unarmed southern townsfolk demonstrating for civil rights, with a bunch of soccer thugs out for a day's wog-bashing.

Shame on you.

>>As you know..I've been attacked myself... by a hard core commy woman.<<

Did you stomp on her head, though?

If not, what stopped you?

Think about that for a moment.

Dear Pericles....

honestly....you know not from where I am coming :)

If you think I just latch onto and them place my 'faith' in such movements you are sadly mistaken. I see them as useful, and providing grounds for rational debate. How they act is up to them and the law.

I don't think I've declared them 'pure as a vestal political virgin' socially or politically...have I ?

As to them being 'Soccer Hooligans' about which I am supposed to know so little.. well.. duh....You must think I just scan headlines and never read further afield or deeper...

The EDL are an expression of the current social reality and discontent in the UK.. I think they are reacting to something of a 'highland clearances' mentality by the elite who don't care squat about English Identity. It seems to me that you rather 'fit' that 'elite' type. (but hopefully I'm wrong about that)

It surprises me that you go to such lengths to 'prove' something which is absurdly obvious to anyone who has been around the traps a bit, and that you expend so much energy 'proving' for the side of politics which has far less to account for than the leftist lunatic/thug fringe which always stirs up the EDL.

Seriously...you don't have to 'prove' to me they have some dodgy characters.. I totally believe it. Just like I believe Mandela's youth was peppered with communist agitators using/being part of the ANC with a view to revolution. They were murderers, maniacs, militants and morons and the such like. (but hey...they did prevail)

Why not do some analysis of HopeNotHate/UAF/Searchlight see if they have a few 'sins' hmmm? Why not look at the ECONOMIC sins of Brown and other left wing politicians hmmm? Why not look more at the scumbag Union (capitalist) elite ? Now that would be a totally worthy exercise.

The simple fact that the world is moving to a more conservative/right posture politically should tell you something about where the EDL fit in. Of course you will be watching the US mid terms....yes?

All things considered, Boaz, that is rather an elegant apology.

>>Seriously...you don't have to 'prove' to me they have some dodgy characters.. I totally believe it<<

Given that you claimed all along that...

>>EDL... are ATTACKED by others... carried out peaceful civil disobedience... are not out to cause violent confrontation.<<

It's good that you now see them differently.

>>As to them being 'Soccer Hooligans' about which I am supposed to know so little.. well.. duh<<

Indeed, that's exactly what they are. And proud of it, too.

But my principal beef is that on another thread, you said that EDL is...

>>...essential for the salvation of worn out culturally bludgeoned insensible white english voters<<

You would also presumably assert that Oswald Mosley's 1936 Limehouse rallies were conducted in order to alert "worn out culturally bludgeoned insensible white english voters" to the infiltration of Jews into the British establishment, where they were causing unemployment and hardship to the downtrodden working class.

Ah, yes. I see you have already tucked that one away.

>>The simple fact that the world is moving to a more conservative/right posture politically should tell you something about where the EDL fit in.<<

Some would say "neo-Fascist", of course. But only the Left-leaning socialist rags like the Daily Mail. (I still can't get over that one. Anyone who thinks the Daily Mail is left-wing must think Mussolini was a Bolshevik)..

Excepting the fact that EDL lacks a highly intelligent and charismatic leader like Oswald Mosley, there is little to choose between the brownshirt thugs in 1936 East End and the peripatetic soccer hooligans of 2010. Their disaffection with "the other" is the sole motivation behind their activities, and their predilection for violence their only political bond.

Any relationship with mainstream politics is tangentially accidental, so comparisons with Tea Parties and US mid-terms are irrelevant.

Oh, I forgot this:

>>You must think I just scan headlines and never read further afield or deeper...<<

Yep. On the evidence, that is exactly how you come across.

Remember Barking?

Dear Pericles...you are unfortunately mixing your 'them's and are all over the place with your references.

Let me illustrate.

As an ORGANIZATION....they are committed to peaceful protest.
As an organization which attracts all types.. they are bound to have some 'dodgy' characters either infiltrate or, simply be the bad egg types.

"Glad you now see 'THEM' differently".... u are a mixed up fella arn't u.

No..I see the ORGANIZATION in the same way I have always done. I see the 'dodgy' mob as just that.

The important point of course is to distinguish between those who are deliberate infiltrators who try to give them a bad name. Standard battle tactic of activists and nations in war.

But then you "grow" (like that 'blob' in the movie) to this:

But my principal beef is that on another thread, you said that EDL is...
>>...essential for the salvation yadayada<<

O....k...if 'that' is your beef.. let's work through it.

1/ I stand 100% by that statement.
2/ Saying that does not assert any specific character about the EDL qualitatively.
3/ However, I do believe they are a barometer of social problems which the government has far too long ignored or even trampled on.

Here is a classic example of 'Labor-think' (=progressive think) from my favorite whipping mob the Gore Family.

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/aboutus/diversity/index.html

The following “business networks” are those we’ve piloted so far:
*
AABN: African American Business Network
*
ABN: Asian Business Network
*
LHBN: Latino/Hispano Business Network
*
GFLAG: Gore Friends of Lesbians and Gays
*
GROW: Gore Reaching Out to Women
*
WMSD: White Men Supporting Diversity

Do you see it P ? :) mind numbing stuff there you know.

All the groups eXCEPT the white one are asserting their own cultural/racial identity.
The WHITES.. are said to be 'supporting diversity' ... ohhhh MYYYYYY
So, all the Asians and blacks and hispanics can have their own racial(or sexual) identity..but NOT the whites....they must simply 'support' the diversity.

Remember Ignatiev ? "Abolish the white race, by all means neccessary"

Remember also he is talking about a 'social construct'

Scanned through the discussion, watch the original video. What I see is unhappy citizens of a country protesting because they are not treated as equals. The police whom are trying to do their job are more afraid then the protesters are. Their choice of job to have.

Racism exist in every country. In Australia, i noticed that it is more acceptable, but it's still around. It is so easy to judge others, for all most of us know is that religion has divided mankind. Someone blame Islams. I don't think that is fair. How would you like it if you were born as a muslim? You would have been brought up to practice Islam and follow their believes. Thus subjected to instant judgement in most countries.

Trying to move to the USA is a headache for any Muslim.. not matter what the reason is. They are already judged. Not everyone is the same. But the general public have classified all people whom practice Islam as the same kinda person? Not exactly fair is it?

How about Christians? Certain people judge them as well. As well as all other religion. When I was a lot younger, I used to say religion was just there to split humanity apart. How old is the human species? and how long has religion been around? Most of us get born into a religion. The lucky ones are given the choice to choose as they get older.

The video clip, shows the Islams expressing their anger and frustrations towards the government how the are treated as second/third class citizens. It shows how the law force, if this continues, will not be able to control the frustrations of man kind.

This is only one example.. showing Islams.. There are plenty others, for every religion.

Can you trust what you see on videos nowadays? Does it really matter what happened? It could have been edited as suggested, so that it looks a certain way. What i saw: Even with his colleague down, the policeman with the camera still kept recording and did not bother to help him.

<<The video clip, shows the Islams expressing their anger and frustrations towards the government how the are treated as second/third class citizens.>>
You are projecting again, therefore making ALGOREisRICH's point.

Islam teaches Muslims that they are superior to non-Muslims.
Non-Muslims are najis, along with:
Urine
Faeces
Semen
Dead body
Blood
Dog
Pig
(Kafirs are slotted here in the hierarchy)
Alcoholic liquors
The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat
http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=2&bid=59&pid=2857
No, the "Islams" are demanding the implementation of Shariah law in the (formerly) United Kingdom.
This is an absolute imperative demanded by their belief system which considers the UK and all other western countries as dar al' Harb, or the house of war, which can only know peace through submission to Allah's will.
They are only too willing to accelerate this process,
which is already being facilitated by multicultural ignorance.

Islam has a word for second/third class citizens: Dhimmis.
This describes non-Muslims in majority Islamic countries who don't enjoy equal protection under the law.
Why should they?
After all, they reject Allah and his messenger.

The word Dhimmi also describes Western Islamic apologists who are too ignorant to educate themselves on the true nature of Islam.
They have effectively already submitted.

How judgmental you are. I bet you do not personally know a single human that practices Islam. We are entitled in life to choose what we want to believe and practice, not because others think it's wrong, but because we think it is right. It is a personal choice, for whatever reason.

It is so obvious you hold hatred against them for whatever reason. Feel sorry for your ignorance.. They are humans, we are humans.. even the less superior species on this planet do not treat their kind this way. But, that is the reality we live in.

What is your believes? I suppose it tells you that you are more superior then anyone else, and that you have the right to not accept people as they come. If you were a parent.. just imagine you had a child that choose to practice Islam. You are so selfish.. so sad to see...

Y'know Boaz, sometimes I think you are channelling Arjay, with all these "left-wing conspiracy" issues you keep waving in front of us.

>>Here is a classic example of 'Labor-think' (=progressive think) from my favorite whipping mob the Gore Family.<<

And this is relevant to a discussion on the EDL, how?

I suppose that it does give further insight into your affinity with their neo-Fascist veneer...

>>All the groups eXCEPT the white one are asserting their own cultural/racial identity<<

But this isn't all about you, you know. It is about bigotry, racially-based hatred and the use of such as an excuse for gratuitous violence.

Since you haven't been to a soccer game in the UK, you naturally have some difficulty in understanding how sections of the crowd are there purely for the fight. Whether the fight is instigated by the colour of the opposition's shirt, or merely "you lookin' at me pal" confrontation, it is all the same to them. They align themselves with their crew, and take pride in the violence they instigate.

This also means that you cannot understand how these people are the natural ingredient of any anti-(Muslim/black/asian/Irish) belligerance.

It has as much to do with them being "a barometer of social problems which the government has far too long ignored or even trampled on" as the slice of lime in my gin and tonic. Sure, you can see it as it floats on the top next to the ice cubes. But it is just as much at home in the lime pickle on my lamb jalfrezi.

EDL is about incoherent, pointless violence. They care nothing for politics of any kind, being far more interested in vast quantities of warm english beer.

Dear Al,

I finally got round to viewing the video - and I have to agree with Pericles' observation that: "...hey ho, here we go, here's yet another group of soccer hooligans wrapping themselves in the flag of St George as an excuse to pick a fight with Muslims".

I get your point about the dog, but it's really only a side issue...the "EDL" looked like a bunch of thugs out for a bit of biff

HI dear Poirot....glad you took the time to view it.

My primary point was simply how that portion of the vid was reported in the various media.

If you look further at all reporting of the EDL, you will find that the same bias applies. The outcome is exactly the impression you conveyed in...

".hey ho, here we go, here's yet another group of soccer hooligans wrapping themselves in the flag of St George as an excuse to pick a fight with Muslims"

If you look closely at the history of the EDL you would see there is WAYYYYY more to it than that simplisitic writing off by your good self.
Soccer hooligans have been around as long as Soccer. They havn't been out "Picking on minorities" they've been fighting other clubs and/or the police. (Pericles might correct me there but that's how the news reports)

The began after the disgraceful attack on Brit soldiers returning from O'seas at Luton... look it up please.

A key ingredient in that 'blood spurts out your eyes' level of police complicity and incompetance was their protection of the Muslim thugs/radicals rather than ARRESTING them for public order offenses.
That was the straw which broke the camels back. (if you want another straw..they DID arrest white brits simply for SHOUTING abuse at these scum)

JINNY and PERICLES have both demonstrated a serious mental flaw as follows:

Proxy outlines how degraded is the Islamic view of non Muslims (down with faeces etc)
Jinny then calls Proxy 'ignorant and full of hate' :)

Jinny.. u seem new here please don't take offence..I'm simply pointing out the irrational nature of what you said.
If I said "Jinny..you and your kind are dog sh@t"...err happy ?

Pericles says: "It is about bigotry, racially-based hatred and the use of such as an excuse for gratuitous violence."

Hmmm those 'genes' are hard at work P :)

Dear Al,

It was about gratuitous violence in my view.

Young men collectively gathering in self-transcendent mode are a very dangerous entity. If the EDL arranged to bus these men to this particular location, it was for the purpose of confrontation. Why then should they complain when things get out of hand and arrests are made...what would they or you expect to happen under such provocative circumstances?

Still scratching my head over Pericles weird comment "It's about racial hatred".....wanders off with a sullen look...to....

POIROT... back to you :)

Taking this issue a bit further afield and hooking into the US elections happening right now...let's examine something there.

OBAMA "We have saved or created 3million jobs with the stimulus"

REALITY.

SAVED: The public service unions which have manipulated grossly inflated Pensions to the point of unsustainablity, where states are actually bankrupt... have had those greed based, socialist inspired, union backed unsustainable pensions BAILED OUT saving the bankruptcy and the jobs of numerous firefighters/police etc who would otherwise have had to be sacked.

CREATED: "Green Jobs" are the 'jobs' mainly referred to and they come from socialist orchestrated pandering to unemployed racial minorities to go around doing insulation refurbishment etc Oh my....

Each time I hear Obama or some Demobrat speak about created or saved jobs .. my head explodes.

IT'S ALL ABOUT CAPITALISM .. but some of those mega capitalists simply choose the racial minorities and working classes as their political power base from which to secure government contracts and generally expand their business's with political manipulation.

JUSSSST imagine... how much you would NEED political help with a company like "Gore-Tex". I notice they also have manufacturing facilities in China...hmmmmmm..
DemoBrat Chris Coons candidate for Senate,Delaware (married to the daughter of the CEO)has a lot to answer for.

Dear Al.

I'll get back to you a bit later when I have more time on the U.S.'s challenges...although I did notice that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert held a rally in response to Glenn Beck's....looked interesting, and apparently they drew a bigger crowd.

Getting back to the EDL and their seeming to adopt the aid of thugs to further their agenda. It's interesting to look at what happens to someone's mind when they become part of a group such as that. An individual's personal identity is subsumed by that of the group or "cause" with whom they identify. They then act almost exclusively as an agent of that greater system and are energised by their fellow members - they lose their sense of autonomy and, therefore, any personal control is jettisoned in favour of a mob mentality.

I can tell that you are puzzled, Boaz.

>>Soccer hooligans have been around as long as Soccer. They havn't been out "Picking on minorities" they've been fighting other clubs and/or the police. (Pericles might correct me there but that's how the news reports)<<

Yep, I will correct you.

“In the 1980s and 1990s these hooligan groups perceived the threat to English masculinity was coming from the IRA’s mainland bombing campaign,” said Nick Lowles from Searchlight. “They associated themselves with the loyalist movement and the chant ‘no surrender to the IRA’ was popular at football grounds around the country. Now many see what they term ‘Islamist extremism’ as the biggest threat.”

http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/tommy-robinson-of-the-english-defence-league-edl-is-recruiting-nazis-drunken-football-thugs-and-skinheads/

"In Britain, racist chanting at matches still occurs, but at nowhere near the levels it reached in the 1970s and 80s, when black players were often greeted with monkey-noises and bananas."

http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvexec.html

>>Still scratching my head over Pericles weird comment "It's about racial hatred".....wanders off with a sullen look<<

You are looking at the issue from the wrong angle, Boaz.

Yes, violence at soccer games in the UK is endemic. It is part of the culture. It always has been, mainly due to the demographic of your average match-goer. What better place, then, to recruit relatively mindless violence, wrap it is a flag, supply it with the necessary levels of paranoia, then just let it rip.

Lowles of Searchlight, again:

"Lowles said that while many of the hooligans involved with the EDL were nationalists and racists, only a handful would associate themselves with fascist, far-right policies. 'While it is not a fascist organisation, there are a handful of organised fascists in key positions'"

But what wonderful material for those leaders to work with. They don't need to worry whether the finer points of political intrigue go over the heads of the mob, they just point them in the Right direction, and let them off the leash.

What is my type? I don't have a type. I respect all religions. I don't see how it is wrong to express how another being shouldn't judge others based on his limited knowledge. That is all. I commented about this, because, I used to work in one of the football stadiums there in UK.. the first football club ever form in UK.. I worked there. I have seen all the behavior. So I know, so I commented. What makes any human more superior then the other then he/she think they can condemn others? Human=human. Period

ALGOREisRICH: since you decided to judge me... Hmmm... let's see.. my kind.. of dog? I prefer dogs actually. Because they don't judge. They accept, love, and they are loyal. My kind.. is HUMAN.. same as you, So if you want to indicate that I am any kind of other species, apart from human, please have the decency, to include yourself and the rest of the human race :). Righto.

Yes, I am new in this forum. I like to learn, and I learn from here.. how humans behave. I still have the right to express how I think, just as you do. So some of you have spend a bit of time analyzing this video, trying to pin point your arguments. You think by doing that, it is going to change anything?? wow.. amazing.. it has changed so much... I rest my case.

<<What makes any human more superior then the other then he/she think they can condemn others? Human=human. Period>>
Great to hear you think so.
Clearly you will then condemn an ideology which teaches that those who don't adhere to it are inferior to those who do.
Clearly then you would reject an ideology which ranks people who do not subscribe to that ideology in the same class as faeces and urine.
Clearly you would reject an ideology which advocates that its followers do not take as friends those who follow another belief system:
Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
Clearly you would condemn an ideology which commands its followers to kill those who don't believe in the absolute truth of that ideology:
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191)
Clearly then you would reject and condemn Islam and anybody who subscribes to its pernicious supremacist doctrine.

sigh... yes.. you are all right.. because you have been brain washed into believing all this from a young age and you have forgotten how to actually to trust you instincts, and think for yourself without allowing outside influence corrupt you. Do you think we were created so we could cause more hard then damage? Do you think we evolve to be here, so as the superior species, we can fight amongst ourself.. well, Whom of you that enjoys arguing and debating your so called believes. Keep spending it here.. but not taking any action.

I don't have to worry about that.. because I am taking action. Thus, I have no need to proof myself here. :) have fun debating fellas. peace out..

Oooooh.. i forgot. I never said I agreed to their believes.. I never said their religion was right. I said I respected it. Merely because it is their choice/or no choice, to practice it. Because that was all they were thought to believe. They didn't have the chance to be educated otherwise.

Dear Poirot... constructive there :) but some curious aspects.

1/ The Colbert/Steward Rally was not quite as big as Becks.(but still big) though that doesn't matter much. What DOES matter heaps though is that in a rally to 'restore sanity' they invite Yusuf Islam as a participant! ! ! The man who called for the horrific death of Salman Rushdie on more than one occasion. That's sanity? :) I don't think so.
2/ Group mentality? yep.. quite true.

Pericles old son...please tell me something. Do you really.. and truly regard Nick Lowles as a credible source for information about anything? I get regular emails from him and I just roll my eyes and nearly about choke. (I gave up checking his stuff ages ago when it turned out to be mostly spin) He reminds me of Goebbels, Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf (Iraqi Info minister pre victory) and Squeers all mixed into one.

Dear Jinny do you respect a person who considers you like a dog?
Seriously.. if another person thinks they are far superior to you, and that their religion will 'dominate all other religions'(by force)....is this something you can respect ?

Al: What is your suggestion to a solution? degrade them? disrespect them? Treat them like animals instead of humans? What's the point of trying to fight something that you can't change?

It is not just in religion, it is in power and control, job status, etc.. religion is just one reason to judge. How about those who thinks their 'financially dependant' job makes them a more superior being?

If you can come up with a solution, I would be so grateful.

Here is a person that is doing something about trying to make a difference http://www.tawfikhamid.com/abcs-test-for-radical-islam/

Non-issue, Boaz.

>>Pericles old son...please tell me something. Do you really.. and truly regard Nick Lowles as a credible source for information about anything?<<

It was a quote. From the Daily Mail, as it happens (that <chuckle> communist propaganda rag).

You can choose to accept it or you can choose not to accept it.

>>He reminds me of Goebbels, Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf (Iraqi Info minister pre victory) and Squeers all mixed into one.<<

I'm getting a vague inkling that you don't find him convincing - would I be right?

Fair enough. But do tell, which part of this statement of his would you disagree with?

"While it is not a fascist organisation, there are a handful of organised fascists in key positions"

I'd say that the evidence is very much on Goebbels' side on this occasion, would you not agree?

As I said. Non-issue.

Sorry P... very busy right now.. got a job for 400 'things' I have to make by 'today'.... but only received the bits 'today'... crikey.

I'll get back to you. Lowles is a scumbag in my view.

Why is it that I'm called a hateful bigot for saying that Islam advocates:

-killing apostates
-beating women and stoning women to death for adultery
-calling Jews pigs and monkeys.
-declaring war on Non Muslims to spread Islam after offering Non Muslims three options: subjugate to Islam, pay Jizia (a humiliating tax), or be killed.
-enslavement of Other Human Beings.
-fighting and killing Jews before the “End of Days”.
-gay killing

yet when Tawfik Hamid says the same thing, he's a man of peace?

Go figure.

Dear Proxy :)

I already explained that situation.. "Liberal Genes" ...

It has to be something like that because such a situation defies rationality.

Party A calls for mass murder.
Party B condemns them for it.
Party C condemns party B for exposing it......

I told ya.. "genes"

Here is an example of how it works.

EDL visit Amsterdam.

-Leftists threaten violence.
-EDL move with police permission to a remote location.
-Thuggish Muslim/leftists gather menacingly and finally....
-Dutch police pull BACK...
-Leftists ATTACK....EDL (which include women)
-EDL simply withdraw...walk away
-EDL van is attacked..smashed.
-BRITISH police intervene and end up in virtual fist fights with the leftist thugs, arresting some. (don't ask me why British cops are in Amsterdam and allowed to arrest dutch evildoers.. I can't work that out)

BUT.. "The Far Right English defense league held a violent demonstration in Amsterdam" is how the media portrays it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoiGbF1Re_s&feature=related

IT get's worse. Not only is Proxy a 'bigoted islamophobic' individual for pointing out just the 'theory' of such things....

but it appears the DAILY MAIL is also.. simply for 'reporting' these "practical" outrages perpetrated by Muslims against British justice..not to mention the MP who was stabbed by the female muslim simply because he voted "yes" for the war in Iraq.

How DARE the Daily Mail mention 'Islam/ muslims' in connection with these 'obvious crimes'... because "Islam" must have nothing whatsoever to do with this 'criminal' behavior.

I think the DM is just wallowing in stirring up 'fear and loathing' right ?

Shame on them.

This report is likely to cause blood to spurt out your eyes..so take it easy if you read it..... I see no reference to:

-Punishing Welfare fraud
-Punishing Public Order offences.
-Punishing 'incitement to kill'

Nope..none of it.

As you said, Al, what were the English bobbies doing in Amsterdam? Further to that, though, what were the EDL doing there?

<<As you said, Al, what were the English bobbies doing in Amsterdam?
Further to that, though, what were the EDL doing there?>>

As you said, Al,
<<Party A calls for mass murder.
Party B condemns them for it.
Obi-Wan Kenobi says "what were party B doing in Amsterdam anyway.....">>

I'm still trying to work out whether they're for real.

Sorry, Proxy. I thought the E in EDL actually had a meaning.

Seeing that they have done such an abysmal job of casting the infidels out of England, I was just a little confused about their mission in the Netherlands. Is it a case of "we can't get it together here, so we'll try elsewhere"? Is it a case of "let's protest on behalf of people who didn't ask us to and don't care about us in the slightest"? Or is it a case of "this looks like another great opportunity to get our hands dirty - let's go, boys"? How does rallying in the Netherlands help to defend England?

Dear Oto

the point of the EDL visit to the Netherlands was simple.

'Express solidarithy with the Dutch and European Defense leagues over the issue of Islamization of their countries'.

The reason for the Netherlands in particular is that due to it's hyper (mad) progressive/liberal/tolerance, it is the most likely to surcumb to the invasion of Islamists.

The visit is historic as it provides a stepping stone to stronger links with the pan European "Defense Leagues".

It was also (just to bring you up to speed :) regarding the current 'TRIAL OF GEERT WILDERS' for "Incitement/hate speech" it was an expression of solidarity and support.

Have a 'careful' read of the EDL report on that visit.

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:where-so-few-stood-up-to-so-many&catid=42:edl-editorial

You'd need to read it in detail to capture the mood and rationale, plus be fully informed about what happened.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/10/metropolitan-police-guardian-angels.html for more info on the MET police who protected the EDL while Dutch police fed them to the lions(Antifa/leftists)

HERE is another little example of how 'Perception' is at work in matters of state law. (USA)

http://www.koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13433018

EVENT: Oklahoma has approved a measure preventing Judges referring to either "International law" or.."Islamic law" when deciding cases.

REACTION:

(MUSLIM) "It's an attack on Islam"

(LEFTIST/PROGRESSIVE)
While not reported, one can imagine :) "Human rights under threat in fascist Oklahoma

ME.. I 'perceive' this voter supported legislation as WHOOOOHOOOO, YIPEEEE..ABOUT BLADI TIME... lets FOLLOW suit.

England and the Netherlands (and France, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, USA, Australia, Canada, etc, etc) are facing a common enemy and it is natural that the English would show solidarity with the Dutch in this situation.
The Western world is facing external and internal threats to its freedom.
On one side is Islamic stealth jihad which includes demographics and lawfare.
On the other side are the "progressive" aiders and abettors who would squander our liberty for their multicultural illusion.
They would support Islamic intolerance in the name of tolerance and would not think twice about imprisoning those who disagree with them.
Yes, it is curious that the EDL is at the forefront of the battle for liberty but who else is taking a stand against Islamic supremacy and "progressive" dhimmitude?

We're 'way past the credibility limit on this, and heading rapidly into suspension of disbelief territory.

>>the point of the EDL visit to the Netherlands was simple. Express solidarithy with the Dutch..."

I'll be more inclined to believe that when I see Dutch protesters marching the streets of England in support of the EDL.

The point of the trip was simply an extension of soccer hooliganism, a bunch of likely lads out for a punch-up across the channel. Has it not occurred to you yet that, to the participants, this is absolutely indistinguishable from ManU fans trashing the Amsterdam ArenA at a match with Ajax.

The proof of this is that Geert Wilders himself wants nothing to do with them

http://defendgeertwilders.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/britons-arrested-at-amsterdam-edl-protest/

"Mr Wilders – who was barred from visiting Britain before being allowed to enter last year – has reportedly said he has no ties to the EDL and did not support the demonstration."

The soccer-hooligan nature of the visit was patently obvious to Amsterdam's team.

"Dutch authorities attempted to isolate the protest from anti-fascist groups and supporters of football team Ajax, both of whom urged their members to disrupt the afternoon demonstration."

Incidentally, where did this come from, Boaz?

>>BRITISH police intervene and end up in virtual fist fights with the leftist thugs, arresting some<<

Ah yes, from the EDL web site.

"Well something changed in Amsterdam because this video shows British Police drive up in a “snatch wagon” to arrest some of the violent activists."

Look again, Boaz. Both of the vehicles involved carry Dutch number plates. The black one even has "Politie" on the door. I suspect that the EDL commentator heard them speaking English (which the Dutch tend to do remarkably well) and simply assumed they were English police.

Because, let's face it, even getting budget approval for a bunch of rozzers to track a handful of hooligans would never have happened. They just aren't that important.

They'd like to think they are,.

But they are just another bunch of racist thugs, in a long line of similar groups of disaffected youths, stretching over many decades.

Let me add a little colour to my observation that the EDL is " just another bunch of racist thugs, in a long line of similar groups of disaffected youths, stretching over many decades."

The 1982 movie "The Wall" is the live-action movie of the 1979 Pink Floyd album of the same name.

The story line revolves around the rock singer Pink, and his feelings of alienation. Late in the movie, he fails to turn up at a gig, and the stand-in act is a pastiche of a neo-Fascist rally. Here are the lyrics from that "show".

"So ya thought ya might like to go to the show.
To feel the warm thrill of confusion, that space cadet glow.
I got me some bad news for you, Sunshine.
Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel,
And he sent us along as a surrogate band.
We're gonna find out where you fans really stand.
Are there any queers in the theatre tonight?
Get 'em up against the wall.
And that one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me.
Get him up against the wall.
And that one looks Jewish, and that one's a coon.
Who let all this riffraff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint, and another with spots!
If I had my way I'd have all of ya shot."

(Roger Waters)

The next track, "Run like hell", is equally documentary in nature, describing how the hyped-up audience then goes on a street rampage, chasing down the various targets described in the "leader's" speech.

"You better fun like hell
You better run all day
And run all night
And keep your dirty feelings
Deep inside
And if you take your girlfriend
Out tonight,
You better park the car
Well out of sight
Cos if they catch you in the back seat
Trying to pick her locks
They’re gonna send you back to mother
In a cardboard box
You better run"

(Roger Waters, Dave Gilmour)

Just to point out that the EDL are not a recent invention, they've been around, in various guises, for decades.

Dear Pericles

MET POLICE
I honestly have no clue about the identity of the 'met police' reported in the EDL website.. I presume the Dutch number plates were because they rented a vehicle ? No idea. I find no plausible reason for the EDL article to misrepresent that part of the incident, but hey.. I'm just going on the balance of probabilities here.

PUNCH UP. Nope.. let's put our politics aside for a moment and actually look at the facts.. amazing how they can shed light on what happened eh ? :)

I gave it to you in step by step form above...but let's try again...a simpler version.

a) Muslim/Leftist crowd approaches EDL near demo site.
b) EDL lads back off.. retreat...walk away
c) Muslim/Leftist mob (as promised) begin to attack.
d) EDL proceed to the event and make speeches.

Now..if you can find 'just want a punch up' in that.. well.. I do indeed see a koala flying outside my window. Put yourself in the place of a magistrate (a rational one) Pericles.. who looks at all the circumstances and facts. (which you are not doing)

All you are doing is trying to portray them in terms of your preset script and using whatever you can to 'promo' that script.

Whether Wilders needs to distance himself from them for reasons associated with his current legal challenges is up to him. I don't expect 100% homogeneity in the Anti Islamofascist movement.

WOLFISH GRADUALISM in a PROGRESSIVE SHEEP's SKIN.
Was the title of a thread I tried to start.. rejected. It related to the issue of 'politics and perception' so I'll include reference here.

When does "courtesy and accomodation" become surrender and humiliation?
Here is something to ponder.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1050165/Muslim-council-chiefs-ban-ALL-members-tea-sandwiches-meetings-Ramadan.html

Just one more reason why the EDL exists.
cheers.

It's allll in the facts. (@Pericles)

Here is a bit more of the report you so selectively used to try to emphasize the EDL were out for a punch up.

//34 people arrested during the day, Amsterdam Police spokesman Rob van der Veen said. It is understood the five were held for not producing identification while on their way to the demonstration.//

Why were the EDL blokes held ? "identification" issue.

Why were the 29 others held? Dare I say:

//Dutch authorities attempted to isolate the protest from anti-fascist groups and supporters of football team Ajax, both of whom urged their members to disrupt the afternoon demonstration.//

The left/muslims promised violence.... and they were true to their word...and some were arrested.

No matter how much you highlight, underline and use bold type in your script, Perilous.. you can't make it match the facts.

But when has the odd contrary fact worried you :)

Facts, Boaz?

>>It's allll in the facts<<

You continue to regurgitate EDL quotes as if they were facts...

>>I find no plausible reason for the EDL article to misrepresent that part of the incident, but hey.. I'm just going on the balance of probabilities here.<<

Do you not see the contradiction here?

On the balance of probabilities, I suspect not.

Dear Pericles.. running out of steam ? :)

The 'facts' I gave you were from YOUR article quotation.. are you now suggesting you offer information in which you have no confidence?

I told you I don't know more than what the EDL site said about who protected them. I see no reason for them to fabricate that..if you can think of a reason..by all means share it.

Come to think of it....you don't have much faith in any document you don't like ...do you ?

let's see... so Muslims are bad... catholic priest rape young boys? hmmm... i wonder

you ppl and ur religion.. can't believe how much time you can waste of your life discussing this. AMAZES ME

thanks to 9/11 and da americans, the world terrorist is always related to muslims.

Yes, keep fighting amongst your own kind... let religion divide us. Good on you :)

Just in case anyone have more time to waste:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukRQuQ7V6k&feature=related

What a funny little possum you are, Boaz, to be sure.

>>The 'facts' I gave you were from YOUR article quotation.. are you now suggesting you offer information in which you have no confidence?<<

What "facts" were they, Boaz?

You need to be specific, you know.

If you are not specific, then all you are doing is waving your arms about.

And that's not a good look, you know.