*Please, did you get that one from FOX?*

No Hazza, I did not, as I don't get Fox. But I am certainly better
informed about this then you are. Short term, because of a
drought situation that is happening here, I am focussing on how
to feed livestock for the next 8 months and not on posting on OLO.

If you would actually like to inform yourself, I could recommend
a book titled "Al Quaeda", by Jason Burke, who is the chief reporter
for the Guardian and spent 10 years in the ME and SW Asia.
He published it in 2003 and it will give you a deeper understanding
of the whole thing, then you presently have.

No thanks Yabby, because despite having reference of this book you have not been able to directly address my points so far shared, or construct some feasible logic as to why Bin Laden would orchestrate 911 from different motives than he himself has stated (or why he'd lie about his motives), and obsession with America in any shape or form were it not for its active Middle East interventions and its allegiance with Israel.

The fact that you didn't even realize America has NOT been a militarily/politically neutral actor in the Middle East, nor being able to acknowledge a connection with Israel as being a potential factor (right or wrong), doesn't exactly ring as an endorsement.

Sorry, but you're trying to pretend a case which contradicts both the declaration of the terrorist who committed them, and the gigantic logical flaw that is Europe's comparative immunity.

If America didn't do anything like you thought, then how could terrorists have possibly been able to single it out, as opposed to France, Sweden, Switzerland? Or, what would they have preached against it to encourage MORE people to join this extremist movement?

You're still insisting that AQ could have recruited operatives capable of 911 solely on them not LIKING some country that they have never interacted with far away across an ocean.

No Hazza, what I am saying is that you refuse to understand and
inform yourself about the complexity of this issue and you are clearly
a sucker for any politician or political strategist, if all that you
rely on is their press statement, to form a considered opinion about
what drives them. If only life were so simple.

What old Muhammed formed was not just a religion, but a tiny army
which eventually turned into a huge army. They conquered much of
the Med region and moved into Southern Europe, taking Christian slaves as as they went. That is how Islam spread.

Today much of the Muslim world suffers from a real problem of
self esteem and dignity in question. For despite this huge power
at the time, Islamic countries eventually sank into relative poverty
etc, whilst the West industrialised, became wealthy, became educated
and powerful, whilst they went downhill. That has left many scars,
including on Bin Laden.

The Muslim Salafists want things to go back to how they were at the
time of Muhammed. The Salafist Jihadis are quite prepared to use
violence, to achieve that objective. The Koran contains plenty of
violence and it can be interepreted in many ways.

tbc

Now you seem to think that if the US behaved like Sweden or
Switzerland, all would be fine and they would just go away.
That is very simplistic thinking.

I am the first to criticise the dummy that was George Bush and
the damage that he did to the cause of the West, in much of
the third world. Comparing him to a Clinton or an Obama is
like night and day. The latter actually have people skills,
which matters in global politics.

But Switerland and Sweden are basically politically neutral.
That is all very well, not even Hitler attacked the Swiss,
but there is a realpolitik that needs to be dealt with.

Fact is that the West is hooked on oil and the Islamists are
aware of that. Fact is that the West was largely responsible
for the Israel that we have today.

It is all very well for you to stand on the sidelines and say
"just do nothing". It is what Switzerland and Sweden do.

How sweet of you.

So if the Arabs overran and captured Israel, kicking out the
Jews, if the Islamists destroyed the House of Saud and thus
controlled the Western economies, by virtue of our dependance
on their oil, what would you say? Do nothing, as Islamists
controlled your job, your economy?

Fact is that both Switzerland and Sweden depend on America
having taken a stand on all this.

For I can assure you that if bin Laden and his jihadis
controlled the ME oilwells, you as an infidel, would either
play to his fundamentalist tune, or starve. Hardly a pretty
picture.

Yabby truly sorry to hear about the drought, seems a shame most of us have had great rain.
And again while we are from different sides of the fence in politics it is much easier to find common ground with you than KH here.
Bit rich the left stance America is always wrong.
Freedom to think that would have been lost along time ago without them.
ISLAMISTS, not Muslims in general, are moving west with a reason, and intend if they can to take over.
But lets return to this threads question.
Can we win.
Do we need to.
If both answers are yes does it have to be done by foot soldiers.
I am proud of our troops, understand we need them but do we force them to fight battles we can not win over and over again?
A battle may well come, I see no other outcome, that we must win, and if we must fight this one now fight smarter.

Ok Yabby, ignore the clear relationship between the US and Israel's active presence in the Middle East (fact that Israel has no choice aside) and the fact that they always get singled out in the majority of hate literature and attacks in these regions, while other (and often more immediate) neighbors get completely ignored by international terrorists, except to target US or Israeli representatives.

It really IS simply because they randomly pick people up off the street offering candy, and suddenly convince them that their god needs them to attack USA to take over the world, because the USA would possibly stand out in the Middle East for no particular reason, as opposed to, say, Rome, Europe, China, Russia, India.

Anyway, if the extremists (that is, the terrorist extremists, not the Sauds) got control over the Saudi oil fields, WE would simply stop buying their oil unless they kept it cheap, and increasing our conversion to alternate fuels while relying more on our OWN oil reserves.

This conversation is getting ridiculous even for itself, Yabby