Why stay?

Ask that question to the innocent citizenry of Afghanistan. They know that without protection they have 2 choices in life (1) submit to the bad guys and live in political and fundamentalist servitude for life or (2) fight - - - and suffer murder, rape, genocide, no hope, no future other than death or eventual servitude.

It's very easy to ask "why stay?", when you live in a nice, safe, comfortable, wealthy and free country.

Ok back up for a second, Belly you seem to be reading too far into the implications of my statements, Yabbby sadly nowhere near enough.

Firstly, I'm actually pro-Israel and staunchly hostile to fundamentalist Muslims, and find their extreme beliefs alone should warrant being barred from any Western country- even in the absence of likelihood to bomb us.

However, it has become simply too apparent that interacting with the Middle East is the primary motivation for the attacks. Also, that these attacks are always launched domestically by people we willingly let into our countries. USA, UK and Israel do both of these things, and they get the lion's share of terrorist attacks;

However, countries along mainland Europe are taking the exact opposite approach- staying out of conflicts while expressing how unwelcoming they are across the countries where such people would migrate from (such as Geert Wilder's gay-couples-in-Netherlands ad). As a result, they get almost nothing (except hate crimes from people they already let in previously).

In short, keep out fundies, check people that come in to make sure they're not fundies, and stay out of fundie-lands to ensure fundies abroad aren't going to go to the trouble of organizing a long distance attack.

It may be easy to find some inbred retard who's happy to carry a suicide vest into a market solely because he doesn't like the people there and will go to heaven (recruiters in Iraq selecting disabled persons for the job), but to get people competent enough to pull off an attack like 911 would require a much more compelling reason to quit your job, travel to the other side of the world, gain citizenship, learn how to fly a plane on a mission that WILL kill you, than that. Maybe God demanding it would work if it were within an hour's drive, but attacking someone on the far corner of the globe simply because they're not Muslim won't raise many heads.

King Hazza, Israel is no less fundamentalist in the way it degrades, murders and controls via force the daily lives of Palestinians. Islamic fundamentalism is a terrible thing, just as Israeli fundamentalism is equally a terrible thing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Israel is as equally guilty as it's enemies. In fact, Israel regularly inflicts FAR greater military harm against innocent, ordinary Palestinians, men women and children, than Palestinians inflict against innocent, ordinary citizens of Israel.

The warring elements of BOTH sides are equally to blame. And no amount of excuses or philosophical blame shifting can change that fact.

We in the West tend to choose our wars under the guise of democracy very particularly. There are numerous countries where human rights issues are marked and where, using the logic to stay in Afghanistan, we should be in there conflicting with all tyrannical regimes or where extremism is highest such as in the Sudan and Somalia.

Afghanistan is a difficult one, we are in there already and many Afghanis now rely on the protection of allied armies. However, there has to be an end and will the radical extremists ever be diverted from their destructive path - will remaining in-country be more inflammatory than the risks of leaving?

We would be better off applying better diplomacy and fairer foreign policy on the world stage.

A diplomacy approach coupled with vigilance around home grown terrorism will have more effect in the long term in the same way that education and better economic advantages in those countires will reduce terrorist activity.

I say get the hell out and fast. Lick our wounds and be prepared to defend our own country because one thing is for certain, and that's that little ol Aus is looking pretty dam good compared to many other countries out there and that is something we should be both proud of, and afraid of.

Desperate people will do desperite things, and god knows, many are desperate right now.

Boy I hope I am wrong.

For the record, I don’t think we should have been there to start with as wars based on religion are un-winnable in my opinion.

*As the US Empire winds down and it cannot afford to finance military
expeditions to remote corners of the world, the whole conflict will
change.*

Well that is an interesting point Bazz, because Bin Laden did say
that he would bankrupt America. 911 cost maybe a few hundred grand
to make it happen. Think what America has spent since then. Their
treasury is in fact nearly broke.

*However, it has become simply too apparent that interacting with the Middle East is the primary motivation for the attacks.*

Hazza, you are confusing the two. Arafat was fighting for land, but
he was no religious nut. That is the case with many Palestinians.
That is not the case with the Islamists. For them any excuse will
do, for as Qutb wrote, Muslims had been exploited and discriminated
against for decades.

Now if you think that the Middle East is the only problem, then
answer straight about Israel. You cannot be pro Israel, yet deny
their right to exist. Should all the Jews leave?

There have indeed been other bombings, think of Spain. But what
you have is a very good intelligence service all through Europe,
who have been able to thwart countless attacks. From Germany,
Belgium, France to Italy. America has had no major attack, since
they improved their security. Just attempts, as in Europe.