Dear david f,
I agree that “to revel in guilt” - like in many other things - is pointless or worse. This includes collective guilt, felt or made to feel. Here, in Germany, I met a psychotherapist who told me he took out an extra degree in history in order to be better able to treat patients who had problems with what their grandfather did, or failed to do, during WWII.

I really appreciate your sincere words. I can understand your sentiments towards people who accuse you of being immoral just because you do not accept their religion. I myself am irritated by these people, as well as by those who accuse me of being irrational, dogmatic, illogical or engaging in “mental gymnaistics” etc just because they cannot accept/understand the presuppositions (axioms) of the rational framework of my faith. It is an integral part of my world-view and I do not think it is necessarily less rational than theirs. The same as an atheist’s world-view does not need to be less moral than that of a theist.

In what I myself believe about God, He certainly is “reasonable enough not to resent the conclusions you have come to”, though instead of “reasonable” I would say “magnanimous”. You see, I believe that He will reveal Himself to each one of us during the process of our dying, which - objectively measured - might take only seconds, but subjectively will be an experience lasting long enough for us to “know the truth” about why we, each one of us, was made to exist at all, and whether we deserve another existence on a higher level (heaven) or non-existence (hell). I shall not continue, since these speculations about transcendental hope, supported by nothing but (Christian) faith, are hard to communicate across different world-views.

I agree that religion, notably Christianity, is on the decline in the West (not worldwide). However I see this only as “passing through a purgatory” or a process when quantity is being traded in for quality (moral as well as intellectual).

Dear George,

Your worldview is consistent and rational. I neither can nor wish to argue with you in that area. We simply have different unprovable premises. However, I can try to understand yours and how it expresses itself.

I also agree that collective guilt can lead to excesses. Germany has confronted its past in a remarkable way. Sometimes they have gone overboard. On a visit to Sydney I was exploring the Great Synagogue as it is beautifully constructed. A woman dressed in the garments of what looked like a religious order asked me if I was Jewish. When I answered, "Yes" she looked at me with such an expression of love and admiration that I felt uncomfortable. She was a member of the Evangelical Sisters of St Mary, a Lutheran order set up by Basilea Schlink. From their website: "As a citizen of her country, Mother Basilea longed to make amends for the sins of the past in the spirit of Daniel 9 and to find practical ways of expressing love for God's chosen people." I felt such an expression of love and admiration was as uncalled for as hating me because of my antecedents. I prefer to be regarded as merely another human being rather than a stereotype or icon.

However, I think what Germany has done is better than what the US South has done after their defeat in the Civil War. They have nurtured the politics of resentment. Black people cannot be held in slavery any more, but they can be held down. I felt that the recent outburst in Congress by the representative from South Carolina where he yelled out, “You lie!” to a dark skinned president was an expression of that resentment.

If Abraham Lincoln had not been assassinated I think he would have had the wisdom to direct a healing process where the South could have come back into the Union without resentment. President Obama may have the wisdom and capability to help banish some of the resentments that reside in both US blacks and whites

david quote<<asked me if I was Jewish...When I answered,.."Yes"..she looked at me with such an expression of love and admiration that I felt uncomfortable...She was a member of the Evangelical....>>i must say that is a shocker....did you tell her that as a goy she cant get into heaven

anyhow you must know only jew can get to heaven...or is it only judeans...or just not any goy..

AJ Philips<<..you need to explain why this God of yours..is incapable or re-writing the Bible for our more modern times..Otherwise you are simply making assertions....i agree...the xtians have been subverted by the pharosees...instead of following christs messengers in series..

mahamouds words needed to be absorbed..to realise the sun is not the father...the reform left out the wrong texts...all should have been included...luther..swedenberg..mary baker eddie...a course in miracles..even the philistene heracy...god lives realmtime..se its an ongoing teaching

<<Or could it just be the more rational explanation that the Judeo-Christian faiths are based on the ignorance of simple, primitive goat herders?>>>when we see fisher know fisher of men
where we see sheppard we see shepard of men
its a common theme...know mosus followed satan/nature...for all the natural negatives

>>After all, a God that keeps us guessing with out-of-date and largely irrelevant texts is an unreasonable God.>>>egsactly thats why we can chose to reject vile
listen to his living loving logic via the still good living loving voice within
we know gods voice because it listens..hears...loves ..honours...has grace mercy infinite good and plenty...that not loving not good is not from god...why it is allowed to egsist is to reveal god judges no one..sustaining all life to live...loving the least of life equally as loving the most

Dear OUG,

Your story about, "only Jews can get to heaven,"
reminds me that Sister Mary Virgilius (my headmistress
in primary school) taught all of her classes that heaven
was reserved only for Catholics. When I asked her, "Where
does everyone else go then, when they die?" I was told,
"To Purgatory - until they converted to Catholicism!"
It wasn't long after that lesson that my father had me
removed from that school...

All this reminds me of the following joke:

A nun was teaching a class of girls and she decided to
ask each one what they wanted to be when they grew up.
Most girls answered with ,"A doctor," "Lawyer," "Teacher."
Finally one little girl said, "A Prostitute!"
The nun was shocked.
"Mary Ellen what did you say?"
"A Prostitute," repeated Mary Ellen in a clear voice.
"Oh Thank God," replied the nun looking relieved.
"I thought you said Protestant!"

Bigotry will always exist, I guess ...

david f

I appreciate your civil tone. I can learn from that.

I could not disagree with you more than your statements

'The only one who can do anything about whatever wrongs I commit is myself.' 'I think you have an intolerant, unreasonable religion.'

If man was able to fix his wrongs the cross of Christ was a total waste of time. You call it a primitive belief. I call it the greatest act of love in history.

The only unreasonable part of what you call my religion is the fact that the Son of God would die for a wretch like you and me. I suspect you measure yourself by the standards of others. It is quite likely you have lived much better than most. However if godly men who served God all their lives desperately needed a Saviour I suspect very strongly that you do to.

I once thought as U do in regards to issues pertaining to civil discourse *FoxY*

But no longer ..

It comes down to this for me, if some religions and its followers want to have their own little group limiting the aspirations of women and homosexuals, encasing the mind's of their adherents in the brain plaque of dogma by way of insidious indoctrination in private that's one thing, but if they through a variety of the world's political systems also want to project that out on mass in a very real attempt at subjugating millions of people, then that is another thing altogether.

I personally do not approve of them and make no pretense otherwise.

And that's not to say that I'm anti-Christ or otherwise. As I've said before in this place there was a time when I was cared and nurtured by a very eccentric group of Christians, but their cosmology and mentality was so radically different from the likes of *Runner & StG* as to arguably put them in a different class altogether.

To them the risen Christ is a Divine Super Being, who somehow bequeathed a portion of his Being to the whole of Humanity that we may further evolve. (Past, Present and Future generations included)

And bear in mind, their concept includes a non-corporeal essence of Humans being around before the big bang, evolving materially through mineral, plant, animal and finally to where we are now, with a future outlook of transcending our current bipedal form and going on and on forever in one form or another until the stars themselves all die out, existing temporally, then off into the non corporeal realms, and then back again, male to female to other and round and round and round.