For me, I care little about the details of these believes or any others for that matter any more BUT what I do LUV and greatly appreciate is that EVERYONE is allowed to participate.

.. and whilst I have not seen them for more than 10 years, something of the distilled essence of what they are about I choose for now to keep and nurture in my Soul, so if the likes of *StG* wants to start accusing people of hatred and intolerance whilst indulging in bigotry and prejudice themselves then let them suck it in and taste a bit of it which hopefully will give them pause to think twice before doing so again.

Dear DreamOn,

Religious institutions, as such, are not the
only arbiters of religious experience. They do
not own the Truth, for Truth cannot be owned.
Nor should they think they hold some franchise
on our spiritual life. As I've said earlier,
they are consultants and frameworks, but they
are not God Himself.

I believe that organized religious institutions
should be in for a huge transformation, for the simple
reason that people want freedom from legalistic
Churches that try to transform the simplicity of
a personal and Christian love into a world of fear
and guilt. Many people struggle to find God, they've never
be taught how. They've only been taught to keep
laws, to avoid sin, to fear hell, and to carry a
cross that they've built themselves.

As Father James Kavanaugh wrote so many years ago:

"The world has become man-centered, meaning centered,
and the individual measures the traditional truths
in terms of personal value. He refuses to accept
irrelevant sermons, a sterile liturgy, a passe
and speculative theology which explores publicly
dry and distant formulas, a law which does not explain
its own origins. He demands a pastor who reaches him
in honest dialogue. He will not be bullied by an
authoritarian demand...nor by moralizing which ignores
the true and complex context of modern life..."

These words were a soul-searching plea of a Christian
(a Catholic priest) for an evaluation of what was Christian,
and what was simply tired and imperious tradition. James
Kavanaugh wanted to remain a Christian, but he refused to
be terrorized into believing that the present structure of
his Church was an adequate representation of the Christ of
Gospel and history.

Sadly, James Kavanaugh did not get his wish.

jesus didnt die for us on the cross...lets face facts..he didnt die for our sins..no scapegoat can take the others sin..in fact someone else taking the credit...or blame..is theft...and jesus wasnt a thief..and while were about blame...see any blame needs a judgement..who are we to judge others

see jesusw died ans was bornagain...to prove death isnt dead..to prove that 'judgment day is wrong...good/god dont judge..thus no judgment day...no smouldering in graves waiting for ';reserection...lol..day..

understand that judeans believed..in this deception of a judgment day WRONGLY...jesus died to destroy that myth...jesus didnt look upon our sin...didnt die to take away our sin..but to reveal he saw no sin...see that good from god is the only truth..that lies arnt from god thus not based in gods reality...we have allowed lies into ours

lies such as holy lands when all land is wholy gods lands..all fermameant belongs to god...the lie of gods people...who living was not given their life to live from good..[god]

religious held guilt or special privledge is a delusion...that we did to the least we did to god...but we did it...how can jesus say he did it if he didnt...jesus saw no sinner..only hating the sin..you cannot hate others without hating god..that we did to the least we did to the most..

jesus reveals grace and mercy...but not for his sake but for the fathers..love god by love of neighbour..one cause for all life..[all of us livings father..one god of all living..god within us all

Hmmm .. *FoxY* .. James Kavanaugh .. I am not familiar with him, but reading your words have merged and stimulated a memory from when I was in Montpellier France in the year 2000 inside a quaint little art gallery with a lovely collection of Christian paintings.

I only did a little tertiary level art appreciation but however, suffice to say, I very much liked the early, early church works but then at some point, I forget the dates, but the choice of symbol, highlight and emphasis all quite radically changed to portray quite different things, at least in my amateurish interpretation.

Maybe there is someone else who can more articulately extrapolate on issues of significance regarding Christian (or others) Art history.

I'm thinking of the change, if there is one, between the glorification of one set of values to another using imagery.

..

Perhaps this thread may care to differentiate between what are "reasonable" feelings of guilt as distinct from those that are "unreasonable."

From here at OLO to places international, I get the sense sometimes that the world is struggling for a "universal code of acceptable behavior" or a "universal conscience."

But as of yet, at least in my limited experience, the things that divide us appear to have pre-eminence over the things that could potentially unite us.

*OUG*

If my memory serves me correctly, "to sin" in old greek, means:

" To miss the point. "

So, at least in terms of the original biblical works, as much as we know of them, the concept of dieing for our sins has little to do with with some of the views that you have just expressed. That is not to say that what you have said has no relevance, but however ...

DreamOn < "From here at OLO to places international, I get the sense sometimes that the world is struggling for a "universal code of acceptable behavior" or a "universal conscience."

I totally agree DreamOn.
I am hopeful that eventually all the people of the world (maybe through an organisation like The United Nations) will agree on acceptable behaviours for us all, as human beings.

All the different religions/Gods of the world have disagreed over so many issues over our world's history, leading to terrible wars, poverty, and heartache.

Surely leaving religion out of the equation, and just focusing on acceptable human behaviour, will lead to more world peace?