Dear DreamOn,

You obviously have not been reading my posts.
I've stated previously that I don't like
what organized religion has done to the
world. That I've come to see however,
that true religion is internal not external.
What some have done in the name of religion,
projecting their neuroses, even perpetrating
evil on the world, does not make religion as
a mystical phenomenon invalid.As I've stated
earlier - secularized
organized religions have become, in many cases,
as calcified as other institutions that form the
structure of our modern world. Again, as I've stated
previously, our religious institutions have far too
often become handmaidens of the status quo, while
the genuine religious experience is anything but that.

Experience of the spirit breaks through illusions of our
guilt and separateness. It is radically committed to the
natural goodness and inherent openess that lies at the
center of who we really are.

Anyway, we're obviously not connecting on this subject.
And I'm finding it rather tedious to keep on repeating
myself. I'm not looking to convert you or anyone else,
nor do I claim that my belief is right and yours is wrong.
It's simply right for me.
I respect your right to believe whatever
you wish. I only ask that you do me the same courtesy.
As I've written in other threads, I don't fear hell
because I can't fathom it. I don't seek heaven because
it offers no image I can grasp. I only struggle to find
myself, to love my fellow human beings, and to hope that
in this way I am truly loving God.

I shan't be responding to you any further because as I said
earlier, for me this subject has run its course.

Enjoy your day.

*FoxY*

Nobody has asked you to respond. And yes I have read your aLL your posts, but I attempt to write for everyone so no, I am not only addressing you. That doesn't make you any less important in my mind but only just as important as everyone else.

<snip - have run out of words>

Even now as we speak it is reported today that the victorian guvment are going to further modify equal opportunity legislation to allow catholics to refuse to employ gays or single mums. I wonder who the other religious organizations are going to make rules on excluding?

and Dear *DavidF*
" ... I even have some feelings that could be called spirituality. ... "

I too am not entirely devoid of thoughts/feelings/experiences that I cannot explain. Quite the contrary.

I saw an interesting documentary on Nat Geo from memory. It was about a patient who woke up from op, and promptly reported in detail to her doctor precise details of the procedure. So precise in fact, that her doctor for the sake of scientific curiosity tested her with scientific methodology. If true, and I haven't tried to verify it, the results are quite outstanding.

Maybe .. Maybe .. I make but an impartial observation and "layer not the flute with gold and jewels."

Within my lifetime I too have had a so called "Out of Body" experience. Not a lucid dream ..

Yes. An O.B.E. but not something that I overly dwell on. I just put it in the bizarre category and if nothing else, it re-inforces my belief that an open mind is a trait worthwhile practicing and that the human brain is an amazing organ.

But how can everyone keep an open mind when some institutions, on state owned property I might add, continue to indoctrinate, repress and demonise parts of the population - and often very vulnerable parts in my view?

How many gay people have suicided over church inflicted "unreasonable feelings of guilt?"

DreamOn,
In a post above I spoke of being neurotic about sex. However, had I devoted almost 700 words criticising and attacking other people’s attitude or orientation towards it, you could rightfully accuse me of being neurotic about sex myself.

The same about spirituality, religion (“organised” or not) and other matters where one’s position and orientation depends on personal preferences and life experiences (especially if they cannot be communicated across different world-views).

Belly,

I just thought I'd say that I really like your post (the one that begins with 'I believe in man'). While we differ in the sense that I am a religious person, I agree that as humans we have great potential to do good things. When you look at the world's religions, each is a collection of great (and, at times, not so great) ideas. Between the lot of them, there are some great guidelines for humanity, some inspiring stories and some thought-provoking questions. If the human mind can dream these things up, then we can be very proud to be humans. We also need a kick up the pants to keep our creative juices flowing and unite the good ideas for the sake of humanity. Maybe it's not religion, but rather religious bigotry that is the problem.

DreamOn, Sunday, 27
It is obvious that you are ignorant of the historical context of Abraham. He lived in a society where child sacrifice was practised and he was rejecting the idea of polytheism but as yet had not abandoned their cultural practises. He was having conflict in in his mind of the religious practises so his thoughts turned to a more humane way of sacrifice when he saw the goat caught in the thicket.

This was a development in his faith to be respected as he recognised El Shaddai (his celestrial and only God) did not delight in human sacrifice. It was a milestone in religious thinking and defied the cultural practises of his time.

*George*

"Freedom of Religion" i.m.o does not extend to discriminating against others on grounds of their sexual preferences or marital status. Nor does it extend to their demonisation and accusations of their behaviors being unGodly, which in turn can lead to indirect incitement to violence. So called "Poofter Bashing" was a practice which was alive and well when I was growing up in Western Australia and others more informed than I in the area have already commented on perceived religious sentiments being involved in the persecution of Gays, the Retarded and Others during WWII.

Neither does it extend to labelling
"sicko, bent, child abusing priests"
as homosexual.

And neither does it extend to inflicting "Unreasonable Religious Guilt" on children as they grow in adulthood and sexual awareness.

So, is your apparent dismissive attitude to such issues any different to the alleged dismissive attitudes of some priests when they dealt with grave accusations of child abuse?

*Philo* if you want to debate based on factual substance you are welcome, or again you are welcome if you want to express a contrary belief labeled accordingly, but if you insist on deploying belief as if it were fact then if it is not already apparent, I for one simply am unable to take you seriously.

Contrary to your comments, I am of the view that it ought be quite plain to reasonable and rational people that I did report the oral tradition fable of a different related monotheistic belief system for purposes of comparison and contrast. Your conclusions to me are not surprising.

*Otokonoko*

Bigotry is a problem. In 1971 from memory, a dearly departed friend "married" two gay girls in Perth. There was a sh!t fight championed by the likes of the bigots in the mainstream churches. That is indeed what you call complete, religious intolerance of an Australian independent denomination. They continue the practice to this day under the auspices of a ceremony entitled the *Covenant of Luv* though it is yet to have legal status pursuant to ugly Australia's tin pot marriage act.