david f

I've only been skimming this thread, so I apologize if I've taken something out of context, but this sentence rather jumped out at me.

<< The Catholic confessional is a most healthy institution. >>

Surely, David, you're not suggesting the practice of fessing up ones 'sins' to some faceless priest in a dark box and saying ten Hail Marys actually has some merit, are you?

Quite apart from the sheer absurdity of the practice itself, one has to wonder at how many sexual assaults have occurred down through the ages in the dark recesses of these archaic little boxes.

<< I wake up in the middle of the night and think of my moral failures. I recognise the pointlessness of such churning but continue with it nevertheless. >>

I'm no doubt much more of a wimp than you are, David, but I know if I was waking in the middle of the night and wrestling my moral demons, I'd be upping the magnesium or melatonin or whatever it took to have me sleeping soundly. :)

Dear Bronwyn,

I have never experienced the Catholic confessional , but I understand it's effective in discharging guilt. One can get a good night's sleep.

runner wrote: If man was able to fix his wrongs the cross of Christ was a total waste of time. You call it a primitive belief. I call it the greatest act of love in history.

Dear runner,

"I call it the greatest act of love in history." Do you know about all the acts of love in history and have some means of comparing them to each other? I am quite serious in asking as I think this is one of the formulaic statements that religious people often make without really thinking about it. By what standards can you substantiate that it is the greatest act of love in history?

There is real meaning in my statement that it is a primitive belief since there are elements in your belief that existed a long time ago.

From: “PAGAN & CHRISTIAN CREEDS: THEIR ORIGIN AND MEANING” by Edward Carpenter

About 2,000 years ago there were Temples dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, etc. Many of the following features were common in those beliefs:

(1) They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.
(2) They were born of a Virgin-Mother.
(3) And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
(4) They led a life of toil for Mankind.
(5) And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator,
Savior, Deliverer.
(6) They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
(7) And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
(8) They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to
the Heavenly world.
(9) They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples
were received by Baptism.
(10) And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals

I can't really imagine too much sexual abuse going on in a confessional. They tend to be small, cramped and uncomfortable. I'm sure it has happened (plenty of strange and distasteful things have) but I'm also sure that most lusty priests would have ample opportunity to carry out their desires elsewhere.

Dear david f
>>I have never experienced the Catholic confessional, but I understand it's effective in discharging guilt.<<
Yes, but not exclusively. For centuries the confessor was the precursor of the psychotherapist, the confessional that of his couch. At least this is how I understood my grandmother’s reminiscences about the psychological support she was receiving during the hard WWI years when she was left with five children while grandfather had to go to the front.

Now the function of confession - as I understand it, leaving out its religious meaning - is more symbolical, the priest just reciting a brief exhortation, acting more as a “psychotherapic catalyst”. There are exceptions, of course, when even in our times the priest can - or has to - still function as a counsellor, e.g. during the Communist era in East-Central Europe.

One experience convinced me about the importance of having somebody who just listens to you, who acts as a “catalyst”. One of my PhD students wanted to talk to me about a (mathematical) problem he encountered while writing up his thesis. He came, talked for half an hour, scribbled on my whiteboard and finished with a “thank you, now it is all clear” without me having opened my mouth during his exposition. I acted as a catalyst, a function that e.g. his grandmother could not have fulfilled, since his subconscious would not allow it: he would not have believed she could understand his exposition. So I played the role of a passive “mathematical catalyst”, whereas in some analogous way today's confessor plays - or should play - the role of a “psychotherapic catalyst”.

I remember my times in the Confessional quite
fondly. I used to feel quite guilty that I
didn't have that much to tell (I was in primary
school), and so I fel obliged to make some things
up so that Father Kennedy would have something
of substance to listen to. I think he finally
must have realised what I was doing, because he
told me not to come back.

There was however, one priest that all us girls
would pray he never got to hear our confessions.
The priest was as deaf as a post. And when you
got inside the Confessional he'd yell loudly,
"You did what?" While you nearly died of
embarrassment - and had the additional humiliation
of facing your giggling girlfriends
while you tried with some difficulty
to conceal your red-face as you quietly sneaked out
of the box and sat down in the nearest church pew.

Those were the days...

However, I alwsys felt better afterwards - despite
everything.

*SuzeOnLine*
" ... leading to terrible wars, poverty, and heartache. Surely leaving religion out of the equation, and just focusing on acceptable human behavior, will lead to more world peace? ... "

I'd have to include the Godless in the above assessment and note further that some of our finest scientific minds have also been devout religious people as well.

And some of history's most depraved have been from amongst the "Godless."

No, I think we need to dig deeper to quantify and qualify those universal attributes which we can all agree upon and to some extent the instruments of the UN have.

For starters, underpinning the

Freedom of Religion
is the
Freedom of Thought.

..

Some thoughts .....

I like the sound track *Enigma Deep Forest Meditation* and would like to see the progressive Spiritual/Churchies unite with the Greens, the progressive left and maybe even a few genuine blues for the Forest and traditional/organic/new tech farmers.

I want Green houses which store enough energy for the household and combine packet sell surplus generated energy back to the grid, for greater supply to industry for the development of new tech and other manufacture for enhanced local and national security via increased independence.

Also homes that filter and compost our pooskinerus direct into the home grow chamber, combining sun, artificial light, regulation of same with the assistance of gardening rangers.

In many economies the farmers don't get paid and have to subsist off the land and provide their surplus to the state. Now that it appears that the likes of red china are going to begin to mass produce green tech I expect that in addition to not paying the farmers (or perhaps just at a miserable local economy rate), households will become even more profitable to the state by contributing to the energy needs of their international product producing industrial sector.

What a crime that Aust's housing sector was not regulated to initiate this process during the boom.

Now, I'm not so deluded to think that we can perfect the energy circle and snap out 100% efficient solutions straight out,however