Dear George,

I was separating guilt from responsibility. Guilt is a feeling of having done wrong or failed in an obligation. To revel in guilt is pointless. Continued guilt without doing anything about it is simply a neurosis. I am given to that neurosis. I wake up in the middle of the night and think of my moral failures. I recognise the pointlessness of such churning but continue with it nevertheless. The Catholic confessional is a most healthy institution.

I don't have religious faith any more. You have it. If there is a God I am sure he is reasonable enough not to resent the conclusions I have come to. I am bothered by the attitude of some on this list that one is immoral or wrong simply because they do not accept certain beliefs. That means a petty deity. I have no argument with you, but I would like some on this list not to be condemnatory of others merely because they do not believe the same thing. I have been a religious believer, but I have never believed in a God that would condemn a person merely for their religious belief or lack of it. I think it ugly to believe we are born in sin.

We can try to understand each other, other people both with and without religious faith and the processes involved. I am reading "God's Funeral". It is an account of the decline of religious certainty primarily in England but also in France and Germany. It was well on its way before Darwin's publications. In fact Darwin did not bother more sophisticated believers as they accepted the findings of science as revelations of God's will.

God's Funeral is the title of Hardy's poem. Apparently the Ur skeptic was Hume. I read much on religion both by believers like St. Augustine and Maimonides and non-believers like Dawkins and Dennett. I like your postings, and I like the combination of religious belief, love and understanding in Foxy's posts. I am 83, and it gets a bit difficult to get around so OLO is really my socialising.

Runner,

<<The fact that we are born into sin makes it inevitable.>>

Speaking of original sin, what purpose did the metabolisms of Adam and Eve serve when they were immortal?

And what kind of a punishment is “You shall crawl on your belly for the rest of your days” for a snake? He certainly got off lightly, didn’t he?

<<I am surprised that you are offended as your definition of immoral is sure to be different to what the bible declares immoral.>>

That’s actually a very good point, Runner!

The God of the Bible endorses slavery and animal cruelty; commands the stoning of disobedient children. He even tells us that it’s an abomination to eat shellfish, yet it was allegedly he himself who made them edible!

Oh, and before you, or anyone else tries to claim that the Bible was written in such a way so that it could be understood by the people of those times, then you need to explain why this God of yours is incapable or re-writing the Bible for our more modern times - Otherwise you are simply making assertions.

Or could it just be the more rational explanation that the Judeo-Christian faiths are based on the ignorance of simple, primitive goat herders? After all, a God that keeps us guessing with out-of-date and largely irrelevant texts is an unreasonable God.

david f

It is your own words that will condemn you and not anyone else. The rejection of the only One who can cleanse you of your sin is yours and others greatest crime. To reject such love is equivalent to spitting in the face of the ones who love you the most. I pray you soften your heart in time.

Dear runner,

You haven't a clue as to as to what is in my heart. I am a real softy who is sometime suffused with love. Occasionally I have other emotions.

Words do not condemn anyone. Belief or the lack of it does not condemn anyone. We are condemned because we do bad things when we shouldn't and don't do good things when we should. It is not a crime to recognise your mumbojumbo for the nonsense that it is. No one can cleanse me of wrong-doing. It is a primitive idea that someone else can take one's sins away. We are responsible for our wrong-doing and we remain responsible.

The only one who can do anything about whatever wrongs I commit is myself. Runner, you may be a decent fellow, but I think you have an intolerant, unreasonable religion.

!WooF! That's amazing *StG*

By the powers of your undoubted Saintly Godliness u've devolved me into a pooch.

I think I should straight out cock my leg and relieve mySelf on U. <snicker>

Then U could be like that painting called *P!ss Christ*

;-)

A healthy vital society is not one in which
we all agree. It's one in which those who
disagree can do so with honour and respect
for other peoples' opinions, and an
appreciation of our shared humanity.

There seems to be a tendency on so many people's
parts to think their way is the right way and that
people who disagree with them are 'bad.'

We can disagree vehemently yet appropirately.
Disagreement must be respectful or the disrespect
itself poisons us more than either side's position
in the argument ever could.