I believe in man.
And in an idea that proves our worth.
That every God was made by us.
That all the great and wonderful ideas came from our minds.
Like any good book great book if you wish every play every movie that brings a tear to our eyes.
Humanity can be great it can be bad or worse but if we ever harness the ideas that bought God, any God to life we will be very much better for it.

That sounds like a bellyclose ending.

The essential aspect of the teachings of Jesus is not condemnatory but he taught forgivness even to 70 x 7 because we all fail; and we grow to be a better person by love and encouragement.

To the woman found in adultry (John 8) whom the old religious school wanted to stone he said I do not condemn you go and sin no more. To his murderers who felt he was a blasphemer he prayed for their forgivness. He was about encouragement to live a fulfilling life knowing the love of forgivness and acceptance. Those that do not know true forgivness and acceptance have the nagging sense of shame and self rejection.

It is important to be true to personal values that transcend being part of a mob.

*FoxY*
" ... To me spirituality is an inner fire, a mystical
sustenance that feeds our souls. ... "

If there is any reality to that, I am wondering, how is that U think that any of us can separate that from any variant "echo sensation" which originates in our own consciousness and has its basis in our own inner understandings and desire.

What about an example? A doco recently on laypeople entering a catholic nunnery. The short version, the girls have their consciousness soaked in Jesus talk and do affirmations of wanting to be "spiritually" united with the Savior for a period longer than a week, and then, during a "secret" catholic meditation ..!Boing! .. one of the 3 girls "hears" the voice of Jesus in her own mind and everyone is amazed and celebrates.

Same deal with the nature of hallucinations. In some cases, what the individuals are experiencing is an "echo" of sorts which likely stems from a part of the brain wherein there are localized neurochemical imbalances or functional deformities which manifest in accordance with the prevailing mood of the individual at that time.

So, if U soak yourself for an extended period in doctrine of this one is a good behavior and that one is a sin, then the mind will in all likelihood produce "echoes" of a sort in response.

Oooo ooo, I did a kind thing for Jesus and I feel good
Sob, sob, I did something very mean and now I feel bad.

That is what is called indoctrination. And propaganda? Take the little seedling and push its head under the ground so it sees no more and bring it up again in a locale of "your" own choosing.

Indeed, *DavidF* has keen insight and undoubtedly in the case of some religious practices, it is very much a case of "Unreasonable Guilt" by indoctrination because fundamentally it is not accompanied by the cultivation of intellect and insight.

The blind leading the blind perhaps, in cases other than the nefarious?

I further suspect that in the case of some organisations, that there have been so many lies told for so long that they no longer know what is real and what is not.

A fable example from something that has again been raised recently from the bible and to which again I will offer the version of the story from the Islamic perspective from a group of people who have been effectively isolated for a very long time.

..

Ibrahim (Abraham) is none too bright, and consequently none too rich, but considered a loyal and faithful servant of *Lordy* by the rest of the flock. As the Holy time arrives, he finds himself without a sacrificial beast for the blood offering and is troubled by the potential of not being forewarned of what the future may bring.

So he grabs one of the kids. At that point an Angel (the local rich guy) turns up with a goat for the poor, as is the custom, and shouts

"Ibrahim U d.head, what the !#!% r u doing? Here have a goat u silly twit."

..

And in the bent christian version, Ibrahim "hears" the voice of God and the rich guy is an angel and Ibrahim is held up as being the most loyal and faithful of them all.

And today we have the likes of "priest" pell standing up and saying:

" ... and even though Mary McKillop was treated awfully by the church leaders she still stayed faithful to them. ... " or something like that.

..

Some religious people are truly hollow in their pathetic efforts to substantiate their non-sense with bastardised books and a legal framework, deploying beliefs as if they were facts.

As to Universal conscience, the catholics in particular should be prohibited from preaching the virtues of limiting the aspirations of Woman and Gays by way of an enshrined Human Right. But then, I'm sure they'll find support from the liberal party in opposing this.

Dear DreamOn,

I do not depend on rationality alone. I have feelings which I cannot explain. I even have some feelings that could be called spirituality. I am thinking of Foxy's statement. " ... To me spirituality is an inner fire, a mystical sustenance that feeds our souls. ... "

Foxy has not contended that these feelings are rational or that she bases economic or other worldly decisions on them. We operate on different levels. I know that the light from one star may be reaching us years later or earlier than the star which is closest to it in my field of vision. I also know that the light is a consequence of nuclear reactions in the stars. However, I look up in the sky on a starry night and am filled with wonder at the sight. It is a reality that I am filled with wonder. Right now I am sitting at the computer and listening to "La Clemenza di Tito" by Mozart. I am aware of what goes into a computer as I used to design them. I am also aware of the laws of physics by which the sounds of the overture are reaching my ear.

Nevertheless I have a feeling of wonder that my mind is generating thoughts that make strokes on the keyboard which will be translated to meaning which Foxy and you may react to. A soprano is singing, and I am reacting to the female voice. I am aware on another level that my reactions are dependent to some extent on natural selection of the many generations before me who have reacted to the voices of the opposite sex with the result that I am here.

Foxy also wrote: “We have to recognise that our individual minds create our collective realities and we have to take responsibility for the world by taking more seriously our individual contributions to it.”

Foxy and you have no reality to me other than what I get through the medium of electronic pulses. That is also a source of wonder.