YEBIGA “the delusion Howard and you share.”

I can assure you, any “delusions” which you fatuously claim others might suffer, certainly do not apply to me.

Regarding “If the only value you have”

I obey the law and value the standards which Australia was bequeathed from its British Legal precedence.
I value honesty and do not cheat on my taxes.
I make effort to conduct my business affairs in an ethical manner and when anticipating a response to a commercial agreement consider, in the instance of ambiguity, what the ethic response should be.
I value my family (actually I come with a reference from one of my ex-wives)
I have the privilege of having 12 close friends who love me and saw me through the darkest days of my life, some 5 years ago, I value every one of them.
I value my Australian citizenship.
I value the freedom and right to make my own mistakes.
I value living in a democracy and fervently support democratic principles.
I value the creative works of Canaletto, Celine and Mozart
I value freedom of expression and debate (I might disagree with everything you say but will always defend your right to say it).

I could go on all night about what I “value” but will stop here, for I also value expediency.

As for “Howard has seriously fractured the trust between the government and its citizens.”

Only a fool “trusts” government.
The Westminster tradition (the basis of Australian Parliamentary democracy) has always been a matter of emotive passions where words like “trust” are bandied around like lollies before children.

I would recall Comments which were exchanged between politicians Pitt and Fox (or Wilkes and Montagu or apparently Gladstone and Disraeli too)

"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the pox," said One,
To which the Other replied, "That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

“Trusting politicians” elevate folly to the heights of an artform.

Leave me to make my own mistake's, I find it cheaper than trusting a politician to make them for me.

Col: ""You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the pox," said One, To which the Other replied, "That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." "

Priceless. I might often disagree with Col, but the comment containing that quote was brilliant :)

However, it's unimaginable that such an exchange could take place between Howastello and Rudd, isn't it? There isn't a thimble of wit between them.

Are we doomed to an inevitable contest between a couple of godbothering softcocks?

Col,

Society is a vast network of trust. We agree to drive on the left-hand side of the road, and we trust others to comply; we agree to provide certain goods, and we trust others to pay for them; we agree to observe the rules of an organisation, and we are trusted to enjoy its privileges. This complicated network into which every detail of our lives is interwoven and almost all of our expectations are based, is the essential fabric of society. Without this trust there is no society. We are left hiding in caves.

As Hobbes said, life would be "nasty, brutish and short".

With this trust, individuals and organisations can co-operate and establish the relatively predictable patterns essential to peace and freedom.

I feel the Howard Government has undermined this trust:

Because of our involvement in an illegal war; because of the terror laws, because of the wilful neglect of the likes of David Hicks; Because of the inhumane behaviour of our immigration department towards refugees and citizens; Because although Howard claims we are enjoying unprecedented wealth, yet we have never been so niggardly towards our poor and sick. Because we have longer and longer hospital waiting lists; because each year our tertiary education becomes less accessible; because the current generation of corporates' has created nothing but a bigger quarry since 1996 - where is the new computershare; because Howard has created a climate where noone can even explore solutions to our continental water crisis in any real way for fear of being accused of being too radical; because our media is now in so few hands that inevitably the lack of debate has turned us all into cretins. Because I have to listen to the BBC or NPR to hear what the rest of the world is thinking.

Because Amanda Vanstone eats refugees, Philip Ruddock is self administering sleep deprivation, Alexander Downer knew nothing about AWB, and Howard knew the Iraqis' had WMDs.

YEBIGA “I feel the Howard Government has undermined this trust:”

I would suspect you have experienced few governments, that is observation, not intended as criticism.

My point, I suggest similar “failings” in politicians of other persuasions.

Most recently, the Victorian “Eastern Freeway”, which the Victorian Labor party lied about and lost $400 million of federal money by turning it into a tollway.

Keatings “the recession we had to have” was another lie.

I recall another Keating famous lies,

RE http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s301486.htm

“The 'L.A.W'. law tax cuts of the Keating Government that year, they were very important for Keating's victory at that election . . . Some weren't delivered.”

I recall how Bob Hawke was an adulterer, the stench of lies accompanies such deceit (I am twice divorced but neither time tainted by any infidelity on my part).

I remember how, surprise, after the failure of the Keating socialist government Keatings marriage collapsed (girlfriend in the background)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/20/1082395850666.html?from=storyrhs

Everyone will recall how Senator Gareth Evans and Leader of the Social Democrats had their dalliances announced, http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/03/1025667007922.html
Where I quote “Gareth Evans, the former foreign minister and deputy Labor leader, lied to Parliament about a five-year affair with Labor's star recruit Cheryl Kernot,”

I remember socialist who did deals with unions behind closed doors.

I could go on all night listing the lies which politicians of every colour and hue have fobbed off onto the electorate and I am left with one compelling consideration,
If we accept that politics is a lying business, better to minimize the damage.

I vote liberal for one simple reason, I believe the Liberal/Conservative wing of politics will leave me alone to make my own mistakes and, unlike the socialist and their agenda of continuous social engineering, not increase taxes to make the mistakes for me.

Call me cynical if you wish, I must admit it is not a very laudable reason for voting, because I mistrust one political party less than I mistrust another but we all have to come to some resolution of what we believe and that is what I believe.

Col,
I too have no love for any of our political parties. I too have very low expectations of our politicians.

I am not outraged in the least by my differences with Howards' economic policies - it is to be expected. I acknowledge his cunning and his competence, even if I don't quiet fawn over his acheivements.

My outrage is with this governments treatment of our rights. You are far too comfortable with the excesses. What was Hicks doing in Afghanistan anyway, you may think? And if it were merely Hicks than I too would be less concerned. But it is Solon, Rau, and innumerable other citizens and refugees. It is the Terror laws and their shameful abuse. It is the undermining of parliamentary debate with the legislated jocker - National Security.

While, you may take comfort that this has nothing to do with you, I believe it has everything to do with all of us. Every one of these injustices is an attack on you too. This is much more than a broken political promise and far more dangerous. This is the social contract and with each small betrayal of our trust, each new outrage becomes more acceptable.

Howard has fractured the mainstream community between Muslims and Christians. Slowly, perhaps, but inevitably hearts are hardened and anger grows. I don't think either of us wish to see this country descend into violence and hatred. and if you piss off enough people long enough it is inevitable.

Todate, you have refused to respond or acknowledge this. Instead, you entertain yourself by painting me as some kind of left wing nutter. I understand your angst but this is an issue which transcends the petty economic squabbles of left and right.

YEBIGA “Instead, you entertain yourself by painting me as some kind of left wing nutter.”

I have endeavoured to paint you of no political hue at all.

As for outrage, I too have been outraged by many things but have decided, I will measure each outrage as it applies to me personally and base my support or otherwise for those which do not on the certainty not just that “what is reported is not always the truth”
but “what is reported is, invariably, not all of the truth”, for reasons of security (this would include references to Hicks) and maybe just expediency.

My samples of lies and deceits of politicians from the other side of politics to the incumbent government was to help you balance your view or at least recognize, what you claim to decry in the government is far less than what I can evidence in the opposition.

You have no evidence of John Howard “fracturing” Muslim-Christian relations.

All Muslims need to understand that Australia is a secular state populated predominantly by “Christians”. It is worth noting that if Muslims cannot handle that fact, they should consider their own future because, we should not pretend that sharia law or other trappings of Muslim fundamentalism will ever prevail here.

“Todate, you have refused to respond or acknowledge this.”

If you wish me to respond to something specific, ask it directly in the form of a question, rather than allude to it in rant and I will do my best to comply with your request.

“I understand your angst”

Actually the “angst” is all yours.

As a politician, John Howard, (the object of your angst) is far more ethical than any labor prime minister since WWII.
Hawke is an adulterer, Keating an arrogant buffoon (and possible adulterer) and Whitlam a deluded pompous bore who managed to get himself sacked through acts of arrogance and incompetence.
Latham was floated as a possible alternate prime minister and showed his true colour in his sad book of memoirs.
I wonder what we will find out about Rudd as time goes by