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The Forum > General Discussion > How to beat Howard and why

How to beat Howard and why

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There will be no Federal change of Government, until an ALP leader has the courage to give voice to this Nations' repressed outrage.

Australia's Pysche has been damaged. Howard has played Mephistopheles to our Faust and we purchased the bargain. In return, we have sacrificed Australia.

If Norm of "life be in it" was representative of our old "long weekend culture" it is now represented by Norman: an overweight financial planner, who after 12 hours in the office loves nothing better than to watch reality TV. What's wrong with that, well Norm had values, family and mates. Whilst, Norman he has a plan and a network.

Norman, is fitter, he does not smoke or drink excessively but he suffers from a myriad of anxieties and needs anti-depressants to cope with the sterility of his existance. His wife, if she is still with him, is perpetually dieting. Whilst, his kids are overwieght and wont leave the house or the internet. Life's highlights are an investment property, upgrading the car, mobile and internet access.

Norman is too busy for opinions. Names like Hicks, Rau, Jihad Jack Thomas, Habib, Avarez Solon are merely background noise. He may recall a picture of a dry river bed, references to global warming, or Iraq. But to be honest, none of this rates with his primary concern: the value of his home, and investments.

This country is performing well economically because of China - not because of John Howard. Not because of our manufacturing or technological creativity. Howard has created a mirage: doubling the value of our assets, the increased equity has bankrolled our gratuitous desires, convincing us we are richer.

Howard deserves credit for balancing the books; he deserves our indignation for everything else. His is an ideoligical crusade: contemptuous of Australia's history, culture and constitution.

Norm of "life be in it" would have Howard, Ruddock and Vanstone arrested, charged and incarcerated.
Posted by YEBIGA, Monday, 4 December 2006 11:09:28 PM
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I think Rudd can do just that..its early, yes, but promising.
Posted by holyshadow, Monday, 4 December 2006 11:47:28 PM
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I like your psychological take.

But i don't think for a momment that the majority of Australians vote for the benefit of the nation. They vote for themselves first and foremost.

And its why they have such a problem defining what Australian values and being Australian means. It requires them to think collectively across class and color religion and environments.

They have not yet developed a real sense of place. Just an imagined sense of community.

So they vote for their back pockets or out of fear of the unknown.
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 12:17:29 AM
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If the nation’s rage is “repressed”, how do you know about it, YEBIGA? I’m not aware of any “rage”, but of course I don’t know anymore than you do if it is repressed. I would have thought that we were still jogging along on the usually half and half – 50% happy, 50% not so happy, with the “swingers” eventually making the decision.

Just how is our psyche damaged? And how have we sacrificed Australia?
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 10:12:41 AM
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There will be no change of government until the people realise that the real choice is not labor or liberal, but this choice is the new grass roots party for all the people.

The Australian Peoples Party

want to know more

email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au

You do have a real choice
Posted by tapp, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 10:33:17 AM
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I think we do need a new party. A Conservative Party . I find both current middle of the road parties too centrist,too high taxing,
too much middle class and corporate welfare.
Posted by bern, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 11:39:32 AM
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You are all living in a dream world of your own if you think that:
1) There is a rage out there
2) That the incumbent Federal Government is going to change.

No rage exists out there,just the poor middle class attempting to survive, and doing an extremely bad job at it due to the impossible high cost of living. No one can afford houses, cars, etc anymore and it is going to get worse. However our society as well is living in a dream world of it's own as it remains urging the general population to spend more and giving the impression that they still can do so which of course causes it to go further into debt. Nothing is further from the truth. It cannot.However the general population keeps trying so consequently it does not a fig who is in power and why. All it is interested in is to live as comfortably as possible and attempt, not succeed, in paying itself out of a debt crisis
Posted by roarer, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 12:15:12 PM
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Liegh,
You ask how our Psyche has been damaged and how have we sacrificed Australia?

Well, before Howard:

Australia exercised prudence in Foriegn Affairs and repected its own legal institutions. We protected our citizens, provided rights to immigrants and compassion to refugees; delivered equity in Education and Health. We were global leaders in environmental policy and international law.

We were by no means perfert but we were a respected member of the global community. Our social policy record placed us amongst the world leaders in Scandanavia.

That explains how we have sacrificed Australia. In asking your question, you display how much our psyche is damaged.
Posted by YEBIGA, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 12:18:42 PM
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A Brilliant post YEBIGA !

Leigh asks "Just how is our psyche damaged?"

Leigh, I don't believe there is enough room in this post to begin.

Let me try..

IR laws. It is now illegal to organise a strike for better conditions. This is in direct contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Sec 20 (1)). The government of Australia has drawn a pact with the corporations to punish workers if they even complain about conditions.

Howard's henchmen went even further against the UDHR in Article 23 Sections(4): "Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests." Sure you have the right to join a union, but don't get bloody caught actually trying to use that to your advantage, especially when being asked (coerced) into signing an AWA.

Moreover Article 23 section (3)states: "Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection." So, what protection is there in Australian law? Ask the profoundly disabled man who was refused any disability support because he couldn't work x hours per week. He was so disabled that he couldn't open the Centrelink door to attend his assessment !

Want more evidence Leigh? How about this?

Detention and Imprisonment

Article 7 of the UDHR: " All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination."

and

Article 9.: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."

Phillip Ruddock has imprisoned these rights with his Nazi-styled security laws.

Anyone who doesn't see these blatant violations of our internationally recognised rights cannot see how our own psyche is damaged.

Now ask again, how is our psyche damaged? In allowing this evil government to steal our civil rights !

Anyone interested? see here..
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Posted by Iluvatar, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 3:21:56 PM
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Hi there...YEBIGA

I've read and re-read your short thread, and in part I agree with you. Your comparison with the figure 'Norm' with respect to the so called Psychic harm the Howard Government has done to us all is quite novel, I must say.

I'm in my mid-sixties and have always supported the conservatives by and large, and voted accordingly. You say there is evidence of a 'rage' in the community. And implied that the Government must be defeated at all costs. Why ? Has Messrs Howard and Rudduck, and Ms Vanstone really done that much harm and damage to our country and our external reputation, that they need to be 'locked-up' as criminals ? I'm not really sure,Yabiga. On a purely personal level though, I don't hold truck with any of them, to be honest. In my humble opinion, with some exceptions, I reckon they're ALL morally corrupt ! But I guess that's another story.

Kind regards...O Sung Wu
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 3:36:15 PM
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I believe that Australia has been brought into international disrepute over the AWB corruption scandal in Iraq. I believe that Howard, Downer and Vaile [and possibly others] justifiably have a case to answer over this. The fact that this doesn't currently look like happening is a further slur on Australia's international reputation.
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 4:03:39 PM
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rainier's comment "But i don't think for a momment that the majority of Australians vote for the benefit of the nation. They vote for themselves first and foremost." perfectly sums up the situation.
unfortunately, this attitude is driven by shareholders who have no qualms about fellow australians losing their jobs to cheap labour countries due to geater profits by outsourcing to such countries. does telstra - india ring a bell ? previous labor administrations have built up a huge public service because that's their backbone & the conservatives in order to remain in power have no option but to continue along the same lines. third world countries do not view outsourcing labour to them as a compliment or priviledge. on the contrary, they see it as an insult because they know the real reason is that they are being exploited due to greed and a total lack of patriotism in this country.
Posted by pragma, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 6:40:08 PM
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You know beating liberal or labor is up to us but that is where your problem is.

As you know all it takes is one person but then its up to you.

Email me at :swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

But there is a problem you wont because you will just keep talking about it.
For one of you to email is a chance but then you have an opinion which can be passed on.
So who will it be.
I myself am as i believe honest so dont give me any bull just say what you think.
And this is what doesnt happen.
Give me a chance.
It is actually good as i have been told
Posted by tapp, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 7:16:16 PM
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It is no good replacing Howard for Rudd.
They are both flower pot men,Bill and Ben.
The language they answer to is 'flob a lot."
At the end of the day the Liblab coalitian party answer firstly to the Macquarie bank board then Murdoch and Packer.
Whitlam had a dream free medical treatment for all.
Regional governments controlling their own destinys,
Weak State governments or even scrapping them altogether.
In an ideal Australia we would stand strong against foreign investments and governments.
Currently we have state governments selling out Australia.
Plus competing with each other as is now happening on the Victorian border with the Heywood pulp mill of Victoria competing with the Penola Pulpmill of South Australia.
Look up on Google to see if the mills are different.
Have fun!
Posted by BROCK, Tuesday, 5 December 2006 8:31:44 PM
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Brock, Kapp and to a lesser extent Sung Wu.

The word cynic originates from ancient Greece. It was a derogative description. Cynics where persons who had abandoned all hope for humanity and where accused of literally living like stray dogs - they were often kicked by citizens as they lay on the side of the road bemoaning our lot.

The human condition is irrational. I have sympathy for the cynic but it is a hopeless position. It is not a view I want my children to adopt. It is indeed an invalid position. As humans we should be proud of so many of our achievements. Our valid criticisms do not negate our acheivements. They are merely attempts to avert or minimise regression.

Howard is the catalyst for our most recent regression. I however, maintain a firm secular belief, that, at some point we will inevitably move forward - as we have throughout history. Then, the actions of Howard, Ruddock, Vanstone and others will be univerally condemned. They will probably escape incarceration but they will not escape their own conscience. Whilst on a National level, their errors will serve to make this country stronger and perhaps ensure we never ever regress to this shameful point again.

I have to believe this.
Posted by YEBIGA, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:22:10 AM
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yebiga,
you're confusing labor with howard and whitlam and keatinge with ruddock and vanstone.
doesn't the library on your planet regularly update its literature ?
Posted by pragma, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 4:25:57 AM
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Oh lots of beating of breast and renting of clothing.

As a regular and consistent Liberal voter, it might be worthy those who see such problems with Liberal government asking

“why did Keating Lose?”

“Why has Labor been in opposition for the past decade”.

I could tell you but you would not believe me, you need to find out for yourself.

In the meantime, I will be happy to continue in my own erroneous way, safe in the knowledge that Liberals will allow me to make my own errors, instead of Labor who will endeavour to make the mistakes in my name, with my taxes by reducing my choices and liberty.

Ronald Reagan started the shift away from nanny states, Margaret Thatcher reinforced it as she broke the stagnation endemic in British Industry from decades of "social ownership".

To his credit, Hawke went along with the trend and started the “level playing field” movement toward freer trade. The incumbent Liberal government has continued the trend, with excellent results.

Here I read how the Luddites are still beating their breasts and renting their clothing but they would always do that. They are a tiny minority, fortunately the ethos of the government allows them space to be wrong, a courtesy which, unfortunately, they do not reciprocate.
Posted by Col Rouge, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 8:08:23 AM
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Come on now, YEBIGA. You are merely displaying you own bias – which you are perfectly entitled to do – not answering the question. For the last 10 years, people of the opposite bias have been electing and returning the Howard Government. There is no practical difference between the two parties in any of the matters you mention in your second paragraph. You and I are obviously on opposite sides of the fence, politically, but it makes absolutely no difference to either of us which party is in government. Life goes on exactly the same. I loathed Bob Hawke and Paul Keating (still do) but they had no effect on my life.

By the way, do you think Hawke’s foray into Iraq with Bush Snr. Was “prudent”, or how about Keating’s upsetting Malaysia and Asia in general? Let’s go back to Whitlam and East Timor. How about that?

Who says we are not a respected member of the global community?

What miraculous powers do you possess that allow you to make comments on my psyche?

I think that you are just a Labor stooge. Intelligent people are not fooled by the silly, ‘Liberal bad, Labor good’ and vice versa rhetoric of the type you espouse. Neither of them are much good in my book.

And, I’m still waiting to hear about this rage you talk about. If it’s of the sort directed against the IR laws (which I admit do not affect me, and on which I have heard conflicting stories from people who are affected) then I don’t think you will be able to come up with the goods. The IR furore has died down already (as evidenced by the poor turnout against it recently) and will probably be a non-issue by election time – just like the GST. Was it “rage” that got Howard back in after he introduced the GST?
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 8:19:43 AM
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To beat them this is how

You know beating liberal or labor is up to us but that is where your problem is.

As you know all it takes is one person but then its up to you.

Email me at :swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

But there is a problem you wont because you will just keep talking about it.
For one of you to email is a chance but then you have an opinion which can be passed on.
So who will it be.
I myself am as i believe honest so dont give me any bull just say what you think.
And this is what doesnt happen.
Give me a chance.
It is actually good as i have been told
Posted by tapp, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 8:32:35 AM
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Leigh,
Sorry to disappoint, but while I may have utter contempt for the Howard Government, I do not gravitate towards any of the parties. I probably would prefer Peter Costello to Kevin Rudd as Prime Minister.

People really should try expand this two dimensional view of the world, where your either with us or against us.

My position is plane - Howard has betrayed this Nation, its constitution, and its reputation. His Australia is nasty. He has most cynically appealed to the very worst in us to win and retain government.

One example
Last week, during question time in the senate. Senator Stott Despoja (no I am not an Australian Democrat either) asked a question of the government to explain why one of the fellows who inspired the film "road to gauntanamo" was denied a visa to promote the movie now showing in this country.

A normally boysey, brash chamber fell into an embarassed silence before and following the governments' response - " Due to issues of national security we are unable to answer the Senators' question".

Col Rouge
For what its worth, I have a lot of respect for Malcom Fraser.

I think Keating lost because he gave us the recession we had to have. This is of course both true and superficial. The ALP had been in power 13 years. The various leeches which every government will inevitably attract had corrupted the party.

Howard of course is a different beast entirely.
Posted by YEBIGA, Wednesday, 6 December 2006 12:59:23 PM
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“Howard has betrayed this Nation, its constitution, and its reputation. His Australia is nasty. He has most cynically appealed to the very worst in us to win and retain government.”

“Betrayal”

Nation – show examples before I answer that.

Constitution – Well again we have not had an event which has produced a constitutional challenge, not even a referendum that I recall.

Reputation – well again, reputations are fleeting things, that we do not kow tow to every foreign government or UN secretary generals prissy expectations of us does our reputation no harm at all. That we place emphasis on holding to a position of reason and logic over Kyoto when the Europeans have already decided how to engineer the process to best suit themselves, regardless of the implications to our economy shows strength and foresight. I note the one time leader of the federal opposition was happy to bare his backside and suggest we do the same to placate the hysteria of global warming fanatics (in Kim case, anything for a vote).

“Nasty” the best thing about this government is they allow us all to decide to be “nasty” or otherwise. They do not force us to be “politically correct”. They do not tax us to make us philanthropic beyond our means. They do not impose collective responsibility on me, forcing me to subsidise the lifestyle of stupid girls who get themselves banged-up or the comforts of the indolent who cannot be bothered to get a job.

The Liberals have run the economy on the lean and prudent manner resulting in people achieving with less government interference.

We do not want a state which is responsible for everything and no one responsible for the state.

Such a scenario is the worst sort of government. That sort practiced in East Germany. The sort which people risked their lives to escape from.

Whilst Whitlam produced the biggest constitutional crisis, Hawke had the charismatic cynicism which you speak of (I recall how he trumped Hayden on the eve of the election) and Keating was "arrogance" personified.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 7 December 2006 6:44:02 AM
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Col Rouge [= Neck Red]: "“Nasty” the best thing about this government is they allow us all to decide to be “nasty” or otherwise."

I imagine that, on the basis of Col's usually gratuitously vituperous comments in this forum, this would be one of his chief reasons for supporting the lying rodent's government.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 7 December 2006 7:13:36 AM
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CJ Morgan has discovered the word "gratuitous".
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 7 December 2006 8:13:28 AM
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To beat them this is how

You know beating liberal or labor is up to us but that is where your problem is.

As you know all it takes is one person but then its up to you.

Email me at :swulrich@bigpond.net.au
Australian Peoples Party

But there is a problem you wont because you will just keep talking about it.
For one of you to email is a chance but then you have an opinion which can be passed on.
So who will it be.
I myself am as i believe honest so dont give me any bull just say what you think.
And this is what doesnt happen.
Give me a chance.
It is actually good as i have been told

also

Aged and Disabled care policy

People with Disabilities Policy

Policing and Crime Policy

Personal Responsibilities Policy

Politicians Responsibility Policy

Veteran Affairs Policy

Industrial Relations Policy

These are real
Posted by tapp, Thursday, 7 December 2006 10:25:43 AM
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Leigh "CJ Morgan has discovered the word "gratuitous"."

It fits perfectly with most of what he posts,

"free" being at the lower end of "cheap".
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 7 December 2006 1:52:13 PM
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"The Liberals have run the economy on the lean and prudent manner resulting in people achieving with less government interference."

– show examples before I answer that.

The Howard Govt. is larger than the Keating Govt. The tax act is reams larger, the GST has made every business a tax collector, red tape on small business is vastly increased.

They have outsourced the job network to a defacto bureaucracy, give ABC learning 44% of their income, allow 1680 people per day, who should be in aged care, take up hospital beds.

They have done absolutely nothing Col?
Posted by Steve Madden, Thursday, 7 December 2006 2:15:30 PM
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Col Rouge,

What a pity someone with your obvious intelligence is stuck within such a narrow range of perception.

Have you ever heard of String Theory. It is a physics theory, primarily applying theroretical mathematics to help solve the riddles of the universe. Anyway, if string thoery proves to be correct: the universe has actually 10-11 dimensions. Imagine that!

In a two-dimensional universe, you and Howard are probably right about everything. But with the assistance of the 4th dimension, time, the cartoon will end, soon enough.
Posted by YEBIGA, Thursday, 7 December 2006 2:21:13 PM
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Col I wonder if you saw The Navigators on SBS last night. It was set in Sheffield and charts the privatisation of British Rail from the employees standpoint. I wonder how much contact you have had with the UK since you emigrated in 1979? Your love of all things Thatcher is perhaps out of touch.

I am reminded of a Greek girl whose family had migrated to Australia in 1961. Dad was always on at it his daughter for her 'loose' morals ie going to nightclubs, wearing skimpy dresses, arguing back - the usual. Anyway papa visited Greece after an absence of 25 years and was chastened to discover that Athens had the highest rate of unmarried mothers in Europe. Daughter was triumphant.

I wonder how you would have fared under Thatcher and whether any of your school or uni friends remained in the UK. As you studied in London - you clearly can't be from there - you might be from the north.

Seriously - if you liked dear margaret so much - why didn't you stay in the UK?
Posted by billie, Thursday, 7 December 2006 2:27:09 PM
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Some reasons to vote against Howard's liberals and the Nationals:
They have: 1. Taken away Lawfull Indigenous Rights via the Wik Laws.
2.Trying to do the ostrich job and deny Australia's Holoucast - the generally Violent White Colonisation of some 250 distinct ancient Aboriginal language groups.
3. His inability to say SORRY [and getting plenty of backup from his rednecked mates ] for past injustices to Aboriginal People - AND then blaming the States or the people themselves for their present depressive,tragic state of health and the lack of resources afforded them.
4.Looking like "honest John" and then producing the Tampa Affair and allowing ministers and others off the hook .
5.Ignoring the wishes of the Australian People and the advice of experts by sending Australia to war in Iraq to look for non- existant WMDS and oust Sadam Hussein , our old ally against Iran .Just Who did give the Americans this Intelligence??
Estimated US dollar cost for this inhuman debacle THREE TRILLION DOLLARS by the time it ends -defeat or failure .And what is the life of an Iraqi worth to his or her family?
6.Doing nothing to help make peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians .
7.For paying off the National Debt by taxing the poor and destitute and then lessening the tax of the rich .
8.Allowing Australian familys to run up huge unsustainable personal debts without worrying about the future; all it seems in the name of "MORE Choice" and the unsustainable GROWTH DISEASE .
9.Ignoring climate change "In the National Interest".

10.For making me being less proud to be an Australian . That annoys the hell out of me .
Sorry John .
Posted by kartiya jim, Thursday, 7 December 2006 9:17:05 PM
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Nearly left it out,how could I forget it :
11 . Howard's "how I will beat the Chinese and Indians at their own game"- the AUSTRALIAN WORKERS with no CHOICES LEGISLATION.
cheers, kartiya.
Posted by kartiya jim, Thursday, 7 December 2006 10:11:34 PM
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Indeed, billie - I watched it too and of course Howard's brave new industrial world came to mind. How depressing. It was like 'The Full Monty' without the humour and hope.

Good point about these Thatcherite fanatics who migrate to Australia and preach their antisocial doctrines that are incompatible with 'Aussie values'. They remind me of a certain other demographic, except they don't have the redeeming features of an interesting cuisine, exotic music etc with which to enrich our culture.

And of course we won't talk about the cricket...
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 8 December 2006 7:12:54 AM
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No billie, I did not see “the Navigators”, It seems an ironic name for a show which presents anything about railways (not much need for navigators when running on fixed rails).

I could anticipate what the programme would have been like.

It probably had a lot about how the loyalty of generations was cast aside by ruthless politicians intent on crushing workers (yawn).

I doubt it showed any interviews with rail passengers and tax payers who were, for decades held to ransom by a moribund state monopoly.

Sheffield was famous for metalwork, cutlery and all sorts of things. Its problems were not because the railways were privatized but because of a whole range of things including resurgent competition (where is cutlery made today?). The spirit of competition, on which the great UK manufacturing marques were founded, is the first thing to disappear in a monopolistic or oligopolistic environment (be it private or government owned).

Railway people were whining about the impact on the security of their livelihood from the day Beeching was appointed. I know, I was brought up in such a household and determined that I would never allow my future to be dominated by any particular employment dependency.

Regarding me and UK, I was born and raised in Southampton, I studied my accountancy course near Birmingham, I moved to London, for the right sort of work, around 1977/78 and Australia in 1983. My intention was originally to move to Australia around 1975 (before Maggie became PM) but accountants were not in demand in Australia so had to wait until they were. Still have family and friends in UK and went back once, 1989.

I have better things to do with my life than stay anywhere simply because of the politicians, although avoiding the wrong sort of politicians did deter me from going some places.

The whole point with privatization and ex-nationalised industries is, no ones job should be underwritten by government. If a company and its employees cannot stand on their own commercial merit, they do not deserve to be allowed to perpetually leach off the tax payer.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 8 December 2006 8:55:47 AM
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CJMorgan, “Those Thatcherite fanatics who migrate to Australia … incompatible with Aussie values”

I guess suggesting you try and deploy subtlety would be wasted.

My “Thatcherite fanaticism” is the sort of values which say, you are free to make all the mistakes and errors in your life instead of allowing a bunch of know-all socialist politicians tell you which ones they are going to make for you, ensuring they deliver the minimal standards for the maximum price and the maximum loss of choice.

My “Thatcherite fanaticism” is to deploy the sort of values which saw me, last Saturday, training nine sales staff to go out and sell the products / services of the company I founded. What are you doing to help sustain record low unemployment levels and generate trade and business from which wealth is created and incomes and taxes paid?

As for “red neck” I thought I made it clear, it is no coincidence, I deliberately chose “Col Rouge” as a nom-de-plume for my own amusement. Is it petty jealousy which drives you to repeat it at nearly every opportunity you get? I could understand that, envy has been one of the primary motivators of luddites throughout history.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 8 December 2006 9:23:47 AM
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Col,

You flatter yourself if you think that anyone envies you.

You said: “They do not impose collective responsibility on me, forcing me to subsidise the lifestyle of stupid girls who get themselves banged-up or the comforts of the indolent who cannot be bothered to get a job.”

Kartiya jim makes a good point about the three trillion dollars spent on the US colonial adventure. The millions/billions spent by this government on an illegal, mass-murdering invasion and occupation is nothing short of an imposition on me and everyone else who opposed the war. Average working people are ‘subsidising’ an imperialist grab for oil with their living standards and their lives. Working people are subsidising the lifestyles of the executives of Halliburton et al.

You talk about “collective responsibility” - average people are forced to be collectively responsible while those who perpetrated this colossal crime against humanity duck for cover. Even if one did agree with it, now that its execution has been shown to be so obviously incompetent, none of its senior prosecutors take responsibility – except for Rummy the fall guy.

So 655,000 and counting Iraqis take responsibility, 3000 odd and counting dead working class Americans and 25,000 and counting injured working class Americans take responsibility, dead and injured working class troops of other countries, working people of all participating countries facing cuts to social services to pay for the war take responsibility. Who doesn’t take responsibility? The rich – they get tax cuts and amass more and more obscene amounts of wealth, and their children don’t die.

Yes Col, as usual your logic is flawed. Not that you will admit it. You have learnt from your heroes - deny, deny, deny and lie, lie, lie.
Posted by tao, Friday, 8 December 2006 9:49:34 PM
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Yebiga,string theory and the 11 other universes sound very sexy,but we live in the reality of this universe,which doesn't tolerate fools or people who don't pay attention to the laws of survival.

John Howard produced the goods even before the resources boom of recent years,yet a Labor State Govt has NSW on the brink of recession while the rest of Aust prospers?

Now it takes a lot of talent the bring the most powerful economy in Aust to it's knees in times of plenty.Imagine what the Iemma Labor Govt could do in a really depressed economy.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 8 December 2006 11:46:35 PM
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Steve Madden, GST, Wharf and Employment reform, that is not “doing nothing”. Arjay has made similar observation which I will not repeat.

As for tax collectors, plenty of businesses were dealing with far more complex sales tax regimes before GST and if you want “complex” we could talk about FBT, the horror to end all horrors for complexity and pointlessness, a hang over of Hawke / Keatings twisted envy and on the table to be dumped.

To compensate the GST the states were supposed to remove a whole raft of taxes but they drag their feet, Bracks even invented his own new “car-parking space tax”.

As for cost of government, tax as a % or GDP is lower than under Keating. The “tax take” is higher from an economy which is booming because quality of federal management is better.

I wrote on another thread, had labor been in power the past 10 years, we would have experienced another recession in 2000 (as a fallout of the “dotcom” bust), burgeoning double digit inflation, from a tax revenue shortfall versus profligate infrastructure spending and union bribes to be followed by going to the IMF with the begging bowl.

In terms of government, “not running the economy like a chook raffle” is “doing plenty”.

YEBIGA “narrow range of perception.” you have insufficient data concerning me to make any such assumption.

String theory, “if string thoery proves to be correct”.

Are you suggesting running the national economy and the offices of government based on an unproven theory?

“In a two-dimensional universe, you and Howard are probably right about everything.”

That makes me ahead on “predictable quality” than socialists who, on a one, two, three or four dimensions are right about nothing.

If you want a debate about arraysdimensions, I suggest we do it somewhere other than a political forum. I have always found it difficult to represent those 11 dimensions to any audience. If you try it with your average socialist, you will carry them through the scalars but lose them in the vectors and scare them s**tless beyond that.
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 9 December 2006 9:35:43 AM
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Tao “think that anyone envies you.”
Even on a boring day, I could not care less about other peoples negative emotions.

Re Iraq. Plenty of things undertaken by government might conflict with our individual views.
Such is the nature of democracy, the worst form of government, except for every other form which has ever been tried.

Those murdered and tortured by the baathists?
If you are telling us do not support the removal of Saddam Hussein, then you are complicit in the crimes which he undertook and carry the blood of his victims on your hands.

When you get elected, you will have greater influence, until then you are demonstrating the empty rattle of the little man.

For myself, I choose to cut my path through life without the fetters of an employer and with less government involvement than would be the case if the small minded, envious political luddites and engineers of socialism ruled.

I would remove all the wasteful “offices of nothingness”, like the equal opportunities commission from the burden of the tax payer.

As for “the rich”, oh bring out the trumbils and off with their heads,
Your politics of division and envy, churn up hatred for those who seem to have more than you, shout loud the petty jealousies, the hallmark of most of your posts.

In monetary terms I am not presently particularly wealthy, the consequence of 2 divorces, but my “wealth” is in the circle of people who, by their actions when needed, have demonstrated a “love” for me which few other people will ever experience. The generated sense of worth and self esteem which I have cannot be bought at any price. The sad part, I suspect you will never understand or experience what I am talking about.

As for “deny, deny, deny and lie, lie, lie.”

illustrates how little you know of me, how I work at what I do but then, when did facts, morals or ethics have anything to do with what you post? (I am being rhetorical).
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 9 December 2006 9:37:23 AM
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Col
GST is collected by all businesses but paid by none, sales tax only affected a few and the major complication was sales tax exemption numbers (you know the businessman with a hobby farm claiming to be a primary producer).

The states are doing exactly what was agreed, they only ever had to look at removing taxes there was and is no compulsion for them to do it. Guess what? They looked. It was only Liberal Party spin that these taxes would be removed.

Good old Fringe Benefits, the long lunch as a tax deduction, the company car, the paying of school fees, etc etc. The perks of the business owner enabling them to avoid paying tax.

Has the waterfront really improved? Sure they get containers off ships faster then they get stuck in bond and you have to hope the Customs computer system works, then maybe a couple of weeks later you get your goods.

I was talking about the size of the Government Bureaucracy not about tax take, even when so much has been outsourced the bureaucracy, which you have often complained about ,is now much larger (although it did shrink for a couple of years when Howard was first elected).

Is your calculation about tax as a percentage of GDP inclusive of GST or not? My understanding is that if you include GST it is higher. (Of course it is debateable whether this is a State or Federal Tax).

Is our economy booming? Tasmania in recession, NSW and Victoria close, SA and NT not far behind if it was not for the mining industry in WA and QLD we would be in recession now. Is 0.3% growth in the last quarter a boom?

Who “locked in” low inflation and who has squandered the benefits?
Posted by Steve Madden, Saturday, 9 December 2006 11:42:38 AM
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Col,

“I could not care less about other peoples negative emotions”.

Why then, do you constantly refer to what you perceive to be other peoples’ emotions (particularly envy) in an attempt to dismiss their comments? You appear to depend on the phrase “politics of envy”, and related ones, very heavily in arguments – where would you be without it?

“Re Iraq. Plenty of things undertaken by government might conflict with our individual views.

So you don’t wish to have “collective responsibility” (taxes, provision of social services) imposed on yourself (i.e. deducted from the profit you extract from the work of your employees), but when others are imposed upon it is merely a “conflict” with our “individual views”. You obviously don’t feel the need to take a principled stand against all forms of imposition, only the ones you disagree with, and which hamper your efforts to exploit others. I dare say you will support conscription when it is reintroduced.

“If you are telling us do not support the removal of Saddam Hussein, then you are complicit in the crimes which he undertook and carry the blood of his victims on your hands.”

Really? Complicit like selling him the WMD chemicals and technology? Complicit like helping him rort the UN Sanctions? Complicit like supporting him financially and militarily for years until he would no longer sell me his oil at a cheap price, after which I concocted a scheme to install a new puppet regime which will do my bidding? It is your heroes who are complicit in Saddam’s crimes, not people who oppose an imperialist war for the sole purpose of controlling the oil, which has killed hundreds of thousands, injured many more, and lain waste to a country. Typically, you echo your heroes’ simplistic good v evil rhetoric, which most reasonable people have managed to see through by now, except of course – you.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 9 December 2006 5:05:07 PM
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“I choose to cut my path through life without the fetters of an employer and with less government involvement”.

So you choose to BE THE FETTER of an employer. Not only that, to be successful, your business is RELIANT on the work of those nine salespeople you have just trained. Further you are RELIANT ON THE STATE to SUPPRESS those workers’ attempts to get a better deal for themselves. And before you say that you will reward individual effort, but not collective action, remember that it is your employees’ CHOICE of whether they take action collectively or not. It is the STATE which suppresses those workers’ right to CHOOSE. (By the way, I don’t support the current trade union leadership or their flawed ideology, but I defend workers’ right to organise themselves).

Go ahead and deny it all Col. Deny and lie.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 9 December 2006 5:05:40 PM
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I will give Col credit for employing 9 salesmen, I am not implying Col does this but many sales staff are employed as "contractors" ie they get paid on a commission only basis, get their own ABN, pay their own super etc.

This allows the business owner to take no risk, the employees cost them nothing, if they sell enough product to make the boss happy they keep the job, if they do not meet their targets they get shafted.

I worked at one company where I was the only employee, the sales staff even had to buy their own printer ink cartidges if they wanted to use a printer.

These people were "employed" even if some weeks they made absolutely nothing.

How many people are "employed" like this?
Posted by Steve Madden, Saturday, 9 December 2006 7:01:42 PM
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Yebiga and all. Quite a passionate thread this one. Great to see.

Yeby.. your opening thread was well written, but your biases and economic short sightedness came out when you said "We are wealthy because of China" which presumably means the wealth generated by digging stuff out of the ground and shipping it off to China.

Now.. even my favorite Aunti Blind Nellie can see how short sighted this is.

1/ New sources could be discovered anytime in other countries. (who can then offer a better price to the Chinese, and kill us)

2/ The 'stuff' will eventually run out.

The problem is not 'HOWARD' its the pathetic lame gutless unadventurous spineless lack of creativity and pro-active management of this economy by BOTH sides. We have Labor and Coalition fighting over the best deck chairs on the freaking TITANIC.

Its like when you go through a speed camera.. you see the FLASH, but it takes time for the notification of the fine to arrive, but you KNOW its-a-comin. Just so will the rude shock arrive when someone else discovers abundant resources and overtakes our markets.

For examples of Successful Government directed economies....

LOOK AT S.KOREA....and learn. (Pop 48mil)
LOOK AT SINGAPORE... and learn. (Pop 4.4mil)
LOOK AT TAIWAN ... and learn. (Pop 22mil)
LOOK AT MALAYSIA....and learn (Pop 25mil)

5 year plans.... they work.

What stands out in the above countries ? Simple-they want the COUNTRY to advance, rather than just their own party.

Our problem is that the only goal Political parties seem to have is....'get into power..and STAY there'.
The issues they use to get there.. are beyond lame. "David Hicks" "sorry" woah... my goodness... yep..I see it all now. Fix these things and UTOPIA will arrive.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 10 December 2006 6:59:31 AM
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David, nothing wrong with 5 year plans or apologising to the Aboriginal people of AUSTRALIA for past and present injustices - BOTH POSITIVE .
But fair dinkum David, swap our way of life for their's in South Korea,Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia -you are having a lend of us [again] !
Posted by kartiya jim, Sunday, 10 December 2006 8:34:14 AM
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Tao, on the scale of “gibbering idiocy”, your statement
“Further you are RELIANT ON THE STATE to SUPPRESS those workers’ attempts to get a better deal for themselves.”

Must rate as one of the most asinine I have ever heard.

No one forces those 9 sales people to work for me.

I know my business success is, in part, reliant on their effort, just as their success is reliant on the products which I have developed, at my cost, over the past 5 years, because, without those products, they would have nothing to sell.
I defend my right to decide who I will work with and extend that right to everyone else.

As for “Col. Deny and lie.”
I deny and lie about nothing,
That you cannot deal with people organizing themselves without your intercession or approval. reflects your paranoia, maybe they will be on a better deal than you could imagine.

I certainly told these people, I hoped they would make themselves a fortune (and me too).

Steve Madden” I will give Col credit for employing 9 salesmen,”

I did not say I employed, sorry if my using the word “staff” implied I did when I said “training nine sales staff”

These 9 are all on performance only commissions. The tenth wanted a retainer and declined our offer when she could not get one.

I would also say of the original 10, not one of them had any problem with the commission structure, in fact feed back on that was, it was extremely generous.

As for “This allows the business owner to take no risk, the employees cost them nothing, if they sell enough product to make the boss happy they keep the job, if they do not meet their targets they get shafted.”

My risk is
my investment,
business leads which I supply getting “burnt”
Missed opportunity, I do not want so many sales reps that they are running over each other.

I have found those who can “perform” do and those who cannot “complain” about everything and make excuses.

So Steve, how well did you “perform”?
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 10 December 2006 7:46:29 PM
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Col,

I'm surprised, all you are is a professional door to door hawker!

I would have thought you would have been something much more sophisticated and erudite.

A lawyer (QC even) or something in the upper professional classes?

Alas not.

I don't know why I feel disapointed, but I do, strange as it may seem.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 10 December 2006 9:32:45 PM
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Col,

“I-know-my-business-success-is,-in-part,-reliant-on-their-effort,-just-as-their-success-is-reliant-on-the-products-which-I-have-developed.” Isn’t that what is called “collective” effort. Just like sending an army to war is a collective effort. If you know your success is reliant on the effort of others, why do you continue with the individualistic self-reliance nonsense? Are you in denial, or lying? Or do you just not fully understand the meaning of your own words?

“No one forces those 9 sales people to work for me”. Actually, they are forced to work for someone, whether it is you or someone else, because otherwise they don’t eat (unless of course they become an employer and then others are forced to work for them in order to eat). You delude yourself if you think that people have absolute freedom of choice when it comes to the method by which they put food on the table. And you delude yourself if you think that those people magically appear from nowhere desirous of working for Col Rouge Inc. Those 9 people work for you because we live in an economic system where 10 per cent of people (probably less) own the means of production, so the other 90 per cent are forced to work for them. If it were not those 9, it would be another 9. Your so-called ‘success’ is dependant upon other people’s inability to put food on their table.

“That-you-cannot-deal-with-people-organizing-themselves-without-your-intercession-or-approval.-reflects-your-paranoia,-maybe-they-will-be-on-a-better-deal-than-you-could-imagine”. Where have I ever said that I should intercede or give my approval? You are making things up, I explicitly said that I merely defend the rights of workers to organise themselves, even though I don’t support trade union leadership or ideology. To be more precise, I believe workers have the right to run their places of employment and society itself on the basis of their own needs and the needs of society generally, as they see fit. You on the other hand, require the intercession of the STATE to enforce your “right” to profit from their work.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 10 December 2006 10:10:36 PM
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Rainier “I'm surprised, all you are is a professional door to door hawker! . . . . . . .

I don't know why I feel disappointed, but I do, strange as it may seem.”

Why on earth do you assume I “hawk” anything, surely it is easy to understand, the point of appointing sales staff, so they do the “hawking”.

Although, I did “sell” the initial products, that is the best way of doing product research, by getting prospect / buyer feed back and deciding the best method of delivery. In fact it was driving back form that first sales appointment that my business partner and I had an almost “cathartic experience” when I followed up with some analysis of an idea which has completely revolutionized exactly how we deliver what we produce.

We also follow-up to find out about the medium term “product benefits”, which have been considerable.

That said, “door-to-door” is hardly the most effective way when selling business-to-business, especially when one has the direct and ongoing support and endorsement of an industry association (a great commercial strategy which I put into place 5 years ago at the start of this process), for developing “product credentials” in a competitive market place. Of course, all this is probably commonplace for you, rainier.

Some of us are talented in more than one area. That is because we focus on doing what needs to be done and not what might “disappoint” other people and, of course, we listen, instead of preaching from on high.

Oh, I do have some exclusive professional qualifications but “lawyer / QC”, if ever there were “hawkers”, lawyers make typical ones, whoring their understanding of the law books and dressing up in wigs and gowns to do it.

So what rarified credentials do you “trade” on rainier?
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 10 December 2006 10:38:04 PM
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I have had a very varied work career. I sometimes say that I left school not knowing what I wanted to do and never found out. I never got any formal qualifications in anything either, I just had a go at a number of things and some of them worked out OK.

In one of what almost feels like a previous incarnation, I was pricing and costing officer with a large distribution/wholesale/retail company supplying building and engineering products. As such, one of my responsibilities was Sales Tax. Although there were many anomalies in the tax rates and applications, I found the basic system to be simpler to apply that GST.

Many years later, I was a manufacturer of a tax exempt item used in the building trade. My company had a Sales Tax number, issued by the Taxation dept, which excluded me from paying sales tax on materials and components which became part of my product. Compare that simple system with my present business situation. I pay GST on virtually everything and then offset it against on the GST which is paid to me. I know which system I prefer.

I became bored with the office situation and went on the road as a salaried sales rep, with company car, open expense account and other benefits. After a while, I negotiated a massive, automatically repeating consumables contract with one of the big mining companies in the Pilbara. After working out what that could have meant to me if I had been on just a small percentage commission, I asked my employers to put me on straight commission. They refused, so I started looking for something else.

cont
Posted by Rex, Monday, 11 December 2006 9:05:43 AM
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After a while, I joined an insurance company as a self-employed agent. I covered all my own expenses and was paid solely on commission. The situation seemed to suit me, I made more money than I had ever seen before and progressed with this company to area sales management level. After 5 years, I'd had enough of this too, maybe the story of my life.

My next long term venture was a sub-contracting business in the building trade, where I was also a manufacturer. The men who worked with me were also self-employed sub-contractors and were paid on price-for-the-job basis. I also worked alongside them on building sites and anyone who was prepared to work at my level [and I've never been a workaholic] was very well paid indeed. I would have been ashamed to have done it any other way.

During this time, I became appreciative of the building trade unions. As I negotiated my own contracts, the unions couldn't get me better pay or fringe benefits, but they were in a position to look after site safety, something they generally did very well. When the unions were influential, safety standards improved and the opposite obviously applied. As far as I am concerned, workplace safety is non-negotiable, but many employers don't see it this way. And I would suggest that any govt [like Howard's] which has a policy of locking out the unions doesn't give a high enough priority to workplace safety either.

cont
Posted by Rex, Monday, 11 December 2006 9:08:26 AM
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I am a believer in the "safety net" principle. Just like almost any other concept, there are differences of opinion as to where to draw the line and at least some aspects will be open to abuse and manipulation. But, to me, safety nets are a necessary part of a fair and civilised society.

Some pride themselves on "standing on their own feet" something I've generally done anyway. And some believe in the "user pays" principle. But we can't fairly apply user pays to health, to name just one concept, and then claim to have any concept of compassion for those who are suffering through no fault of their own, can we?

I see the current IR legislation as deserting the necessary principles of the safety net, as it applies to working conditions, wages and collective bargaining. Just one more example of dishonesty on the part of Howard and his hypocritical, moralising stooge, Kevin Andrews
Posted by Rex, Monday, 11 December 2006 9:35:55 AM
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Rex,
remarkably good read, well said.

I suspect you are not in the least interested in a job in politics but if you got together with Tapp I think I'd be inclined to vote for you! :-)

Any chance? I'm sure you could not be any worse than those doing the job already and maybe the country could benefit for your personal sacrifice?

Col(while back),
Betrayal, Nation: examples.

More times than i can count where Bonsai has had the chance to stand up for Australian values (other than purely economic) and declared our independent ideas rather than caving in to the wishes of Bush Jr. (Kuwait, Hawke and Bush Sr - we had an obligation to defend a sovereign nation from an illegal invasion by Saddam. Completely different to current Iraq occupation).

Massive betrayal of Aussie values of a fair go by not seeing the blindingly obvious (as many had attempted to get them to see) that AWB was selling out Aussie farmers to Saddam to the tune of $300 million in bribes when they had an obligation under the UN sanctions embargo to check the contracts AWB gave copies of to our DEFAT, to ensure no sanctions busting was going on (which included the kind of bribes the UN knew were likely to be paid by businesses wanting easy dollars from the Iraq Sanctions fund), even while our troops were preparing to invade Iraq.

Betrayal of national desire (70% of Australians wanted a republic) by forcing the referendum to decide between two differing republic models (divide and conquer the will of the people) instead of whether or not we should retain the constitutional monarchy system of Government Bonsai owes his prosperity to.

Refusing to claim the same rights for our nationals that the UK, Afghanistan and even the US gave to it's Guantanamo captives.

Just because you choose to turn a blind eye to the government policies that supports your lifestyle choices at the expense of many who for numerous reasons do not make the same choices you have, does not make you right in all cases, if any.
Posted by BrainDrain, Monday, 11 December 2006 1:02:23 PM
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For the discussion post,
(I have to say i feel a little uncomfortable because i find myself in the main agreeing with much of what Yebiga wrote and that is causing an alarm bell to go of in the back of my mind for some reason?)

My personal hope is that Rudd does not win in 2007, not because i want to enjoy another four years of cringing every single time Bonsai makes some announcement or comment, or because i relish the prospect of him resigning before the economic faeces hit the fan and letting Costello (or Downer?? Eeyucchh) take the fall for him, but because when the current bullish economic upcycle does finaly reverse, as it is likely to before the 2011 election, most mug voters are cynical enough to blame Labour for the downtrend and ensure we never get another Labour Government for twenty or more years and the 1980's inflation rate boogeyman will ensure a 'mandate' for the further moral destitution of this great nation until at least 2030.

That is a prospect that truly frightens me.

Once again, Fear is the primary factor in Australian politics.

All Hail Bonsai the Fearmeister!
Posted by BrainDrain, Monday, 11 December 2006 1:14:51 PM
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After reading all the contributions to this thread, it gives me no lasting comfort to find my original entry proven so intuitively accurate.

The many expert economic contributors have entirely missed the point. What is the cost of this real or imagined economic success? What have we sacrificed?

I maintain, that even a hard core "neo conservative" must be amazed how far and fast we have travelled to the right. By way of graphic contrast, not long ago, I could have reasonably hoped for the government to fully fund my sex change (should I have desired one). Today, I can go blind from cataracts, deaf, and toothless whilst on a 2 year waiting list. But of course we have never had it so good.

I have even heard of an Australian citizen detained in an overseas prison for 5 years without charge. There are persitent rumours the Howard government knows about it too!

There was another case, where Immigration officials reportedly mistook an Australian citizen aimlessly wandering around rural Queensland and locked her up for a year. Apparently, they feared she was the first of a new wave of desperate German backpackers eager ditch their decadent lifestyles for our longer working hours and smoke free-environment.

I know, I try to believe Howard is a good leader. After all, he took us to Iraq to fight for democracy. He has defined for Australia an independent foreign policy against worldwide criticism he has stood alone. He has shown similar insight with his stand on Kyoto. I know, I know.

I am embarassed, when I consider how I have doubted him, when he has already solved all our future energy problems - who would have ever thought : all we need is 35 Nuclear Power Plants. Whilst the lunatics are still talking aboutn solar energy.

and of course, If I only understood marco-economics and the power of self reliance I would never have any doubts.
Posted by YEBIGA, Monday, 11 December 2006 3:57:37 PM
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Yebiga,

Now i can use sarcasm as well as the next man to emphasise my points, so don't get me wrong here, But saying Bonsai put 500+ Aussie soldiers on the front line of a war in two different countries for DEMOCRACY?

Can anyone actually fall for that bull?

I challenge anyone here to prove to me otherwise that the main reason we have troops in Afghanistan five years on and Iraq three years on is the FEAR that America had that there would be another terrorist attack on the US if we did not join in the 'War on Terror'. Bansai Bonsai just had to support his good friend George's little war for economic crumbs that never came. Anyone notice how much better all our lives are since we got our 'Free Trade' agreement? Don't we all feel so much more relaxed and comfortable in Oz now we're alert-but-not-alarmed that the good muslims of Iraq have accepted democracy with open arms? (See? I told you i could use sarcasm).

RedNeck (lets call a spade a manual digging implement, many here don't parlez-vous Francais),

'That we place emphasis on holding to a position of reason and logic over Kyoto when the Europeans have already decided how to engineer the process to best suit themselves,'

Reason and logic huh?

How clever of the Europeans to carefully manipulate the UN's Kyoto Agreement program to reduce climate damage of unrestricted fuel consumption by ensuring they must reduce their own CO2 emissions by 8%, thus harming their economy's, while ensuring Australia, who refuses to ratify it, is granted a 10% INCREASE in CO2 emissions over 1990 levels, ensuring we gain on them economically! (IF we had chosen to ratify it. Seems Bonsai thought it irrational to gain such a cruelly mastered advantage unfairly)

Such a masterstroke of rationality by both the Europeans AND Bonsai; one can only wonder what dastardly plan for ensuring their own diminuition they have in store for us next?

(Yep! Sarcasm again. But I do make a good point there, don't i? In a backhanded complimentary kinda way) :-)
Posted by BrainDrain, Monday, 11 December 2006 4:51:29 PM
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Col

Thanks for enlightening me on the status of your "staff" could you also refrain from calling them sales staff.

They are not salesmen/saleswomen/salespersons they are order takers. Sales is a profession just as difficult and intricate as accountancy, if you provide the leads, generated by your "union" they are not in sales.

I can imagine the training, "we have this great product, each one you "sell" will get you x% GP all you need to do is sell one a day to make a squillion bucks."

I have lead teams of salesmen in my varied work experience and none would work if they did have control of the "funnel and pipeline".

A bit of advice, although I doubt you will take it, get them to generate their own leads, your method of spoonfeeding leads will end up in the best "closer" getting the best leads.

This will generate a feeling of resentment and will result in high "staff" turnover and increased costs. The good closer is probably the worst person your clients need to service their requirements.

Selling is about relationships often built over many years, if you are training 10 sales staff at one time your crackers.

PS You never did answer my question about the size of Govt. or our booming economy, your normal MO. :)

PPS what part of "I BILLED BHP IT $400 per hour" did you misunderstand :)
Posted by Steve Madden, Monday, 11 December 2006 5:36:38 PM
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Steve Madden “They are not salesmen/saleswomen/salespersons they are order takers. Sales is a profession just as difficult and intricate as accountancy, if you provide the leads, generated by your "union" they are not in sales.”

And I thought I was pedantic.

Simply providing leads does not assume a sale. A good sales person will take the lead, build the basis of a relationship (convey professionalism and ethics), promote the benefits, dispel / resolve the objections and close a sale. If it were merely a matter of taking orders, I would pay a bunch of telemarketers a lot less and keep more of the profit for myself. As it is my customers often consider the costs/benefits and, as one did last week, come back 3 months after the initial presentation with an order.

You are wrong Steve, I have actually met and have a better understanding of the people who have been selected and their purpose.

You have not met them or even seen the job description. You do not even know what the product is or how it is delivered and yet your mystical powers allow you to regale us with what is right and what is wrong.

Here is a genuine tip, I understand that any client knows what they want but had never been asked the right questions.

The best way of building relationships and finding out what is needed is to ask questions (using the questioning to guide the client toward my solution / product), instead of simply spouting off from some archaic text book one might have found in a second hand book store about how wonderful one is.

As for $400/ hour for BHP, you are here providing your knowledge for free. When it comes free, it means no one can be bothered to pay for it, I wonder what you are not telling me? Try selling it to BHP, if I could get $400 / hour from them I know I would be doing it now.

Re the PS/PPS nvariably, posting and word limits constrain everyone of us on what we respond to.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 11 December 2006 6:40:12 PM
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BD even you would be suprised about this australian peoples party and why the constitution is like it is.

Its for the people and that means anyone who volunteers as a candidate can become one, now that is deferent from several years being brainwashed left or right and then can stand for his or her electorate.
Another thing here is that a candidate is require to reside in that electorate and not just be moved in, a person like that wouldnt have an idea about the people,schools whats going on.

So really those that have a passion are those that can make change, even those who say there has to be something better.

It really is just making a commitment to find out.

Email:swulrich@bigpond.net.au
The Australian Peoples Party
Posted by tapp, Monday, 11 December 2006 7:57:15 PM
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Col

I really was trying to give you a tip. Having sold a million dollars worth of IT equipment into 5 university campuses for 4 years in a row ($20 million) and selling 38,000 PCs to one Govt Dept. in a single sale I do know what I am talking about.

I would ask the question why it took 3 months for your client to buy your product. Why did your order taker not close?

If you are so confident that you have a good product (it does not matter if it is saucepans or nuclear power stations) why not employ people properly, pay super, payroll tax, and the other benefits they are due?

If I may give a rhetorical answer it is greed.
Posted by Steve Madden, Monday, 11 December 2006 7:59:03 PM
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Tapp,

Are their any members of this party apart from you?

Why don't you tell us all about it rather than trying to con people into emailing you? With the number of posts you have made, you could have covered everything, surely?

Your constant requests for people to email you are a bit suss, old boy.

Has anyone been careless enough to reveal their email to you yet? I mean, some suspicious people could think that you are running some sort of con. Once you get email addresses .... who knows?
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 11 December 2006 8:09:38 PM
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Those that ask will recieve.

It is to stop those who only want to ridicule those who try to make change instead of beating heads in.

I have noticed your previous posts and I am here since it is a political sight and will say what I mean, honestly and truthfully it would hope that you where to.

To encourage change is something which we should do from time to time.

Just like a revolution

as i have noticed with some of your comments on olo.
I find it you are quick to judge but not ask so if you asked you would find out.
now no more i am wasting my own time.
I have respect for those that have emailed and how many well you dont need to know as you obviously work for someone so to degrade a way to beat howard
Posted by tapp, Monday, 11 December 2006 9:13:53 PM
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Tapp,

I hope I would be most pleasantly surprised by the Australian People's Party and I would like to support an earnest attempt to provide this country with more representative political candidates ( like Rex, if he ever decided to run... Hell yes, I'm serious!) not so seriously compromised by party politics and self-interest as our current bunch seem to be or even a more representative political system than the one which currently attempts to disgiuse itself as 'a Free Democracy'.

I have to say though, you do seem to be making a little bit too much effort to trawl for emailers than suits my level of natural mistrust of my fellowman (a failing possibly? Damn, maybe I'm not 'perfeck' after all?)

Now if you were serious enough to say, have your own website, with maybe all your policies explained along with your agenda that we could visit freely...?

Or is that asking too much for now?

As for being surprised about the Constitution? I believe very little would actually surprise me with regards to that document.

And i believe Australian women will gladly inform you about the Australian male's average ability to offer commitment.

I wish you the Best of Luck.
Posted by BrainDrain, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 1:09:44 AM
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ok
then

http://www.ozpolitic.com

Go to the APP link
Posted by tapp, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 7:42:06 AM
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A few good tips there from Braindrain. You could also brush up on your English if you want to be taken seriously.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 8:01:48 AM
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Steve Madden “Why did your order taker not close”
I was the order taker on that one (I said early research to find out what works) and because the customer was not ready to commit. Simple, alignment of the planets, Steve.

“If I may give a rhetorical answer it is greed.”

I love it when someone suggests the only motivator is “greed”. Such simple single syllables does not explain why someone sacrifices a significant part of their waking time and refinances their house to pursue a goal, when they could go and punch a time clock or work a salary somewhere else.

Suggesting “Greed” was the historic response of the Luddites and the Cromwellian Levelers, Steve.

“Oh he might earn more than me by following his dream, therefore he must be greedy”

Since you are giving rhetorical answers, I will leave you to ask and answer yourself, although people have been known to comment on those who talk to themselves.

Tapp I would have thought, rather than trawling for email addresses to presumably “spam”, I would have spent a few dollars on a web site to carry your message and dropped the url here.

I, for one, would have gone and read the message and decided from there if to email, I did goggle “Australian Peoples Party” and found nothing
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 8:28:31 AM
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Hi Col you obviously missed the link

http://ozpolitic.com

from there click on APP

TAPP
Posted by tapp, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 8:57:54 AM
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Hi BrainDrain,

"I would like to support an earnest attempt to provide this country with more representative political candidates ( like Rex, if he ever decided to run... Hell yes, I'm serious!)"

Thanks for the compliment, but, as a person who regards himself as a logical, lateral thinker, who tries to move on, based on actual successful results, rather than on failed theories, I suspect that most people would not regard me as "more representative".

I have exchanged polite, informative emails with Tapp and have not been spammed or otherwise intruded upon. Thanks for that, Tapp and thanks for the website posted above.

But Tapp and I have at least one probably major political difference. I'm almost a founder member of the WA Greens. That's not to say that I invariably agree with Greens policies, tactics or priorities, what thinking member of any group, political or otherwise, could not find themselves in such a situation at times?

But, with the importance I place on looking after our environment and the empathy I feel for various disadvantaged people, the Greens is the party I choose to give general support to.

Also, I don't want to be forced to go to work in that most inappropriate [for much of Australia and indeed the world] uniform, the English national dress, the dreadful suit and tie. I tried to post a new topic [got knocked back] a while ago asserting that any man who chooses to dress like this in an Australian summer is an environmental vandal, by causing a ridiculous overuse of airconditioning. I even suggested that, if the relevant figures were worked out, the suit and tie may be the most damaging thing ever introduced into Australia, even surpassing rabbits, foxes and cane toads etc in terms of environmental damage. But when brainwash, superstition and male vanity are the deciding factors, what chance does common sense have?

cont [maybe later]
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 9:55:53 AM
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In regard to "practice what you preach", I was WA Wheatbelt manager for the insurance company in the 1970s. We were expected to "relate to our clients and prospects". Well, I was calling mainly on farmers, shearers, farm contractors, owner drivers etc, none of whom were wearing suits. So what was I supposed to do, try to impress them with my sartorial splendour or dress logically under the circumstances in lightweight pants and short sleeved, open neck shirts?

When the state manager found out and tried to stand over me, I let him know, with a few well chosen words, that I would make my own decisions on dress and that was the end of the matter. Can you imagine me getting away with that in Parliament, where logic, reason and common sense habitually come a poor last to officially sanctioned stupidity?

And, apart from all that, I'm 72. I'm 90% retired, but have a home based business, which I run from my office, which overlooks my [sort of] Balinese style, very private back garden and pool. It's really no contest, is it? But thanks all the same LOL!
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 9:59:14 AM
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More power to you Rex!

And you're a Sandgroper on top of it all.

With all that going for you you'd never stand a chance in Australian politics... you'd still be a shoe-in for my vote though! : )

Tapp,
ty very much for the url. There is a lot to absorb on it. It may take me a day or two to digest it all fully but from initial readings you may find the following helpful - or not. As you see it.

I'm guessing you have thought this all out by yourself, possibly discussing it with the Missus and a couple of mates for some extra input?

No man is an island, but no-one man can represent a party's (a successful political party's) entire policy program in Australia.

Your ideas undoubtedly will resonate with some in the community (i've even expressed similar thoughts to some of your Policy on Crime) but if you seriously want to pose a threat to LibLab you should consider having your policy's reviewed and perhaps amended to meet with a wider view than just one person can supply. (Creating documents with a spellchecker can't hurt either!) :-)

Also, I appreciate funding might be a bit tight in your current circumstances but i suggest you find a backer who can fund you a website dedicated to your party on it's own and not be associated with some of the more 'unconventional' ideas and opinions expressed on the first page the url directs us to.

I would be distrustful of any financial input that did not come with 'expectations' from the backer, but hopefully you could ensure any conditions are limited and do not restrict your personal objectives in any serious fashion.

I do agree we need better from our politicians than we are getting and hope your plan can achieve that, but i truly believe you need additional outside input to 'capture' sufficient numbers of members.

Good luck once more.
Posted by BrainDrain, Tuesday, 12 December 2006 2:06:48 PM
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How can we ask our immigrants to pledge allegiance to our values when we do not have any? To do that we need to have a bill of rights, then we could ask them to pledge to something.

Only, almost anything worth including in a bill of rights has been flagrantly undermined by the Howard government. We would be left with no more than, I pledge to obey the laws of this country regardless of whatever changes maybe made to those laws. Or we could throw in all the typical liberty/fraternity platitudes and slot in an exemption for anything deemed to be a matter of national security.

Unfortunately, every protest can be seen as a matter of national security?

I think the above is a little disingenuous. After all, our right to work hard and acculmulate wealth is still sacrosanct.



The Australian Bill of Rights:

You have the right to obey the law, as determined from time to time and with the proviso that anything you do is not deemed to be a matter of national security.

You have the right to work and accumulate wealth.

You have the right to winge impotently.



There is more than a little chance this values pledge crap will backfire in Howards' face. This is not only a bridge too far, to borrow Rudds'phrase, but also a poorly constructed bridge. It will not see the light of day. It would fuel enough ridicule to be terminal to even the imperial Howard.
Posted by YEBIGA, Thursday, 14 December 2006 12:19:20 AM
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“How can we ask our immigrants to pledge allegiance to our values when we do not have any?”

Utter rubbish

I have “values” and I had them before I became a citizen.

I am also a migrant and have pledged allegiance to Australia through citizenship, such an action did not deprive me of my “values”.

I would suggest declaring “our values when we do not have any” merely reflects your own personal deficiency.

I would also point out

USA requires all applicants for citizenry to undergo lessons in and be tested on their understanding of

English.
The processes of US Government and its institutions.
The American Constitution.

Similar processes exist in some individual states in Europe.

Further, citizenship (and residency) are barred to those with criminal records (those who have demonstrated a absence of “values”, like the slime ball who was recently deported back to Serbia after completing his prison sentence and deserved to stay there) and those with certain diseases (eg tuberculosis).

I would also remind you that the “Howard Government” was elected to office under the full rigor of due democratic process.

I value my right to vote and accept the will of the majority through the ballot box.

Your cynical whining would suggest you do not share similar “values” and are intent on doing your utmost to spoil things when you do not get your own selfish way.

Is which case I can only hope you have a long, miserably frustrated life as a lesson to learn from for your next reincarnation (up the evolutionary scale, as a cockroach).
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 14 December 2006 8:13:30 AM
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As of July 2005, the requirements for grant of Australian citizenship (in force since 1984) are that the applicant:

holds permanent resident status
has been present in Australia as a permanent resident for a total of 2 years in the 5 years before application, including a total of 12 months in the 2 years before application
understands of the responsibilities and privileges of Australian citizenship (except for applicants aged 60 or over)
is able to speak and understand basic English (except for applicants aged 50 or over)
understands the nature of the application
intends to reside in Australia, or maintain a close and continuing association with Australia

So whats new in Howards proposal except 4 years, mateship and fair go !
Posted by Steve Madden, Thursday, 14 December 2006 10:00:05 AM
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Col Rouge,

You have the right to entrap yourself in the narrowest of paradigms and yell what ever abuse please you.

Col we do not live in one of your favourite western movies, where the charging Yankee cavalry will always save the day. This is precisely, the delusion Howard and you share.

If the only value you have any confidence in citing is our right to vote, aren't you conceding my point - we are bereft of values right now.

Finally, if you familiarised your self with some history. If you occassionally tossed your views aside and looked at things from a different perspecive, you may actually experience an authentic moment. You may then have the courage to admit the undeniable: Howard has seriously fractured the trust between the government and its citizens. No amount of marco economic figures or j curves, change this one iota.

Is there a PM who has sent australian troops to as many foreign places? Howard has been out of control for some time. When he laughs, I can see Beezlebub!

In time, this will be clear to you
Posted by YEBIGA, Thursday, 14 December 2006 1:51:16 PM
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YEBIGA “the delusion Howard and you share.”

I can assure you, any “delusions” which you fatuously claim others might suffer, certainly do not apply to me.

Regarding “If the only value you have”

I obey the law and value the standards which Australia was bequeathed from its British Legal precedence.
I value honesty and do not cheat on my taxes.
I make effort to conduct my business affairs in an ethical manner and when anticipating a response to a commercial agreement consider, in the instance of ambiguity, what the ethic response should be.
I value my family (actually I come with a reference from one of my ex-wives)
I have the privilege of having 12 close friends who love me and saw me through the darkest days of my life, some 5 years ago, I value every one of them.
I value my Australian citizenship.
I value the freedom and right to make my own mistakes.
I value living in a democracy and fervently support democratic principles.
I value the creative works of Canaletto, Celine and Mozart
I value freedom of expression and debate (I might disagree with everything you say but will always defend your right to say it).

I could go on all night about what I “value” but will stop here, for I also value expediency.

As for “Howard has seriously fractured the trust between the government and its citizens.”

Only a fool “trusts” government.
The Westminster tradition (the basis of Australian Parliamentary democracy) has always been a matter of emotive passions where words like “trust” are bandied around like lollies before children.

I would recall Comments which were exchanged between politicians Pitt and Fox (or Wilkes and Montagu or apparently Gladstone and Disraeli too)

"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the pox," said One,
To which the Other replied, "That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

“Trusting politicians” elevate folly to the heights of an artform.

Leave me to make my own mistake's, I find it cheaper than trusting a politician to make them for me.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 14 December 2006 9:00:07 PM
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Col: ""You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the pox," said One, To which the Other replied, "That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." "

Priceless. I might often disagree with Col, but the comment containing that quote was brilliant :)

However, it's unimaginable that such an exchange could take place between Howastello and Rudd, isn't it? There isn't a thimble of wit between them.

Are we doomed to an inevitable contest between a couple of godbothering softcocks?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 14 December 2006 10:54:25 PM
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Col,

Society is a vast network of trust. We agree to drive on the left-hand side of the road, and we trust others to comply; we agree to provide certain goods, and we trust others to pay for them; we agree to observe the rules of an organisation, and we are trusted to enjoy its privileges. This complicated network into which every detail of our lives is interwoven and almost all of our expectations are based, is the essential fabric of society. Without this trust there is no society. We are left hiding in caves.

As Hobbes said, life would be "nasty, brutish and short".

With this trust, individuals and organisations can co-operate and establish the relatively predictable patterns essential to peace and freedom.

I feel the Howard Government has undermined this trust:

Because of our involvement in an illegal war; because of the terror laws, because of the wilful neglect of the likes of David Hicks; Because of the inhumane behaviour of our immigration department towards refugees and citizens; Because although Howard claims we are enjoying unprecedented wealth, yet we have never been so niggardly towards our poor and sick. Because we have longer and longer hospital waiting lists; because each year our tertiary education becomes less accessible; because the current generation of corporates' has created nothing but a bigger quarry since 1996 - where is the new computershare; because Howard has created a climate where noone can even explore solutions to our continental water crisis in any real way for fear of being accused of being too radical; because our media is now in so few hands that inevitably the lack of debate has turned us all into cretins. Because I have to listen to the BBC or NPR to hear what the rest of the world is thinking.

Because Amanda Vanstone eats refugees, Philip Ruddock is self administering sleep deprivation, Alexander Downer knew nothing about AWB, and Howard knew the Iraqis' had WMDs.
Posted by YEBIGA, Friday, 15 December 2006 12:39:18 AM
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YEBIGA “I feel the Howard Government has undermined this trust:”

I would suspect you have experienced few governments, that is observation, not intended as criticism.

My point, I suggest similar “failings” in politicians of other persuasions.

Most recently, the Victorian “Eastern Freeway”, which the Victorian Labor party lied about and lost $400 million of federal money by turning it into a tollway.

Keatings “the recession we had to have” was another lie.

I recall another Keating famous lies,

RE http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s301486.htm

“The 'L.A.W'. law tax cuts of the Keating Government that year, they were very important for Keating's victory at that election . . . Some weren't delivered.”

I recall how Bob Hawke was an adulterer, the stench of lies accompanies such deceit (I am twice divorced but neither time tainted by any infidelity on my part).

I remember how, surprise, after the failure of the Keating socialist government Keatings marriage collapsed (girlfriend in the background)
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/20/1082395850666.html?from=storyrhs

Everyone will recall how Senator Gareth Evans and Leader of the Social Democrats had their dalliances announced, http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/03/1025667007922.html
Where I quote “Gareth Evans, the former foreign minister and deputy Labor leader, lied to Parliament about a five-year affair with Labor's star recruit Cheryl Kernot,”

I remember socialist who did deals with unions behind closed doors.

I could go on all night listing the lies which politicians of every colour and hue have fobbed off onto the electorate and I am left with one compelling consideration,
If we accept that politics is a lying business, better to minimize the damage.

I vote liberal for one simple reason, I believe the Liberal/Conservative wing of politics will leave me alone to make my own mistakes and, unlike the socialist and their agenda of continuous social engineering, not increase taxes to make the mistakes for me.

Call me cynical if you wish, I must admit it is not a very laudable reason for voting, because I mistrust one political party less than I mistrust another but we all have to come to some resolution of what we believe and that is what I believe.
Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 17 December 2006 5:11:26 PM
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Col,
I too have no love for any of our political parties. I too have very low expectations of our politicians.

I am not outraged in the least by my differences with Howards' economic policies - it is to be expected. I acknowledge his cunning and his competence, even if I don't quiet fawn over his acheivements.

My outrage is with this governments treatment of our rights. You are far too comfortable with the excesses. What was Hicks doing in Afghanistan anyway, you may think? And if it were merely Hicks than I too would be less concerned. But it is Solon, Rau, and innumerable other citizens and refugees. It is the Terror laws and their shameful abuse. It is the undermining of parliamentary debate with the legislated jocker - National Security.

While, you may take comfort that this has nothing to do with you, I believe it has everything to do with all of us. Every one of these injustices is an attack on you too. This is much more than a broken political promise and far more dangerous. This is the social contract and with each small betrayal of our trust, each new outrage becomes more acceptable.

Howard has fractured the mainstream community between Muslims and Christians. Slowly, perhaps, but inevitably hearts are hardened and anger grows. I don't think either of us wish to see this country descend into violence and hatred. and if you piss off enough people long enough it is inevitable.

Todate, you have refused to respond or acknowledge this. Instead, you entertain yourself by painting me as some kind of left wing nutter. I understand your angst but this is an issue which transcends the petty economic squabbles of left and right.
Posted by YEBIGA, Sunday, 17 December 2006 11:15:29 PM
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YEBIGA “Instead, you entertain yourself by painting me as some kind of left wing nutter.”

I have endeavoured to paint you of no political hue at all.

As for outrage, I too have been outraged by many things but have decided, I will measure each outrage as it applies to me personally and base my support or otherwise for those which do not on the certainty not just that “what is reported is not always the truth”
but “what is reported is, invariably, not all of the truth”, for reasons of security (this would include references to Hicks) and maybe just expediency.

My samples of lies and deceits of politicians from the other side of politics to the incumbent government was to help you balance your view or at least recognize, what you claim to decry in the government is far less than what I can evidence in the opposition.

You have no evidence of John Howard “fracturing” Muslim-Christian relations.

All Muslims need to understand that Australia is a secular state populated predominantly by “Christians”. It is worth noting that if Muslims cannot handle that fact, they should consider their own future because, we should not pretend that sharia law or other trappings of Muslim fundamentalism will ever prevail here.

“Todate, you have refused to respond or acknowledge this.”

If you wish me to respond to something specific, ask it directly in the form of a question, rather than allude to it in rant and I will do my best to comply with your request.

“I understand your angst”

Actually the “angst” is all yours.

As a politician, John Howard, (the object of your angst) is far more ethical than any labor prime minister since WWII.
Hawke is an adulterer, Keating an arrogant buffoon (and possible adulterer) and Whitlam a deluded pompous bore who managed to get himself sacked through acts of arrogance and incompetence.
Latham was floated as a possible alternate prime minister and showed his true colour in his sad book of memoirs.
I wonder what we will find out about Rudd as time goes by
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 18 December 2006 7:16:22 AM
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What the flying ... does Hawkes' adultery or Keatings' possible adultery have to do with anything. Whether you like it or not, someone of your distinct Australian character would never have had the gaul to publicly question a politicians' credibility based on their sexual habits. Never, until Howard, who sanctions all things base.

While, I disagree, I accept your desire to concern yourself with only those things which directly effect you. But I deplore the conclusion to your last post, which resorts to the worst kind of sexual moralising.

Indeed, why would anyone bother discussing or arguing any point with someone who in a political forum thinks it appropriate to resort to sexual innuendo?

You my forlorn penpal have some carnal ISSUES, do us all a favour and try not to project them into your political opinions.
Posted by YEBIGA, Monday, 18 December 2006 3:10:57 PM
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Col you made my day, best belly laugh I have had in ages.

"As a politician, John Howard, (the object of your angst) is far more ethical than any labor prime minister since WWII."

Ha Ha Har de Har Ha

"Pru Goward, the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, has issued a statement rejecting claims that she had a sexual relationship with the Prime Minister, John Howard."

So given your "level of proof" John Howard is just as much an adulterer as Paul Keating. (rumour and inuendo)

Howard has NO ethics whatsoever.
Posted by Steve Madden, Monday, 18 December 2006 3:47:49 PM
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“While, I disagree, I accept your desire to concern yourself with only those things which directly effect you. But I deplore the conclusion to your last post, which resorts to the worst kind of sexual moralising.”

It is not sexual moralising, it is criticism of an action which labels the perpetrator a liar by default.

No excuses, no “it was an honest mistake”.

If Hawke had divorced his wife and then pursued a relationship after formal separation / divorce, the situation would be entirely different. As it was, he did not. Nor did Evans / Kernot and Keatings conduct is similarly suspect.

Like I said, I happen to have been married twice and have known some people who have had affairs within a marriage. Those who did have “affairs” had one thing in common, a complete disregard for the vows which they took.

I have also known other people like me, despite being unhappy in a marriage, resisted the opportunity for either a casual or more recurring fling until we had resolved the expectations and obligations of marriage.

I also know those who have had affairs are crippled by the idea that what they did could happen to them, their anxiety is almost palpable.

It leaves people like me asking,

well if he / she could so readily disregard a solemn vow to a loved one, how seriously is he or she about what they say when they are sworn in to parliament?

As for “You my forlorn penpal have some carnal ISSUES, do us all a favour and try not to project them into your political opinions.”

We all have issues, the issue of honesty and ethics is one which is dear to me, I could not care less about "carnality" of others, merely the ethics which they discard in the process.

“Ethical conduct in public office” is an issue which should be important to anyone who votes and “adulterous conduct” demonstrates a fatal absence of the required ethics.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 18 December 2006 3:58:20 PM
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Col

I prefer my leaders to have made mistakes, many of them. I want them to admit their mistakes and suffer for them, and learn from them. People who don't make mistakes are best suited to be employed as traffic cops.

You condemn Hawke and Keating and defend yourself because you did'nt screw around on your ex-wife and waited until everything was sorted. Whatever that means. Have you for a moment considered that had you screwed around earlier, everything may have been sorted far sooner? You obviously consider your behaviour noble, when it could equally be seen as despicable. Perhaps, you merely wasted your and your ex-wifes time to protect a self image - your nobility. Were you protecting her dignity too - some people may consider this very patronising!

So Col babe, it ain't necessarily so. Our motivations are not always clear to ourselves. There is a world of folly in judging the personal lives of others.

It is clear thou, that you would impeach Clinton for Carnal Knowledge but stay the course with Bush. In your world, adultery is a greater crime than the war in Iraq; a greater tragedy than the 600,000 killed in that war. Its not? But where else do your opinions lead Col. While you stand thick with Death, you find comfort in your own nobility.

Your so Neitzsche!
Posted by YEBIGA, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 12:40:24 AM
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Steve Madden “"Pru Goward, the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, has issued a statement rejecting claims that she had a sexual relationship with the Prime Minister, John Howard."

A here trolling around for a crumb Steve? I described Keatings relationship as it was reported. All you have done is drawn the longest bow and tried to equalize the score. You have missed the target Steve.

YEBIGA “In your world, adultery is a greater crime than the war in Iraq”

You have no idea what is in “my world”.

I have no idea what important in your world and I could not care less either. As far as I am concerned, that we presumably share a common citizenship is an association which I will do my best to ignore.

In your innocence you seem to have missed the point, which is, an adulterer has proven they are dishonest and untrustworthy.
Therefore, why would anyone presume any truth in what a proven liar says, does or claims?

You can beat you chest and berate all you want, You can vote which ever way you choose, Liberal, Labor or the Great-big-hairy-monster party and when the ballot is finished, what everyone else has voted will count equal with you.

I thought this was an amusing thread to post “How to Beat Howard and Why” but rereading parts of your opening statement

“Howard has played Mephistopheles to our Faust and we purchased the bargain. In return, we have sacrificed Australia.”

And your anecdotal analogy to “Norm”, it really does show me that you just do not have a clue.

And the closing statement

“His is an ideoligical crusade: contemptuous of Australia's history, culture and constitution.

Norm of "life be in it" would have Howard, Ruddock and Vanstone arrested, charged and incarcerated.”

Howard is an Australian, that his Australia does not conform to your childish demand is too bad. Get up and challenge him if you want. That is why I support him, because he, more than the swill humping manipulators of socialism, Howard will defend my right to vote.

“Charged and Incarcerated”
Go, play with the pixies
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 7:55:32 AM
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YEBIGA “Your so Neitzsche!”

Oh I think you meant “Nietzche”, how Freudian of you.

Well I did come across something “Nietzche” which might be appropriate here

How about

“At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.”

I can relate to that

Or better

“Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.”

But best and what I do sincerely believe

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.”

That is why I will always vote against the socialist swill humpers.

Oh and as a postscript “For men are not equal: thus speaks justice.”

Have a nice day
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 8:12:56 AM
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No Col you repeated rumour and inuendo, "Reported" by who? Paul Keating has never commented, his exwife Anita said she did not know.

I repeat John Howard (possible adulterer) has NO morals.
Posted by Steve Madden, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 1:05:01 PM
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Col: "YEBIGA 'Your so Neitzsche!'

Oh I think you meant “Nietzche”, how Freudian of you."

I think you meant Nietzsche, didn't you? If Yebiga's slip was Freudian, what was yours - 'Pidgeonian'?

How's the glass house faring?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 8:20:35 PM
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Well, thanks to Col we've all had a bit of light relief!

Is it too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that we've all been guilty of not holding entirely to the truth at times? So does that automatically make us all totally untrustworthy? I would suggest of course not.

Like Col, I have had the responsibility of managing commission sales teams. When I was an area manager with an insurance company, back in the 1970s, one of my jobs was to check the sales reports of the individual team members and verify the accuracy thereof. Only once did I find a deliberate attempt to defraud both a client and the company. As far as I was concerned, this was unforgivable and I took the agent concerned to the state manager and suggested he be instantly dismissed [and this is what happened].

But some of the agents, most of whom were married, were a bit flighty with the ladies. Just as long as it didn't involve the company's clients, and their wives and daughters etc, and it didn't become some kind of a scandal in a country town, then I regarded it as none of my business.

One particular member of my team comes to mind. Knowledgeable, capable and as straight as a die on company business. But his indiscretions, which were never business related, were between him and his wife, as far as I was concerned. Not a matter of whether or not I approved, it was simply none of my business.

cont
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 11:02:47 PM
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So who would I have on my hypothetical sales team? I would welcome Bob Hawke, Paul Keating and Bill Clinton. But I wouldn't want John Howard, despite his glib tongue. I think I'd need to spend so much of my time watching him, that I'd never get any work done.

The last time I saw Howard [in the flesh], he was in WA to proudly tell us how much of our money he was using to further hasten the pollution of once beautiful Cockburn Sound, south of Fremantle. As his car slowly drove past, I told him what we thought of him, in a suitably forceful manner. One of my co-protesters thought I was being a bit too forceful, but it was just what the TV people wanted!

Back to business. Maybe Col will tell us which politicians he would be happy to have, or not have, on his sales team.
Posted by Rex, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 11:06:18 PM
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Yep Rex, I buggered that up good and proper

but as dearest Margaret said “We want a society where people are free to make choices, to make MISTAKES, to be generous and compassionate.”

So I will endeavour to be extra generous and extra compassionate to atone for the mistake.

Re “Maybe Col will tell us which politicians he would be happy to have, or not have, on his sales team.”

I can think of none,

as Churchill said

“When asked to name the chief qualification a politician should have,
"It's the ability to foretell what will happen tomorrow, next month, and next year --- and to explain afterward why it didn't."”

Better just settle for real salespeople
Posted by Col Rouge, Wednesday, 20 December 2006 1:44:37 PM
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I STILL say.... REX for PM! :)

I appreciate he will not stand for the job and i even have an inkling way down deep that even if he did and got it, after twenty years in politics he would look as bad to me as Howard does now as the job is not one a 'decent' man can stay decent in.

Any argument?
Posted by BrainDrain, Wednesday, 20 December 2006 2:42:46 PM
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Labor debacles surround us nearly in every state.Federal Labor has not the talent ,economic nouse or policies to claim leadership in the near future.

Just because there is economic prosperity the weak kneed socialists are crawling out of the woodwork seeking the security of higher taxes for more bloated bureaucracies to ply their trade of experimental social engineering,which have proven to have been the root of their demise time and time again.Now,beginining with Cough Drop who sent us broke during the last resources boom and ending with Placebo Domdingo,alias Paul Bleating,who still cries foul.

The real damage time and time again are proven to be the economic vandals under the helm of "Good Ship Well Intentioned Labor".

That is the reality.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 20 December 2006 10:03:27 PM
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Arjay,

Given that things are as clear as you so eloquently lay them out for us plebs, why then do Labor keep on getting into power, particularly in the State's political elections? (20 in a row for Labor).

Could it possibly be that under Liberal 'leadership' the great economic wealth produced is not only spread unevenly (the minority who take the greatest 'risks' get the greatest share of the spoils) but is not spread as far or as fairly as the Liberal apologists keep shouting from the rooftops and media (to anyone who will listen to the propaganda) it is and the MAJORITY who work hard but dumb fall further behind in the 'shares' of this great democracy realise it's time to even up the 'balance' a little in their favour?

Or am I just bleating for my undeserved share of all this vast wealth Howard/Costello keep trying to make me believe I already have a share in? (while Qantas execs are simply 'given' $100 million worth of shares because their company is no longer going to be publically owned while another 3000 Australian jobs are lined up to go offshore).

Mum's and Dad's working more hours than anyone in the OECD countries and still feeling the 'pinch' in their household budgets and national failing of health, education and law will only fall for this line for so long before seeing through it for the bull it is and demanding revolution.

And around the ball rolls again.
Posted by BrainDrain, Thursday, 21 December 2006 2:09:01 PM
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And when will you lot realise that labor and liberal are really both the same now.

When will you honestly take on the chalange and change this duopoly that these two share.

When will you stop bleating and stand up and make a real change, but then most dont care they much prefer to winge.
Posted by tapp, Thursday, 21 December 2006 2:18:01 PM
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Tapp “And when will you lot realise that labor and liberal are really both the same now.”

Since Hawke started the move west, away from the grand follies of socialism and Blair copied the Australian model to serve up to Britains, the differing national parties have grown closer.

I recall the yawning gulf and near catastrophe of government changes in UK in the late 1970’s / early 1980’s culminating when the tide away from nationalization was threatened with the Foot/Benn plans for nationalization of everything and political cadres in all media offices.

Thank God the UK, in that critical election, chose Thatcher over Foot/Benn and commonsense over disaster.

(At that time the UK socialists suffered the same problem they suffer today in Australia, a party without a leader. Foot was the darling of the left, all grand statements, ideas of the celebration of labour deliverance through toil, the sort of bunkum which makes for grand speeches and starving children, and Benn. Benn, hung up with his guilt fixation on being the foppish son of wealth and privilege and heir to title, who has not done a days real work in his life).

So now we look similar to USA, where the finest of distinctions separate the Republican from the Democrat policies, (something which, from the giant swings in UK political policies, I always considered a bit of an American advantage)

However, there remainings one critical difference, whilst the two major parties express similar policies, the conservatives know how to run the economy and the “remodeled socialists” (as Blair would call them “New Labour”) do not.

Changing policy is one thing, it represents merely plotting the course and the direction of the ship of state. Such fine ideals lead nowhere, if the essential skills in seamanship (the ability to read the weather and tides and understand the basic controls of tiller and motivating forces) remain absent.

For me, a change from conservative prudence would be a change for the worse. Get three socialists together and they sound like a jumbo jet. They whine because they know how to do nothing else
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 21 December 2006 7:02:51 PM
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Brain Drain,Labor gets into power because it continually appeals to our human weakness not to achieve,and thus Labor lose power because of high taxes and an under achieving populace which usually ends in recession.We all want to hear the good news of winning the lottery,but few us realise the sheer hard work by individuals that create this surplus that can be taxed and given away.Millions of people in private enterprise work long hard hours and give up up a lot of their personal family time,only to have their endeavours dashed by Public Service incompetence.

With discipline and hard work comes prosperity.With weakness and self indulgence comes decadence and poverty.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 21 December 2006 7:57:16 PM
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Arjay and Col,
Funny how the rich and powerfull seem to ignore the environment and the natural processes in their "disciplined" efforts to gain more prosperity.
Faced with taxes to repair their irresponsible damage they winge and complain and say the opposing Science is suspect .
They are trying to promote unsustainable Economic Growth [even to the point of absolute stupidity ]to line their pockets as quick as they can .
The average "rich" seem to be obsessed with getting richer .
Deepak Chopra observed how unhappy they seemed, for all their wealth, on TV today .
Posted by kartiya jim, Thursday, 21 December 2006 10:54:05 PM
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kartiya Jim “Funny how the rich and powerfull seem to ignore the environment and the natural processes”

Maybe you could substantiate that claim with some evidentiary substance

“The average "rich" seem to be obsessed with getting richer .
Deepak Chopra observed how unhappy they seemed, for all their wealth, on TV today .”

I have never met an “average rich” , I suppose a few chinless wonders remain the products of inbreeding within families intent on focusing their wealth but most of the “rich” I know as people, the self made variety, are exceptional and unique, everything but “average”.

As for Deepak Chopra, as an Indian writer and guru he is certainly “rich” he might be reflecting on his own circumstances, maybe the La Costa Resort & Spa bookings are down. He might even benefit from some self-enlightenment
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 22 December 2006 10:06:23 AM
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Col Rouge wants some evidence of the irresponsibility of the rich with regard to protecting the natural environment as they accumulate more wealth. From Google, the following.....
Probably the most obscene example of one is RON GREENTREE of Windella,the Biggest individual Grain grower in Australia [some say the world ]and a leader in Australia's Grain Industry, wilfully destroying by clearing, ploughing and planting 100 hectares of rare RAMSAR Internationally listed Gwydir Wetlands to grow wheat .
He was fined $150,000.00 and his company $300,000.00.by Justice Sackville of the Federal Court.
Will you make some excuses for his behavior Col Rouge ?
Posted by kartiya jim, Saturday, 23 December 2006 9:13:14 AM
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For evidence of how being 'rich' leads to happiness, one need look no further than Col's numerous jolly and congenial posts to this forum :) Always inspirational and uplifting.

Merry Xmas!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 23 December 2006 9:53:36 AM
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Kartiya jim ”He was fined $150,000.00 and his company $300,000.00.by Justice Sackville of the Federal Court.
Will you make some excuses for his behavior Col Rouge ?”

I would observe, the system of laws we have identifies him as guilty and punished. Individuals can choose to follow the law or transgress. One persons transgression does not justify a general “class” based criticism. If you like, I could go find a few “working class” environmental vandals, like CFA blokes who set bush fires. It does not warrant or justify a generalized statement that “the rich” are collectively anti-environmental and interested only in making money anymore than a few working-class arsonists deem all working class people firebugs.

I am not required to make excuses for anyone.

CJMorgan, Your suggestion “For evidence of how being 'rich' leads to happiness, one need look no further than Col's numerous jolly and congenial posts to this forum :) Always inspirational and uplifting.”

well CJ, my posts contain some substance, I am pleased you find them, ot use your words, “inspirational and uplifting “ (the paradox of irony).

Your posts seem to be the small snipes of the impotent and focused predominantly on trying to make remarks at my expense. They are neither uplifting, inspirational, original nor humourous.

A suggestion, if you want to make a contribution try saying something which contributes to the debate, express a view, you must have some. I will be happy to debate the point but if you insist on trying to scrape sparks off me rest assured, unlike most folk around here I scrape back and usually with a far greater effect.
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 23 December 2006 9:56:32 PM
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Col , too close to Christmas to worry any more about the Dark Side ,let's relax and let the world go by for a change .
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous [depends how you make it! ] New Year to ALL the Forum Crew, kartiya.
Posted by kartiya jim, Saturday, 23 December 2006 10:19:09 PM
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