brown_eyed_girl, thank you for letting us know that you and your family are some of the Christians including your school out there that do care for animals and oppose animal cruelty.

It was a really good initial protest for your class to sing that anti-battery farming song in front of RSPCA; a pretty safe place to start since RSPCA probably agree that this is animal cruelty- did your class or teacher get any positive response from them?

I think it would have been a bigger stir (but unsafer for your school and your class) if the protest had been in front of an organisation that actually supports or profits from battery farming.

Do you still have the lyrics of that song- I’d love you to post it on here! (or is it protected by copyright?)

If you go to church, does your church leader sometimes address animal welfare issues?

Yes, Wendy I am quite surprised that extreme animal activists are not taking part in the discussion. In the “Legal Abuse of Animals” there was at least Pericles who took part in the first part of the discussion.

GY good to hear that you would actually go to talk to your kids’ school to ask questions; I wonder, Wendy, if any parents of that school you mentioned have asked questions and discussed this with the principal? I can imagine that parents feel proud when they see that their kids care much about animal welfare and wouldn’t like their children gagged.

OZGIRL how bizarre to tell kids that dinosaurs didn’t exist- what about all the evidence! Did you discuss this with the teacher- perhaps it was a misunderstanding. Anyway if it was not a misunderstanding it is unacceptable to lie to the kids about this and other things (I assume) and good on you for changing schools.

Good to see this debate heat-up

Fact: the Church IS involved in politics; my confusing Pell and Hollingworth actually underlines that point; Howard appointed Hollingworth and regularly consults with Pell on political issues. Argument validated.


In an ideal world we would have separation of church and state, but we don’t and to claim otherwise is simply deliberate obfuscation of the issue. Therefore, why the selective political involvement by the church?

As I have already pointed out, using Abbot as an example, the church involves itself actively in matters of contraception, lobbies against abortion treatments, funds family ‘planning’ clinics.

But that’s not all. The Catholic, the Anglican, the Uniting Church’s leaders have all spoken out against the IR reforms. Is this not a concerted effort by church leaders speaking out against injustice of a political nature?

Then we have Family First and don’t forget the Brethren; extreme Christians who do not vote but donate heaps to the Libs. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/brethren-linked-to-howard-campaign/2005/09/15/1126750082584.html)

It is obvious that church leaders do get involved in political issues; just not animal welfare or the environment.

I have asked why and have yet to receive a cogent answer. Plenty of excuses, which when examined do not hold up, but no real reason. And there is no excuse. Caring for our environment concerns us all; religion fails to understand that fact. As it is currently presented, religion is only about human beings – and only religious humans at that. I won’t bother to get into the petty squabbles between religious; ‘my god is the only god rhetoric’. With all this infighting, blame and disparagement of non-believers, what hope do animals have?

I acknowledge that religious INDIVIDUALS (thanks brown-eyed-girl - your dad will be proud)) get involved in animal welfare. But humane treatment of animals is not an issue for the church as a whole. There is no Salvation Army for Animals or Fauna of St Lawrence or Catholic Animal Orphanages.

The church is a narrow focus organisation. It has a capacity for great good, but remains inward looking and quite literally can’t see the forest for the trees.

Scout, why are you so angry that Christian churches don't do what you want them to do, because they're not designed that way? Very early on in this thread I pointed to a resolution of the Anglican church on animal welfare, and I'd probably be able to find other examples without much trouble. But what you want is for churches to join your crusade and I can't really work out why.

BTW, we do have a separation of Church and State and you are the one who is obfuscating in suggesting that somehow appointing Hollingworth breaches that separation. He wasn't there representing the church, anymore than Major General Jefferey is representing the army, so how is there a breach of the separation? They're both retired from their roles, and they're entitled to take on other jobs.

And so what if politicians consult churchmen, and churchmen express opinions? Everyone acknowledges that they do, but that it is not their role to get involved in political campaigns. And as the church is concerned with human beings, it's a bit illogical to expect them to be running animal refuges.

celivia, sorry, I don't have the song here! and no, we didn't present it in front of the RSPCA we actually performed it in front of International people! (can't remember who they were, but i know they were important and from all over the world) sorry, i don't know whether it's copyright, but i can remember the verse me and my friend sung:

look for the word, the word is cage,
bright colours pretty pictures are no gauge,
if it doesn't say barn-laid or free-range,
it's probably battery, can you make the change?
it's your choice that sets the chickens free!
so come on now, what's it gonna be?

there was also a cool chorus that i can't remember right now!

I would not describe myself as angry. Passionate? Absolutely. Concerned by the way you deny the influence of the church, specifically the Christian church, in Australian politics, I have to wonder why. What is your agenda? What is your opinion on political groups like Family First, The Brethren, the Federal Government’s prayer meetings – that these are not indicative of infiltration of church into politics?

I am also concerned and dismayed when a group of people claim they are more compassionate than others yet fail to follow through. A lot of talk - no action. Following on from this you seem to be claiming on one hand that the church is active on animal welfare when you reference the Anglican Church’s resolution on animal welfare and, yet go on to say that “It's not up to the Church to come to some conclusion on their (animal’s) behalf.” Are you having a bet each way here?

I don’t understand why you can’t question your own religion on this. The Christian church has evolved to some extent over the centuries; they don’t stone people to death any more. What is so wrong with asking the church to consider its role as a part of the world around it, looking at the big picture, our environment, the welfare of all animals? Without caring for our environment – there won’t be any human beings for the church to worry about.

We are clearly going round in circles on this.

So if you aren’t interested in helping in a broad way – fine, leave it there, don’t try and make up excuses that don’t hold water. All I am asking is that you consider your own responsibility towards animal welfare. For example, next time you buy eggs are ask yourself ‘are they really free-range?’ We have a list of free-range producers on the Animal Welfare site. If buying meat, do you check that the meat was from animals that were free-range and not from intensive farming practices?

You don’t have to involve your church in any of this, just your compassion.

Great verse, brown_eyed_girl, I can imagine it attracted a lot of attention. More teachers like this and more caring students like you is what we need!

You learned at a young age that animal welfare is important- just one teacher can make a difference- teaching a whole group of kids to be concerned with animal welfare not only influences those kids but also future generations.
Sorry that I was confused about the location of this protest.
I’m really impressed by what your teacher did.
It must have been hard to find out the truth about this legal abuse of chickens going on at a young age.

I’m very interested in your project and I’m sure your whole family must have been proud of you.
On our other animal welfare forum that Scout created we have been discussing eggs as well. Freeranger is our expert on this, if you are interested it is this link: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Do you have an opinion about the role of the church concerning animal welfare? Do you think it would be a good thing if the church speaks out against animal cruelty?