Wendy, please re-read my post.

I was trying to give my take on the position that a lot of moderate christains take. I'm no longer a christain and can't answer for there actions.

I think I did so politely so I don't feel the need to look in the mirror and feel shame.

Yes a lot of churches do get political but at the same time a lot of christans don't like that and often disagree with the stances taken by those who claim to speak on their behalf. As Graham correctly points out they are often working completely outside their areas of expertise and really don't know what they are talking about.

For example a male celbate catholic priest attempting to control womens reproductive rights.

I'd prefer that the churches butt out of politics and leave it to individual believers to work as they think appropriate. Instead we'll see Family (Christian) First getting a lot of votes from people with little understanding of their policies just because they are christain.

Now please reread my earlier post again, there is no attack in there (or if sounds like is it's not intended).

R0bert

Scout, all abortion debate comes back to whether you are dealing with a third life or not, and what the consequences are from that. The Church's positions on that are based on the sixth commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". Most people, Christian or not, honour that commandment. You'll find there is no monolithic position. Although being strongly anti-abortion tends to be a Catholic position in Australia, it is also a fundamentalist Protestan position in the US. And because the sixth comanndment is a secular rule as well as a religious one, I don't think Abbott has too many issues imported solely by virtue of him being a Christian.

And if some churches operate as a lobby group on abortion, that's their problem. Frame the question "Why does the Roman Catholic Church appear to care about abortion but not about animal rights." We're not all Roman you know.

Your faux pas on Hollingworth invalidates your whole argument. Pell and Hollingworth are very differen clerics with very different approaches. If the people who criticise the Christian church understood the church better they wouldn't make howlers like this. One archbishop can't be substituted for another willy-nilly.

I care about animals. I don't man barricades about it, but you won't find an animal with a bad word to say about me. I man barricades about other things. I don't condemn you because you don't man my barricades, neither should you condemn me because I'm not on yours.

Graham H...this is now turning into a real debate...im enjoying this..

That should be Graham Y.....

And to all who are posting in relation to this..I think your all great.

It is interesting that we are all meat eaters..is there a problem with this does anyone believe?

If we all on this thread boycotted meat and all related products...could that perhaps say something about our committment to the sheep export problem?

Im serious..it should start somewhere I feel...

GrahamY

You are all Roman.

Roaming around doing nothing!.

I am calling the Church leaders a bunch of hyprocrites.

Not All ,

If you cant tell the difference between corruption lerks ,perks and pews than sombody needs to point it out to you.

You did not answer, regarding Christain school head masters banning kids doing Animal Welfare Live Exports studies.


Would you want your child to be banned from expressing their thoughts towards animal cruelty. ?

Teaching the Koran in Christian schools is easier than live exports.

Do you agree with Christian Schools[in particular private Schools] being banned from teaching kids about cruelty to farm animals?

Considering 60 minutes have done many stories on the cruel live export trade the Silence from the church Leaders has been deafening?

Do you agree our lord was kind to animals and would expect us to carry that through our lives as an example.?

Do you agree that animals that are alive and suffering NOW should take first place.

You are trying to goad Celivia off post and ozgirl going on about abortion because you cant come up with a reasonable excuse for the terrible neglect from the Church to Gods creatures.

Do you agree that its EVERYBODYS reasonsibilty Muslim, Christian or otherwise to speak out about the clear barbaric cruelty that has dominated the news for three years in this country.?

Every man and his dog have become involved in the debate and live animal exports.

The ONLY group who has not said a word is the Church Leaders of this country.
Even the Muslim leaders have spoken out and put Press Realses
denouncing live exports.

So where Are?The Church Leaders.

Or have the Cats Got Their Tongues..

Do try to answer without quoting the bible.

The lord does not like his name being used! in vain.

Robert Ok I will read it again. [sorry mate]
i am very dissapointed with you but not surprised after years of writing to Church Leaders encouraging them to stop worrying about Government grants and do as the lord has asked of them as his leaders.
SHAME

Wendy- thanks for keeping us on track! ;)

Yabby I can see your point- I have to admit that I am also trying to take the opportunity to ‘use’ the involvement of the church, while I much rather see a secular state.
If the church ‘has to’ be involved, it might as well be involved in issues that are not acceptable in most people's eyes, like asking them to speak out against animal cruelty.
I’m not asking them for any extreme stands, just to remember that they should include animals when they preach.
I don't think one needs to have special knowledge or be an expert about animal cruelty, anyone with half a brain can figure out what's cruel and what's not. Leaders can read from the bible and point out that this cruelty today is a barbaric way of treating God’s creatures.

GY If the bible actually discusses animal welfare, why then is it wrong for leaders to read this from the bible and discuss it?

For example:
God says to us in Proverbs 27:23: "Be sure you know the condition of your flocks, give careful attention to your herds."
Do we know the condition of our flocks? Is it not one of the church’s duties to make people aware of the condition of our flocks and tell others to give careful attention to their herds? The church leader’s duty is teaching!

For example:
“God expects the Christian, above all others, to be sensitive to all of His creation, knowing that exploiting or abusing it shows a disrespect for God Himself.”
Is it sensitive of the Church to ignore Animal Welfare when there’s so much cruelty going on when God expects Christians ABOVE ALL OTHERS to be sensitive to His creations?

Luckily, most people have not done direct harm to animals.
But we still should be aware that we indirectly do harm animals because others are harming them and we ignore it.

continued