Christians, where the hell are ewe?

I have been wondering why, in the threads about women’s or gay rights, the Christians on OLO seem to swarm around these issues, eager to quote from the bible and express their strong anti-choice views, but I have been on a few animal welfare threads and there are no Christians interested or compassionate about the suffering of animals.

Pigs and de-beaked, de-winged chickens live squashed together in cages too cramped to even turn around; sheep and cattle are being exported to the other end of the world- under stressful and inhumane conditions- for months- until they arrive at their final destination.

Once they arrive at their destination the dead ones are the lucky ones because the ones still alive are likely to face torture and illegal slaughter, or slaughtering methods that seem horrific to Australians.

I am just trying to comprehend why it is that the Christian Church does so little about the issue of animal justice while they call themselves "the compassionate ones" (remember that article by that title?).

Why do you, Christians, continuously interfere with women’s right issues, science and gay issues but cease to care about the lives of animals?

What does the bible actually tell you about suffering of animals? Does it say somewhere that Christians should shrug their shoulders about the suffering of animals?
Please tell me why, because, being an atheist, I don’t get these things!

Celivia, interesting question. I can't answer for the christains but I can toss in my own perspective as a former christain and as someone who also tends to save most of my posts for other topics.

You might start with a look at 1 Kings 8:63 on the occasion of the dedication of the temple in Jerusalem

"Solomon offered a sacrifice of fellowship offerings to the Lord: twenty-two thousand cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats"

and in 1 Chronicles 29:21
"The next day they made sacrifices to the Lord and presented burnt offereings to him: a thousand bulls, a thousand rams and a thousand male lambs, together with their drink offerings, and other sacrifices in abundance for all Israel."

My understanding is that the sacrifices were also used to feed the crowds (in the first case a vast number of people for 14 days) so it's not all senseless waste but it's a lot of dead animals.

Each person will have their own reasons for involving themselves in different discussions but I suspect that for many christians the idea that humans are made in the image of god with an immortal soul would account for the strong involvement in the issues about humans compared to issues about the brief flicker of the lives of soul-less animals. Same kind of rational for involvement in environmental issues.

I'm not sure why I get less interested, maybe some of my christain background along with growing up on a farm. I'll go out of my way to help a suffering animal and I put effort into provide suburban habitat for wildlife (nesting boxes, a frog pond, bird friendly tree's etc).

I am more interested in the welfare of native animals than introduced animals but recognise the suffering of one is no less important than the suffering of another.

R0bert

Because most of the christians on here don't really care about suffering, they just get off on the idea of imposing their moral beliefs on everybody else.

Thank you so much Celivia, I was going to start a discussion called 'where's ST Francis when you need him?'

But you have saved me - I have left a challenge to the usual fundys on the "fuzzy thinking on religion" thread.

In a way I'm not sure what they can contribute to the Animal Welfare discussion as they never contribute to any of the other animal welfare threads.

What I would like to see is an explanation from any of them on this discussion thread.

Why do fundys care more about foeti than ALL living creatures?

PickledH

With a few words you have summed it up.
Except they are also supposed to be people as well.
Many of them just dont know the truth. There are many good people who go to Church just like there are many good people who join these Animal Welfare Groups. I will tell you what happens from the churches Down To the Animal Welfare Groups.
Its controlled and they are mostly mislead. See if the Preacher gets up and informs his flock about what is happening they would mostly respond and support him or her.
Well then thats easy all the we have to do is ask the church Leaders to speak out.
hello Hello Whos that heading for the hills!
Well why would they run a mile?
They are TOLD what to support by way of grants from the Government.
Ok Well gee I guess we cant do anything about that then can we if the churches are too scared of speaking out.?
WRONG
Yes we CAN and Yes we will!
We will knock on the doors, ring on the bells, tap on the windows too!. If they dont come tonight and do what is RIGHT, We will tap and KNOCK and Ring and tapping knocking ring until YOU DO. SHAME SHAME ON CUURCH LEADERS.
PUT GODS CREATURES BEFORE HOWARDS GRANTS. WHERE Coming After You!

Scout lets get Everybody Standing outside the churchers AND THE POLLING BOOTHS , make a few banners. Family First thought it was a good idea to bring religion into politics. [ or Howard did]

I can recall the day whe it was illegal for the church to get involved with government. Right Then We can Stand up to the cruel National :Party by asking family first to do the right thing.

You have clearly put up the Chritians as an offering to the fair minded public that want live animal exports stopped and intensive farming. THANK YOU MR HOWARD. Its the best gift Animal Welfare minded people have had from your Government.
You little Beauty!

MESSAGE TO FAMILY FIRST PARTY
COMING AFTER YOU.

Gee forgot the AVA Australian Vetinary Association. Scarey Name sort of reminds me of the marfia.
Wonder how many members of the AVA who sit on the boards are members of which parties/ Umm. perhaps we will post some names later.

The Animal Welfare Advisers who vote on this just like the AVA boards are ridled with conflicts of interest. Did You Know?
The Government REFUSE the advise of ANY Vet that is not a member of the AVA. A vets first job is to care for animals There are thousands of vets opposing intensive farming and live exports but howard only listens to these AVA guys. We all know it was set up by him three weeks after he was elected.
;look at some of the grants and fundings shall we apart from the churches.

Well now we have landmark that donate [live exporters but they are busy at the moment with the cole Enwuiry trying to lie their way out of things like the AWB and The Government.

Universitys and schools you would think would be safe from bullies.

These same places are given the jobs to write vetinary and educational reports that are funded by the cruel live exporters. The public needs to know this.

The CHURCH NEED TO FIND A BACK BONE. Even The Muslim leaders have spoken out about the cruelty of live exports insisting its the Government push and NOT THEIR reigious belief.

SO AGAIN WHERE ARE THE GOOD CHURCH LEADERS?

Scout and Celia need all the help they can get and God is with them even if they dont really ask for it.

The truth is these twp people are more christian than most of the church Leaders. They just dont know it.

Cecila and Scout.
Go for Gold We support you all the way.
its a bloody honour to have met you both.
Sorry guys but I am an old Farmer investigator and I swears sometimes.
I hope god Will forgive me but this church lot Would make A saint Swear

Thank you, RObert, Pickled herring (nice name, are you a herring from the North Sea, hehe) and Scout.

RObert,
thanks for providing those bible quotes; true that the Church is only human-focussed. What I’d like to gain from this discussion is for Christians to explain why they think that animals are not worthy of their compassion- and to make them realise that they can help make a difference if they allow themselves to open up to this issue.
In a previouscomment on the ‘Legal Abuse of Animals’ article I said, in short: “I find it saddening that these (religious and church) groups have a lot of potential power to make positive changes for the animals, but that nothing positive happens … These groups could be such an asset to animals and farmers if only…”

Scout,
perhaps your title including ST Francis would have been a better title than this one! We can keep that for later ;)
Perhaps Christians feel attacked by my title- not surprisingly, but I wanted to attract their attention to animal discussions. I found this on the net:

“ Francis wrote a Canticle of the Creatures, an ode to God’s living things. “All praise to you, Oh Lord, for all these brother and sister creatures.”

Wendy, thanks for sharing your knowledge about the politics on this animal topic.
If there is a group of vets that put the animals first, they could form a group outside the AVA and make their voices heard!
Christians,
if you think that animals are not worthy of your compassion, think about the fact that many things in life are related; think about cause-effect.
If you agree with the cause/effect theory, then animal welfare DOES have an effect on people’s issues and therefore the church leaders should get involved.

Perhaps we could make these connections, between animal welfare and human welfare in this discussion, or alternatively, we could open a new discussion about this, if there’s no response.

For example, cramming as many chickens as possible together in cages is a breeding ground for diseases, like the birdflu or mad-cow disease

Sorry Wendy, I forgot to include your name in my thanks in the previous post- while you are such a valuable contributor (and door banger!). Just didn't properly double-check what I wrote.

To continue:
Chickens (pigs etc) have to be fed antibiotics routinely to keep diseases at bay- if you feed your kids meat from animals raised on antibiotics it may have an effect on their health.
Will your children become resistant to some strains of bacteria? What will happen if this goes on and on for the next hundred years: it surely can't be healthy for people to keep consuming these kind of products!

I just want to stress that I am not out to merely attack religious people- I want to stimulate Churches involvement, if not for the sake of the animals, then for the sake of the future health of your children.

I said something about the health connection, but there are other connections too: what about jobs for Australians? Slaughtering the animals here in Australia instead of live exporting them will provide many more jobs, meaning fewer poor Australians.
I know you want to help jobless people, here's your chance.

Some Christians, I have noticed, seem to favour the straight-edge view, saying that ‘being homoseexual’ is unnatural, that it is unnatural for women to take contraceptive pills etc.

If you are one of these straight-edgers, and you like unnaturalness, ask yourself: Is it natural for our animals to live in cramped, unnatural conditions all their lives, and is it natural for them to spend up to three months on some dirty ship to be exported before they are being slaughtered? Is it natural that antibiotics are part our food-chain? Is it natural that we consume this meat/produce?

Hello everybody,
I loved to go to church as I teenager in the middle of the night.
It seemed to me the only place to find peace.
But many years later I dropped out of the Church as they -to me personally- seem only to be interested in collecting monies to buy and keep their estates.
I noticed that our Priests hardly spoke of animals in a sense that we should look after them and if they did it was on the day the animals were blessed.
As the words are very limited on this forum I will give you the name and one particular paragraph which springs to my mind so you can read it up yourselves. I can't find the other ones in a hurry as the bookmarks fell out of the good book when I moved.
Deuteronomy 22:1-7

I also would like to remind you to sign the Petition Against Live Exports which you can find here.

To view the Petition signatures: http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

To sign the Petition:
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/Petition.php

Thats an easy question to answer they have retired into their own private little hells to find someone else they can judge and punish. Why do they insist on their blasphemouse activities taking away their gods only earthly pleasure ie sending the wicked to eternal damnation (I've often wondered if that meant being demoted to a muslim or vice versa if your a muslim).

I generally tend to take the position that I don't really care what people believe, just as long as they don't try to push it down everyone else's throat. But the total absence [so far] of the religiously moralising ones on this thread, and also on the animal welfare thread, really does show them up for the hypocrites they are. People like that may be the main reason for the drift away from organised religion, even though many people who leave the churches do retain their spiritual feelings.

Still no need to duck for flying halo's coming my way?

Do you know what- it's obvious that we've been snobbed by the church goers on here. Surely they must have been curious about the title and read the post, but then they left without commenting.

I'd hate to be so ashamed of my convictions that I couldn't even defend my beliefs and views if they were questioned. Don't you feel ashamed, church-goers?

Ignoring the animal lovers as much as the animals themselves is probably their best defense- I mean how could they reasonably justify the church's lack of compassion for the suffering animals? There is no logic justification, is there?

Perhaps the church can go crying holy tears to the media again for being under attack. I wonder why! Perhaps if they were a bit more open minded and a bit more compassionate, they'd be respected more and less attackable.

We'll see, perhaps time for St Francis to go knocking on the closed church doors, Scout and Wendy. Give it a few more days? Wait till Tuesday, perhaps some will still go to church on Sunday to ask others or the church leader for advice on this issue- there's always hope!

Christians, it might sound like I dislike religious people, but I honestly don't, but I don't like your uncaring attitude towards animals that are, often unnecessarily, suffering. I do recognise that the church does a lot of good things as well.

Thanks, all of you, for your sensible words and wonderful support!
Such a shame you're not Christian church goers ;)

BOAZ quickly grabs his halo and hurrrrls it spinning at Celivia..*TAKE THAT* :)

ok.. I did involve myself in the abuse of animals thread, but that aside, I find the idea of cruelty to animals abhorrent.

I lost interest in that thread when Pericles made my head explode by claiming that domestic pets are 'enslaving' animals... or words to that effect.

Now normally Pericles has a lot of wisdom, even the critical kind, but I thought if that is the level of the thread.. it ain't for me.

I suppose we (Christians) tend to prioritize the issues that we allow our passion to be unloaded onto.

The issue of say battery hens, is a political one. Cramped pigs also.
Having owned chickens I must confess I don't have as much sympathy for them as I do for pigs. Chickens are heartless whimsical murderers of their fellows.. trust me, I've seen it.

I don't have a problem with live export as long as conditions are humane. I DO have a problem with Live export when it is specifically done at the expense of Australian abbotoirs jobs.. and have had correspondence with Wendy about this.

We do focus more on the issues we feel are critical for the general survival of the community, and on the issues of homosexual behavior, gender issues, etc.. well, like us or lump us, but puh-lease..understand us and don't portray us in propogandist ways.

Given the choice of issue into which to pour my passion, I choose the issue of freedom of speech, religious freedom from Sharia law and freedom from being bombed to oblivion by some some whackos.

Keep up the good work on reducing animal cruelty, you have my moral support.
My view is that a redeemed community will also reject extremist capitalism, hence removing the drive for ever increasing bottom lines which in turn create cruelty to animals to achieve such ends.
The Pit Ponies in Wales did not understand the humane treatment they received after the revival, they were used to abuse. Renewed people should result in less cruelty.

BOAZ, yes you are right, I went back and checked the Legal Animal Abuse thread- funny what you said about the psychotherapy ;) It is obvious, from your opinion in that thread, that you do care about animals and that you are a Christian ; )

I can’t say I blame you for escaping that debate with Pericles- I struggled with her as well on that topic.
Anyway, thank you for having your say here.

Yes, it is true that the problem of hens and pigs is a political one- no wonder that most politicians don’t seem to worry much about animals apart from their economical contribution: animals can’t vote.

But really, isn’t it also an ethical issue?
I read somewhere that RSPCA was founded by an Anglican priest and that in the past, and that more well-known Christians have been involved in animal welfare.

So, if animal welfare was on the agenda of the Church in the past, for some reason the Church must have lost interest.
I am glad, in a way, to realise this- if the Church, in the past, must have found it worthwhile to put animal welfare on their agenda, then perhaps they can somehow rekindle this interest and put it back on their agenda again.

If the Church is able to care about the ethics on other issues, then I can’t see why they wouldn’t be able to care about animal issues. Christians (and non-christians alike) are able to think outside their own needs and wants, and can genuinely care about the needs of others. To just make their circle of ethics a little bit bigger so that it can include the animal issue would be a caring and Christian thing to do especially since almost everything is connected with everything else and it’s unclear where to have the cut-off points in where there’s a limit in how far the care is ‘allowed’ to go.

Perhaps we can talk also about the funding of the church by the govt and that this may influence the church's agenda?

David

Your comment apprecited.
I may not be posting anymore.

PETA kills more dogs than they save.
Its a multi million dollar fund raiser.
They upset our farmers and public by telling people not to eat meat.

Thats not a good way to draw symphthy for animals.
The first meeting I had years ago they send a plant into my private home! to get everybodies phone numbers.

After That I was Run Off The Road and threatend. [ charming]

EXTREAM FUND RAISERS, who raise money for their own use to create well paid jobs.

Since When has Australia been all veg or vegans?

"special Ministers" Eric Abetze, Shults got upset about the Ban Live Export Rallys before the elections and threatend to take the tax deduction from the RSPCA.

Senator Andrew Bartlett refused to work with PALE ,HKM despite being our local Senator.

He Held fund raisers and meetings and is even on the web site of PETA An American group.

We Spoke for the animals and the 96 percent of Australians who eat meat.
The Government prefer to deal with the extream lot. They rightfully discreit them to the public.

Its of course all very political.

Stand up for the 96 percent of people who enjoy a steak. BUT MAKE IT Quick And Kind.

Stand up for a fair Go for Animals and jobs for Australia and especially the farmers who have been squeezed out by the corperate lot.

It only makes sense as Asia and Middle East grows they order more meat.

We need to have an arrangment with them to support Australia Farmers by share farming, slaughtering here.!

However that would effect Murdoch Packer Le courts just to mention a few who are live exporters. AND THAT would upset the political donations.

SO The cruelty continues.

I hope everybody invovled Rots in Hell.

Especially The good Church Leaders.

Steve Fielding jobs for Australia, compashion! for Animals
[ Gods creatures!]

Where are ewes ?

God Bless the Animals because nothing will save your souls Family First and Good Christians as you hide behind the Vaile.

Wendy, thank you for showing what 'really' goes on. I can so understand your frustration with all the organisations- I'm sick of them already and you've been doing this for years! Good on you, I hope you won't give up.

I don't blame you for deciding not to post here anymore- this will probably be the last one I'm writing here as well- there is not much point if there is no response from the target group except BOAZ;
thanks again BOAZ for appearing here- *passing you back your halo* and perhaps you can think about *hinting* to your church leaders that our suffering animals need them to care a little more.
It won't do them any harm to hear that some Christians are animal lovers and are concerned.

Thanks to all of you lovely people for expressing your opinions- hope to meet you in anoher discussion.

Celiva.

Look as you guys [yourself and scout] and the others went to the trouble of posting I will just have to continue. Part out of respect for you both and part out of frustration.
So if you wouldnt mind helping me find a few hundred email address of Churches we will send the forum to them. Both the Forums yours and Scouts.
Also the other one. Then I will send the results to 60 minutes mail bag. They might Like to Do A story on It , [who knows] as live Expports was close to Richards heart.
We have a wool bag full of letters from everyday people and I am sure some of those people would be church People.
From there I guess we could start another petition from the church people To The church Leaders To do their job.We will get that out to the media as well as many journos are still very interested in this issue. Especially a scoop story exposing Church Leaders so your forum girls will play a big part.

We could probably easily get thousands of signatures and present it to the Church Leaders including Steve Fielding.

We must remember however his party only holds one seat at the moment. Still if the cap fits etc.

Anyway please leave your posts open girls because the less interest the more you have proved your points.

I will get about to kicking up a bit of dust in the next few weeks to support you and Scout.

Never know a storm might blow through.
In the mean time I will put up some info for yourself scout and your readers.

perhaps next post I will tell post about sending the strippers to the AWB enquiry. That might even get Philos attention[smile]

MAN who swung a kitten by its tail and slammed it
repeatedly on to a road as his friends laughed was yesterday given a
one-year good behaviour bond.

Jamie Stephen Thorley, 23, of Doonside, could have faced a jail
sentence of up to two years for the brutal attack which killed the
three-month-old kitten on May 31 this year.

BUT INSTEAD! Parramatta Local Court Magistrate Geraldine Beattie made
He was found
guilty of aggravated animal cruelty, resisting police arrest and
malicious damage.

The RSPCA said yesterday they were concerned that the good behaviour
bond would send the wrong message to the community.

RSPCA chief inspector David O'Shannessy said the attack had been
particularly cruel.

"The sentence is disappointing from the point of view that this animal
died as a consequence of the attack," Mr O'Shannessy said.

"It would have been a fairly horrific way to die and the fact that
similar offences in similar months have met with more severe penalties
in the form of custodial sentences.

been given - our concern is a sentence such as this could be
misconstrued by members of the public.

"Animal cruelty to defenceless animals is unacceptable."

The court had heard Thorley was drunk when he picked up the kitten on
Delany St, Doonside. He stroked it at first before swinging it by its
tail over his head and repeatedly slamming it into the road.

Thorley and the friends he was with laughed as the attack unfolded.

Thorley told the court he had no recollection of the event because he
had mixed 350ml of rum with his schizophrenia medication that day.

When the attack took place Thorley was supposed to be facing Wyong
Local Court answering charges of break and enter and stealing a car.

Under NSW's tough new animal cruelty laws, an aggravated matter
carries with it a maximum two-year jail term.

In a test case of the new laws, a 45-year-old Blackett man was jailed
for a year in June after torturing and trying to drown a kitten.

WHERE THE HELL ARE EWE?

[Deleted for complete irrelevance to the thread. Poster suspended.]

Hello Celivia,

May I make a suggestion?

I personally believe that you should change the heading of your forum from
Christians, where the hell are ewe?
to
Christian Leader turn their back on animal cruelty.

It might attract more attention.
Just a thought.

Celivia.
I agree With Antje Struthmann. Something Like. >
Church leaders turn their back on Animal Cruelty.
Celivia I hope you will re consider leaving your own forum. The posts above of yours and in particular the one where you speak of Vets and foring some Vet groups etc is very worth while on following up.
You have shown great leadership and wisdom and the animals certainly need people like you to stick around.

The Reason I said I would not post for a while was personal and due to the loss of a dear loved one.
However if you will continue I certainly will support you.

I hope you keep up your great forum and I should think if you do consider the new title the flock would rush in the comment.
Thats just my Thought
AL
Apart from All of that do you personally like animal cruelty.?

please leave religion out of your reply.

Its A simple Question.

I have to comment on Boaz (Celivia you are far more generous than I) - he really likes to paint himself as the 'good' guy.

I know that I am cynical, but he has not gone over to the Animal Welfare thread to offer any form of contribution, such as email address for his church group? Or even a vote of support. I have always found Boaz disingenuous and I have no reason to change my opinion.

The only other 'christian' poster has been ALL - whose only contribution was to denigrate muslims (yet again) and some kind of obscure reference of women as animals. Well, I know that wasn't his intention, but yes women are animals, so are men - we are mammals in fact and as top of the animal kingdom we are both obligated and responsible for the well being of our animal family.

Well thats my two cents - feeling better now.

[Deleted as it refers to thread further up which has also been deleted.]

All-

Thank you for your concern regarding the treatment of animals, now do you know of any email addresses of religious groups to whom we could to present a case for animal welfare?

So far BD has just excused himself and you have:

Bashed another religion

and expressed concern for animals.

Guess I am asking you to put your money where your mouth is, mate.

All
Thanks for your answer. I can hear what you are saying now. Its really hard isnt it. Sometimes I think we would be better off without any religion and just replace it with good and bad people.
Well We have good and bad people already of course but you know what I mean.
If you dont mind I will take a crack at answering the question that Scout Asked you but of course respond for yourself.

I would guess your reply would be > No I dont really know anyone .
Scout I will Scout around for my Few Good Men List and post it for you.
The trouble is they are already doing as much as they can.
Perhaps we could write them a thanks or something as much of their work goes[unthanked]

The problem is we need to reach the people who attend the church and give them the facts about the cruelty of Intensive farming and live exports so THEY can demand their Church Leaders act.

Many Church Leaders dont know about it either because oif the hush hush from the mediawith Murdoch packer and people like Vanstone.[ You can only try to imagine the media control. We had another Cormo rIGHT HERE in Austrialia a few months ago Scout. Thousands of sheep stuck onboard in WA[terribly]
No Press would run the story! Believe me there are thousands more with huge conflicts of interest.
To be honest Steve Fielding of Family first is THE ONE to preshure[goodluck]. He represents the christian Churches not only for the church but parliament for the people.
I think your doing a great job and when you wrote him tell him we are ALL interested in his reply to our letter after the meeting with him.
Give em Hell!
I got the feeling your the right person for the job along with Celivia and I am glad I am on you guys team.
I am posting a Press address from RSPCA President about CHURCHES and Animal Welfare next. might run over to a few posts.
Thanks again Al for your comment.

Scout, "some kind of obscure reference of women as animals" I'm guessing that you missed vetmans post which was deleted. Be very gratefull, it took a while to get the PC cleaned up after that one.

R0bert

Thanks, people, I said I would close this discussion as I thought it was dieing. Since there have been so many replies still, I agree with you, Wendy, to keep this open, if only to proof a point!
I haven’t had much time to post, and I’ll post some more soon, see how much I can fit in today.

Wendy, a fantastic idea to collect church’s’ email addresses; your suggestions are excellent, as usual. Hopefully media would be willing to work on this. You sound like you are going to make them ;)

I am also planning (will do so tomorrow) to send this discussion to AVA, Vaile, Family First (animals last?) and as many vets in my area as I can, including my own vet. Wendy, yes disgraceful about the kitten torture, and now on the news was also this distressing story about the seal shooting by Australian fishermen- why… because seals eat fish- uhhhm what are they supposed to eat, bullets?
Wouldn’t surprise me if these killers got off lightly too- even though they were not drunk.
Seems to me that the best defense anyone can have before abusing anyone including animals is to make sure to get drunk before you act instead of ‘think before you act’; you’ll get a lighter sentence. Wonderful world!

Antje and Wendy, I have tried if I could change the title because I agree that it would be a more appropriate title, but I haven’t been able to find out so I have asked the administrators if it’s possible- will let you know about the reply.

continued

Church leaders hopefully want to keep their reputation and their halo’s. As Shakespeare said:

"Reputation, reputation, reputation! O! I have lost my reputation. I have lost the immortal part of myself and what remains is bestial."

I just thought they should remind themselves that without their reputation, the church will even lose more adherents- something that they are afraid of.

ALL, I realise that NO religion is innocent (perhaps the Buddhists are being closest to being animal-friendly) but it really doesn’t matter which religion is the worst offender or which one has the brightest halo- fact is, there's much violence in ALL off the holy books, and in my view it’s best to burn all these books and start using our own reasoning, ethics, morals and conscious. The thing to concentrate on is: WILL CHURCH LEADERS OPEN THEIR HEART AND IMPROVE THINGS FOR SUFFERING ANIMALS?

In this discussion I prefer to concentrate on the Christian leaders though, as the Islamic leaders as Wendy has mentioned have already agreed to improving things for animals by using stun guns before slaughter and by slaughtered here in Australia to save them the live export torture- the meat can be shipped chilled or frozen- no problems with that from Islamic leaders.
Correct me if I’m wrong about that, Wendy.

So please no more Islam bashing in this discussion. Also, women’s issues can be discussed somewhere else. Bible isn’t exactly women-friendly either- open a discussion about that and I’ll be happy to have a say too, but not here.

Scout, about BOAZ, I don’t really know him, haven’t been on this forum that long and had very little to do with him. I think I was just over the moon to see a Christian on here- they are scarce ;) But thanks for pointing that out. It was kind of ‘brave’ of him to show up here by himself, and I wanted to make him feel welcome and was hoping/suggesting he’d mention it to his church leader.
Will you, BOAZ, pretty pretty please with a free range leg of Australian slaughtered lamb on top?

After reading a few posts I would hazard a guess that any 'christian' in his right mind would avoid this thread like the plague..is he going to get a fair hearing anyway?This all sounds a bit too much like 'school yard bullying' to me, the us and them mentality.

I dont profess to be a 'christian' as such but I cant help but feel that this discussion is so heavily weighted as to be useless.
Diversity of opinion is what its about and if you only want to listen to your own voice, then we learn nothing and remain ignorant.

Dont pigeonhole christians as one eyed cruel bigots when that charcterisation represents only a small section of those people.They are people too,and should not be marginalised..come on ladies, fair go here.

People like Philo sure,he is very one eyed but this is very simplistic and unbalanced, even if the intention to start with was well intentioned...

Animal welfare is of paramount importance ,dont muddy the waters by slinging mud.

Thank you to Lachlan, for having changed the title of this thread on my request. Greatly appreciated- I hope everyone is happy with the new title?

OZGIRL, thanks for saying that Animal Welfare is of paramount importance- I’m glad you agree with us that it is important, so you are invited to perhaps add something positive to this discussion to make it 'useful'.

You are also invited to gather that large section of Christians you talk about; the section that is not oblivious and disinterested in animal suffering- we;ll all be delighted to see these compassionate christians on here!

They’ll be treated like they deserve to be treated: like compassionate people.

Tell us where they hang out, OZGIRL, because sure as hell they're not hanging out in church; Wendy wrote piles of letters to churches to ask for a bit of help, but NO REPLY from our wonderful church leaders and their flock.

OZGIRL, don’t tell me what we can or can’t talk about; anyone can start any discussion on any topic they like and I happen to like this topic. You are totally oblivious of the reason we have started this discussion.
You say that you have only read a few posts- that gives you no right to tell us what to talk about. If you had read our threads/posts you would understand why I have started this thread and why we are frustrated with the lack of compassion from Christians.

Atm you don’t know what you’re talking about as you have missed essential information. Didn’t you read that we do WANT to find out why Christians are staying away from animal welfare threads, that’s the whole point- I don't get it.

Even though I had some criticism about the way you judged our discussion, this is not meant to be personal but to let you know that you are not informed enough to tell us what to talk about. You are very welcome to add to this discussion. If you can’t find the other Animal Welfare threads and are interested I’ll paste the links for you next time.

It is scientifically proven that there is a link between cruelty to animals and cruelty to people etc.

The search engines are full of websites relating to the topic. There are also many books available dealing with the topic.

Pathway to Violence Against People by Merz-Perez Linda

Cruelty To Animals And Interpersonal Violence: Readings In Research and Application by Randall Lockwood

Child Abuse, Domestic Violence, and Animal Abuse: Linking the Circles of Compassion for Prevention and Intervention by Frank R. Ascione

Children and Animals: Exploring the Roots of Kindness by Frank R. Ascione

Brute Force: Policing Animal Cruelty by Arnold Arluke

The Power and Promise of Humane Education by Zoe Weil

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/abuse_connection.php

I believe the Churches especially have a huge role to play in educating mainly their adult flock that animal cruelty is not acceptable and that all humans should be at least caring for God`s creatures with compassion and treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve.
After all Animals have souls Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, 29

Church Leaders play an important role in educating their people that mistreating an animal is not acceptable and should be condoned.
Some time ago I had been lobbying the politicians to include animal welfare (raising domestic animals like chickens and rabbits, Guinea pigs etc.) in their school curriculum in order to teach children to look after and care for these creatures.

Animals too suffer from pain, stress and grief, like human do.

As somebody said:”A world without animals is a world unfit for humans”.

Celivia I was going to say something to Ozgirl however you have done far better job than I.

Ozgirl, if you have read the post what it says are there many good people going to Church who are not being guided by the Church Leaders.
They run a Mile because they are frightened of loosing their Government Grants.
60 Minutes have now done 5 Documentaries on the barbaric treatment of animals, yet not one word from our Church Leaders except the Muslim Leaders.
If the cap fits wear it.
What can you do to help the animals?

Celvia,

I do believe I did add something of great importance...the 'outing' of this whole new concern on the animal wefare topic, apart from of course Wendy.
Going back the the abortion pill thread it was I who pointed out how Wendy had to fight to get anyone to listen to her re. this whole topic and it was I who supported her stance then when noone else was interested.

Scout to her credit did then open an Animal Welfare thread and it generated great interest and that was fantastic...

So me thinks Celivia you have a short memory.You started the thread so you now own it?Gosh, how exclusive are 'we'?

I never said you cannot talk about anything in the world you so wish...but generalisations and victimisation does a great disservice to your cause. I do detect a note of patroniastion by you but thats best left alone for now..but lets just say its not just directed at me this very moment.

I know the church has a lot to answer for in regards to many issues in society, issues of humanity, this topic and many others, but in the world you live in re this forum ,man is judged alone by how many links he can provide on a topic,?How sad.
When did our own opinion come to mean nothing at all?

Sorry I upset you..but we cant all be in agreeance on everything , that is not the real world.The school yard 'lingo' came out again there very clearly didnt it?...you like that 'we' word.

And by the way..I have no problem with anything Wendy has posted on here..she has always had deep issues with the Church and christians(disspassionate ones) over this issue...no back flip from her do I detect.

So I guess I will say it is not up to you to 'drum up' negative feeling toward me because I dare question the tone of this thread...not the content as such but the tone..
Just look at the title'christians where the hell are ewe?' whats with that?How would any christian feel welcome to appear on this thread and put in any kind of comment wether it be in the affirmative or not...?Hostile.

So i cant provide you with a 'link' to highlight and give further insight into an issue such as that ...sorry.

Its about balance and welcoming all input, including mine.

Antje, thanks for those book titles- that’s enough research to make the statement reasonable that there's a connection between caring for animals and caring for people.
Goodness me, there are so many people who haven’t learned to care- I saw a little bit this morning on Sunday at 9 about elderly people being ripped off their pension and even houses by their own children/grandchildren/ How terrible! I agree that it is very good for children to have animals in their lives- they learn to care, respect, to feel compassion for someone else than themselves.
Good idea, the lobbying. How did that go- any success?

OZGIRL, agree with you on the title, was a bit confronting, that’s why I changed it.
I don’t care what you think about me so I’m not upset. Let’s try not to get personal.

The two things you have said that we agree upon:
That animal issues are important.
That the church has a lot to answer for. I fully agree ;)

Dear Celivia and all,

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am Michael, a 25 yr old guy who believes in Jesus (i.e, I am a Christian).

Secondly, I would like to show what my Leader's..Jesus Christ's attitude towards animals.

" I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. " John 10:11

" Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. " Matthew 6: 26

" Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven. "
Matthew 6:27

Thirdly, I would like to say : " I hate Animal-cruelty acts like Bull-fighting, Cock-fighting for the delight of people. I hate animal torture.

I am not a veggie; I do eat meat. It's good for health. "

And I have a few questions for you: 1) Why do you want us to campaign? 2) What do you think of me, in the light of my above statements ? 3) At the moment, Humans are cruelly killed: Animals are cruelly killed. What should be our priority?

I hope you reply to my questions.

Thanks in advance.
Michael.

Michael.

Try This





The Solution
"The Greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Vivisection is the blackest of all the black crimes that man is at present committing against God and His fair creation. If ill becomes us to invoke in our daily prayers the blessings of God, the Compassionate , if we in turn will not practice elementary compassion towards our fellow creatures"
-Mahatma Gandh

Celivia

Congrats on changing the title, perhaps it has already been effective and I would like to welcome Michael4love for both his post and his genuine concern for animals. I would like to point out (others may correct me) but I think the majority of the animal welfare posters do eat meat - you don't have to be a vegetarian to care about the well being and treatment of animals.

R0bert

You were correct I didn't read vetman's post before it was deleted - wish I had.

Ozgirl

I take your point about 'mudslinging' - guess I have been around OLO too long, I have taken very hefty personal abuse from BD and his ilk in the past. If you thought I was bullying, then I apologise, however BD was not bullied on the 'abuse to animals' thread, he just found Pericles perspective on pets extreme. I still maintain that while he has expressed concern he hasn't contributed. It is not as if he is a 'shrinking violet' on OLO - he is very persistent when the issues are about Muslims or atheists. He could help. I would really appreciate some email contacts to religious organisations - have tried to google but there are so many it is overwhelming.

Basically, it seems to me that the more extreme christians like to dish it out and I am sure their skins are thick enough to discuss animal welfare.

Maybe we should re-re-name this thread to "Christians love animals too".

I dunno - the silence of the lambs is deafening, Clarice.

;-)

4 The love of Pete Michael

That ones been around for years.

If for no other reason you should read the reaserch that clearly links Animal Abuse to people abuse.

Fancy having to beg the Church Leaders to speak out against Animal cruelty.
Worse still fancy suggesting that because people sometimes murder others we should say nothing about Gods creatures who can not speak for themselves. Thats very twisted reasoning .

http://www.rspca.org.au/mediareleases/MRShow.asp?ID=90

Please read RSPCA Presidents Dr Hugh Wirth recent Press Release.

He tries to address some of the problems with Animal Welfare clearly pointing the finger at Church Leaders Attitude.[ They are plenty more]

After having said all of that I would like to thank you for saying a few words rather having just ignored us.

The animals need your help Michael its that simple.

There are millions of good people who are Christian, muslims and many others as well.
This post however is about the lack of interest from church Leaders towards animal cruelty, not the members of the flock.

For the first time in Australia 60 minutes and others ran not one but five segs on the cruelty of live exports and intensive farmimg. The Silence from the Church Leaders IS deafening.

Its clearly THEIR job to speak out and lead the way towards compassion to animals.

Its just as clear they fear loosing their government Grants so lets call a spade a spade Michael shall we.?

I am not having a go at You Michael, I am having a go at them and rightfully so.
Your Young and probably dont know the depth this sinks to , but it goes to the bone of the issue, the moral fiber of Christians and what that is meant to be.

Is there anything at all you can think of you could do to help us to get them to do the job God Expects.

Any Ideas would be appreciated. Thanks For coming on this forum its a pity a few more were not like you.

Dont forget to read some of the RSPCA Press Release.

Go In Peace

Scout, you of all people I would not accuse of lowering your standards to gain any kind of recognition for yourself, so if I lumped you in there I apolagise, as I said it was the overall tone that was a little unsettling..
I have always found you fair and not one to forgo your opinion simply to 'fit in' .
This same attribute I see in Wendy.

Cheers

Cool OZGIRL

I am just fed up to the back teeth with the holy rollers at present, I try to be fair, not sure if I always succeed.

I find it significant that the religious are so NOT involved in the environmental threads of which the care of animals is a part. One would think that they had already reached heaven and have no need to care for the planet which sustains them. And it is religious politician's who hold the power in our country at present AND they can't separate themseves from their religion and their responsibility for the greater good of all creatures, great and small.

Enough said on that.

You, me, Wendy, Celivia and all - we ARE making a difference. Simply by speaking about our concerns we are getting our thoughts out into the ether, into the universal consciousness; the more good we do and think, the more will be created.

I'm sure you've had one of those days which starts wrong and then gets worse. I don't believe opposites attract, from my experience negativity attracts like and the best way to clear a bad day is humour, a smile and moving forward.

We are not stuck with the current way of things, the one thing we can count is change. Lets make it a good change!

Love to all.

Celivia Scout

Great posts from everybody

The Mark Vaile thingy is up to you. I should think Brad Willaims his right hand man would seen OLO anyway.

AVA. The more the better.

I should tell where we are up to regarding getting the Government to look at adopting a Co joint venture policy with Australian Farmers and overseas purchasers of meat.

We have received a reply From The Prime Minister.1`5 .2006[ Pretty Standard]

However the Hon Peter McGauran has stated he finds the overseas live importers and Aussie farmers co joint venture idea "interesting , in principle."

What he requested is reasonable. A small biz plan or something similar.{ no easy task for Clancy here who writes with a thumb nail dipped in tar.]

Employed business Consultant however he suffered a heart attack.

Perhaps this is where the Church leaders could Help the Animals.?

I am sure they have contacts with Business consultants.

AVA should support it.If not I will be asking why.

There is something about Peter McGauran I like. As I have never met him I cant quite say but I think hes a leader.
The biggest Problem I can see is the huge amount of misinformation given him from left right and center.

It would be a daunting job with people in many cases straight out telling him lies.

Then he would have as much trouble with extremists as we do.

Hes got the farmers, that thanks to extremists, are convinced that all Animal Welfare groups are against people eating meat.

Hes got PETA and the Anti meat eating lot Animal Liberation who destroy some wonderful work they do by telling others not to eat meat.

Now hes got people knocking on the door saying please consider doing it this way.
On top of that I guess he has to toe the line given the way in which this has been entrenched for years.

AWB kick backs only being a small part of it.

Hopefully , God Willing one of the Church Leaders at Least might help us spearhead this through by helping with A business consultant.

OzGirl .

little buddy
The bad attitude probably rubs off from me. Its so frustrating to write thousands of letters to Church leaders AND sent footage without one! relpy. I even flew from the gold Coast To Melbourne to see Steve Fielding with our CEO RSPCA up here and still no reply after two years. Fair go what would you say.
I have been doing that for six years. Mud would be clean to the lack of responsibilty that is blood on their! hands. I make no bones about the fact I think Church Leaders have been an utter discrace.

Yes its true you gave the first break on that other forum to the Animals. At least you acknowledged that Animals should not suffer at the hands of people and we should not turn our Christian Backs on them.

Now as your going to be a Social Worker may I impose on you to give your thoughts on this please.?

http://www.horsehandler.com.au/documentaries.htm

Remember we both share the interest in helping the Aboriginal people and kids in Regional Areas, this helps them and the Animals.

This Programe has been run In many countries such as Malaysia Indonesia just to mention a few.

It has been done in conjunction with Christian and Muslim leaders with great sucess.

If it were combined with job oportunitys working in with this co joint proposal it could be a win win for Animals Aboriginals Churches And Australia.

There would be funding available but i wont lie it would have its challangers to kick start here in our own country.
I just reckon its a win win for Animals and people working with the Churches if we did it here.

We would need someone to put their hand up for the job of spear heading it and I thought given your interests it might be up your alley.

Of course we would assist with proposals so long as you wouldnt mind the Bushy Approach.

Really Would like to know what you would think about the idea of setting up this counciling service here in Australia OzGirl.

Hi Benny,

"The Greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Vivisection is the blackest of all the black crimes that man is at present committing against God and His fair creation. If ill becomes us to invoke in our daily prayers the blessings of God, the Compassionate , if we in turn will not practice elementary compassion towards our fellow creatures"

Good Quote.

" A man who is kind benefits himself, but a cruel man hurts himself. " Proverbs

" Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. " Proverbs 14:34

A person who is kind in heart, who has the 'kind' spirit of The Gentle Christ, will be automatically 'kind' towards humans & animals

I visited India (kolkata), where millions of goats (along with human babies) are slaughtered for goddess khali; there were games that involve animal torture during festivals.

http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~cgiacolo/index.htm

Surely, gandhi must have know this.

Nicetry Michael4love

So do you have anything else to offer?

Looking for some STAND UP AND BE COUNTED.

PRACTICLE SOLUTIONS LETS MOVE FORWARD

I will spare you the pain of saying, yes the Churches and most of the leaders seem to have turned a blind eye to God Creatures, yes its True Wendy.

I know that anyway. Now we need to move things along. Now we need to fix mistakes of the past.
Now we need to speak out for Gods creatures

You cant get out of it buy saying Well people are suffering too.

That doesnt cut it.

Let me put it another way to you if I may.

Would you agree the Church has a role to play in the leadership and to set an example to stop cruelty to Animals.?

Would you agree that in the past the Church has played little or no role in education classes and directing their members to contribute towards animal welfare.

Would you agree that in the last three years especially media reports of dreadful cruelty have failed to raise any interest or concern from most Church Leaders but not all?

Would you agree not to get ONE reply from a Church after two thousand letters regarding BARBARIC treatment of Animals in Australia is a BIT slack?

As I asked you in my previous post what type of things could you see the Church being able to do to improve their performance if anything?

Bozo
I am sure you were never the same again after seeing such things.
Its good to have your comments on board. What type Of things do you think all working together as people we can achieve.? Can you see the Church Leaders helping in anyway? towards stopping cruelty to animals. live exports and intensive farming?
If not why not.?
Have you been here very long?
Do you attend a Church of any kind that you feel you might be able to raise these things with the leader. If not Why Not?

Many Thanks .
I am sure this will serve as a insight for Australian Public

Thanks Wendy for the update, much appreciated. Wendy, you don’t have to apologise for having your say about the attitude from church leaders- that’s why this discussion is here. If we all smiled and shrugged our shoulders, defended religious leaders and said that Christians are compassionate to animals while we know that it is hard to get them involved, nothing would ever change.

We are dealing with the hard reality that they haven’t cared about the issue so far, and taking this in the open will at least make things discussable. Things might change for the better. I can only thank you for having said what you did- it needs to be heard no matter how some people dislike hearing it.

Thanks for that quote, Benny- we haven’t even gone into the discussion of vivisection, and it’s one of the most cruel things that animals have to endure. It’s just unthinkable that human morals have sunk that low- another reason for religions to speak out.

OZGIRL, such a great opportunity for you, sounds exciting if it's in your area!

Welcome, Michael,
Right here in Australia is a lot of animal cruelty going on as well. You seem to care about the welfare of animals, and if you think that your church leader has as you say good attitude towards animals. This is great to hear. If you agree with our points about animal cruelty, e.g. live exports, intensive farming, etc, perhaps you can have a talk to your leader about your/our concerns about the cruelty going on- would be good if he could do something positive or even talk about these issues to his members.

1) "Why do you want us to campaign?"
Most of us on here would like the attention of the church because church leaders still have an influence on politics. Personally I’d like it if this wasn’t so- I prefer a secular state; but the fact is that they still do influence politics, so we’d better try to make use out of that for the animals’ sake and that’s why we’d like to see them involved in this issue and perhaps lobby or campaign
We need the cooperation of the government to enable us to make changes in favour of the animals. The church can help as the govt is likely to hear them.

2) "What do you think of me, in the light of my above statements ?" You seem to care about animal welfare, we need more people to speak out against animal curelty.

3) "At the moment, Humans are cruelly killed: Animals are cruelly killed. What should be our priority?"
Personally, I think that it should not have to be a matter of chosing between humans and animals. The church, and the world as a whole, have enough caring capacity and love to give some attention to all of our issues. I don’t think love can run out. Nobody would expect the church to neglect human rights and focus on just animal rights/welfare or vice versa.

Scout, thank you, I have reached mny limit- will talk more later!

Wendy,

Believe me, I am the same.
Humans make animals reproduce.. does that mean we are good?
Humans kill animals for their needs... does that mean we are cruel?
Mind you animals are not your sole-property.
If you are so concerned about animals and animal-cruelty, you should be doing some activities rather than this cheap-talk.
And btw, why are you dragging church & christianity for your issues

Steve Irwin...

I think its time to all take a moment to reflect on the life of one of the planets most dedicated guardian of the earths wildlife in all its forms..

Steve Irwin..now he was a man who lived his passion every day and gave his life for his belief for the betterment of mother nature and gods creatures..great and small.
He died today as you may doubt all know by now and I think the planet is much poorer for losing him, I only hope the wealth of knowledge that he had was imparted at least in some small measure so that the world didnt lose all the valueable experience he had gathered.

I loved him because he gave so much passion and love for the world around him.

Bozo and everybody

Please click here
http://www.themeatrix.com/

Celivia The work with your local butcher is FABOULOUS.

He "was the real deal".

We should all think of something we can do to assist your wonderful work, and Scouts.

I will shout U2 web pages to be built.

Anybody else out there? Would be very welcome. Please give time not money

hello hello , Well I'll be. Is that a church bell I hear a ringing.

Celiva and Scout You could write to AVA and get everyone to sign.

Use the link to the petition and you can find thousands who have already signed the petition to join in your forum.

pass Leo around for childrens education clases for Church groups.

appreciate your posts.

Well most of them anyway. yabadabadoo

somebody could take Philo on a trip with Leo?

Celiva has the right idea with pushing woolworths to buy free range.
We are at the moment looking to running adds educating people about feed lots where woolworths buy mostly from sadly.
To their Credit they have introduced a free range shelf in some stores BUT not Nearly enough.
please take a moment to click on the links.
Its really important that you see what you are posting about.
You too Bozo because even if you dont care about Animal cruelty , I take it you care about jobs for Australian kids.

What church do you belong Bozo? have they ever mentioned cruelty to Gods creatures?

These are the things we need to talk about.

We need to make people of the Church ask themselves why? Or Why Not?
Anyway enjoy Leo.

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/
This link above has some good pictures as well.

We ask ALL church leaders and members to stand up for Australian Animals and Jobs For our Kids future.

BAN LIVE EXPORTS AND INTENSIVE FARMING.

Wendy do you know much about "free range". I generally buy them but heard some time ago that the definition was pretty loose and I've also heard that a lot more "free range" eggs are sold than could possibly be supplied by the commercial free range farms (other eggs being sold as free range).

My local wollies store carries a vast range of egg type. Various organic types, barn, free range, enriched etc and the nothing special except the price eggs.

I often wonder if I maying twice the price for my eggs without actually making a difference to how they are produced.

R0bert

Robert.

Thank You For Your Question about Free Range Eggs And Products.
As far as eggs go the best person to ask is Phil, or Free Ranger.
You are right to be sus.
Some think Free Range are these terrible sheds where they are jammed in so close its criminal.
Of course then like people they end up fighting.
That is why the cruel debeaking method is adopted.

I will list as many REAL free Range brands as I can and post them.
If you could give me a clue without giving up your privacy as to the near you are buying in I will pay particular attention to that.

Free Ranger has a large group of Free anger Farmers as well registered so hopefdully he will see your question.

I hope everybody starts to think like you and it will be a kinder world. I gueess when people are rushing around a supermarket its hard to stop and think hOW the egss got there.

Most people wouldnt beleive that condtions were so bad anyway.

They wrongly think that our Government would not allow such mistreatment.

They would be wrong.

Many Of them actually have large investments in these hell holes beleive it or not.

Isnt that Sad.

Get Back To You Soon with a list

Thank You Robert its the little things like this that make the changes.

.http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=real+free+range+poultry+farms+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

Wendy, I do my shopping at Wollies at Birkdale (formerly Action/formerly Bi-Lo).

Currently in the fridge
12 Fresh Free Range Eggs L 600g - Sunny Queen Farms

The marketing blurb says
- Hens range freely
- Naturally free of hormones & antibiotics
- Naturally high in Protein
- Source of Flate and Iron
- Farms independently audited

R0bert

Oops Wendy, clearly those children don't want to work in meat works
anymore! Teys just had to shut a plant in the North of Qld, they just
can't find enough staff. I hear that some plants in Queensland
are even employing Brazilians, as Aussies don't want the jobs.

Anyhow, on today's farming news:

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2006/s1733392.htm

Perhaps its time for SAVE OUR FARMERS FROM ILL INFORMED
CITY SLICKERS

:)

Thanks Celivia for your warm welcome.

I have mentioned my Leader as "Jesus Christ"; I haven't talked about any Church Leader.

I assume you know about Jesus and His attitude towards Animals * His Creatures.

You prefer a secular state.. so am I coz Jesus said:

" Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's; and to God what is God's "

Jesus also said : " My Kingdom is not of this world."
We, His disciples are travellers/tourists on this earth.

I can help you in your campaign.

1) I extend my full co-operation but I can speak for myself and not for others/church.

2) Again, I am not involved in any form of animal cruelty nor will I.

3) I think human life should be given a priority over animal life, but that's my opinion

Celivia, Spare a minute and have a glimpse of the following images which protray My Leader's attitude towards Animals and tell me what you think of them. Thank you.

http://www.childoflight.org/lamb1B.gif

http://www.shepherdstrust.org/images/jesus-shepherd.jpg

http://biblia.com/jesusart/jesus-shepherd-13.jpg

http://www.alqoshforjesus.com/AlqushforJesus/Images/jesus3shepherd.jpg

Yabby

The Topic Is about Church Leaders . Not Live exports.

This includes Amandas pigs Poultry etc. You are trying to confuse people reading these posts, simply because your PRO live exports and as I found when I spoke to you without ANY concern for Animal welfare.

However JOBS in Queensland.

Do you even know Brad? Have you ever spoken to him or his brother?

I have. Just For The Record They Dont Think HKM is so dumb either.

Heard of price Fixing? Heard of trade dollar. That plant closes down regularly. It will as it does re open again.
The national Party are traitors to the farmers flooding the country with cheap imports.
Without any training! being done in the last ten years we are short of skilled workers and abattoirs and plants are just one of them.
All the more! reason to support the HKM co-joint venture to ensure staff ARE trained and empoyment continues. The best way to do that is by value adding.

Data shows that direct and indirect economic linkage of meat processing embrace a wide range of sectors including transport, wholesale trade, energy, packaging and paper, other feedlot products, plastic products, mechanical and other repairs, banking and financial services, communication, business services, public administration, health and other services.

The capacity of a meat processing plant such as XXXX XXXX to directly employ hundreds of people and subsequently to generate a complex, wide reaching economic web that

a, creates more jobs, services and local infrastructure in the surroundng community

b, is of enormous importance to regional Australia where unemployment and loss of services are all too familiar causes for community concern.

A recent report estimates the total cost of the live export trade to Australia could be around $1.7 billion in lost GDP, around $280 in household income and around 12,000 jobs. Perhaps Russel Carr, the Queensland AMIEU director describes most succinctly the economic absurdity of exporting Australian animals alive.
"By exporting live cattle we are exporting our resources in their least valuable form"

This Government has failed to train anybody especially in abattoirs.

RObert, for your interest, just letting you know that Freeranger was also discussing this on the Animal Welfare link: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Wendy, it would be fantastic if you could list those brands! I have just asked freeranger a question about that on the above (Scout's) link.

Wendy, hope you don't mind but would you like to post this brand list in Scout's animal welfare discussion please- just a bit handier because people were/are already discussing this topic there (e.g. Freeranger who works on a definition of 'free-range').
I happened to just have asked freeranger about a certain brand, so it would connect perfectly to have this list there :)rather than the exact topic overlapping in two different discussions.
Thanks :)

Wendy, you mentioned live exports, so I did.

Meat plants train their own staff in WA. Its not rocket
science. Fact is, people want more cushy jobs these days,
thats the reality. Even in Queensland it seems now,
as the head of a major plant has publicly announced.

The Hassal and Ass report on the live trade that
I had posted a link to, shows a 1.8 billion$ gain,
plus 13'000 jobs, from the live trade, due to the
higher values. Alone in WA, farmers would lose 100 million$
a year, if the trade ended. Your misinformation would be
taking money from the table of their families, if live exports
were banned in WA.

I'll telll you what. You do your little experiments over there
in Queensland and when you get some real results on the table
for all to see, we'll take notice.

Meantime leave WA out of your crazy calls, along with Peta
and the rest. Its pure nonsense.

Michael4Love
Good thing, that you regard Jesus Christ as your leader rather than a leader from a church. I believe that your Leader is a more loving leader than most of the leaders of organised religions or churches. Even though I am not religious, I can see why Christians love Jesus.

Thank you for those beautiful, heart-warming pictures of the cute lambs. You seem to know a lot about the words of Jesus Christ. A shame that church leaders are not listening to him more.

Can I ask you a question that might be a bit hard to anwer, so if you can’t answer it, I understand.
Do you think (hypothetically) that with all your belief and faith in Jesus Christ which you obviously have, if you were to be the leader of a church, that you would give attention to animal welfare/cruelty issues or would you be like the church leaders we know and ignore it?

You say that you value human life over animal life, and I do too in almost all cases.
There are certain circumstances in where I’d value animal life more than a person’s life though.
If I *had* to choose (hypotetically) between say my cat and my son, of course I’d chose my son over my cat.
But that is not to say that I wouldn’t do anything in my power to try to protect my cat from cruelty. Churches shuld do the same, they can value human life and still protect animal life.
But...
In the case in where I would have to choose between say, a ruthless, barbaric animal torturer or child molester/murderer and my cat, then I’d save my cat.

I’d still chose a quick death for that person, not a cruel death. I'm not into cruelty at all.
So I’d say it’s pretty relative where my values lay.

Yabby, Wendy is right- it gets a bit confusing to jump from one thread to another with the exact same topic. People who only read one thread are missing information on another thread which can lead to misunderstandings.

Celivia
Thanks for your kind words. I believe most of the church leaders regard Jesus Christ as their leader.

You said: " Even though I am not religious, I can see why Christians love Jesus. " Can you explain further?

Well, I have given those links to illustrate the Love of Christ towards Animals and Humans (Social Animals). Please see Jesus along with those cute lambs and we (both you and me) are the lost sheep. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who feeds us spiritually.

You have asked: Do you think (hypothetically) that with all your belief and faith in Jesus Christ which you obviously have, if you were to be the leader of a church, that you would give attention to animal welfare/cruelty issues or would you be like the church leaders we know and ignore it?

If I were to be a leader of church, I have to do my job as described by my authorities (in that church).

In this sentence, (In the case in where I would have to choose between say, a ruthless, barbaric animal torturer or child molester/murderer and my cat, then I’d save my cat.) if you mean the child-molesting priests, then I would like to say something : The following are the words of Jesus wrt Adultery. I believe child-molesting, rapes, sexual harrasment fall under the same category.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (and viceversa)." Matthew 5:27, 28

If the Judgement of Jesus Christ is like this, how can you think that priests who are child-molesters acceptable in His Sight? { Am I right in saying that you point to child-molesting priests & Bush/Howard

Michael4love

lovely humbling

" And he lay down his life to protect his flock"

Nobody is suggesting we put animals 'before people." just alongside
There is a clear connection between animal cruelty and abuse to people.
I dont think I would follow the Church Leader.
I would follow the lords wishes. Please compare these pictures and tell me what you think Jesus would say?http://www.halakindmeats.com/elders.html
The pictures are stunning and I hope one day they might be used for the first real bible studies in churches.
Thank You for Your Support. You ARE a Christian
Celivia this is your progect and I am just supporting you and no different to any other poster. Your doing a great job.

Yabby

2-Minute Management Course
Lesson One:
An eagle was sitting on a tree resting, doing nothing. A small rabbit saw
the eagl e and asked him, "Can I also sit like you and do nothing?" The
eagle answered: "Sure, why not." So, the rabbit sat on the ground below
the eagle and rested. All of a sudden, a fox appeared, jumped on the
rabbit and ate it .

Management Lesson - To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting
very, very high up.

Lesson Two:
A turkey was chattin g with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to the
top of that tree," sighed the turkey, "but I haven't got the energy."
"Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull.
"They're packed with nutrients." The turkey pecked at a lump of dung, and
found it actually gave him enough strength to reach the lowest branch of
the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second
branch. Finally after a fourth night, the turkey was proudly perched at
the top of the tree. He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out
of the tree.

Management Lesson - Bull SH might get you to the top, but it won't keep
you there.

Celivia, I understand your point. The thing is however, that some
people are acting much like religious zealots when it comes to
the live trade. All passion and little reason, add alot of distorted
information and it becomes a story that feeds on itself, without
much reality behind it.

So its time to point out the realities occasionaly. Zealots will
stay zealots, but there are also people on here who can reason,
who are intelligent and who can think about the arguments with
a more balanced perspective.

In fact the whole debate is far more complex. For instance in alot
of WA station country, they used to run merinos. When weather
conditions were right, tens of thousands of those sheep would die
cruel, miserable deaths, over many days, from blowfly strike.
You have to see that to believe it, if you want to see suffering.
But of course thats not on tv, so is never mentioned.

That same country is now being converted to damaras, which don't
suffer like that. They are sold to the live trade, the local trade
does not want them. But the net outcome is far less suffering
for animals. The thing is, to achieve less suffering it takes
accurate information, rational thinking and looking at the big
picture. Emotional zealotry and ad hominem attacks will solve
nothing but make people feel better, they won't reduce suffering
of animals.

Wendy Lewthwaite, Thanks for your comments.

* And he lay down his life to protect his flock * . This verse is awesome. Jesus laid down his life to protect you, me and all humans. What a Love!

* There is a clear connection between animal cruelty and abuse to people. *

Absolutely True! As I said, those who are kind at heart will automatically be kind/graceful in words/deeds.

For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Luke 6:45.
Faith apart from works is dead. James 2:26

* Please compare these pictures and tell me what you think Jesus would say?http://www.halakindmeats.com/elders.html
The pictures are stunning and I hope one day they might be used for the first real bible studies in churches. *

Well, I think Jesus, being the Creator will definitely be saddened looking at those scenes: those animals, being His Creation. I do hope the same.

Finally, thanks for your compliments on my faith. All the Best.

Wendy, thanks so much for those pictures on here!

Not enough time to reply to all, might come back later, for now, just to
Michael. Thank you Michael!
A few replies- sorry I'll have to be concise:

Yes, I do understand why you gave those links of Jesus and the lambs. This is the way that Jesus would like lambs to be treated. In contrast, there are more realistic pictures (for example the ones Wendy gave us to look at). There is a big contrast. Jesus carries and treats the lambs with love and care- the lambs in today’s reality are being shipped all over the world and tortured. A good suggestion for the church to use both images and compare and ask: WWJD?

If you are saying that most of the church leaders regard Jesus as their leader, then why don’t they look at these lovely pictures of Jesus and the lambs, compare them with pictures of sheep exports and animal torture in general and say: What Would Jesus Do? I so don’t understand that when leaders say that Jesus is their leader, they ignore what Jesus did and don't do a thing.

”If I were to be a leader of church, I have to do my job as described by my authorities (in that church). “Who would be your highest authority- would that not be Jesus (or God)?

“Am I right in saying that you point to child-molesting priests & Bush/Howard “
No, I didn’t even have pedophile priests in mind when I wrote about the people-animal priority thing. Honestly, I don’t care what someone’s job is- whether s/he is a priest, teacher, plumber, doctor, president, PM, doesn’t matter. A priest who rapes a kid is not any better than any other worker who rapes a kid. I was not pointing to anything but spoke in general. A rapist or animal torturer is just that regardless of his occupation.

Celivia, why are you picking on Christians? Most of us don't go around proclaiming our Christianity, so I think you'd be surprised what the beliefs are of many people who worry about animal cruelty. I would have also thought that on the balance of probabilities, given the size of the world's population and the percentage of it that is genuinely Christian, there'd be absolutely and relatively more people who are cruel to animals, or who don't care about it, than there are Christians who fit the same category.

In fact, I'd say that on the basis of my training and upbringing that someone who was wantonly cruel to animals could not genuinely subscribe to Christianity. So many of the parables are based around caring animal husbandry, there is the image of the good shepherd, and the pascal lamb, Christ's birth is pictured in a stable, the first witnesses of it are shepherds in the fields, we have a genesis understanding of having stewardship over the earth. When you say grace over a meal you have a sense of the importance of all life and the miracle which brings it to your table to feed you.

And a quick Google search would have shown you that various churches have spoken out on animal welfare. He's a link to one statement of the Anglican position http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/socialpublic/smte.html#animalwelfare. Here's one that says it states the Roman Catholic position http://www.secondspring.co.uk/course/termtwo.htm (Go to "Structures of Sin"). There's no monolithic Christian view on anything, but I'd be surprised to find any significant domination saying it's OK to be cruel to animals.

GrahamY, welcome,good to have you discuss this issue- the more Christians the better! The discussion is about the lack of interest from Christian leaders to address the issue of animal abuse.
Nobody is saying that Christians generally do abuse animals. Christians and non-christians are probably not all that different in their behaviour towards animals. Agreed on that one.

Why would I attack the Christian church?
Have you read all the above posts? Read all the posts first and you’ll know why!
Are you aware that the church doesn’t care to include animal welfare on their agenda?
Perhaps that’s because your church leader (if you go to church) omits talking about that ;) Christians who go to church and know about animal abuse should pressure their leaders to place animal welfare on the agenda.
The 2 UK links you provide are not evidence that churches in Australia include animal welfare on their agenda. Did you read what Wendy said about ALL her letters (thousands) to churches?

You are right to say that there are many parables around caring animal husbandry- but look at what reality shows us! Animal torture, live-exports and the church never speaks out against that.
I’m not saying that churches are stating that animal cruelty is OK; but they do not protest!

Shame on our church leaders that they completely ignore the issue while you and Michael4Love have made it clear that Jesus at least, did show love and care for animals. Why ignore Jesus words and actions?

“...someone who was only cruel to animals could not genuinely subscribe to Christianity.”
Oh please!
This is a catch 2 kind of argument! To give you an example:
Christians do not abuse kids.
All Priests are Christians.
Priests who abuse kids are Christians.
But hey! Stop! They couldn’t really be genuine Christians if they did this, could they?
Real Christians wouldn’t abuse kids!
This priest could not have been a real Christian.
Therefore, Christians do not abuse kids.
Christians do not abuse kids. YAY! Phew.
This reasoning does not make sense- well, at least not to me.

GrahamY
Welcome to the forum. Do you know that song telephone! to Glory?

I am trying to get some TV adds for before the elections running with footage from 60 minutes of live Exports.
We are addressing it to Steve Fielding and Howard, Beazley.
Can you Help.

The fact that your googles search shows a few! good men tells a sad story.
We do work with a few churches yes.
Thank god.

Think about how many Churches there are and how many speak out against animal cruelty or include it in their bible study for children.?
You would be aware that 60 minutes did five seperate segmants on just live exports surley. Heard any bells ringing? Church or otherwise? I didnt.
Here many members of churches fronting up to the church leaders I Didnt.

Did you see the footage of pigs kept in cages where they cant even turn SCREAMING! Hanging onto a biting the bars being
driven MAD.

See the footage of the EYES of Gods creatures being torn out while alive by people in other countries ? God has given us a gift.

He has delivered unto us the first political Christian party into politics.
We intend to SHAME Steve Fielding into standing up for gods creatures.
There will be NO stone unturned. No safe passage in a book to hide.
If Steve Fielding does not think that a political matter that has reached extreme heights is not enough to act WE will act for him.

There wont be a place left for the churches to hide I can Promise. We will stand outside every Church In this country!

Fancy Church Leaders being SO scared of loosing a few Government Grants they WONT stand up for gods Creatures.

We are not going on about nothing. What is happening behind closed doors of intensive farming and life exports iS A SIN IN THE EYES OF GOD and any decent person.

Please speak to your Church Leader
with a view to form animal education classes I will supply all information internet and footage free.
So whats your! excuse Now?

It is really important People understand Celivia did not put this forum together to protest eating meat.
Her work like Scout Is to draw to the attention of all church Groups Christians and just people in general that we need to fix the mass cruelty that these animals are suffering under.

We need to insist feed lots are changed to creek lots.
We need as much support for the farmers who do the right thing and throw the book at the others.
We need The churches and the Australian Public To Realise that the farmers are being pushed out of farming by the corps intensive lot who are only i it for the trade dollar benefit and the shiiping agents.
We need to know that the meat industry is very corupt,
We need to look at ways of getting the farmers more money than the live exports offers.
We need to encourage our farmers to do business direct with overseas purchaers of meat.

There are MANY overseas people interested.

We need to tell the Government that this needs their full support.

To understand why the Government and those who live off this vile Trade are against such a move is clear.[political donations]

look At Amanda vanstones piggery . Thats just one. Remember our laws are so slack these barbaric places are! legal.

Lets talk about the RSPCA and who they really work for soon.
Whos behind the Vaile at top office?
Lets take a close look at A Blind Eye
Dont Forget Leo
http://www.livexports.com/

Wendy Lewthwaite,

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-322673,00.html

Killing for 'Mother' Kali
It was at most a fringe practice, but a spate of ritual killings in India shows that human sacrifice lives

Then chanting mantras to the "mother" goddess Kali, he sawed off Manju's hands, breasts and left foot, placing the body parts in front of a photograph of a blood-soaked Kali idol. Police say the arcs of blood on the walls suggest Manju bled to death in minutes.

Human sacrifice has always been an anomaly in India. Even 200 years ago, when a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Calcutta, blood cults were at odds with a benign Hindu spiritualism that celebrates abstinence and vegetarianism. But Kali is different. A ferocious slayer of evil in Hindu mythology, the goddess is said to have an insatiable appetite for blood. With the law on killing people more strictly enforced today, ersatz substitutes now stand in for humans when sacrifice is required. Most Kali temples have settled on large pumpkins to represent a human body; other followers slit the throats of two-meter-tall human effigies made of flour, or of animals such as goats.

I've seen some offerings of goats, that's gruesome. I can't stop those rituals. And If I ask like Celivia, where in the hell are hindus?..

Should have known it was a waste of time putting my hand up. Celivia, if priests abuse children they are not acting in a Christian way. You're the one with the logical problem. No Christian would accept child abuse as acceptable behaviour.

And I don't know why you would expect all the Churches to be on the frontlines with you on your crusade. Churches generally don't get involved in social crusades like that, but Christians do. It's the church's primary role to teach and convert individuals, and it is the individuals' role to act in accordance with that teaching.

So I'm sure you will find plenty of Chrisitians involved in your campaigns and the church will have done its job.

If you want to blame organisations for not getting involved in the animal welfare issues, why don't you pick on those organisations whose role it is to get involved in issues - political parties?

GrahamY

This thread started as an observation of the lack of religious participation in the animal welfare threads. Very few offer opinions on these threads. celivia and I were asking why.

Christianity is the largest religion in Australia, ergot the largest group of religious posters on OLO are Christian. We weren't deliberately singling out Christians. It is simply a matter of percentage, given the number of Christian posters on OLO - why so few on threads concerning animals?

We have been asking for assistance from religious posters. Thus far we have received images of fluffy lambs, bible quotes, explanations as to why animal welfare is not a church responsibility but is an individual Christian's respsonsibility (if I understand your post correctly) and finally that if Christians aren't concerned about animal welfare then they aren't true Christians. Which is the usual excuse given when Christians behave unfairly towards others. This excuse encompasses a huge group of people. For example George Pell only considers Christians as being of importance and tends to disparage people who hold other beliefs. He is not a Christian?

Kind of getting into 'when is a Christian not a Christian'? When other Christians disapprove? Or when non-Christians point out that ignoring and not taking action about animal suffering is uncharitable (charity being one of those virtues that Christians claim exclusively as their own).

Many Christians have demanded that Muslim leaders speak out against terrorism, well all we are doing is asking that Christian Leaders speak out against animal cruelty. Same glove, different hand.

Scout, I characterised the act, rather than the person. There is nothing authentically Christian about abusing animals, even if some Christians do it.

And the analogy of calling on Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism fails, because in Islam there is little distinction between Church and State, whereas in Christianity there is. It might be the same glove, but it is a totally different hand.

Most of us who are Christian don't run around telling people that we are. Maybe we should, but we don't. You'd have no idea how many Christians were concerned about animal welfare, and involved in the debates as a result.

With all due respects to some of the Christian posters on this site, they aren't necessarily typical of how Christians are, and using them as a proxy for the wider mass of us is not a good way of understanding us.

Graham Y..thank you for posting on here and providing some balance and commonsense..the thread was started with a very unfortunate title of "Christians where the bloody hell are you?' and I felt, even though not a christian as such that that only alienated christians from this whole thread and what was the point of that?

I tried to say that the 'christians' out there represented by the media were not representative of christians,true christians in general...But hey, christians arent the only ones pigeonholed and who get a bad rap...poor old single mums..doing one of the toughest jobs I know,and Ive done a few, are persecuted by the media and then to rub salt into an already gaping wound are alienated by society because they 'buy' into the hype.

To Celivias credit she did change the thread and Ive noticed things have progressed far better after that.
I absolutely support their stance 100% in all they are trying to do,but we must be fair and I also ,along with the others are very interested in your posts.

Cheers.

Graham
The only question here is should churches take some leadership and responsibilty for Animal Welfare. The Answer Is Obvious.

We are speaking about The Silence From church Leaders regaring the very public docs on live exports and intensive farming.
I am SURE most christains who either go to church Or dont go to Church are as equally horrid as I am.

What do you think of the fact that Church leaders still! wont speak out.
I am all ears.
By the ways thanks for your comments. Ozgirl I agree with you.
I am not picking on good people. I will however expose the Church leaders.
Leaders
I said Leaders
SHAME

Graham

I am with Wendy on this one - the silence is deafening. Christians are very vocal on many issues from workchoices through to abortion. I have not heard anything concerted regarding humane farming practices.

BTW - it is not the quiet Christian I am concerned about. Plenty 'out' themselves on OLO and fail to assist on animal welfare; I have asked for help many times and my calls are falling on deaf ears.

As for my analogy - it was deliberately extreme in order to draw a response. Interesting, that you should point out 'church and state' - I don't pretend to fully understand Islam, however I do know that religion governs much of our politics today; Howard's appointment of Pell, Abbott's attempted manipulation of medical treatment for women. Therefore, it is not too much to ask that Christians stand by their claims that they are 'stewards' of this world and take action.

PS

I do know that many Christians work in animal welfare as I have worked alongside them, in fact this is why I am so absolutely stunned at the lack of response from Christians on the animal welfare threads on OLO - is this a reflection of the demographic of OLO - does this website only attract the, er... more um... bible bashing element?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Scout, they probably don't get involved in the issue for the same reason that I don't - there are so many other things that I am involved in and you can't be in everything. That doesn't mean that the issue doesn't get attention.

Re: church and state - appointing a Christian minister to a government appointment does not breach any rule of separating church and state. You don't stop being a citizen because you're a minister of religion. And as for Abbott's views on abortion, they may be informed by religion, but as he himself points out, he argues on the basis of logic and common ethics and morality. That he comes to a different opinion from others is no more outrageous than that a high profile atheist, like say Philip Adams, comes to a different opinion from him.

We all come with a set of values and beliefs - why stigmatise one particular set?

So, "Christians where the bloody hell are you?" was the title of this thread.

I can now visualize the fate of the people who say "Hindus where the bloody hell are you?" infront of "mother" goddess Kali's devotees.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-322673,00.html

Obozo

Thanks for exposing thecruel animals slaughtered in other countries.

Sadly We cant change the world overnight. However we can and must make sure Australian Animals are not sent to suffer such deaths overseas.[by not sending them unless in a box]

Perhaps I should post pictures taken by oil rigger workers.

Animals tossed overboard that are ill slowly torn apart by sharks.

Worse being put down mincers on the ships alive.!

Anybody who calls themselves a christian Graham then says they are busy with other things after seeing such cruelty to Australia Animals are fooling themselves.
I intend to do just as you suggested. Family First is the first christian based political party.
Thats who we are asking to make a stand.

Oh and of course ALL Church Leaders not to mention decent human beings of any belief.

Thanks for pointing out its political.

I am concerned about the Christain schools black listing their children from being involved in Animal Welfare.

We had seventy Kids on a school project.
They ALL wanted Animal Welfare. Isnt that wonderful.!

Pretty cluey too these kids. Amoung themselves they got a woolbag and filled! it with letters to 60 minutes asking John Howard to stop live exports.

They worked so hard!.

One day the priniciple informed the kids they were not allowed to express their views on live exports because it was political.

Thats is a clear example of the Church Leaders behavoir. I still have the kids letters in the wool bag.

Church schools are not only not doing their job but stopping kids freedom of speech when they try to be christian and caring.

The School has a long history of National Party. JOE went there.

I certainly would not want my Child told not to speak out about animal cruelty.

Would You Graham?

GrahamY,

I knew I should’ve gone after the Buddhists, except they don’t really constitute a significant percentage of the Australian population, or even the OLO demographic for that matter. Thought I’d made myself clear on previous posts. I don’t want to pick on any particular group. However, when one group is clearly in power over others (as in our current fed gov), has the greater demographic representation and, therefore, the greater influence, then their absence on an important issue is notable.

As for Abbot claiming ‘logic’ for his policies as opposed to being influenced by his religion. Logic would dictate that an adult woman is within her rights to determine her fertility and take advantage of medical treatments that are both safe and appropriate. Therefore, I am compelled to disbelieve Abbot and his claims of impartiality as he actively attempted to deny a medical procedure that had been approved for use in Australia.

‘Citizen’ Pell? Could 'good' Christian Howard have found anyone more opinionated or controversial? I think not. The position of GG needs to be one of the highest degree of impartiality. Pell has strongly held views on many controversial issues – he is incapable of objectivity and was perceived by the public as a partisan appointment. And, ultimately, was forced to step down amid much disturbing controversy.

I would have equal objections if our parliament was as influenced by Islam or Mayan sun-worshippers as it is currently influenced by very conservative, illiberal Christians.

As for the topic as being less important than other issues (I think that is what you meant by being “more occupied by other interests”), may I point out that farming, the environment, animal welfare, healthy eating and sustainable practices are interconnected – part of our universal responsibility on this planet. If you care about one, then, logic dictates, you care about all.

Animal welfare is not a side issue it is a part of our human responsibility to the world we, as human beings, currently dominate.

Obozo,
thank you for sharing that gruesome experience and article.

Scout,
yu always make a lot of sense and again you have said it so well- I have the same realistic view about Abbot and his ‘impartiality’.

Wendy,
Any parent and teacher can be very proud of the way these kids concern themselves with animal welfare issues! Hard to believe as they are setting such good example.
WHO SAYS (apart from that principal )kids can’t get involved- is there a law against it? It sounds so unbelievable in this day and age that children would be blacklisted for caring about something that happens to invole politics. If it were my child I’d be proud that my kid got blacklisted because of that, I’d try Today Tonight show with some other parents who cared.

GrahamY
Most of your questions have been answered by others, but please don’t feel that you are wasting time- you are making some good points, whether we agree or not. Your opinion is valued.
One valid point you are making and I’d like to discuss is “It's the church's primary role to teach and convert individuals...”

Perhaps it would make an interesting discussion if we can talk a little about the role and responsibilities of the church and church leaders. I’ll have to be honest and admit that I do not know much about that, but I thought one would expect church leaders to “To serve Christ in All Creations” and therefore, as Christians, seriously talk of concerns about the expoitation/cruelty of animals.
Scouts points out very well and I have said this in a previous post, that animal isues are connected with other areas as well.

I don’t feel that the criticism we have about the church is damaging the church- I see it as a little leg-up for the church to help them realise that it’s about time to broaden their role in animal advocacy.
In a way we help the church realise that their voice on animal cruelty and inhumane commercial exploitation of animals is needed and wanted, will be heard and be meaningful.

Scout: You might want to review your comments about Pell on the basis that it was Hollingworth who was appointed GG. I also think you're not being particularly logical on the abortion argument, but I don't want to divert the thread. However, if it is OK to determine there is a point at which the fetus cannot be aborted, and I think most pro-choice advocates do, then surely it is a legitimate logical pursuit to argue about where that point should be, which is what Abbott is doing.

Celivia, the point I'm making is that the Christian Church is not primarily a lobby group, and in fact doesn't have any view, let alone a unified view, on a whole range of issues. Nor should it. This may be more a Protestant view than a Roman or Orthodox one, but it is up to the individual, in the light of their understanding of God's will revealed through the bible, through reason and through reflection, to decide what is moral for themselves. It's not up to the Church to come to some conclusion on their behalf.

Like many regular church-goers I'm frequently alienated and mortified when churchmen speak out on public policy areas, presuming in a sense to speak for Christians, when frequently they know little about the subject area. When you look at the teachings of Christ, they are full of this sort of ambiguity. When the woman caught in adultery (he saved her from stoning) asks him what to do, presumably expecting a long list, he simply says "Go and sin no more." i.e. "You have it within yourself to work it out."

Graham

At last I get it.
You are saying the church has no place for leadership.
No direct role for anything really much in this day and age.
Its just someplace to go to make christain people feel better.
May I ask a question in that case. Why do the Churches get involved! in child abuse and starving people?

You say they dont speak out on a political level, Ok Then.

Why Should Steve Fielding and Family First be playing politics?

Isnt it true that Family First represent ALL The Christrians organisations in Australia.?

Yes it is!. He personally informed us of that at our meeting with him.
So on the one hand you say Church has no place speaking about political topics.

Yet The Church are up to their necks in Politics.

You cant have it both ways.

That would be being a hypocrite

Which is what I am accusing the Churches of being.

The Church as spiritual leaders if not just plain decent people have a duty to protect Gods creatures
.
Thank You for posting here because you are really one of the better people who at least have the nagging feeling you should say something.
I admire your loyalty and faith in the lord. I share the same faith. Just make sure however your loyalty is not used and you are not misguided.
Gods wants you to do what is right. Not what a man or leader of a church is doing if its not right. Why dont you write to your political church Leader Steve Fielding and point that out.
You know something ; The Churches joining politics is the best thing that ever happend for animal welfare. I thank God for That.

The old saying God Works in mysterious ways certainly applys.

Please pray for guidence to our lord on this issue.

Look at some of the footage and ask our lord. Should I turn my back on the animals who are being misttreated while the church Leaders say nothing Lord.?

Listen for he will surely answer you .

Go in peace.
G Y

Wendy, I think that you may have misunderstood Graham. I didn't read any sign of support in his message for the kind of church run political involvement you are raising in his post.

I suspect that he see's the prime role of the church is to join together to worship their god and to provide teaching about their faith. From there it would be up to each individual believer to live out that faith based on their understanding of it. For some that will mean involvement in differing causes (Graham and his work here) and for others it will mean differeing things. Safer for the rest of us than those who try to use the church to push their own agenda's.

Likewise "Isnt it true that Family First represent ALL The Christrians organisations in Australia.?" - my understanding is that they may wish to be seen that way but that they are primarily an offshoot of the AOG church.

Cheers
R0bert

GrahamY

My mistake, I did mix up Pell and Hollingworth. Although the essence of my argumant remains the same.

I am astounded at your take on the manner in which Abbot tried to deny women a safe treatment for abortion - there is nothing illogical in women wanting to control their fertility. Abbot claimed that the treatment was unsafe - it was not an argument about when it is appropriate to abort as you have tried to claim. Besides, general agreement among medics is up to 12 weeks; ideally. Abbot was using his position of office for his personal desires.

I suspect, I now know where you stand regarding abortion. Interesting.

The church has a lot to say about human foeti and very little about the environment surrounding and supporting them. Again I point out that the world is interconnected - everything we do has consequences.

There is much in the bible about stewardship over the earth - Michael4 has detailed much of this in his posts.

You state that the church has no interest in becoming a lobby group - in the face of its involvement over contraception? Are you being ironic?

The welfare of our environment is not about lobby groups - it is beyond the political; it is where you and I live. Surely 'domininion over the earth' carries responsibility along with it. Otherwise, dominion is just exploitation - to our very great loss.

Apart from my glaring error over identity - the reasoning behind my post remains sound. I think you are now simply trying to avoid the issue. Which remains, why do church leaders turn their backs on Animal Cruelty? Thus far, we have had some weak excuses such as 'lack of interest' and evasive tactics. Very poor indeed.

Therefore, I will conclude by asking you to consider your next purchase of animal product - was it free range, was it humanely slaughtered? I am not asking you to agree with me, all I am asking is that you care about the wider world.

After all: "You have it within yourself to work it out."

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=church+leaders+against+abortion+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=church+leaders+politics&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=church+enters+politics+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=politics+and+steve+fielding+church+christians+&spell=1

Gee Robert I dont know the last time I looked The Churches were pretty political to me.The few above came up in two seconds There are thousands more.

The churches get funding off the Government. The school teachers are told not to get involved on the very public debate about live exports.
The kids are not allowed to talk about it or write about it.

It Says To Teach. To Preach in the bible and even Graham said that.

They preach about abortion but not animal abuse.?

Are you not ashamed that not one of your lot care.

Sit there reading your bibles if you like.

However the lord knows who is truely doing his work and who is not. Churches HAVE entered politics but even if they had not.> WHAT TYPE
of people make up excuses! while animals are so mistreated.

TEACH AND PREACH ABOUT THIS CRUELTY NOT JUST ABORTION.

Look at yourselves in the mirror.

SHAM and I do mean Sham! and Shame too!

Ok just to really upset everyone I'll add my 5c worth here:)

The problem here is a philosophical one, the point which
I think Graham raised in one of his posts.

In a secular democracy, the role of the churches should
be to preach to their flocks. Those citizens are then
free to express their opinions in a polical sense.

If you want churches to get politically involved in the
animal welfare debate, you should have no problem with
them getting politically involved in the abortion debate
and telling you what to do with your uterus.

Anything else is philosophically inconsistant and smacks
of opportunism.

Well Yabby

You are right - the church has already involved itself with 'my uterus' as you put it. Therefore, Christians trying to slink out under the 'we're not a political lobby' is very cowardly indeed.

Ideally we would have a separation of church and state and then the church could just preach to its flock - but we don't have that vital separation now do we?

Or, Yabby, are you going to recant all your posts regarding the catholic church on the abortion related threads?

I guess, because you disagree with the phasing out of live export - you thought you'd drop over and be disagreeable here as well. Muddying the waters yet again.

Scout, what should I recant anything? My point is, that I am
philosophically above the church or now even above you, for
my opinions and beliefs are consistant, wheras you are
showing your opportunistic side. Should you ever complain again
about the churches politically wanting to tell you what to do
about your uterus, I will point out this philosophical
inconsistancy to you....

Yabby

What?

I think we are failing to communicate.

You've lost me.

I have always been true to my beliefs - I have no idea what you are getting at here.

Email me will you?

Really beginning to think you are just trying to take the p*ss.

Wendy, please re-read my post.

I was trying to give my take on the position that a lot of moderate christains take. I'm no longer a christain and can't answer for there actions.

I think I did so politely so I don't feel the need to look in the mirror and feel shame.

Yes a lot of churches do get political but at the same time a lot of christans don't like that and often disagree with the stances taken by those who claim to speak on their behalf. As Graham correctly points out they are often working completely outside their areas of expertise and really don't know what they are talking about.

For example a male celbate catholic priest attempting to control womens reproductive rights.

I'd prefer that the churches butt out of politics and leave it to individual believers to work as they think appropriate. Instead we'll see Family (Christian) First getting a lot of votes from people with little understanding of their policies just because they are christain.

Now please reread my earlier post again, there is no attack in there (or if sounds like is it's not intended).

R0bert

Scout, all abortion debate comes back to whether you are dealing with a third life or not, and what the consequences are from that. The Church's positions on that are based on the sixth commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". Most people, Christian or not, honour that commandment. You'll find there is no monolithic position. Although being strongly anti-abortion tends to be a Catholic position in Australia, it is also a fundamentalist Protestan position in the US. And because the sixth comanndment is a secular rule as well as a religious one, I don't think Abbott has too many issues imported solely by virtue of him being a Christian.

And if some churches operate as a lobby group on abortion, that's their problem. Frame the question "Why does the Roman Catholic Church appear to care about abortion but not about animal rights." We're not all Roman you know.

Your faux pas on Hollingworth invalidates your whole argument. Pell and Hollingworth are very differen clerics with very different approaches. If the people who criticise the Christian church understood the church better they wouldn't make howlers like this. One archbishop can't be substituted for another willy-nilly.

I care about animals. I don't man barricades about it, but you won't find an animal with a bad word to say about me. I man barricades about other things. I don't condemn you because you don't man my barricades, neither should you condemn me because I'm not on yours.

Graham H...this is now turning into a real debate...im enjoying this..

That should be Graham Y.....

And to all who are posting in relation to this..I think your all great.

It is interesting that we are all meat eaters..is there a problem with this does anyone believe?

If we all on this thread boycotted meat and all related products...could that perhaps say something about our committment to the sheep export problem?

Im serious..it should start somewhere I feel...

GrahamY

You are all Roman.

Roaming around doing nothing!.

I am calling the Church leaders a bunch of hyprocrites.

Not All ,

If you cant tell the difference between corruption lerks ,perks and pews than sombody needs to point it out to you.

You did not answer, regarding Christain school head masters banning kids doing Animal Welfare Live Exports studies.


Would you want your child to be banned from expressing their thoughts towards animal cruelty. ?

Teaching the Koran in Christian schools is easier than live exports.

Do you agree with Christian Schools[in particular private Schools] being banned from teaching kids about cruelty to farm animals?

Considering 60 minutes have done many stories on the cruel live export trade the Silence from the church Leaders has been deafening?

Do you agree our lord was kind to animals and would expect us to carry that through our lives as an example.?

Do you agree that animals that are alive and suffering NOW should take first place.

You are trying to goad Celivia off post and ozgirl going on about abortion because you cant come up with a reasonable excuse for the terrible neglect from the Church to Gods creatures.

Do you agree that its EVERYBODYS reasonsibilty Muslim, Christian or otherwise to speak out about the clear barbaric cruelty that has dominated the news for three years in this country.?

Every man and his dog have become involved in the debate and live animal exports.

The ONLY group who has not said a word is the Church Leaders of this country.
Even the Muslim leaders have spoken out and put Press Realses
denouncing live exports.

So where Are?The Church Leaders.

Or have the Cats Got Their Tongues..

Do try to answer without quoting the bible.

The lord does not like his name being used! in vain.

Robert Ok I will read it again. [sorry mate]
i am very dissapointed with you but not surprised after years of writing to Church Leaders encouraging them to stop worrying about Government grants and do as the lord has asked of them as his leaders.
SHAME

Wendy- thanks for keeping us on track! ;)

Yabby I can see your point- I have to admit that I am also trying to take the opportunity to ‘use’ the involvement of the church, while I much rather see a secular state.
If the church ‘has to’ be involved, it might as well be involved in issues that are not acceptable in most people's eyes, like asking them to speak out against animal cruelty.
I’m not asking them for any extreme stands, just to remember that they should include animals when they preach.
I don't think one needs to have special knowledge or be an expert about animal cruelty, anyone with half a brain can figure out what's cruel and what's not. Leaders can read from the bible and point out that this cruelty today is a barbaric way of treating God’s creatures.

GY If the bible actually discusses animal welfare, why then is it wrong for leaders to read this from the bible and discuss it?

For example:
God says to us in Proverbs 27:23: "Be sure you know the condition of your flocks, give careful attention to your herds."
Do we know the condition of our flocks? Is it not one of the church’s duties to make people aware of the condition of our flocks and tell others to give careful attention to their herds? The church leader’s duty is teaching!

For example:
“God expects the Christian, above all others, to be sensitive to all of His creation, knowing that exploiting or abusing it shows a disrespect for God Himself.”
Is it sensitive of the Church to ignore Animal Welfare when there’s so much cruelty going on when God expects Christians ABOVE ALL OTHERS to be sensitive to His creations?

Luckily, most people have not done direct harm to animals.
But we still should be aware that we indirectly do harm animals because others are harming them and we ignore it.

continued

To your credit, I’ll have to say that it’s true that everybody has the right to fight for our priority issues and we honestly cannot ‘do’ much about every issue- there are too many. But it’s still good to be aware and ‘do what you can'- little things perhaps- even to just buy free-range produce can make a difference.
It would really help community awareness when the local churches remember to address what is said in the bible on animal welfare.

OZGIRL, I'm enjoying this discussion, too ;)
I don’t see a problem with eating meat (I started to discuss this in the Animal Abuse discussion a while ago if you’re interested to read the comments- not too much space here.)
The thing is, in my view it is not viable to ask people to stop eating meat- that’s what the extreme animal activists are doing and things for the animals won’t improve. I am in favour of being sensible abou it and treating our animals well, giving them space and an environment that does not restrict them from displaying their natural behaviour (let pigs dig in mud etc), and let the slaughtering be quick and as humane as possible.

That is completely untrue!

I'm a christian and I just did a WHOLE unit on animal cruelty, yes, a WHOLE unit. Plus, my family is full of christians, and not once have they put more emphasis on women abuse than animal cruelty. I also had to do a powerpoint on battery chickens, how do you think I felt when i saw the pictures of them? DISGUSTED is what i thought. i found it completely inhumane and cruel. And another thing, my teacher -yes, she is a christian- made up a song about battery farming, a WHOLE song, not some riddle, but a SONG. we also had to take a trip to the RSPCA, where we went to a place with pictures of animal cruelty, my best friend is also a christian and she was there AND she thought the pictures were completely HORRIBLE, in fact, she felt like she was going to vommit!(she has a dog). OH yeah, my cousin, he lives and a farm, and guess what they have on their farm? SHEEP and I've seen the way he treats them and that is not inhumane!

Ozgirl and Celiva.

We NOT telling people not to eat meat.

How stupid and counter productive that would be.

We are asking the Churches to speak out about gross animal suffering which is quite unessary.

They should have done it a long time ago.

Has anybody noticed the lack of posts from the extreme groups who do tell people not to eat meat.?

Its curious isnt it.
When you think about all the money they collect from their members one may have thought they might like to explain their reasons for thier stand if only for the members sake.

Could it by that the extreme groups and the Churches have something in common?

Speaking of Silence can It be that Scout and Celivia have hit the nail on the head?

Graham y Thought for the day

The Sermon
A little girl became restless as the preacher's sermon dragged on and on. Finally, she leaned over to her mother and whispered, "Mommy, if we give him the money now, will he let us go.

Maxiyabby . [ i think I have that right dont I?Or is It Steven Maxwell.
>
One Sunday morning, the pastor noticed little Alex was staring up at the large plaque that hung in the foyer of the church. It was covered with names, and small American flags were mounted on either side of it. The seven-year-old had been staring at the plaque for some time, so the pastor walked up, stood beside the boy, and said quietly, "Good morning, Alex." "Good morning," replied the young man, still focused on the plaque. "What is this?" Alex asked. "Well, son, it's a memorial to all the young men and women who died in the service." Soberly, they stood together, staring at the large plaque. Little Alex's voice was trembling and barely audible when he asked, "Which service, the 9:45 or the 11:15?"

Wendy, if I don't respond to one of your arguments it's because I don't see the point. The word and posting limits constrain you to those things that are most relevant - and I think that's a good thing.

I shudder when someone tells me that Steve Fielding, or any other politician, represents all Christians. Family First represents itself, and presumably any who want to be represented by it, but it can't impose representation on anyone. I've just sent them an email asking for a copy of their constitution. Will be interesting to read if it arrives.

BTW, I didn't raise the issue of abortion, Scout did when she talked about Tony Abbott. I'm not trying to goad anyone, I'm examining the issue of whether his position is a religious one or not.

I can't see why a church school would ban discussion of animal cruelty, and I'd be interested to see specifics of which school or schools you are talking about to see whether it was banned on the basis of someone's Christianity, or just because there was a rogue headmaster, or perhaps it was something to do with the way the case was argued.

My children don't go to a church school, but if they did and I heard of something like that I'd be up asking questions of the headmaster, just as I would at the schools they go to now. I'm sure there are some church schools which have peculiar views on things and impose them on the kids, but I'd be pretty sure that's not the majority.

I went to Catholic schools in the 60s and 70s and I don't recall anything being out of bounds. Apparently they almost gave the religion prize to me one year - and I was one of only two Protestants in my year, and quite vocal about what I believed, so they were fairly open to debate. But then the Augustinian Fathers did give us Martin Luther, and they have been strong supporters of science and a liberal education.

I know this is a little off topic but my daughter went to a christian private school for about 3 yrs....
There they taught their students that dinosaurs never existed and of course I was quick to tell my daughter this simply wasnt true...

She started when she was 7 yrs old..it was soon I realised that this school had nothing useful to teach my child except to confuse and lie to her.

So Graham Y..yes some schools do have some peculiar and confusing practices...
I simply dont know what they thought they were trying to acheive..yes of course the whole bit that if evolution was a fact that the Bible was then a lie.?

You won't find too many Christians in Australia who don't believe in creation OzGirl. And I don't think you'll find too many who think the whole Bible is the literal truth. But maybe we should start a new thread...

brown_eyed_girl, thank you for letting us know that you and your family are some of the Christians including your school out there that do care for animals and oppose animal cruelty.

It was a really good initial protest for your class to sing that anti-battery farming song in front of RSPCA; a pretty safe place to start since RSPCA probably agree that this is animal cruelty- did your class or teacher get any positive response from them?

I think it would have been a bigger stir (but unsafer for your school and your class) if the protest had been in front of an organisation that actually supports or profits from battery farming.

Do you still have the lyrics of that song- I’d love you to post it on here! (or is it protected by copyright?)

If you go to church, does your church leader sometimes address animal welfare issues?

Yes, Wendy I am quite surprised that extreme animal activists are not taking part in the discussion. In the “Legal Abuse of Animals” there was at least Pericles who took part in the first part of the discussion.

GY good to hear that you would actually go to talk to your kids’ school to ask questions; I wonder, Wendy, if any parents of that school you mentioned have asked questions and discussed this with the principal? I can imagine that parents feel proud when they see that their kids care much about animal welfare and wouldn’t like their children gagged.

OZGIRL how bizarre to tell kids that dinosaurs didn’t exist- what about all the evidence! Did you discuss this with the teacher- perhaps it was a misunderstanding. Anyway if it was not a misunderstanding it is unacceptable to lie to the kids about this and other things (I assume) and good on you for changing schools.

Good to see this debate heat-up

Fact: the Church IS involved in politics; my confusing Pell and Hollingworth actually underlines that point; Howard appointed Hollingworth and regularly consults with Pell on political issues. Argument validated.


In an ideal world we would have separation of church and state, but we don’t and to claim otherwise is simply deliberate obfuscation of the issue. Therefore, why the selective political involvement by the church?

As I have already pointed out, using Abbot as an example, the church involves itself actively in matters of contraception, lobbies against abortion treatments, funds family ‘planning’ clinics.

But that’s not all. The Catholic, the Anglican, the Uniting Church’s leaders have all spoken out against the IR reforms. Is this not a concerted effort by church leaders speaking out against injustice of a political nature?

Then we have Family First and don’t forget the Brethren; extreme Christians who do not vote but donate heaps to the Libs. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/brethren-linked-to-howard-campaign/2005/09/15/1126750082584.html)

It is obvious that church leaders do get involved in political issues; just not animal welfare or the environment.

I have asked why and have yet to receive a cogent answer. Plenty of excuses, which when examined do not hold up, but no real reason. And there is no excuse. Caring for our environment concerns us all; religion fails to understand that fact. As it is currently presented, religion is only about human beings – and only religious humans at that. I won’t bother to get into the petty squabbles between religious; ‘my god is the only god rhetoric’. With all this infighting, blame and disparagement of non-believers, what hope do animals have?

I acknowledge that religious INDIVIDUALS (thanks brown-eyed-girl - your dad will be proud)) get involved in animal welfare. But humane treatment of animals is not an issue for the church as a whole. There is no Salvation Army for Animals or Fauna of St Lawrence or Catholic Animal Orphanages.

The church is a narrow focus organisation. It has a capacity for great good, but remains inward looking and quite literally can’t see the forest for the trees.

Scout, why are you so angry that Christian churches don't do what you want them to do, because they're not designed that way? Very early on in this thread I pointed to a resolution of the Anglican church on animal welfare, and I'd probably be able to find other examples without much trouble. But what you want is for churches to join your crusade and I can't really work out why.

BTW, we do have a separation of Church and State and you are the one who is obfuscating in suggesting that somehow appointing Hollingworth breaches that separation. He wasn't there representing the church, anymore than Major General Jefferey is representing the army, so how is there a breach of the separation? They're both retired from their roles, and they're entitled to take on other jobs.

And so what if politicians consult churchmen, and churchmen express opinions? Everyone acknowledges that they do, but that it is not their role to get involved in political campaigns. And as the church is concerned with human beings, it's a bit illogical to expect them to be running animal refuges.

celivia, sorry, I don't have the song here! and no, we didn't present it in front of the RSPCA we actually performed it in front of International people! (can't remember who they were, but i know they were important and from all over the world) sorry, i don't know whether it's copyright, but i can remember the verse me and my friend sung:

look for the word, the word is cage,
bright colours pretty pictures are no gauge,
if it doesn't say barn-laid or free-range,
it's probably battery, can you make the change?
it's your choice that sets the chickens free!
so come on now, what's it gonna be?

there was also a cool chorus that i can't remember right now!

I would not describe myself as angry. Passionate? Absolutely. Concerned by the way you deny the influence of the church, specifically the Christian church, in Australian politics, I have to wonder why. What is your agenda? What is your opinion on political groups like Family First, The Brethren, the Federal Government’s prayer meetings – that these are not indicative of infiltration of church into politics?

I am also concerned and dismayed when a group of people claim they are more compassionate than others yet fail to follow through. A lot of talk - no action. Following on from this you seem to be claiming on one hand that the church is active on animal welfare when you reference the Anglican Church’s resolution on animal welfare and, yet go on to say that “It's not up to the Church to come to some conclusion on their (animal’s) behalf.” Are you having a bet each way here?

I don’t understand why you can’t question your own religion on this. The Christian church has evolved to some extent over the centuries; they don’t stone people to death any more. What is so wrong with asking the church to consider its role as a part of the world around it, looking at the big picture, our environment, the welfare of all animals? Without caring for our environment – there won’t be any human beings for the church to worry about.

We are clearly going round in circles on this.

So if you aren’t interested in helping in a broad way – fine, leave it there, don’t try and make up excuses that don’t hold water. All I am asking is that you consider your own responsibility towards animal welfare. For example, next time you buy eggs are ask yourself ‘are they really free-range?’ We have a list of free-range producers on the Animal Welfare site. If buying meat, do you check that the meat was from animals that were free-range and not from intensive farming practices?

You don’t have to involve your church in any of this, just your compassion.

Great verse, brown_eyed_girl, I can imagine it attracted a lot of attention. More teachers like this and more caring students like you is what we need!

You learned at a young age that animal welfare is important- just one teacher can make a difference- teaching a whole group of kids to be concerned with animal welfare not only influences those kids but also future generations.
Sorry that I was confused about the location of this protest.
I’m really impressed by what your teacher did.
It must have been hard to find out the truth about this legal abuse of chickens going on at a young age.

I’m very interested in your project and I’m sure your whole family must have been proud of you.
On our other animal welfare forum that Scout created we have been discussing eggs as well. Freeranger is our expert on this, if you are interested it is this link: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18

Do you have an opinion about the role of the church concerning animal welfare? Do you think it would be a good thing if the church speaks out against animal cruelty?

Monotheism is an extremely self-centred belief, so there's no room for anything in their hearts but themselves.

Micheal4love states, “2) Again, I am not involved in any form of animal cruelty nor will I.”

Michael, you eat meat, dairies, haven't you visited a slaughter house, seen the enslaved in lot farms, or the barbarically tortured battery hens. You eat them, so your a party to slaughter by association. Keeping animals for gluttony is barbaric. You discriminate and abuse animals, by gorging yourself on their enslaved flesh and by products.

Graham Y,
“in fact, I'd say that on the basis of my training and upbringing that someone who was wantonly cruel to animals could not genuinely subscribe to Christianity. “
You don't class the above as wantonly cruel

“If you want to blame organisations for not getting involved in the animal welfare issues, why don't you pick on those organisations whose role it is to get involved in issues - political parties? “

No blame the people gorging themselves on animals for economic and personal greed. I liked you comments on there being a separation of church and state, that's not the case in reality But here is not the place, another thread may be needed for that topic.

When you can stand up and say, you don't abuse animals by exploiting them for your gluttony and avoid the abuse of animals for food. Until you see them as the most important aspect of biodiversity, you'll lack veracity in your claims.

Think of the billions of animals, insects and other wildlife killed when god goes to war against all and sundry. Monotheists have no hesitation in blowing everything up, they never think of the small wonderful creatures they destroy in the name of their despotic god. If the followers of god were so cool, why do they clear the land of all life then build a graven image (church) to ego trip in. Why not sit with the animals glorifying their existence and the nature around you. Simple Yahweh is the god of war, not an animals lover.

Scout

Your right and he knows it

The excuses we have had for years.

Dont knock yourself out girl. We have won

Churches should lead the way and us follow

We dont expect Churches being politically involved with everything under the sun and sit in Silence through all the 60 minutes reports and the other evidence that has been presented over and over again and say NOTHING.

SHAME SPEAK OUT AND LEAD THE WAY AGAINST CRUELTY TO GODS CREATURES

I noticed on the other Animal Welfare post you said to Celiva lets start another post to fund raise for the animals.

I think your current post is fantasic and somebody is at last showing them up.

You girls are making history.
Re fund raising.
Funds required TV adds exposing the churches
Funds for Legals to take the Federal Government To court to FORCE some LAWS, not codes of practice with are self regulated. Its not! been changed in one hundred years.!
The publicty alone would draw international media.
Did you hear Graham? little changes to the act in one hundred years!

My God what type of Christian leaders have we had!??
I work with the Lord. Not the Church.

We need to encourage everybody to support pale and hkm.
Soon we will deliver our report to Peter McGuargns office. Set meeting with him and Mark Vaile ,Downer, hopefully John Howard.
We may not have had much help from the Christian leaders of this country but the Muslim Leaders HAVE helped. We must support the Halal Kind meats cojoint farms to slaughter here in Australia.
There is nobody else presenting this proposal. We have worked hard for four years to put this together.
It really is! the only answer for live exports and jobs for Australia.
Other than that I would like to say I have worked with many people but yourself and Celivia are true ambassadors for the animals
Thank you
You are the ones really doing the lords work.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Alchemist

Want a job?
Your telling it the way it is no ifs and buts is a refreshing read on this forum.

I dont know if you have read all the posts on this subject.[probably not] but we have a counter project which will provide meat without the cruelty.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

The Halal Kind Meat project is not just for Muslim consumers but world wide. As Australia is the largest exporter of live animals in the world we have a reasonsibilty and a oportunity to do something wonderful for animal welfare jobs for Australians supporting Farmers

I asked The Church To look at supporting this however they are not interested in anything much actually and that includes jobs for Australian Familys.

We travelled from QLD to see Senater Fielding being he is representing christains and the Church and thats when I started to get angry.

After writing to Church Leaders for six years and showing footage of the most gross cruelty not one church leader was interested enough to reply. It is truely disturbing.

We are speaking of thousands of letters not just a couplre of dozen.

Welcome to the debate on Church Leaders Turn Their Backs on Animal Welfare.
I hope we hear much more from you in the future.

Good people are rare and I think your a no nonsence person.
We are lucky we also have some nice people on the forum.
What we need to do as well as posting is to get somebody prepared to organise some practicle steps from here.

Of course thats up to the two girls but I am putting my hand up to advise if thats not considered too cheeky.
I have extensive knowledge in this area and I am happy to supply all material advise and outgoings.

May I ask All the readers to join PALE. its only $1.per year

Alchemist Your one of the few good People and I hope you will consider lending a voice to PALE and our Lovely Scout and Celiva ozgirl and the many good people who are rightfully angry with churches lack of action.
http://www.livexports.com/

Marilyn, thanks for your kind words. However I have no interest in the torturous slaughter and enslaving of animals to feed monotheists, or others on the other side of the world. Gods work is war, so why should I help destroy defenceless animals to feed those following a war driven mythical god.

Please, I'm not a good person, just see other life as equal, not for exploitative abuse. The followers of god care nothing for animals, they exploit them at every opportunity to feed their faces. I want all cows and sheep removed from this country and no export of our animals for economic greed, to satisfy some bizarre religious sacrificial stupidity.

Can't you see how hypocritical it is to go round saying you care for animals and their welfare, but cage them up, kill them nicely and sell them to eat for money. I find that bizarre in the extreme. Yet after serving in the church for so long, nothing's bizarre within the despotic actions of gods followers. It's normal for them to indulge in the most barbaric self deception they can find, then call it the good works of god.

Ask animals if they want to be bred to feed the despots of the world. Ask them if they enjoy having babies, then seeing their offspring murdered as their forced to produce a toxic poison for humans(milk), so the fools of the world can make themselves sick.

What do you think they'll say Marilyn. Then again it doesn't matter, their only animals aren't they and here for your abuse. After all, your god gave them to you, to treat as god does all living things, violently destructive.

This thread has 112. posts and Scouts thread 140....that is great going...this competetive spirit is great..

YAY OZGIRL, at least people are talking/thinking about it!
I’m not competitive though- as long as people are interested in talking about animal welfare I’m happy. If we were competitive we’d be fighting over Yabby, hehe.

The Alchemist,
Thanks for your opinion. I have mostly replied to you on Scout’s animal welfare thread. I’d like to add here that I am not at all in favour in caging animals, nor are Wendy, Scout and most others on this thread.

Believe me, I don’t like religions either. The main reason for trying to involve the church is that we need them to wake up, speak out to make the govt, and church members aware that the way we are treating animals is cruel and not acceptable.
The fact is the church does exist and we don’t accept that the church accepts animal cruelty by being silent.
They can speak out on other issues, I expect them to speak out against animal cruelty too. You are correct that they haven't done anything so far.

The reason I don’t find it hypocritical that people care about animal welfare and still aim to improve living conditions for animals and painless slaughtering methods instead of banning eating meat or produce is because we realise that global or national vegetarianism is not going to happen, no matter how much we desire this.

We have to deal with facts and the facts are that most people choose to eat meat, whether this is right or wrong. Denying this is not going to improve things for animals.

Telling people become vegans hasn’t worked in the past and will not work now.
Extremists, with all their good intentions, actually hinder the process of improving conditions for animals.

They don’t want to hear about improving animal welfare because they don’t want anything to do with the caging, killing etc.
So they do nothing except telling everyone that they should be vegetarians.
No way is this going to happen, so the best next option is to make improvements, and we need the govt and church to help do that.

Celivia
Congradulations to yourself and Scout on your work to help the animals.
I beleive these forums will get bigger and bigger.
Yes your idea of the pictures is a good one.
What you need to do allocate who wants to help to one job..
I can assist you regarding the things that need immediate attention so it falls into line and is easily managed.

However I can not be the co ordinator.

I have PALE in conjuction with RSPCA QLD pluss the hKM Halal Kind Meats project on top of the everyday home and horse duties.

We urgently require somebody to read the leads and enquires that are flooding in from overseas in regards to tyhe HKM Co Joint Free Range Farm proposals.

If you or Scout were happy to do that I will sent you the link into the trade leads?
We certainly need more PALE members or you can form your own name and I will just send you as much information as you ask for.

I possibly can get a Support Free Range Farmers Support Web page built for you if you like.

We must start somewhere.

Or We can link It To PALE. Whatever yourself and Scout prefer.

As you know I am trying to work on the biz proposal for The federal Ministers office.
It may Interest you to know that The Beattie Government are very interested in this Free Range Co Joint proposal. I have taken a lot of time out to support yourself and Scout in your forums because I think that is important too!.
Actually I have left two Ministers advisers hanging.

That is how important I think your forums are.

You both Bright and very fair. Lets as Benny Said move on now. What Do You Say?

You never know you may even get Churches offering to help.

Anything is possible if you ask the lord

While I am pleased and I know that Celivia is happy that our animal discussions have been so successful, we are not in competition. This was always a joint effort. Celivia wanted to question the lack of church support for animal welfare and a single thread could not cope. In fact, I think I should have called my thread “Live Export – is it necessary?” because animal welfare is such a broad topic.

In the arguments about the church and animal welfare, one truth has clearly emerged. This was from GrahamY, he stated:

“ And as the church is concerned with human beings, it's a bit illogical to expect them to be running animal refuges.”

I always believed the church was more concerned about human beings and GrahamY’s statement simply confirmed that belief.

And that is the crux of the matter. The church divides people not only among themselves but from the very environment that sustains them! Go figure.

There is a cliché: ‘If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.’

Well, not about to join ANY religion. How about: ‘If you can’t beat ‘em, ignore them’?

We have achieved the largest response from posters on the general discussion sites. We have gathered information, exchanged ideas and are looking towards the future, a future where animals are treated with as much compassion and respect as we would like to be treated ourselves.

To put it simply, we don’t need the church. I am reminded of a line from Groucho Marx:

“I wouldn’t want to belong to a club that would have me.”

If the church suddenly wanted to help a bunch of environmentally aware, humane and compassionate people, you’d just have to be suspicious, wouldn’t you?

The church is about helping itself, keeping people in line, limiting thought, deed and speech.

Time to move on. There are animals that are castrated, debeaked, docked without general anaesthetic. There are animals crowded into conditions where they cannot move around, they never see the light of day, roll in the grass or even run and simply play – as all creatures like to do.

Hello everybody. Good debate happening.

Oz girl, late Steve Irwin had celebrity connection one person could dream of. He also was befriended with Live animal exporters like Murdoch, Packer and naturally befriended with John Howard.
Steve Irwin donated as much money on conserving Wildlife as the Government spent on destroying it.
Steve Irwin is a legend in his own right
As Elton John says in his Song
“Candle in the Wind”.
…… Your candle burnt out long before
Your legend ever did……………

Even so Steve Irwin was a famous celebrity all over the world he was only one person against everybody else.
Yes, he kept his enemies close and rightfully so...

If we want to make a change in this world we need to work together as a team and tackle the Government, churches and every politician right left and centre.

Yabby,
I am sure you know that the live exports is doing extremely well because of the number of politician who are actively involved in exporting live animals.
That`s conflict of interest and doing what is right for our Nation keeping the jobs here.
That`s why Senator Andrew Bartlett couldn`t stop the reopening of the Live Exports.
On the other hand Andrew Bartlett is mixing with the extreme Animal Welfare groups and is not seen as a very serious Politician.
Without jobs, no income, no self esteem, boredom arises and violence (be it domestic or otherwise) and the crime rate are on the rise.

Scout and Celivia

I have been working with native wildlife most of my life.
Last year I gave up my life in NSW, to help PALE in QLD. PALE is the only Group that has a workable plan and answers to help all animals as well as all Australians and Indigenous citizens alike.
It`s your forums girls but if you don`t mind me saying try and built a group under PALE and spread your wings from there.
We need to get a group going in favor of free range farmers.

Antje, the thing is, we don't live in Russiastan or similar. You
cannot compel people to do anything, merely give them choices.

I remember seeing a programme on a kangaroo export works in Walgett
I think it was. There were plenty of unemployed people around,
but the owner had to fly in workers from NZ to do the job.

The thing is, in the end people should do what they have an aptitude
for, anything else usually lands up in failure. Working on a meat
chain takes a certain mentality, its not for everyone.

For a start it needs a work ethic. Out of bed at 6am, at work at
7am, stand there all day doing the same job. No drugs in our life.

In my experience, indigenous people in general, not always, just
can't hack that kind of job and don't last long. Yet they make
superb mechanics, are really enthused and do that well.

Now if in your dreaming of how you think the world should be, you are
trying to force people with an aptitude to being great mechanics,
onto a meat chain, its not going to work. Think about it.

Scout some interesting points. On your comment "The church divides people not only among themselves but from the very environment that sustains them! Go figure." While I was a christain I struggled with the lack of interest in protecting the environment shown by many christains.

The most common factor in the circles I moved in seemed to be a belief that god was going to destroy the whole thing soon anyway and souls were more important. I notice that the world and some of the environment is still here despite their demise having been expected for some time (I'm rather pleased about that).

I guess in other parts of the church the thinking would be different but the core bit is probably a belief that mans (and maybe woman's) souls are more important than this world. Some of us were passionate about the environment but it's an issue in which there is no broad consensus across the church.

For much of the church there is no one central authority (apart from a belief in god and the bible) so most of the political activity is from specific sections of the church rather than a broad controlling body. There is to much in fighting and distrust of those who don't do it the same way for central authorities to gain much power other than in a couple of the big demoninations (RC and Anglican). Just have a snoop at the differing opinions on this site from christains about hell and who goes there.

R0bert

Robert
I have been reading the posts but being nine months pregnant slows me a bit. I intend to get more active after my baby is born. Good thoughts Robert. The problem as I see it is very clear. I read a post by Antje Struthmann pointing out the conflicts of interests.
Scout Great stuff. You can see who is fair dinkim and who is not.
What about this Yabby person. I mean he goes on as if he were a member of a secret soceity for goodness sake. I have done some reasearch and not just in the last week either.
Wendy has long said to the extreme groups as I read in something she wrote on a googles search that we have the wrong sheep in the wrong country.
Apparently Yabbie is breeding sheep just for meat. I actually rang her and she told me you had told her that yabby. Well point one whats the big secret, point two it was her nagging these extreme groups ages ago that brought that into the circle as well.
I am a member of several groups over many years Yabby. Yes many are extreme but that comes from the ever fund raising leaders.

The only reason they wont support free range farms is they might loose a few members fees from the extreme lot. Take it from me because I know. As for the Churches they are already involved in politics. As for our tax payers money going to build yards in the middle East its a bloody joke. Hey Yeh I am sure you want to keep quite about that. Like I said Yabby after I have the baby I will get more involved. I dont want my tax payers money going to the middle east to built stuff that should be built here.
Another thing Yabby Put up or shut up.
he Churches involved themselves in politics Yabby so there are two reasons now they should be speaking out about cruelty to Animals instead of just one.

Yabby

My last responce because all you want is call me a fool and now! a lier.
Animals are suffering this second.!
Its far worse than the public know.
Perhaps recent pictures being dragged off trucks and pushed with no ramps/ when they pull the cows eyes out while alive should be posted!
.
They do it because they are scared of them.

How recent would you like Arsehole, two weeks ago recent enough!

According to you regional and aboriginal people, not to mention all Australians are lazy and dont want to work.

So according to you that given ,we have no choice other than send live animals on long sea voyages to overseas because nobody wants the jobs.

Thats It!

Thats your imput.! The clever Country.

Unlike your type I do wear my heart on my sleeve. I tell it like it is and I have been honest to my own detriment!

However I try to spare upsetting good people as often as I can too.

If you read the web page you will see I also work with AFIC Australian Federation Of Islamic Council In Australia.
Do you honestly think I have no contacts.?
Some of my advisers have been live animal importers themselves years before.
Look you look at the web page again you will see Intensive Farming.
We are very involved with the intensive farming problem and you were asked if you would care to help in that regard.
Again you were not interested.

All you have done since entering this forum is try to discredit the work done by myself and our RSPCA QLD staff.
noted Yabby. .
After a great deal of thought I have decided to disclose your attitude to me when you called. I told you I had just come in from court after a long day due to my Dads passing.
Your reply was> Oh! Hey! your over emoshional arnt you.

I think that tells it all about what type of person you are.
If you cant have compashion for animals you have none for people.

Your certainly proof of that.

Rofl Wendy, imagining things about what you claim I said to discredit me, is not going to matter an iota in this debate. At the end
of the day this debate will be about rational issues, should it ever enter the political arena and your arguments either stack up or they
don't, in the real world of politics.

Last time cows came up in the middle east, it turned out that they
were not even Aussie cows, but that was conveniently forgotten
at the time.

The leader of one of Queensland's largest meat processors just this
very week said he could not find staff, go call him. They have
Brazilians working there, Aussies seem to not want the jobs.

I really don't care who you know, either you have rational arguements that stack up or you don't, end of story. Thats exactly what good debate on OLO should be all about.

Celivia Scout everybody.

Australia has a shortage of trained labour. We will bring in Halal Slaughter training men to train aboriginal and regional people.
Sure we may have to employ some labour from overseas until ours are trained.
Abattoirs are not unique from the problems which have graced this country and yes it will take years to fix it.

A Free Range Farmers guide would help and we are happy to do one if you Celivia and Scout wish.

A to AVA Australian Vetinary Association signed by everybody would help.

If somebody would draft it we will provide background and codes.
You could ask the Churches to sign it.

Yes Celivia certainly there is a need for some funds for Adds to support Free Range.

We are just as committed to intensive farming as live exports.

As we have the elections next year you stand a good chance of making a real difference.

Speaking of elections of course if sombody wished to form a Farmers and Regional Party it would be most welcome.

The national Party are traitors to the farmers flooding the country with cheap imports.

We must offer Farmers a good fair price for their products.
The way to do that is for them to give the middle man the flick and deal direct with overseas purchasers of products of meats.

Fortunatly we have many enquiers from interested overseas investors that ARE prepared to look at running Free Range to creek fed wiping out intensive and feed lots, the cruelty and the diseases that come with them.
Our Governments need to adopt this as a policy.

When the biz proposal and policy proposal is complete we will post it so you can read and hopefuly support it to John Howard, Mark Vaile and Downer.
Who knows if you all write to him Family First might see the advantage.
After all 96 percent of people want an alternative to live exports found as quickly as possible so its a vote issue.
I would just like to say to Scout and celivia your forum is a creit to you both.

Thank you, Wendy, for your support. I just wrote you an email. Good suggestions, we’ll talk about that later.

PS OZGIRL, just aside, forgot to say that I just LOVE Steve’s little daughter, Bindi, she has so much personality, just like Steve had.

I saw this article http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200609/s1734856.htm (September 7th)
What do you think, will the prosecution be successful? I wonder what happened on this ship that so many sheep died. Does anyone know what the cause was? Too many sheep cramped on the ship, no ventilation? I’d be interested to know how this will end- how can it not seen as cruelty when 1000 sheep died on that boat?

Yabby
to your credit I’d have to say that I agree with this coz’ it sounds reasonable: “The thing is, in the end people should do what they have an aptitude for, anything else usually lands up in failure. Working on a meat chain takes a certain mentality, it’s not for everyone. “
Yabby, It’s a good thing that this training opportunity will be created, but I agree that you can’t make people do something if it doesn’t suit them. That is not to say that there might be a lot of people interested in this great opportunity!
I like to be free in my choices, others should have this freedom as well.

Antje, you are wonderful for making your life available to the animals.
I sent Wendy an email to work out what I could do in my available time; I still yet have to find out what my niche is; this might take a while and perhaps trial and error- things will be offered, suggestions will be made. I'd like to work that out with Wendy in private rather than on here.(No one needs to know about my incompetences, hehe.)

I need to gain more confidence, I do want things to fit in with my life and time.

Bedtime for me;) Will talk more later.

Celivia
About the cruelty case> That ship was pretty standard. The company and others have been charged many times.

Most get away because they our out of Australian waters.

It makes no difference to them. A bit of a fine and back to work the next day. If somebody has too many charges they just export in another name[no worries]
Actually a Directer of livecourpe had so many charges against him BEFORE he became a Directer of live courpe it was criminal.

Nobody cares. Interesting way the Department of complience have issued export licences again to the same person just a different company name isnt it.[ no problems]

What makes this case different is that Lyn White has gone for the Government for not doing its job. In other words they refused to act or lay charges in the first place.
The Animal Welfare Act In Australia is the ONLY act that is NOT enforced.
Its powers are clearly directed to the police and RSPCA. However the RSPCA hae a MOU with most Departments of DPI[ Department of Primary Industry.
This of course is a joke so it allows this industry to self regulated.
The RSPCA are too scared to say anything because they fear loosing their powers.

The police are so busy its not practicle pluss until recent talks they young ones were not even being taught anything about the animal welfare act.

The other problem is we need a national code of practise re animal welfare. At the moment each states has different! recomended codes of practise which is NOT enforcable and self! regulated.

One of the best things that has happend is the employment of Lyn White however no one or four people can turn it around.

It takes positive steps. Your doing a good job of exposing the church Leaders. The more the public are aware they dont care about animal welfare the better.
There was a new CEO appointed to the RSPCA national He only stayed two months.

Guess he was too good.

A ridiculous idea, more pain and suffering for animals, bringing in more morons to make money murdering animals.

What your all saying is humans are incapable of evolving beyond barbarity. If this is the case, no matter what you do, things will only deteriorate adding to the growing effect on the environment and the giving control over slaughter to imported barbaric monotheistic foreigners.

Just apologists for death and continuing destruction of life on this planet. You seem to think its only you who are doing things for animals, while you gorge on their remains, hypocrites. There's many who actually practise what they preach, rather than glean economical and egotistical gain from constant murder.

Spend a couple of days in slaughter yards and abattoirs around the country, its a disgusting job. Blood everywhere, the constant smell of death, the pain on the faces of the animals as they are forcibly lined up and see what ahead of them. No different to the christian fascist Germany, you all think your superior, above animals and care nothing for them but your barbaric gluttony.

Support from the church or politicians what a joke, they're all followers of god, so have massive interests in the growing slaughter of animals and life.

Many people on this planet go about caring for animals without fanfare, providing examples for others to follow. For us as a species, we either evolve beyond this disgusting approach to life, or suffer the fate of all species unable to evolve, extinction. This is typical bigotry, you say, its terrible what happening to poor sheep, but I'll have another lamb chop.

No credibility here, just puffing and blowing as Wendy strives to push her economic barbarity, typical monotheists no sense or feelings. Make all the excuses you want, the future will show you your veracity, catching up with you, as it always does to the followers of barbaric practise.

Alchemist
How dare you suppose to know the credibilty of others. I have spoken to Wendy and the RSPCA people she works with. She has and saved more animals from abattoirs than most have had meals. She spends her entire fortune on saving animals. If you have a place for a cow sheep goat horse dog cat or any other animals just say so.
Cant afford to pay for its feed or a vet she will.

You rubbish good people who are trying to stop the animals being sent alive overseas. If you really cared you would be happy for anybody to be pointing out to the public the cruelty. Intensive farming is a very cruel practise and the only answer is to at least make all farms free range again. The Church does have a part to play in Animal Welfare as leaders. She is with Scout showing the adverage person how little they care. Churches win elections. Elections made changes to acts!
I worked loading sheep on ships in WA. Its dam cruel.
Wendy cant stop people eating meat and she knows it.
She can try to make it kinder which is far more than what YOU are doing.
So you dont eat meat. Good for you.
I dont think you have the right to tell the whole world they must be like you however.
By the way and I might be saying too much here but I happen to know the one hundred percent of any investment through this project to stop live exports goes straight back into Animals.
She does not even pay the bills out of it.
I know because I have seen the MOU in place.
I hope you dont mind me letting that be known Wendy But Geez what a big mouth stupid B.
Get off your bum and do something intstead of telling people not to eat meat.
Do something to improve conditions knowing people will continue to eat meat world wide.
Until you do that do not rubbish the few people who are working so hard.
Shut up or put up.

R0bert

Thank you for your considered response. I agree with your analysis of the church. However, it has been worthwhile debating the issue here even if I simply confirmed my original opinion. The church is about saving something (souls) that may not even exist. It places a priority of what may not even be real over the here and now, over humane and ethical treament of all living beings, whether they be animals, human children, or for that matter women. I guess St Francis of Assisi was real aberration both in his time and even now - the church turns its back on enlightenment.

Anyway, moving on.

Pigfarmer has provided a fantastic link to a freerange website which explains a lot about what actually is free range and the difference to intensive farming.

http://www.freerangepork.com.au/

For people who are uncertain about freerange production, I urge you to check out this site.

As Wendy says, we need a national code of practice to bring our meat producers into the 21st century.

Humane farming is both economical and environmentally beneficial. And is achievable.

I was just listening to Ben Lee's music.

His song expresses everything I have been trying to say to the religious, so I thought I'd find the lyrics and post them here.

"We're All In The Together Lyrics

I woke up this morning this morning
I suddenly realised
that we're all in this together
I started smiling
'Cause you were smiling
And we're all in this together
I'm made of atoms
and you're made of atoms
And we're all in this together.
And long division just doesn't matter
because we're all in this together

I saw you walking
In the city
and we're all in this together
The city's changing
cause we are changing
and we are all in this together
every 12 seconds
someone remembers
that we're all in this together
In the kitchen of your rent control apartment

come on people i don't mean to rush you
i only wanted to reach out and touch you
I've got to start to open my heart

I know you think about jumping ship before it sinks
but we are all in this together
ask a scientist
it's quantam physics
we are all in this together
on the subway we feel like strangers
but we're all in this together
yeah i love you and you love her and she loves him
and we're all in this together

You know people there's never been protection
and all the history of human connection
come on darling its alright to show me
you dont ever need to be lonely
once you start to open your heart

I saw you crying
I started crying
cause we're all in this together
and religion is a big decision
but we're all in this together."

Clearly Ben Lee understands.

Benny grow up, its not the 0-20th century, it's the 21st. People thinking your way are a dying race, luckily (collapsing mental and physical health).

“By the way and I might be saying too much here but I happen to know the one hundred percent of any investment through this project to stop live exports goes straight back into Animals.”

Yep back into providing facilitates to slaughter more animals, but in comfort.

I don't need to defend my approach, nor efforts towards the living beings of this planet, to know me and what I do is the product of my example and what counts, to those in my care. This approach is insane and self defeating, all it will bring is more of what we have, more slaughter and more environmental destruction.

I accept, most people haven't evolved beyond barbaric gluttony. Yet I admire those who look after their animals during their lives, finally eating them. They take responsibility for their actions by giving their charges a natural and safe life. Evolving people have no need to restrictively enslave animals then slaughter them in their youth or prime, for barbaric monotheistic economic outcomes.

So the only rational approach to this problem is to take a path that gives the best outcome for all animals, the environment and the barbarians. Change to eating animals that suit the environment, easy to look after and provide a lean excellent meat.

The Australian kangaroo and other natives. All you need is water, bush and fences, no clearing, no chemicals fertilisers, no environmental destruction and lower infrastructure costs. It would increase viability of more land whilst retaining the natural environment, provide a unique and excellent healthy meat. If you want to be more barbaric, it would make a unique healthy export. What else could you ask for.

But its not about caring for animals is it, no its about religion and money.

Scout, my pleasure and thanks for your posts. I hope that input from a former insider helps.

The discussion has been interesting and I'm learning stuff as these threads grow. Hopefully it will make me more able to recognise opportunities to make better choices when I come across them.

That hopefully is part of the real value of these discussion, extra ideas for those of us who are unlikely to become activists but who do try and live responsibly.

My grocery shopping tends to be almost all Woolies because I shop at night after work and the small operators are closed then. Sometimes sunday morning markets for fruit and veges.

Cheers
R0bert

AlChemist.
Just one question.\
How are you stopping live exports?

So You tell us>
How are you! going to stop live exports?

Just answer the question please if you can possibly come down off your higher moral ground.

Your comments about Roos are actually sensible although I am sure they were not meant to be.

Given the choice of a clean bullet and a quick death I know what is kinder.

Anyway back to the task at hand.

You have had plenty to say about our work to stop live exports. OK Now you tell us how YOU are going to stop it.

What is it that You think you can do to stop! the people of the world eating meat?

Or do we just say oh well its cruel and we should not eat meat but there is nothing that we can do to at least STOP these poor animals going ALIVE?

Why dont you work with companies to estabish a chain on alternative fast food outlets like we are. Why Dont yu do something except rubbish what we are doing.

Certainly the Free range web page is great to see. I noted you agreed! with Pig Farmer.

Ok Then If you agreed with that we are just trying to do likewiswe with the animals that are at present going on these death ships.
Got A better idea. We are All Ears.?


Scout and Celivia A petition to AVA is the way to go.
Perhaps Alchemist can help with that.
As they say enough is enough. If there is no thing I agree with Dr Hugh Wirth RSPCA President on its that you cant talk with these extream people because they think that they are on a higher moral ground.
Unfortunetly its these extremists that get everybody from the farmers to the public and Government completly off side.
It is a fact that we live in the real world and not some fantacy world that they seem to delude themselves to.

Robert.

Thanks for all your posts and comments.

They have been very balanced and fair.

I have not meant to ignore you but you have always seemed so balanced.![smile] Pew Thank Goodness we have some normal posters.

Reading your comments about night shopping gave me an idea until Woolworths and others increase their Free Range stock.

Perhaps when The Free Range web site is more organised we could set up people who actually deliver to the home.

They could be made up of the baker and milk from Free Range to Vegies and of course meat.

The Free Range Man Or something like that. If nothing else it would put the wind up a few big stores.

I heard Woolworths are trying to buy more Free Range meat products due to demand but of course at this stage there is not enough.

Who knows they might go into their own Free Range Farms if they feel threatend enough so keep up your great attitude.

I have read all your posts and some of the info is very interesting.

I guess you know we all appreciate it. I hope you do.
Considering your also working your time spent on this forum is very much valued.

What do you think of the new web page for free Range Farmers in Australia?

Any ideas Robert on how we can get the message across to the Church Leaders at the same time educating the public always welcome.

Its really really important that we somehow convince the farmers we want to work together with them to improve not only animal welfare but their lives as well.

I think we can do it but it will take time. At the moment I wont lie to you most farmers are so angry at the attacks from extreme people telling others not to eat meat you cant speak with them.

Still PALE is start and the first of its kind to support Free Range Farmers.
Its one step at a time.

Robert where abouts in WA are you?

Hello Alchemist
Aren`t you a bit off the world of reality?

The fact still remains whether you like it or not, that people will eat meat and will do so for a very long time to come.
In the meantime someone had to find a solution to minimize the cruelty to animals domestic and wild while people decide if they want to be a vegan or eat meat from a source that is less cruel-> free range and support a much more humane slaughter here in Australia.

How much meat society consumes also depends on how many children enter this already overcrowded world.

You have cruel people in all races, and we have to clean in front of our own door first before we attack others.
I lived in the southern Eden- Monaro area ->Snowy Mountains where most of the livestock didn`t have shelter from the elements. Very appalling sight and death must come as a relieve to these animals…

Attacking one of the very few people in this case Wendy is a bit far below the belt line.
She works without any funding and to her own financial costs (unlike some others)vigorously and tirelessly to help the animals up to 16-20/7.

Her only crime is to help the animals to have better living conditions and being slaughtered here in Australia. To spare them from suffering during transport, and to minimize the stress before and during slaughter!
Her aim and alternative project should be seen as one of the best solutions provided by any animal welfare group yet.

There is no personal gain for Wendy in her suggested business as it all goes back to Animal Welfare. I know it as I typed out the MOU with AFIC.

FYI PALE cares for all animals not only livestock and we pay the Vet bills to!
All one can do is educate people and make them aware of what`s happening.

What`s your solution to the problem? Stop society from eating meat? It won`t cut it!
I am listening.

May I ask why are you afraid to post under your real Name?

Yabby,
re Kangaroos This is one of the largest cruel mass slaughters in human history and condemned all over the world. Although there apparently is a need to reduce their numbers in various spot around Australia they are never the less a priceless asset to our Country and bring in the much needed tourism Dollars.

People are entitled to do what they want to do, but there is a limit on how far ones freedom can go and should go.’
I do not want to get off topic so I will not enter into that debate here.

As a toddler I lived for a while next door to a butchery.
Also I didn’t see the animals being killed. I heard their cries and saw them hanging on the rack, pig, deer, wild boar. etc and the occasional cow or bull.
It’s a gruesome sight and the smell is abhorred.
I agree killing and butchering animals be it domestic or wild takes a certain mentality - the one of psychological madness.
Work ethic can be trained and should be forced on certain types of people for various reasons.
Again a topic for another forum.

Certain people need an incentive to know/find out what they are capable of doing.
You know the saying You can lead a horse to water but you can`t make it drink. This applies to people as well.

I do not support a welfare system where people bludge on taxpayers money until pension age and reap as a reward old age pension.
So certain strategic plans have to be in place to accommodate the need of every individual to get them into the workforce that fits them best.
Everybody is good at something and every youngster needs a role model.

It`s a matter to get the best out of the people disregarding the race and color (white, yellow or indigenous)and let them enjoy the work they like best (not including bludging!)

I like Yabbys name....

Just putting a word in their for Yabbys name...not going crazy everyone...
I dont use my real name...which incidentally is Serita.

Wendy, I'm serious about kangaroos, its logical, rational environmental and economically friendly. You wish to make money from murder, then put the money back into making the murder more justifiable for your unevolved barbarity. Kill more animals to breed more followers of god, continue flooding the world with violent despots, whilst the environment collapses. It's purely about money, god and psychopathic insanity.

Abrahams followers have always been barbarians, now slaughter is more sophisticated and efficient, like gods other loving and caring example, war.

A chain of fast food outlets, more opportunity to destroy more animals for egotistical greed. You care nothing for the environment, just feed more by killing more. The planet is desperately overcrowded, our climate and biodiversity is collapsing, we are in a growing massive drought.

Gods answer, build more abattoirs, grow more animals, stuff the environment, stuff real animal welfare, feed me more gore for my insatiable appetite for death and destruction. Science and rational people sees the depth of feelings and individualities animals have, they have a right to live in peace, not transported around the country in the back of trucks squashed like sardines going to slaughter. Of course you'll have mood music in the background, nice pink walls to blend in with the blood, prayers for the souls of those murdered in gods name, to satisfy environmental insanity.

Antje, I also lived on the Monaro, near Bombala, on a simmitel cattle stud. Each year hundreds of lambs and calf's died during the winters in the area, no kangaroos though. That was my last episode in animal barbarity and when I finally left the clutches of the barbarian murderer, Yahweh.

I don't use my real name for one simple reason, as an ex priest, its well know within the christian church, I now enjoy my privacy. Plus, I'm fully aware of the lengths psychopathic followers of god go to in their efforts to instil their righteous upon those who disagree. They're prepared to kill to appease the bizarre guilt ridden hypocrisy of theirs lives. Thats reality

John 13
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16

He also said:
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep

Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 8:22:46 AM

Celiva I found this posted by David Bozo on another post.
I thought you might like to put it up the top of your Forum.

Maybe later we could open another forum. Main Stream groups verses extreme Animals Rights Groups
I would be good to get a few of these people on record for the public.
Alchemist I glanced at your name posted buy didnt read your comment Not to be rude but I am busy as buggery.
This forum was to show up the christians and Church Leaders. I think Celivia and Scout have done that. Who knows from here where it will go. Perhaps a public debate with insight or similar. Maybe some good old fashioned public speaking outside the Churches ,in streets like the lord did.

So as much as you dont agree with the RSPCA main stream approach to eating meat perhaps you could adopt yourself to speaking to Church groups. By the way do you go to the same Church as David.?

No dont answer that I just remembered you dont belive in god either.

As I said your one of those who lives on a higher moral groud to the rest of us. Go now and pass the plate to keep extreme groups in paid jobs and world travel.

Its like a cult and your certainly been brain washed.

I pity you living in the pain of hating people instead of helping them improve animal welfare

Alchemist.

I just read your post. umm Well if you are an x priest no wonder your bitter if you love animals. There is a wonderful lady in Germany like you. Her name is Chrita and she left the Church and now runs Animals Angles in several countries. I will post her email address should you feel like contacting her.

Listen the fast food chain is not animals but alternative meats made from Halal Vegetables. If you feel like lending a hand it would be great. We would like to have them on every street corner next to Mackas evenutally as a healthy alternative.

Alchemist we have to start somewhere to stop live exports.
Eventually and hopefully the alternative vegetable farms will take over from the meat. It will take time. Just imagine if oneday people are poring into the drive through for alternative meat burgers instead of Hungry Jacks. I am sure you would prefer that. No Animals should NOT be trucked around for days and murderded! it still makes me so angry.
Yep we will probably have some mood music I have a vet doing some studies on that right now. I cant lie to you and tell ypou we can build a plant on each corner. What I can say is we will Try!
If we stop them going on the death ships first and slaughter here THEN work really hard to introduce the alternative products and market them correctly we will reduce the numbers.
People will always! eat me. Hopefully after a long time people will eat more alternative products produced from vegetables.
Overseas will always want meat. The best we can try for is at least it goes in a box and not alive.
One day I hope the world eventually changes but we are trying to stop live exports first and set the animals free from the cruel intensive farms first.
One step at a time

ONE STEP AT A TIME

That is the very best we can do.

No blame.

No recrimination.

Just simply travelling towards our goals.

1. Set up new abbatoirs - within strict guidelines for humane slaughter (sorry alchemist).

2. Phase out live export - this can be achieved working with other countries - not against them - as Wendy is doing with Halal Meats.

3. Increase demand for freerange produce - tell your local supermarket what YOU want.

4. Eat more vegies - if you are unable to purchase the kind of meat you want, eat more vegetarian meals, better for you anyway. Everytime you are at the check out, leave a note for the manager that you aren't purchasing any meat until you are sure it is freerange and humanely produced.

5. When you go to church (if ANY Christians are still reading this thread) tell your minister about your concern for ALL god's creatures. Tell him what you are doing towards ethical treatment of animals.

6. Keep posting on this and the Animal Welfare thread

7. Get Up is currently conducting a survey to determine issues to hit the pollies with next Fed election. Fill out the survey - its free and will make a difference

http://www.getup.org.au/

8. Tell your friends, family - not only that you love them but you love animals too (in the non-biblical sense).

Thank you

"re Kangaroos This is one of the largest cruel mass slaughters in human history and condemned all over the world."

Ok, so better just to let them multiply ad lib, then let millions
starve to death in the next drought?

Re employing people, in a liberal democracy you cannot force them.
You can encourage them, cajoule them, whatever, but not force them.

There are plenty of people who simply don't want to work on a meat
chain. Just because you think its a good idea if they would, does
not make it so. If you try to force them, you will land up with
disaster.

Best you spend some time to find out what their aptitudes are,
what they enjoy doing, are passionate about etc and then find
them employment doing what they enjoy doing and also make a living
at it at the same time.

Wendy and Antje are not Hitler or Stalin! Just because you think
some people should work on a meat chain, means that those people
agree with you.

I think that this discussion thread is about to come to an end- we have noticed by now that Animal Welfare is not even a side dish on the Church's lavish table d'hôte.

I would like to thank everybody for their wonderful contributions.
I mean everyone.

Wendy, with her helpful and sometimes shocking information, Scout and her ability to look at the bigger picture and seeing the essence of it all, RObert, as an ex-Christian, for his very funny but amazng insight that Christians might think it's no use to save the environment as the end of the earth is overdue and souls need saving! (sorry RObert I let your own discussion go, I did lack time but will still read it) , Big-eyed-girl for showing us how wonderfully caring Christians can be and that there are luckily still Christian teachers out there who DO care about animal welfare, Yabby for his yabbyness comments, The Alchemist for being the atheist Alchemist and there are so many others who I haven't mentioned but deserve to be. There is not enough space to thank everyone.

I haven't been able to post much these last days, but will use this discussion as a well of information.

I will start a new thread on Fundraising ideas soon, which I plan to utilise to support animal welfare, but if successful I hope it will be helpful for other people's causes as well on their own way to improve our world.

I found a link to a book that hopefully might inspire a straying church leader to save a little space in his thought for the animals. Title: The Dominion of Love: Animal Rights According to the Bible (Paperback)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590560094/104-4729926-9925564?v=glance&n=283155

Thanks all!

No Celiva It is The Animals and us who thank You.

Yabby There are plenty of people who want not only to work on farms , abattoirs, and much more.
Had you even bothered to read the Halal Global Australian All Kind Meats Web Page you would have found the proposal offers so much than just a job.
Its offers a partnership in farms, abattoirs throughout Australia.

Its giving oportnunitys for aboriginal people to OWN part of a plant or farm. its giving jobs back to country towns such as plumber, electritian, packaging mechanical and the corner store. Its re opening all those country towns that closed down one bu one because of the only employment leaving. ABATTOIRS!
Dontb you worry about that we will get staff because they will be treated so much better than just staff. Many! will be co owners


As for Roos I happen to agree with you which is why the Roo Ranches with Aboriginal and regional area people are on offer too.
Roo plants as well with vaule adding smaller plants.

We have had meetings with people in the indudtry with a view to use only profeshional shooters and introduce silences.

oh and Yabby the farmers are actually paid per roo!

Thats another win win for the industry and improvement for animal welfare with farmers no longer maiming purposley so the animal crawls away and dies slowly from lead poising.

But Yabby regardless the old bucks will not eat in a drought its nature. They lay down and yes die slowly. So really there is no reason to cull its just humans excuse.
its a sad world for animals which really tests my strenght in my faith.
You are as aware as any of us the church leaders have stuff all interest in animal welfare. Ceilvia has vertainly made that a matter of record. on that at least you cant argue.

2006-06-04 helen hobson australia my parents own a properity and sell cattle to the meat industry, however i beleive that selling the best being alive is completly unnessary and cruel to have an animal travel the long distance to be slaughtered in a different country when you can still deliver the same product if the animal is slaughtered in australia. not only are the animals traveling the distance alot of the time they die before they get to there destination due to the employees torturing the animals, the animals themsleves standing on top of them or the disease which is spread easier due to the un-hygenic conditions and the animals being in tight compartments. read my comment and thoughts on this topic regards helen hobson

Australia is currently experiencing a severe cattle shortage which has led to the closing down of several abbatoirs.

andrew mountford UK After seeing a video of a cows and sheep which had been exported from Australia being slaughtered in a Ciaro abattoir filled me with revulsion and anger. As a producer of meat you should provide your animals, as a minimum a good life and a humane good death. PLEASE end you live exports of animals to countries which are unable to provide this.

alicia mountford UK After seeing a video of a cows and sheep which had been exported from Australia being slaughtered in a Ciaro abattoir filled me with revulsion and anger. As a producer of meat you should provide your animals, as a minimum a good life and a humane good death. PLEASE end you live exports of animals to countries which are unable to provide this.

006-05-21 sonia medeiros brazil I can't understand the cruelty. I believe that the devil live there, live inside people. The laws are made for the bad side. Help the animals from this animals.
2006-05-21 Mandeep Sagoo United Kingdom
2006-05-21 Sarah Maitland Brisbane, Australia Exporting animals alive is a cruel way to die. They end up being killed anyway if they survive the torterous journey. Surely is makes more sense to freeze the meat for export

Celivia, You may not understand this, but I am neither an atheist, agnostic, monotheist, deitist, humanist or secularist, I follow no ism, or believe in any current ideology.

Your thread's been interesting, and I thank you for it. Along with scouts, it shows the depth of ignorance and stupidity the human race uses in its desperation to destroy everything in its path.

There's no animal welfare on either thread, just better ways to indulge in barbarity and increase planetary destruction. I've learnt one thing though, there's no hope for the human race, nor help in survival from the mythical Yahweh.

Your all so desperate to find the right form of apologist approach, to sanction and sanitise your continuing depravity. The more it's gone on the more Wendy has salivated, as she sees more and more symbols of her gods veracity, abattoirs rising amongst the filth of environmental destruction, death and gluttony. Your only aim is to increase monotheistic populations to fulfil the destiny of your god, total destruction of life on the planet. Very self defeating, but typical of Yahweh following clones.

Its really important for you to raise funds, promoting more slaughter in humane conditions, (read exterminations camps). You sure have learnt a lot from your Christian nazi ilk. Even the jews have learnt the art of complete destruction and implement it with deadly precision on all and sundry.

Actually if you could, I'm sure you'd all be happy to kill, eat and export everything that moves, to satisfy your insatiable depravity and greed.

Alchemist...Although both Wendy and I agree with you in essence about the cruelty shown towards animals and even Wendy has said, she wishes that all meat eating should stop for the love she has of animals...she is very committed.

I love animals too...I believe they have a heart spirit soul as we all do...but to use your form of expressionism the way you do only serves to make you appear very extremist and way out of left field..
That way you tend to lose your effect as to the point ur trying to drive home.

I love your love of gods creatures...heaven knows they need all the love they can get...but try to hear what pple like Wendy are actually saying..
Noone on this thread has evil, self serving intent toward animals and u should be pleased that pple even raise this whole question to even begin to adress issues...a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step..

It is not going to work to demand everyone stop eating meat tomorrow..it wont happen, but at least we can be doing something to make conditions better for animals in the meantime.
A sense of proportion is needed here..
And it may pay u to actually read pples post so u can answer them rationally.

I would like to echo my thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

I am glad that Alchemist is a committed vegetarian - maybe one day we all will be.

Until that day, the best we can do is ensure that animals raised for produce are well treated, free ranging, healthy and slaughtered in the most humane methods possible.

And a good first step is to put a halt to live export.

As for the church, well if the christian posters are unable to rise to the challenge, then that is sad. Even sadder that our Federal Government has become controlled by fundamentalist Christians.

Below is a report written by John Warhurst on 21st Century Australian National Politics.

In summary, John states that the past 10 years has: “More than any other federal government the senior members of the Howard government have been active, in word and deed, in emphasizing (or at least being open about) its religious credentials and beliefs and in emphasizing the positive contribution of Christian values to Australian society. One has only to compare the publicly Christian approach of the Howard-Anderson-Costello-Abbott team, for instance, to the privately Christian, even secular,approach of the Fraser-Anthony-Lynch team in the 1970s to see that this is true.”

The full report is available on the Parliament of Australia Senate Website, therefore I posit that even John Howard himself would concur on his religious beliefs governing much policy.

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/occa_lect/transcripts/

continued

Further examples of religious indifference on the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

“The CATHOLIC Encyclopaedia informs its readers that "the visible world with which man comes in contact is divided into persons and non-persons. For the latter term the word "things" is usually employed...animals, in contradistinction to persons [are] classed as things." By arbitrarily relegating animals to the category of "things" theologians have effectively excluded them from the moral and ethical consideration due them as sentient beings.

Of course this is an absolute contradiction of the second chapter of Genesis which clearly states that both animals and humans are "nefesh chaya"--living souls. But religious spokesmen frequently ignore the Bible when it conflicts with their man-made doctrines. St. Thomas was no exception.”

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/religion_aquinas.asp

We gave the opportunity for Christians to help us with animal welfare – well it is never too late, people. Stop your navel gazing (and petty attempts at point scoring) and start now. All you have to do is purchase freerange produce - that's not too hard it is?

Thank you

Thank you, OZGIRL.

I want to make clear that I'm leaving this thread open for discussions as I got a couple of requests asking me not to close it.

It wasn't my intention to take it off OLO- we can keep talking if you must ;)But perhaps the Animal Welfare thread would be a better place to discuss general comments about animal welfare.
Antje kindly offered to keep an eye on this thread for me while I busy myself with my new thread (will be soon)and will be here when I can. Thanks Antje.

Oh ok Alchemist, I got that wrong for jumping to the conclusion that you're an atheist (you just didn't sound like you believed in any God).

Alchemist,
I can see from a certain point of view that it seems hypocritical to eat meat while wanting to improve conditions for animals to be slaughtered. The logical thing would be: well if you really want to improve things for animals then don’t slaughter them.

The thing is, although it would be ideal if no one would eat meat, this will not happen because no one knows how to achieve this.

Say that YOU don’t eat meat and save a sheep per year from death. What would YOU like to happen to that sheep you saved with the knowledge that there ARE other people who will eat it?

a) graze on natural paddocks near a creek, taken to a nearby abattoir and slaughtered legally and as painlessly and quickly as possible?

b) thrown on a ship, make it travel for weeks in cramped and inhumane conditions, then be sold to someone who ties the legs together and chucks it in the boot of a hot car to travel a few more hours till it’s dehydrated; to some dirty bathroom (I have seen the footage) where its throath will be slashed while fully conscious?

c) exported in better conditions and slaughter it on arrival?

d) Tell people not to eat your sheep and cross your fingers.

Alchemist what would YOUR first step be to improve things for animals?

Thank you Scout, for your summary of the report! Sad indeed!
Perhaps it is now time to emphasise the negative contribution of Christian values to Australian society. (This would be a great topic for a new discussion, too!)Then we can send it to Howard hehehehe.

I hope he is not going to confuse Australian values and Christian values even more- that would mean that immigrants (and I suppose all Australians) would have to answer to Christian values dressed-up as Australian values. Grrrrr!

It’s ironic that Christianity is so-called so evolved, but in fact is quite primitive.
To see the earth as a whole, to see yourself as part of a whole, as the aboriginals do, for instance, is a far more evolved idea than having this unnatural division between the human soul and anything else.

And then add to it all those contradictions Scout points out (I’m sure there’ll be many more) Christianity sounds illogic, unreasonable, selfish and short-sighted to me.

John 13 THIS WAS WRITTEB BY GRAHAM Y {ON ANOTHER POST!

12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16

He also said:
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep

Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 September 2005 8:22:46 AM

Celiva I found this posted by David Bozo on another post.
I thought you might like to put it up the top of your Forum.

Maybe later we could open another forum. Main Stream groups verses extreme Animals Rights Groups
I would be good to get a few of these people on record for the public.

This forum was to show up the christians and Church Leaders. I think Celivia and Scout have done that. Who knows from here where it will go. Perhaps a public debate with insight or similar. Maybe some good old fashioned public speaking outside the Churches ,in streets like the lord did.

So as much as you dont agree with the RSPCA main stream approach to eating meat perhaps you could adopt yourself to speaking to Church groups. By the way do you go to the same Church as David.?

No dont answer that I just remembered you dont belive in god either.

As I said your one of those who lives on a higher moral groud to the rest of us. Go now and pass the plate to keep extreme groups in paid jobs and world travel.

Its like a cult and your certainly been brain washed.

Yes celivia , Scout Ozgirl Michael Antje Ben and the many others you are proving your point!

Ozgirl, lovely name. You should use it.

Celiva Scout Ozgirl Ben Antje Mike Rex Pig Farmer free Ranger and the may others. Yes You too Yappy.

We as Celivia and Scout have suggested> Break up the forum into several issues
I will prepare a petition for Family First and All Churches.

We will on another post challange this extreme group who have appointed themselves as the so called Federation umbrella for Animal Welfare groups in Australia.

We will INSIST that the Federal Government appoint a more balanced list of Animal Welfare advisers to sit on the boards.

We have two people very qualified Free Ranger and Pig Farmer and there are plenty more out there. Of course pig farmer and Free Ranger would have to be interested and we can discuss that by email.

At the monent it is made up of people with HUGE conflicts of interest OR self appointed Extreme people who again do nothing for Animal Welfare by driving and pushing vegetarians groups.

Vegatarians are good people living on an unreasonable expectation of others.
They try to inflict their wonderful vaules onto others.
Dont get me wrong> I wish everybody was veg or vegan, but they are not.
Making money out of memberships of these people wont help the animals. It will only keep certain people in Cushy jobs.

It is very important to acknowledge the Churches that DO involve themselves in Animal Welfare.
Celivia in the next week I will list and post the names of these good Churches and their leaders who have recently turned around and said YES we should stand up for animals.

On the Gold Coast Last Year we had two more Churches doing the blessing of the animals.

One of these was a Church leader From The Catholic Church.

We are of course very busy and in need of help.

So if any of you would like to join pale for one dollar OR start your own branch of pale we would welcome the help for the animals

Wendy, the press, including the rural press, is full of stories
of labour shortages in northern Queensland, on farms, stations,
the meat industry etc. Fact is that many workers have moved into
the booming mining industry, for huge bucks, much as in WA.
Rural industries simply cannot compete.

Why would farmers want farm partnerships with anyone? They have
a hard enough time with family partnerships, marriages, siblings
etc. Look around you, even brothers can't agree how to run
a farm alot of the time, let alone overseas partners.

Aboriginal people already own lots of stations and farms in
WA. The problem always seems to come back to the lack of aptitude
for management. Infrastructure like bores need fixing. The
RSPCA moved in on some of those stations, thousands of cattle
were dying of thirst. Once again the point is, find people occupations
for which they have a natural aptitude, rather then
your social engineering a la Wendy.

Your social engineering continues with your small regional
abattoirs, which in a market economy,
is bound to fail, no matter who owns them. Like it or not, our
economy is about efficiency and comparative advantage, which
happens with large, highly mechanised works, leading to low
per unit labour costs. You might feel all fuzzy inside about what
you plan to do, at the end of the day, its a competive world
and if your operation does not stack up, it will go broke.

If roos are not killed by professional shooters, who are extremely
accurate shots, your Queensland regulations are overdue for an
overhaul to bring them up to standard, as in WA.

There certainly is a reason to cull. Dying of hunger is not a pretty
picture. It just doesent appear on tv often enough, so you city
slickers can't reach for the tissue box and relate to it so well.

Church leaders should preach to the flock and no more. If you are
happy to see them involved in the politics of animal welfare,
don't complain if they become involved involved in the politics
of Wendy's uterus.

Wendy I would like to join PALE...if there is no info already on this forum...can you supply it..ta...Serita

Serita

love! it

http://www.livexports.com/

0755392369 Yappy
Rural press %99 media either have shares, a direct conflict

WA couldnt get the story about the other CORMO express


Many driven from the grazing lands that they ran their cattle through for three generations.

So the illegal kills of roos and other cruel games people can catch wild animals and export alive.

Thats why our bush fires are so bad and the creeks filling up with weeds. No stock grazing to clear them anymore.

Aboriginal people have land. However no funds to do their OWN progects. .

You have such a low regards for Australians Yabby.

You dont appreciate aboriginal people but plenty do. When they own! part of the biz.

Farming animals , building plants is just small part.

Roos in QLD and Roos anywhere are better off being shot by profeshional shooters.

Yabby you really should read the web sites.

QLD Just updated the Roo Codes on a federal level. .

It was in the newspapers. The work was carried out by this. Antje Struthmann pluss myself.

Handed to Mark CEO RSPCA who we co run this office with. Put through with RSPCA accreditation.

EVEN if we were not using GATS we could easily slaughter here send and whole caruss.

Plenty of overseas people are interested.

Do you really think we are going to keep funding the Rich oil middle east building yards and whatever else they want. ho ho ho.

They are smarter than you.

You speak of the cruel muslims knowing that they have never had any training and most have less understanding of a beasts thinking.

Regarding your last crude comment, which certainly, isnt the first, I am ,REAL pleased you came on Forum

Thank You Yabby you have demonstated to the public what low types support these cruel industries.

I really could not have done it as well without You.

Oh Just one thing however>

Dont Ever! Speak to me like that Steve again.

Ozgirl

Sorry sorry but I had three computers go down and then read Yabbys post.
It would be great to have you ion board and anybody else who is intereted. Mike i joined your group and wont know if I have been excepted until the office is running computer wise Again. I hope so because you have common sense. Ozgirl I may as well tell you about our domestic voilence programe that runs through the QLD RSPCA as well[remind me] I think it will interest you with your uni study.
Fopr the reast of thios post I would like to talk about the people on the boards of our different animal welfare advisers.
Far too masny of these have huge conflicts of intersts like Amandas pigs and many live expoters.
clearly we must balance this a bit.
Then in the left corner we have the exreme lot that tell others not to eat meat so that works against the animals too.

It all started years ago on a political handskake to hold the first animal welfare enquiry.
it was granted but ONLY if it was put forward from a vegatarian point of view.
Hello is anybody home?

Clearly a comfortable postion to raise money from vegans and veg people withoutv ruffling feathers.

FUND RAISERS.

So the balance thst has been missing from mainstream is clear.

We look forward to supporting free range farmers and opening many more free range farms.

The middle East DONT need our tax money I can tell you that much. Its just the same old same old. The AWB at least tried to keep their interests in live exports quite.

Not this lot. THEY are funding it with YOUR tax payers funds. Then telling good farmers like the free ranger and pig farmer you have no skills to market.

Thanks Also To All those church people who offered to take an interest in Cruelty to Animals.
Note

For those who question the knowledge, sophistication and skills of people like Pigfarmer and Freeranger, I suggest you simply check out their websites:

http://www.freerangepork.com.au/

http://www.freeranger.com.au/

While the OLO christians remain disinterested, as Wendy says there are church communities who do become involved in animal welfare. At the Lort Smith animal refuge and hospital a chaplain, Barbara Allen has been appointed to counsel people who have lost a dearly beloved pet. While this is support at a domestic level, I am sure there are many other church groups doing their best.

I am looking forward to Wendy's list of church groups as this is evidence that St Francis of Assisi has not been forgotten.

Wendy, your last post was frankly a heap of mumbo jumbo, I certainly could make no sense of it. Perhaps the philosophy argument about
your uterus, went clean over your head. Philosophy and principles matter, for some of us anyway.

A huge amount of good is being done by MLA vets in the Middle East,
read the vet reports from there. Often its not even funding, but
advise on building plants, feelots etc. The latest ones even have
chilled water laid on for the sheep!

As Cameron reported on his trip to Jordan, even there in the abattoir, stun guns were being used. Aussie influence matters, funded by farmers of course! No animal welfare groups involved, they are sitting in their armchairs, fooling around on the internet.

Wendy, with all your massive claims, you go and play around there
in Queensland a bit, as you told me that you were going to. When
you have some runs on the board, lets talk about it. Action speaks
far louder then words, so far all you have is claims.

Meantime leave WA and its farmers alone, or I will keep pointing out
the flaws in your arguments. Once again in this week's Farm Weekly,
orders for lamb and mutton being knocked back from WA, no workers and
they can't bring in more 457 workers right now, so orders are being
lost. Thank Allah for the live sheep trade! :) Its far better then
having them starve in paddocks, as you have no solutions for us it seems, just lots of talk.

.
Celivia..hi there...so you thought youd just pop your head in randomly to the Steve Irwin forum and in your inimatable style toss in a bit of self rightous mumbo jumbo about which you knew nothing...condescending and patronising crap.

How dare you..There have been many times on this thread that I felt Id like to take a pop at you too...but in the interest of fairness and civility I left it alone..

From what I see of you so far Cel..you strike me as a bit of a controlling type and that is not very seemly for a lady.

You said to me on here I think 'lets not make personal' when in actual fact it was you then and also now..

You are making it personal against me...but hey..I can speak up and always do.
You thought if you took a pot shot at me on a forum totally unrelated to the animal threads that no one else would know?That youd get away with it?
This I do know if it were Wendy or Scout in the other forum you would have said not a word...
Its you who makes it personal...

Looks like I've run out of posts on the AW thread, but as everyone seems to be posting on both, I shall simply continue here :)

The thought of a couple of weeks on one of the boats, off to the Middle East, is not a bad one. Cameron Morse clearly learnt lots,
it sounds like a good idea to take along some books to read, of which I have many, waiting for time.

I could even give an accurate, unbiased report on conditions, but of course for the true believers, never let facts like that interfere with the story, as Cameron Morse showed us.

Wendy, if a young and attractive vet was onboard, I would probably give her the schmalz that so many females seem to want and then seduce her :) Females being slaves to their emotions is fairly common, just note the Mills and Boon sales etc.

Between the lines, I think that your real problem is your fear of death. Get used to it, no matter which species, we all get recycled.

When Wendy dies, a few tears will be shed, but the worms will devour her carcass, bit by bit, meat mincer or not. Ok so they decide to burn her and spread the ashes off the gold coast, onto
the blue water, along with some flowers and tears. All very sweet.

But reality of course will prevail! Those ashes will be gobbled up by algae or other lifeforms, which will be gobbled up by fish, which will likely be caught by some Queensland seafood export company and
perhaps exported to the Middle East. Wendy's remains could well
land up in the belly of some big fat Arab in Mecca!

Anything to cheer up your girls :)

Well Yabby you do know you have a date with a boat load of sheep i hope?

Hope all your shots are up to date..
Im sure you would make the most of any journey you undertook yabby:)
and quite frankly I never saw you as the secucing type...

But then you might look like Leonardo Decaprio for all I know..

Have a safe journey and come back safe...in time for your next post at least..
Your thread is very topical..well done

part 1 of 3

Exerpt from GOD'S BROKER. Published in 1984, Anton Gronowicz

In this book the author quoted the late Pope John Paul II relating a
dream he had in 1969 while still a Cardinal.

The Pope said: "The night before my departure from Canada to New
York, which I had never seen, I had a strange dream."

"It was a terribly severe winter in New York, the city was
completely covered with snow. Inhabitants were well-off and warmly
dressed, and walking slowly along roads because cars, due to
mountains of snow, could not be operated. I was happy that I could
walk on top of the snow on avenues of white.

"All my physical effort was spent on walking. To this day, pictures
of huge apartment houses on both sides of the avenue are instilled
in my mind, and the doormen quickly closing and opening entrance
doors as though trying to prevent humanity and warmth from escaping.

"On top of the snow, I noticed a brown cat emerge from a side street
and walk on the snow. I looked closer, and to my surprise, saw that
this big cat was being followed by six small brown-and- white
kittens, all of them following the big brown cat in a perfect line.
The mother cat looked back from time to time to see if her babies
were there, but her main concern was to reach the entrance door. I
presumed she was trying to find warmth for herself and her children,
but as soon as she reached the door, a man in a well-pressed
uniform, jumped at her with a broom and chased them away.
I followed this procession and prepared to deliver a speech to the doorman.
I opened my mouth and tried to complain, 'Where is your proverbial American generosity

part 2
Where is your American good heart and fair
play? Let them in. Let them in!!

"I tried to speak, but the words would not come out. Maybe I was
afraid of the doorman with the broom. I started searching my cassock
pockets for a piece of bread, found some crumbs and put them on my
palms, calling: 'Kitty, kitty, kitty.' But the words would not come
from my supposedly intelligent mouth. Instead, the wind blew the
crumbs from my palm and I said, 'what can I do? I can't speak to the
cats. I can't speak to the doorman. But there are many hungry birds.
They might pick up the crumbs.'

"Again, I walked after the cats, now with a pain in my chest,
feeling tremendous cold. On the left I saw a church building and
thought, 'There we will find help.' I heard singing and again, the
idea occurred to me that it must be a Catholic church. The music
grew louder, as though trying to convince God that they were praying
to Him.

The mother cat jumped in front of me and climbed the stairs,
followed by her kittens. I raised my head and saw a tall Jesuit
priest chasing the cats off the steps. But as I was about to shout
at the Jesuit 'I am a cardinal!' and give an order to accept the
cats, the mother cat and her offspring ran behind the church,
because from there came the appetizing aroma of food. Probably there
was a kitchen there. But a second Jesuit appeared at the kitchen
door and scared the cats away. They returned to the avenue and
started walking north.

"They walked on the same side of the avenue as the Jesuit church and
I followed. Then they reached an imposing red brick church. An
Anglican bishop appeared and said to the cats, 'My dear animal
children, please go immediately to the animal shelter. There is food
for you there. We Anglican clergy donate lots of money to the animal
shelter, every year, at Christmas time.

part 3

The mother cat and her kittens didn't even meow. They knew the
authoritative voice of the Anglican bishop. They walked uptown and
gradually the luxurious buildings disappeared, together with the
doormen, and we saw drab dilapidated apartments.

"As they walked and the buildings grew shabbier and dirty, a door
was opened, not by a doorman but by an old wrinkled woman in a
cotton dress. [She saw the cats] and shouted 'Oh, little mother,'
and when she opened her mouth I saw she had few teeth. She gently
ushered the mother cat and kittens inside, who jumped happily about
because the warmth of the house embraced them."

The author wrote that "I had never seen such a sad expression on the
face of this man."

Later on a pilgrimage to Assisi, the Pope discussed St Francis and
stated that his "solicitous care, not only towards men, but also
towards animals and nature in general is a faithful echo of the love
with which God in the beginning pronounced his 'fiat' which brought
them into existence. We, too, are called to a similar attitude.

Cameron Mourse

Will be going with you Yabby on the cuise Ship in the next episode.

We will be sure to hand him over in a car boot to be sent off for sacrifice.

Mind you cant tell you too much more about the three months trip.

To make it educational we will stick to facts Ships names, times , destinations fires ventilation problems and all the other things that have happend.

Watch out for that lot that bashed all those calves to death with sticks now yabby Wont you.

If I can get the pics to work on the forum I will pop those up for you both to sit and watch onboard.

Give you both something to look forward to.

Onboard you can decide between the two of you which one wants to watch as the others throat is cut.

What type of car boot you would like to travel to your FINAL trip on your cruise.

Which end you would like to be dragged by up the ramp to the slaughter room.

EG Some prefer to slide along on their mates blood by the back, some the head.

How halal do you want to Be Yabby? What about Cameron?

Do you want to be twelve minutes Halal? Ten minutes Halal?

How long do you reckon it will take to drain the last drop out of Camerons body?

Anyway plenty of time yet to chat it onboard the pleasure Cruise.

Pity Australia AQIS argued the halal time recently here isnt it!

Got it down from the requested twelve minutes laying there to six.

Gee how kind of them.

For those of you who dont know halal means to a muslim lawful.

If an animal is not slaughered Halal the meat is forbidden to eat.

The Koran reads and the Islamic Leaders have put out a media

Release denouncing cruelty prior to slaughter.

if for eg a person was caught not providing halal to their buyers they would be in serious trouble.

Antje...whatever..

Wendy,
Like Scout, I too look forward to the list of these good churches- they deserve to be mentioned.
Your suggestion to put this on top of this thread is not a bad idea “”I am the Good Shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep”. I might ask the admin people when they reply to me about another request I made a couple of days ago. I don’t know of a way to do it myself- there are no edit icons anywhere.

Yabby,
The point that Wendy makes about Aboriginals having land is probably quite valid.
However, I also agree with you as I have before that we can’t ‘make’ regional people and/or Aboriginal people accept a job as a meatworker. It’s not everybody’s thing.

However, wouldn’t it be a good thing to give all those people at least the opportunity to be trained as meatworkers and a job if they’re interested?
I can’t say much about farming as I know nothing about it- but it does seem like a good opportunity for a lot of unemployed regional people- IF they are interested.

Has there been a recent survey to find out how big the interest for these jobs is in that area? If yes, what were the results?
If no, perhaps we should do a survey- the proper proposal presented to them so that would be some guide whether how many people would be interested in this (anyone in the area with knowledge who could do a survey thing?)
What would this extra income mean to them?
How would they feel about helping Australia stop live exports this way- by working as a meat worker? Perhaps many would be proud to play an important role in the ban on live exports.

continued

One point that Yabby makes and is relating to this church thing, the church and women's issues is a good argument too and not to be ignored - I think I’ve said somewhere why I would like to see the churches speak out against animal cruelty- can’t remember where, the posts are so long!

It is a bit of a conflict: Yes on the one hand we want the church to stay out of issues like women’s rights, gay issues etc, but on the other hand we want the church to interfere with animal rights.
This is a good point to discuss as I felt this was a bit in conflict as well.

I’m thinking: well, whether I like it or not, the church DOES interfere with politics and DOES for instance, try to hold back same sex marriage, and DOES try to prevent abortion (while doing nothing to promote contraception btw). If they are already interfering in these other issues, then I would expect them to interfere with animal issues as well. Even though I’d rather shove ‘m out of politics altogether.

I can see how someone else might look at it differently and say: you cannot ask the church to board a boat of sheep if you don’t like them on the operating tables inside the abortion clinics.

If anyone has any other view to help solve this conflict, yes please- I find it difficult to just see just one side of the issue (because I would prefer a (more) secular state).

Although -women and homosexual people can defend themselves- animals can’t. It would show the caring side of churches to be on the animals’ side and defend them.

OZGIRL,
I’m not in the mood for drama. I left you a note on the Steve Irwin thread this morning

Antje,
A beautiful dream of the pope! Thank you for sharing that! Loved it.

I’m sure church leaders would love this dream as well. Would be good to enclose this dream story whenever we write to a church about animal issues.

Ozgirl
I hope you still want to join pale.

Cilivia

Thanks for your comments perhaps I didnt make myself clear.

Nobody is telling aboriginal people they must work in abattoirs although we would train anybody interested.

Aboriginal people have stations and land they cant afford to do anything with.

So if they are interested they could just be ranchers of goat, shep, beef, vegies, camel, roo buffalow. bullock fish farms to metion a few.

In other words they can made money sitting on their verandah.

If they want to get involved further we would welcome value adding.
Vaule adding is products from the inside of the animal made into small goods.
At the moment of course all those jobs are shipped overseas for jobs for their people.

Here is a list of jobs offered to aboriginal and regional people involving farms and abattois.
IT people.
office staff,
health,
cleaners,
electrians,
plumbers
packing, storeage ,
drivers,
vets
Drs,
Slaughter men
Boneing room men
tanniers
Tourism guides
Small countrry shops and staff

The countries importing Australian animals such as cattle shhep goat horeses camel live are interested in capturing the value adding and employment oportunities at their end. They employ stategic measures, in the form of tariff escalation and non tariff barriers, to encourage this.
this enables them to establish domestic manufacturing and processing industries, based on imports of raw input materials.
This furthermore acts as a disincentive for value adding in Australia
Given the enpurous benifits of value adding both the Australian ecomomy and to the Australian community, the economics of the live animal trade deserves both Government and industry Attention

And I left one for you Celivia...

Cilivia
The church does speak out about gays and gay marriages all the time.

They also speak about many issues.

They are most certainly involved in politics and have been for a long time. Maybe Steve fielding coming out is a good thing.[ who knows]

The point is they do not speak out about Animal cruelty at all.
It isnt even on their agenda.
its not considered a issue of importance.
That i got from the horses mouth.

I also feel there is a great difference between preaching about gay marriages and standing up against blatent barbaric cruelty.
Which is everybodys job.

The fact that they all get on the anti abortion forum preaching about some thing less than a grain of rice while living feeling animals suffer beyond belief is truely sickening.

Celivia, your posts once again highlighted to me, the so called
city-country gap. You are shocked by sheep, tied by the legs,
popped into the boot of a car. Rest assured, it happens all over
country Australia! Shearing teams want meat, thats how they take
their meat home. Most farmers move individual sheep around their
farms that way. Tie their legs up, on the back of the ute for a while, etc etc. Sheep are not your pet poodle dear :)

Wendy clearly does not understand market economics, introduced to
Australia by Keating and continued up to today. Abattoirs are built
where they are most cost effective, its up to the owners of scarce
capital to decide where that is. If they get it wrong, they go broke
and lose their capital.

Aboriginals, along with anyone else, are free to apply for the many
jobs in the meat and farming industries, widely advertised. Virtually
all offer training as part of the deal, for those interested, but
you cannot compel people.

Aborginal Affairs, it used to be Atsic, have billions of $ of taxpayers money to spend, for various employment schemes, business schemes etc, you name it, money is spent on it.

Don't confuse that with private enterprise. Wendy is suggesting
social engineering, that went out 20 years ago. Its not the job
of farmers to subsidise anyone. If it makes commercial sense
to ship cattle to Indonesia, rather then put up with unreasonbly
militant unions in the meat industry, so be it! As long as those
cattle are transported humanely, there is not an issue.

Australian Govts are free to drop the many taxes and charges that
they impose on the meat processing industry, from payroll taxes
onwards. They haven't done that, so clearly they don't really
care about local processing or keeping it local

Wendy ..yes I do still want to join PALE..

." Rest assured, it happens all over
country Australia! Shearing teams want meat, thats how they take
their meat home."> A GOOD POINT YABBY AND WHY WE NEED TO CHANGE IT"

"its up to the. owners of scarce ">IF ALL THE ANIMALS ARE GONE THEY HAVE TO CLOSE

"you cannot compel people."> WELL ACTUALLY PEOPLE HAVE! TO WORK>

" Wendy is suggesting
social engineering, that went out 20 years ago."> BULL NOBODY HAS GONE DIRECT TO LIVE IMPORTING TO INTRODUCE THEM TO THE FARMER SUPPLYING HIS LIVE ANIMALS AND SUGGESTED THEY UNITE. "Its not the job
of farmers to subsidise anyone."> fARMERS ARE SUBBED BY TAX PAYERS> ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

" If it makes commercial sense
to ship cattle to Indonesia,"> IT MAKES MORE SENSE FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR FARMS HERE> THEY WANT TO TAKE HER ANYWAY AND THEY LOVE THE FREE GREEN LEAN FREE RANGE FARM IDEA> rather then put up with unreasonbly
"militant unions in the meat industry, so be it!" NO NOT SO BE IT
FOR ONCE YOU ARE MAKING SENSE> THE UNIONS ARE TO BLAME ALWAYS WERE!

"Australian Govts are free to drop the many taxes and charges that
they impose on the meat processing industry, from payroll taxes
onwards. They haven't done that, so clearly they don't really
care about local processing or keeping it local."

OH MY GOD YABBY FOR ONCE YOU POST THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH> OK WELL THEY HAVE TO DROP SOME TAXES AND WE WILL MAKE THEM!
Yabby
Trouble is Beazly will never be any good while he has Jack Lake as an adviser. We are better off with Simmon. OR John Howard wake up!

And yabby if we Slaughter Here and send Carcuss that makes everybody happy if Australians dont want to work then doesnt it.

I am not stupid enough to compete with overeas wages and anyway maylasia sees itself as the hub of Halal working through jAKIM through to middle East.
that fine.

ozgirl
little buddy
Sorry I am not ignoring you. I get carried away with your mate. yes we would love you onboard[pardon the pun] Seriously we want you to join. Please let me know the best way to contact you/ Or contact us through clicking onto join pale on this link and it brings up the email ok
http://www.livexports.com/.

In the mean time if you can think of what type of thing you would like to be involved in would be good.

We require somebody to try to raise funds for our TV adds regarding Churches. We require Rally organiser. Somebody to help put our Free Range web page together. Its started but!

We have started the first domestic V team working together with RSPCA QLD. Often women wont leave home because they worry for pets. Perhaps that might interest you given your uni study.

We share the same pashion to improve conditions for aboriginal people so you may like to help with Halal global All Kind meats.

Whatever you would like to do we would be happy to have you as a member.

hope to hear from you soon.
Please dont forget to prepair Yabby For his Cruise.

Celivia..youve done an amazing job with this forum..well organised..very well considered and the dedication is a credit to you.

I think we should make time to express more appreciation to pple so that they know they how hard theyre efforts reward so many.

Thank you Celivia..fom Serita.:)

That is so nice of you to say, OZGIRL! Thank you ;)

Every single person without exception who contributed to this discussion, as I said before, has added something valuable!

It is often the case that the most heated discussions cause opinions to become very strongly expressed.

This is where I often appreciate the different viewpoints especially where there is real communication.

Wendy
"The fact that they all get on the anti abortion forum preaching about some thing less than a grain of rice while living feeling animals suffer beyond belief is truely sickening."
Thanks Wendy this is an example to use to show Yabby the other side of his view.

Yabby,
you expressed your opinion about Wendy's uterus and church's involvement in animal welfare.
I have showed my opinion, others have shown theirs, and I tried to look at it from your point of view- just for the discussion's sake (not because I agree).

Now we more or less looked at it from both angles as I briefly addressed and Wendy highlighted the opposite side of your view, can you understand why we find it necessary for the church to be involved in animal welfare, even if you don't agree?

fARMERS ARE SUBBED BY TAX PAYERS> ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

I,m still waiting for my cheque then!

Ozgirl
little buddy
You have just restored my faith in human nature.
Tonight I would like to talk to the farmers.
I have been working on our new web page listing all the Free Range farmers.
Let me simply say that the Free Range farmers must find a platform.

They must speak out against intensive farming and extreme animal welfare groups.

You must have the courage of your convictions.

Celivia, Scout, Robert, Antje, Taryn ,Benny Michael and others including myself have offered to support you.

Now you can listen to Yabby if you like.

You can not have it both ways. We have also been offered the assistance from Michael which is not to be sneezed at.

There are some farmers who want to have a shilling each way.

They are actually frightend to be seen working with a Animal Group.

Thats a serious mistake. Our people are just a concerned bunch who want to see a better deal for the farmers doing to right thing and! the Animals.

You cant expect Ciliva Scout and all the others to work to help you if you wont help us help you.

This forum has been around long enough to have reached the bush telegraph of Free Range Farmers.

I was speaking with a cattle Free Range Farmer earlier this evening
who told me he used to live export.

He said when he actually went there and saw the way our cattle are treated he stopped that day.

He now runs on six thousand Acers and will only send them locally for slaughter.

Thats very good to hear. I just hope he will go one step further and speak out as a live exporter as to what he saw.

We have to stand together and cop any bullying from the industry if we are going to make a difference.

Otherwise yabby is right. We will all be waisting our time.

You can start by publicly joining this Support Free range Group.

If you cant support the people who are supporting you I am going on a long overdue five year lunch.

Celivia, nobody has attacked the Catholic Church about its role
in politics more then I have, including in its political involvement
in the abortion debate.

My point is a purely philosphical one of consistency, anything
else is simply short term expediencey to suit your agenda.

I repeat. I believe that the role of the churches in a secular
democracy, should be to preach to their flocks and no more.

Religion should simply be a lifestyle choice, not enforced by the
state, because of religious politics.

As I am against the churches getting involved in politics on
any issue, I have to be consistent in my beliefs.

If you accept that the churches should become politically involved
in the animal welfare issue, why do you think they should be denied
political involvement in the abortion issue?

pig farmer.

Where do you think the drought grants come from?
Of course! there are many more lerks and perks within the other side of the industry that your farm would not be given.
for Eg You pay your fees but get nothing back. Places such as Amanda vanstones etc do get it back because WE pay for things like the new pork adds. The funds are made up of half from the industry and half from the public purse.

Now the Pork board the MLA , Cattlemans ass and all the others SHOULD be putting half into marketing Free Range and half into intensive iF THEY SUPPORT ANIMAL CRUELTY.

However the last time I checked there was stuff all marketing done for good farmers such as yourselves.
Thats totally unfair.
Free range Farmers support groups and working together with the public but form a free Range Group First.

That is what is required.

To a small degree only I agree with a past comment made by Yabby.

He said it was up to the smaller farmers to get together and market their products and sell themselves.

Sitting back complaining wont do it.

Working together with our organisation will.

Tell you why pig farmer we are the fIRST to stand up for farmers like you against the extreme Animal Welfare lot that tell the public not to eat ,meat.
However we need your open support as we have tried to support Free Range Farmers.
We can help make the money spent on levies and taxes fair.

We cant do it without the farmers coming out from the coral however.

You have to stand up and shout. I am a Free Range Farmer and I want a Fair Go. Talk to the public "publicly" and do not be intimated.
There are people only too! happy tostand up for you guys and from there things will get bigger and the Free Range Group will get stronger .
The tax money from the public be handed out fairer.

Stand up Wendy? How much more 'stand up' can actually running a free range farm be? I'm not just talking about it, Im doing it. Along with my own website plus another neutral site were other farmers can be promoted. Again, it is a reality, not talk. Its neutral because a lot of people run for the hills if they think animal activists are involved or they feel they have to conform to one persons ideals. You are just annoyed because i wouldnt hand it over for pale to take control.

You are also annoyed because I said I hadnt yet seen any of your work. It was a fair comment, not a put down. You quoted a submission for share farming in 2003. Yabby is so right. I dont want to 'share' all my hard work and capital input with a stanger from overseas.

Stop telling people what they HAVE to do, and listen a little to what they have to say without making it so personal. I think we all picked up on the last posts were aimed at me, I was the only one not on your list!

ABC
" NEWS RELEASE"



Bush Telegraph


Rural Programs


Rural News
Bush Telegraph

Free range pigs -
Free range chook farms are now commonplace in Australia, but it's not every day that you come across a free range pig farm! Reporter Melanie Sim visits Bernard Murray on his farm at Strathmerton, near Cobram, on the Murray River to see his operation first hand. She arrives just in time to see a sow give birth to some 14 piglets in a special farrowing hut in the open paddock. The huts give the sows (and the newborn piglets) protection from crows and foxes. Bernard switched to a free range operation several years ago after his intensive piggery was hit by disease. He says he and the pigs enjoy the freedom that a free range operation offers.

Pig Farmer

No your wrong I was actually speaking to the Journo at the bush telegraph.
I was following up on a conversation we had just! had re story above.
The comment was NOT aimed at you but all farmers.

I dont know why you think I am trying to steal your business but let me put you straight.

We are not an extreme group as you should know by now.


We had a meeting with familly first Steve Fieling it was of great interest to me.

My comments are directed to everybody.

If your not interested to expand your Free Range piggerys so be it .
Yes you are doing it and I would have liked to use you as a role model but of course! you dont HAVE TO HELP.

I think its pretty clear we put a great deal of time into live exports as well.

The whole co joint venture is to put some funds back into Australia building or updating abattoirs for ALL animals

Somebody has to actually come up with a lot of money and its not! going to be the Government or the farmers.

To bi- pass the middle man is the way to go.

Wendy, that article is over 12 months old.
Who said anything about stealing my business? I am concerned however that your knee jerk reactions could damage it. Not only have you posted my details to a public forum, (without my knowledge) I have learned that you have forwarded a private email to other parties. Just great for business! You are discrediting me without even giving it a thought. You take snippets of information (any source will do) and run with it. Scary stuff. Eg Lastest pork ads – were in the planning 12 months ago well before the Amanda Vanstone thing. You give APL too much credit.

We do not receive a cent from the government. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get drought relief? Another thing you are forgetting – farmers are taxpayers too, stop talking like we are leaches. How do you earn a living Wendy?

I cannot shout any louder that I am a free range farmer.I am doing all I can to balance my livelihood with animal welfare. Do a search on the words free range, you will find me on the first page of any search engine. You can afford to make all the noise you want and draw attention to your organization (good or bad) and it will just serve to give you publicity. For farmers that align with you – potentially disasterous. You proudly tell me how many people hate you, how many departments wont speak to you and the death threats you get ?? Is this supposed to be a good thing?

You want help but with what? I cant find any free range campaigns you are involved with – just talk.
You voice your opinion here loud and clear but look out anyone that dares question anything you say. You expect us to follow you blindly? It was heartening to see that you actually read my last post though, I know you generally dont have the time.

Pig Farmer


The email you speak of was posted by one of our ladies was only one! of many received.

I have apoligised that your details came up and spoken with the lady . What else can I do.
My knee jerk actions as you call it and my company in conjunction with RSPCAQLD and AFIC have started to address and support Free Range farmers.

You have come along only since this forum. Some of the bigger boys play hard ball , yeh you get that.

I am sure you could do a very good job supporting Free Range Farmers.
What does concern me however are your promises to me that you certainly wont! support! this Free Range Farmer or that one that you know and have had some sort of fall out with.

We cant CANT Pick and Choose and we WONT.
Every Free Range Farmer Will be the same.

We would never put you up on our Support Free Range Farmers web page without your! consent.

At no time have I said the authoritys will not meet with us.

Quite the opposite. I told you we had a letter From John Howard and The Federal Minister for Ag basically saying the poroposal was "interesting in its consept and more details please.

Also the interest of the Premier of QLD and held meetings.

Its a big job and I am not ashamed to say we need others involved.

Youput something together for Free Range pig Farming if you like and send it off to the Ministers office like we have.

Just remember however to open more Free Range pig farms takes money.

The Farmers cant afford it and The Government certainly wont pay.

So despite your belief we are doing nothing! when you are ready please email my office for a list of overseas companies that are interested to buy direct from Free Range Farmers AND put in some funds to expand them.

There are no charges for these services to any farmers.

I hope in some way that helps down the track

I had waited for you to do the right thing and have that post removed. You haven't, so I can only assume you use people to further your own agenda.

You dont get it wendy, farms are also family homes. No one is going to go into a partnership with strangers from overseas and risk that. So now you are saying you have buyers interested in free range pork? crap! [Deleted] You are so out of touch with what is happening in free range farming.

What a lame excuse for posting my private email 'someone else did it, it wasnt me' it had your name on it, you are responsible. You cannot be trusted. You just thought I wouldnt see it. You get more scary all the time. Its not the first time you have said you didnt write the post when called on it. How unprofessional! You are are danger to our business and I would thank you to leave promoting free range to the professionals. (see post on other thread)

Celivia, “Oh ok Alchemist, I got that wrong for jumping to the conclusion that you're an atheist (you just didn't sound like you believed in any God).”

I don't believe in any god, atheists believe in nothing. I believe in reality and the change associated with it, plus equality of life, not abuse and enslavement. You don't need a god to believe that, just observation and a brain.

In this country, it takes more than an acre to keep a food animal per year, according to the terrain. That one animal will feed a family of 4 for 3 months, plus you have to grow other food. So each year you need at least 10 animals at different stages of growth to support the family, requiring more than 20 acres per family for meat. You can grow all your food for 4 on less than half an acre per year, you can crop as well. Animals, 20acres 4 people. Grown food, 20 acres 120 people, which is logical. Or feed lot them and use more land to provide food for them. Sounds like lose lose to me, typically unevolved thinking.

Because the areas you intent exporting to are barren or have failing environments and because Australia is barren and has failing grazing land, wouldn't it make more sense to utilise food only taking up a small amount of land, than increasing the amount of environmental destruction by providing food that's taxing the land.

Nah this is all about Wendy's religion and money. All ready the dissent is intruding as the monotheists try to take over and push their agenda. You have to be right don't you Wendy, how about providing some verifiable evidence for all you claim. But being ethical and caring isn't a part of your religious economic agenda is it.

The church will become involved, for power and money, No other reason, everything they do is designed for money and power, not the welfare of animals or humans for that matter. You may find the churches have money invested in the present system already.

Ozgirl?

little buddy I am still here. When ever your ready to join..>


http://www.livexports.com/

Cilivia I promise to post the list of Churches[that I know of] who have become involved in Animal Welfare.
Yabby I suppose you have a point about churches being involved politically In abortion.

Yeh I could deal with that to be honest if thats what it would take to trade off.
After all you do have a political if not moral point to make I guess.


Alchemist My political Church Agenda? Ah.

I dont have a relgious agenda . I would have thought that much was clear. Interesting point you raise about Churches. Apart from Land and companies I dont think we will get that lucky. Still an X priest would know more than me. Thanks for the tip.
Pig Farmer.
I do wish you would use your name. I seem to recall Yabby saying the pork board were calling for Advisors. There you go that should be right up your alley. Good Luck

As you asked so nicely for the reply to your email from Animals Australia to be taken off the forum I will see what I can Do.

Just so long as this time you have madeup your mind because when I called you after your comment you said No its fine.

If you read your posts back clearly you have no problem with it until you became angry because you thought I was ignoring your posts. I think its fantasic that Voiceless are now supporting Free Range. Slowly, very slowly groups are starting to realise its not enough. They are starting to see that yes Free Range is The Way To Go. In answer to you question yes we do have overseas companies wanting Free Range Products.

Yabby could you possibly post that article requesting advisers for the pork board if you still have it please?

Wendy, how did you get in contact with me? Thru the links to my websites posted on this forum. is there anyone who doesnt know that?

You have been exposed as a liar. I joined this forum after discovering your betrayal to find out exactly what your organisation (loose term) was about and what you stood for. Its about wendy, wendy and then more of wendy. Objectives - discredit all other animal welfare groups who are actually doing good work.

How does that saying go ...you can catch more flies with honey ...

Yabby,

Re: your last post (16th September).
I think that you are right. This has always been my view as well- until recently.
I think that lately, in the heat of my frustration and concern about animal cruelty, I twisted my reasoning around and I admit this was mostly to suit my agenda.

I am feeling all untwisted again- I too am totally against churches getting involved in politics otherwise, and it would indeed be inconsistent to make an exception for animal welfare, however urgent this issue is.

So my view is that I am concerned that church leaders generally do not preach to their members about animal cruelty and I do criticise them for this, but I am refraining from asking them to become politically involved.

Phew, feeling much better now- I struggled a lot with my own twisted reasoning ;)

This means that I am still supporting contacting church leaders to ask them to pay some attention to the issues of animal cruelty, because they generally (with some exceptions) HAVE turned their backs on animal cruelty, but I’m not supporting contacting church leaders to pressure them into becoming politically involved.
Thanks Yabby, you were clear in your explanation and have helped me sort this out!

Now a genreal request.
Not wanting to be nasty, but because this thread is so long already, I am asking everyone to stick as much to the original topic as possible- if there are general issues about animal welfare then there is still Scout’s Animal Welfare thread.

New people reading this thread will be totally confused if the threads are mixed up- and I think it also may lead to communication problems- when one reads only one of the animal threads and not the other one won’t know what we’re talking about.

I do understand that it is tempting to take your discussions here when you’ve run out of postings on the Animal Welfare thread- but could you all please, pretty please try? I am sometimes guilty of doing this myself too, so I'm also speaking to myself!
Many thanks!

Thanks Celivia for your last post. I know I have become confused at the line between church and state.

I agree with Yabby, yourself and Alchemist that there needs to be a clear distinction between church and state.

That is why I am upset at the current fed government which is clearly heavily influenced by a particular religion.

Therefore, we should not expect the church to become politically involved with any issue; be it abortion, animal welfare, family law or IR reform - just to name a few.

Perhaps we should look at the bigger picture; the environment is what feeds and sustains us all. The church doesn't have to be considered 'political' by preaching to its flock to behave humanely and to live sustainably in this world. Perhaps that is the message we need to get out.

There is another general discussion thread regarding the infiltration of religion into politics - perhaps that is the better place for discussion of the comments I have made previously.

Yes, on reflection the church has no place in animal activism anymore than it does in family planning.

'We are all in this together.'

;-)

Celivia, Scout nicely said. It's better if the churches use their influence within their congregations rather than trying to be powers outside.

For the record that's part of what I was trying to say in the post that seemed to upset Wendy when I said

"I suspect that he see's the prime role of the church is to join together to worship their god and to provide teaching about their faith. From there it would be up to each individual believer to live out that faith based on their understanding of it. For some that will mean involvement in differing causes (Graham and his work here) and for others it will mean differeing things. Safer for the rest of us than those who try to use the church to push their own agenda's."

R0bert

everybody

Would you agree the Church and Church Leaders have involved themselves in everything and anything politically.

As there is clear evidence it would not be reasonsibly then to comment on their lack of interest in the Animal Welfare.?

60 minutes live exports reports been a top political issue.

If you read the lords words they are to preach and lead the way in regards to such things as cruelty.

So "without politics" its very much their calling on their part.
.
It even goes on to Say About The Good Shepard who would lay down his life for his flock.

Any decent person would have some interest in stoping cruelty to animals. I feel it is more the Churches job.

If as as yabby pointed out "Well Wendy Then they should have a say about abortion as well "I guess Yabbys also correct.

As they do have a lot to say about abortion then it is only fair they contribute to animal Welfare.

Clearly this is not going to change to votes. So I guess we have nothing to fear but much to gain by the change.

I think Yabby has raised a good point indeed and as I said To Cilivia its certainly not going to work against animal welfare but much more likely in the favour of Animal Welfare.

I make no bones and never have done that I feel personally its the business of a Dr and his client what she does the the other.

However to put it up like that on a see through screen its crystal clear to me.

Yabby in this case and yourself too Robert are correct asw I raised it again to Cilivia.

Both issues should be given the same time by the Church

So yup we allow the Churches to get in on the abortion issue.

Actually that would be great because then the Churches would probably involve their members much more in regards to all issues and not just abortion.

The Church Does Have A roll to play in politics so lets not keep them behind the Vaile.

Wendy, I agree that many churches have involved themselves in politics. It is also fair to ask of those which do so why their silence on this issue.

My preference is for them to butt out in an official capacity, it creates in my view a conflict of interest when we have government ministers who may consider themselves to be under a higher authority than their oaths to this country. That will happen to some extent for any person. There are things I would not do regardless of what call my country placed on me. I hope that the situation is eased when the church limits it's public pronouncements on secular issues.

There are other reasons why I'd prefer the curches officially to not involve themselves in politics, one of which is that on many of the issues they have involved themselves in they don't speak for all of their congregations. From my former experience church membership includes people with a wide range of views.

Rather I'd prefer them to butt out and leave it to individual christains to work as they consider appropriate.

R0bert

RObert, it somehow didn't 'click' with me what you had said in your earlier post- reading over it again it is clear.
You meant all along what I said in my previous post.

Wendy, yes this was clearly my reasoning too, that it is unfair of the church to involve themselves politically with the other issues and neglect animal welfare.

But really, if I don't like the church's involvement in some issues I want to be consistent in saying they should stay out of politics ALTOGETHER. They can do enough (if they cared) good work by preaching and charity for the animals.
Churches still should be criticised for their lack of interest about animal issues.

The other point RObert makes is also valid- they don't speak for all of their congregations. This will cause internal disagreements as well.

I say let's ask churches to think of our Australian animals by preaching, not by entering politics- I'm with Scout that they should preach to their flock to behave humanely.

Even if they don't care for the environment (coz the world will end anyway) wouldn't it be good for the human soul not to be a destructive, abusing, cruel human being? Caring for others including animals might be the thing that will save the soul!

Agreement's bursting out all-over. I wasn't saying much more than this. And I don't have a problem if housewives get involved, even if they're not Christian (or if they are as well)! :-) But I don't want to provoke Yabby either.

Pigfarmer(sept 18th) I think it is very strong language indeed to brand someone a liar..How dare you speak to someone like that..

Language such as that is slanderous and totally ungentlemen like..
One of the truky genuine person on here is Wendy..

You ought to be ashamed.

Better get back to your starving pigs..you spend so much time on here fighting with ladies ill bet they could do with a bit of grub by now..ladies always win in the end you know.:)

Ozgirl - what a silly little girl you are.

Ladies will always win? Whatever does that mean?

Ozgirl and Pigfarmer, can we keep the level of anger down a bit?

[Deleted. I asked this poster not to continue the argument on.]

Well I think the Church Leaders have a duty of care to all living creatures man women animals cows dogs cats birds whatever. We are all part of this earth . Why should they comment on everything other than animal welfare. I dont want to provoke Yabby either but I am not tippy toeing around him. Hes shown that he is at least consist in his thoughts of towards animal cruelty.["whats 38 thousand dead sheep from stress on boats' For eg
If the whole of Australia had every telephone line jammed for weeks
over that ship, but nt one Church spoke out well?
I now know that
was just one of the many that was actually reported on umm.
What is the reason for such silence when they speak out about everything else.
I dont agree with the line its not their business. Its everybodys responsibility from Christians to Muslims to whatever.

huh.
What a cop out. Isnt it because they dont want to go against the grain of the Government.
Whats the problem with standing up for animals if you are a church Leader is the question.

They just cant ignore the fact that cruelty to animals exists....
when we read and hear about it all the time..
Whats their problem?

Cilivia

I know this is your forum but I cant just agree with you because of that. What do you mean Church leaders should do nothing but preach, pray
You headed this forum yourself.
Church Leaders Where are ewes.? I think they need to stop being such hypocrites. You say preach pray. I think the animals might prefer we act. As for peoples reputations in tact I think their lack of committment to Animal Welfare is a disgrace.

RSPCA President Dr Hugh Wirths addressed a national press conference only a few weeks ago about this issue. I think it was posted.
I have been asked to take over the listing of the few good Churches that was promised to you.
I will try to get it up in the next few weeks.
I have already started to contact some of the leaders and asked them for a letter to go onto this forum along with why they are the few speaking out.

I am more than happy to get as much of the Free Range web page completed and ask those Churches To preach that to their flock as well.
I think this is a good forum and the topic has to be clearly aired.

Churches are up to their necks in politics. George Bush wins his elections on them and John Howard is very aware of the Church vote. So why not include animal welfare. Even if Churches were not already involved they still as people and leaders have a darn right to speak out.
Taryn congratulations. May I say that I will do my best to use the information I have to educate the Churches to their responsibilities.
I do not wish my integrity challenged and your correct as to what you said.

Myself I am very happy to contiune to do as much as I can to make people think about why the churches are so silent regarding the barbaric treament of animals on both live exports and intensive farming.

church Leaders Why So Silent about Animal Cruelty Have have plenty to say about everything else,

"["whats 38 thousand dead sheep from stress on boats' For eg"

Taryn, thats not actually what I said, but as you don't seem to
have understood the arguments made about sheep deaths on a boat,
I will explain it to you as nicely as possible :)

So let me explain it this way: Around 250'000 people a year
die in Australia, from all sorts of causes. People live to
be about 70, for sake of the argument. If you put Aussies
on a luxury liner with all mod cons, there will still be
deaths on board. Fact is, no matter what your species, if you
risk living, you risk dying.

Sheep live to about 5-6 years, so when you put 4 million
on boats, some of them are going to die from various causes.
Nobody has shown that stress is what kills sheep on a ship.
So 38k out of 4 million sheep, or less then 1%, is not something
incredibly bad, given that 100'000 sheep per week die in
Australian paddocks.

But lets just look at the stress argument. Sheep attacked by
wild dogs and ripped to bits, dying slowly, sheep attacked by
blowflies and dying over days, whilst thousands of maggots
bury into their bodies, that is real stress, happening here
and now every day! Its also suffering on a mass scale.

Now compare that to a floating feedlot, where animals are fed,
watered, have shelter, have a whole host of regulations designed
to be concerned about their welfare, are even gaining weight,
99% of them doing just fine, that is no more stressful then you
and I face every day in our lives, when we board a bus or
just live in this world. Low level stress is part of natural
living, for whatever species.

Antje,
This is everybody's forum and people don't have to agree with me just because I started the discussion. You're very welcome to express your opinion. Anyway I did agree that you could take over this forum if you wanted to- anytime! Perhaps you will be better at overviewing this discussion than I am right now. I'm willing to hand it over to you, and I'll just be a contributor. Do you want to?

Well yes, I admitted that I have fallen back on my former believe as I explained that I want to be consistent in saying that religion has no place in politics at all.
I am pro secular state; I always have been in the past but lately I twisted around my reasoning to fit my agenda and I admit this was wrong. Yabby merely reminded me of my twisted reasoning. (I think my reasoning took a little holiday on a cruise, lol).

I am normally not stuck in my opinions for the sake of being right. Sometimes people's opinions change through discussing things with others- looking at things from different angles or gaining more information about something.

If I do not want religions to interfere in certain matters like gay or women's issues I cannot expect them to interfere in matters that suit my agenda, in this case animal welfare.

They do have to speak out though, I do not mean that they should not care about it and as I said (please read what I said in a previous post) they should speak out to their flock, they can voice their opinion openly, but should really stay out of politics altogether.

The title: "Church leaders turn their backs on animal cruelty" does not change- leaders are supposed to preach to their flock to do something about animal cruelty.

Cilivia.

No its ok. You dont have to hand your forum over to me just because I pointed out you seemed to be different.

Thank You very much indeed for the offer. I am flattered.
People read all the comments.

You made some very worth while points.
If you ever get sick of the forum or too busy I would certainly take it over.
This issue is huge so this forum should not be closed.

To change your mind after reading comments I should think might be the point of these forums.

So would you say it would be reasonable then for animal welfare to be taught for eg in bible classes? Is this the type of role you mean?

Did you see the post that was put up about the quite recent press conference for eg put out by Dr Hugh Wirth, President of RSPCA.?

He dedicated the whole of his press release on that particular subject.

He spoke of the problem in Australia regarding animal welfare and the lack of guidence in the past from Churches towards animal welfare.
To whom then do you think he was speaking?

Wonder why the president of the RSPCA asked them to help the animals.

Do you think the president of the RSPCA has done the wrong thing speaking of the problem of animal cruelty to and connecting it to our Christian value?

I thought he was spot on .

I might add he also made it very clear that the general public had a big role to play as well.

I guess as RSPCA President hes just doing the best he can by pointing out that until the Church Changes its attitude toward their reponsibilty toward Gods creatures great and small they will continue to suffer.
At least thats how I read it.
I will [post it again so every body can see.]

As for Yabby we have all seen his support for the cruel live export trade so I as they say up here , I am leaning.

Dont you worry about that

"This issue is huge so this forum should not be closed."
I agree, Antje, I won't close it as it is a topic that needs to be discussed.

"So would you say it would be reasonable then for animal welfare to be taught for eg in bible classes? Is this the type of role you mean?"
Yes, Antje that would be one great thing religions need to consider.
Could people who know more about it than I do (since I had a non-religious upbringing) give some ideas of how religions could play a specific role without getting involved in politics? Three things I can think of:

* Like Antje suggested already, discussing animal welfare in bible classes.
* Preaching in church to the flocks about animal welfare.
* Fundraising- I think that church members could be good at that since their involvement with charity. Charity is always based on helping people, which is a good thing, but there should also be a place in their charity work to support animal issues.

Any other suggestions?

"Did you see the post that was put up about the quite recent press conference for eg put out by Dr Hugh Wirth, President of RSPCA.?"
No, could you place the link here, I haven't been able to find it. I am very interested in reading it.

"Do you think the president of the RSPCA has done the wrong thing speaking of the problem of animal cruelty to and connecting it to our Christian value?"
No, I think this is a great thing. I think Animal Welfare should be an Australian value, and since Christians are also Australians, they should adopt this value like everyone else.

Yabby
Well now where is your new girlfriend?
Yabby and mrs pig , Gee and shes going with you now to the middle east as well.I thought they treated sheep badly on those boats but a pork Wow.
Seriously Yabby before I answer your post, which I thank you for I ask you nicely ass I can not to get personal. If you dont like my answers tough.In return I will be as polite as possible to you ok.
Please dont call me stupid city slicker or any of the things.

Remember somebody has to arrange your trip yet as Ozgirl and wendy are not able to right now. The good thing is I can still get advise from them to ensure its a "very special" trip indeed.


Now you rubbish about people who die on luxury liners and compairing it with what those poor sheep cattle camels goats and many more go through is an insult to my intellergence so i wont even bother with that.

For the reast I think its best to answer you with written numbers and facts put out by the RSPCA National Office.office.
That would be the People in charge of Animal Welfare Welfare In Australia.
Would that be fair to say Yabby that they might be informed?or do you know more than the RSPCA National President. ?
May I refer everybody to three full google pages none less as to what the RSPCA say about live exports. I happen to agree with them Yabby. There is my answer to you questions.>
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=rspca+hugh+wirth+live+exports+shame+&spell=1

Now apart from that I see no reason to try to stop any venture that any person is working towards.
I have read all the posts and looked at all the web pages and yes I am still learning. I like the look of this link with land farms and the people who are buying the meat from overeas. I think it could be good for this country.

Taryn, alot of that stuff from Hugh is old stuff, from years ago.

In 2005 new standards were introduced, updated recently again and
they will continue to be upgraded. Lots has happened, old boats
canned, all sorts of stuff.

I have yet to see Hugh comment on the new standards, IIRC RSPCA
even had an input into them, when they were written.

Yes years ago there were various cowboys in the trade, that needed
fixing and that has been done. Now I could post you endless links
to the Nazi times and tell you how bad the Germans are. You would
have to admit that we have moved on since then. Don't you think
that if there is a problem with the live trade today, that
we should stick to information of today, not from years ago?