I think this debate has degenerated into the usual stereotyped viewpoints and avoids the very white elephant in the room - intolerance which is what I thought this topic was about.

Discussions about how we deal with intolerance are not a precursor to bringing back the White Australia Policy - I am not sure how that big jump was made.

Intolerance is a major issue not only reserved for some migrant groups as some might indicate, but by Australians whose families have been here for many generations. This is why discussions in relation to a Bill or Rights have become more popular of late - if intolerance did not exist I doubt the issue would have been raised in the public arena.

I am the product of immigrants to this country - I am not sure how some of you have made the interpretation that I am against mixing the cultures!

I tend to agree with Fractelle that the problem is global. My own view is closer to Ludwig's in regards to sustainable populations and it has nothing to do with multi-culturalism.

The truth is 'intolerance' is worse in some countries than in others. I have travelled in areas where women have to be careful in how the dress and how they consort in public - very different to the freedoms we take for granted in Australia. We can pretend it isn't so but where does that get us?

No-one has really come up with a solution - how do we deal with intolerance? Is legislation enough?

If we make this a blinkered culture versus culture debate then the issue is already dead in the water and we get stuck with semantics instead of solutions.

"No-one has really come up with a solution - how do we deal with intolerance? Is legislation enough?"

Pelican,

The forces shaping the world are so complex that there is no silver bullet solution that can be implemented. I agree with examinator that curbing our own country's excesses and gifting the surplus to other countries so they can live more fulfilling lives will be the eventual solution (of course you've got to get your timing right for all the targeted initiatives this strategy entails because, for example, if you just give your assets to your competitors, they will use it against you. Also, if you give aid to a country that isn't mature enough to use it properly, it will be squandered).

"I am the product of immigrants to this country - I am not sure how some of you have made the interpretation that I am against mixing the cultures!"

I'm not convinced about the rightness of "mixing the cultures". I personally believe in giving opportunities to people they wouldn't have had otherwise (which migration does), but often the "mixing the cultures" bit has to be diluting everyone's culture as different people rub up against each other, cause friction and thereby force everyone to own less of their culture so as not to cause the friction in future. This is always going to be at least a latent problem as long as we live in a multicultural society. That's another good reason for giving assistance to developing countries so that the people born there there do not have to migrate overseas in the first place.

pelican: << ...the very white elephant in the room >>

What an apposite mixing of metaphors!

Although Banjo's is a more honest than usual plea for a return to more ethnically discriminatory policies, the 'elephant in the room' with most of these debates about immigration is usually a thinly veiled appeal to the 'good old days' when Australia was supposedly monocultural, and its population predominantly 'white'.

One of the reasons that sensible population policies are so hard to debate in this country is that they inevitably attract the support of the White Australia mob - or vice versa, as in this thread. Little wonder political parties avoid such debates like the plague.

It's almost laughable when the closet bigots claim to have our 'cultural harmony' (i.e. homogeneity) at heart when they assert that Australians who don't share their Anglo heritage are somehow collectively 'intolerant'.

Individuals are intolerant, cultures aren't.

By all means exclude 'intolerant' individuals - indeed, I think we should deport and/or banish them, even if they happen to be born here. However, you'd need to work out some objective mechanism for identifying the blighters.

Pelican,
I expected personal attacks because some like CJM cannot debate an issue and cannot come up with any solutions to a problem. Some like Ginz and pericles think that anyone that raises issues about immigration is attacking muslims. Others like to keep their heads buried in the sand and deny there is a problem with ethnic violence and contempt for our society.

Antonios,
Firstly, I do not have any dislike for immigrants per say. The only ones I am concerned about are those that abuse our standards and are contemptous of the opportunities they get from being here. Of course the majority integrate and do their best to make a good and successfull life here. But that does not mean that we should totally excuse the behavour of those that do not.

You say we should give them time, and more time if necessary. OK that is fair and we do. But how much time do you think is appropriate?

We have been educating those that carry out FGM for at least 14 years and the incidence is rising. Some of those that endured FGM here are now having it done to their own daughters. We have some Croats and Serbs that are 2nd and 3rd generation and still they have cultural hatreds and fight at sporting events. Some resulting in shooting and vehicles destroyed. Some Lebanese muslims are also 2nd and 3rd generation and have nothing but contempt for our society.

So Antonios how much time is needed and what alien cultural things should we accept and do you see any that we should completely reject?

Continued:-

Continued

examinator,
You say if we ignore others problems they will come back to bite us.

I say, IF WE IGNORE THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE HERE, THEY WILL COME BACK TO BITE US.

That is what you are advocating, for us to ignore the issue. Are you happy to see the Tamils invade a home and beat and pour acid over others because of cultural hatred. Does it occur to you that the victims may be citizens and need protecting from such attacks. Does not this concer you? Does it not concern you that Little Aussie girls are being mutilated and there are forced marriages here. Do you condone the holding of cockfights?

I notice that while you are critical of my offered solutions to mitigate the problems you do not offer any other course of action.

You say I am simply looking to blame someone. Yes I blame our weak kneed politicians for allowing the situation to develope and not enforcing the laws we have. The only thing I am fearfull about is how we leave our community for our kids and their kids

CJ,
I agree contrary to some I am a realist 'the good old days' had just as much community disquiet only the barriers change names. People are indeed the problem. the "White Australia Brigade" and their ilk the exclusionists on the other side are just as guilty.
We need practical objective thinking.

Rob P
As usual you have raised an interesting twist the sending the saved excess to others didn't occur to me as such although it's worthy of deeper thought I'm going to ponder it. Also your warnings were appropriate and I almost agree with them all. The one that sticks is the possible (I assume financial) competitor quip. That is another issue entirely requiring different solution. Off the cuff I wonder if we shouldn't re-evaluate/modify our way of practicing Capitalism.

I was thinking that the Western world with 20% of the population uses a disproportion of resources WE are bleeding/consuming the world/planet..
Does development have to mean destruction/pollution or Capitalism have to mean crowding specific market places? etc. More in syc Ludwig (I think) with the Nth American Indian concept 'walk gently on the surface and take only what you need' (leave breeding stocks be more cautious of our life support system i.e. 'natures balance')
Do we really need another mine that will produce then send the price down etc. Consider the other uses of the capital.
This is no airy fairy notion it is simply a different direction of possible thought.
Lastly I have no intention of telling anyone who to marry.
And who said that any one culture is better than another. We can learn from them all and grow i.e. The Mayan culture is interesting but do we really want their dark side? Look at the Celtish culture hmm babies for the wolves and human sacrifice I know I don't want that.
Current cultures which one? which version? e.g. from which time and context.

Folks Change is inevitable. Evolution demands adaptability so why fight it.Choose the best and adapt.