For many years the Australian community has been tolerating the intolerant and, for reasons of our own well being, it is well past the time we put the safety of our citizens before some idealistic notion that all peoples can live happily together.

The following is a police media release regarding ethnic violence of just a few days past.

http://tinyurl.com/py5nmc

Frankly, we should not allow people to come here if we know they are of a group that will not integrate and holds deep seated hatreds for other groups that make up our diversified community. We should insist that those coming here understand that old hatreds must be left out of Aus and that we expect people to respect our laws and community standards.

The above incidents is only one of many where some groups have abused our hospitality by actively engaging in anti-social and criminal acts. Some have even shown utter disdain for our courts, police and what we consider reasonable behaviour.

There has been riots following and during sporting fixtures, Examples at soccer and the tennis. Riots and shooting at one venue giving people the ability to vote for an overseas election. Anti-social behaviour that lead to the community demonstration at Cronulla and the retaliation attacks on suburbs and people that followed. This is only a small sample of the abuse of our tolerance. There are others that disregard our laws by carrying out FGM on little girls, engage in forced marriages and the holding of cockfights and dogfights.

We must not allow the situation to continue to slide toward the shocking state of violence that European countries endure. We have no need to import social problems.

We owe it to our children to keep the community safe and cohesive.

That can only be acheived by keeping out those the will not abide by our standards.

Good thread Banjo

“For many years the Australian community has been tolerating the intolerant…”

Yep.

“We should insist that those coming here understand that old hatreds must be left out of Aus and that we expect people to respect our laws and community standards.”

Of course we should!

“We must not allow the situation to continue to slide toward the shocking state of violence that European countries endure. We have no need to import social problems.”

Surely the numerous examples in Europe of serious social upheaval resulting from immigration of the ‘wrong’ sorts of people are enough to make our government sit up and take notice and re-evaluate our immigration program forthwith.

“We owe it to our children to keep the community safe and cohesive.”

Absolutely.

.
We desperately need to reduce our immigration intake down to net zero in order to have any hope of living sustainably on this arid continent.

Net zero means an immigration intake equal to emigration, which would still be something in the order of 30 000 people per annum. If we did this, we wouldn’t have to worry about the sort of people that we allowed into this country, as the numbers would be so small, and with a vastly smaller intake we would presumably be much more selective about bringing in the ‘right’ sort of people.

An immigration intake of ~30 000 per annum should be composed predominantly (~25 000) of the most needy of refugees and ~4 990 of people with the most badly needed skills, and their families.

That leaves scant little room for importing ratbags!

Ask most people and they would agree with you, the last thing we need more of is social disharmony and escalated violence fuelled by ethnic hatreds.

However, how do you screen for attitude or willingness to integrate?

Immigrants will naturally tick any box that will allow them entry into the country of their choice. If you ban particular ethnic groups then you fall into the murky area of discrimination law and also preclude those from that group who are sincere in their desire for a new life free of those very ethnic hatreds.

It is a difficult one. One possibility is perhaps to have a probationary settling in period for new immigrants (as opposed to refugees). That is if you don't adhere to the laws in Australia you get sent back to your previous homeland. Not sure how that one would fly and who would be the judge especially if it meant a family would be split up. Perhaps if it was clearly indicated at the point of immigration maybe it might work. Perhaps we do need to be tougher.

The other thing is that a lot of ethnic tensions diffuse after one or two generations however the situation in Europe is disturbing. Particularly so in France where ghettos of mixed ethnic groups are at war and street violence has escalated. There are many problems with violence towards women in the minority cultures by some extremist males from a strong machismo culture.

In principle I agree. How long can you tolerate the intolerant before it makes a long term and irreversible impact on society as a whole?

We have to remember that migration from those less tolerant parts of the world is relatively new so there is no Western benchmark as to how it will play out.

Pt1:
I once was known for my tolerance of other nationalities, religions, colours and creeds. I can no longer tolerate those who will not tolerate me, and my choice of sexuality, religion, politics etc in the country of my birth.

The following article was received in email this morning, and it crystallises for me mny of the problems which we do not currently have (or do we?) but which we will have in the not too distant future. Selfishly, I suppose I can breathe a sigh of relief that I am unlikely to live to see its fruition.

Quote
In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark .
But in 1978 -even in Copenhagen, one didn't see Muslim immigrants.

The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time.

The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism. Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies - it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education.

It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets -all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite? By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - and its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious.
Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves.

blasted site won't let me post the rest of this, keeps giving me error reports, I'll try and complete later!

As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark 's liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted.
Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history. An article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they forecasted accurately that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported: 'Muslim immigrants.constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.'

'Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim.

Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.' 'Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.' 'Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem' 'Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark 's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.' It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel that Muslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws.

Pt3:
An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries and Canada .: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith have been murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for their lives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark , a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle out nearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden - before the Nazis could invade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa - who as a teenager had dreaded crossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupying Nazi soldiers - and I wonder what she would say today.

In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70 years - one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberal unfettered immigration.

Banjo I read the link, could not find anywhere where it mentioned what race was involved.

It was a shock coming to Australia and the way the people talk about the Lebonese. Having lived in Saudi Arabia about 10 years ago I came in to contact with lots of the different Arabs - except the ones from Israil.

The Lebonese were the darlings of the Arabs, the gentle ones. Their children all spoke English, French and Arabic. The Jordanian's; I found kind of harsh but not like the Iraqi Arabs. The Saudi Arabs; mostly quite happy having lots of money. Everyone of them I met hated Americans.

Most of them thought NZ was a state of Australia and that was okay cause they all really liked us.

What did you do to them? Did it change when you buddied up with the Americans?

Did they find themselves living somewhere that attacks their previous homes with their kin still living there?

I absolutely agree!...tolerating the intolerant has to stop!

Personally I have NEVER tolerated the intolerant;-not in my private life, nor on OLO.

Here WE go again: yet another thread that Muslims are responsible for all ills. WE need these threads on a regular basis don't WE?, so that we can vent our lungs/liver/spleen/and kidneys....against THEM.

Australia had no problems at all before THEY came. WE were such a nice tolerant White migrant settled country weren't WE? WE had the WhiteOz policy to protect us from THEM. Until THEY came, WE were a tolerant nation. No crime at all. WE even tolerated the 'Boongs'/the 'Chinks'/ the (I forget: what were WE calling the Italian migrants?).

So WE can enter THEIR countries to 'liberate' THEM;-decimate their infrastructure, and make a motsa by sending OUR contractors in to re build. But God forbid that THEY should want the life WE have.

And.. EXCUSE ME!!...how dare THEY dislike US. WE are the good guys.

I stress: there were NO problems AT ALL, until THEY came;-were there?
_____________________________

Another day; another server error.

Here we go again. Ring the bell "bring out your (not so dead) prejudices"
Folks the real basic problem isn't with immigrants per se at best the argument is myopic at worst it's simply devoid of anything that resembles rational problem solving.

Conflict between groups is endemic in the the raw end of human nature.
Dare I point out that lesser reasoning will seek out differences as a means of self confirmation against fear/selfishness/greed ad nausum. Be they race/religion/cultural/wealth/class etc.
The riots in NY at the turn of the C20th between Anglophiles/Irish wealthy/rich, the Carnegie Steel created violence.

In Aust my dad told stories of youth's were involved in wide scale suburb V suburb gang wars. Fitzroy in Melb was 'working class' and home to crime (Squizzy Taylor & gang notorious gangster were just one). The Catholic/Proddies saga, Reffos, Ities, Dagos, Wogs, Chinks, yellow peril, Wogs, Slaves all had/have their share of prejudice. Now irrational hysteria is responding to the over hyped Muslim threat. Again the intellectually lazy or inept believe the self serving leaders of prejudice lynch mobs the sensationalised media and conservative extremes.
PS Many good Aussies would have been worse off if it hadn't been for the Afghan (Muslim) Camel traders etc. The Asian pearl divers in Broom. Both non assimilated groups.

Even the prejudice between areas i.e. football teams and codes etc.
The wealth envy take over etc. The fights prejudices between private/public schools.

Stopping immigration or even tightening criteria will achieve none of the stated aims at least for the above reasons.

Ludwig's argument which is ZPG will fail if only because of international treaties etc.
The Biggest group of Non Aussies are Kiwis. Those of Maori extract also often bring their cultural chips on shoulders and aggressive biases.
Next, try and exclude the non Aussie cultured sports persons particularly footy players.(good luck)

People I have never seen an objective and factual or long lasting remotely convincing benefit coming from the attitude embodied in the headline question.

The reasoning is simplistic, naïve and emotionally prejudice.
Look for solutions not victims. Aussie culture is flawed too.

Nice dog-whistle, Banjo.

Interesting that some in our Community (dare I say from the left) only ever recognise racism, sexism and violence if it carried out by white males. They have been blinded for a long time by their own dogmas. Kind of like the environmentalist who often are the most violent when demonstrating for peace and harmony. Those killed by Muslims in the Iraq war is Bushes fault, those killed in Afghanistan under the Obama administration is the fault of ?

Amen, CJ.

I think Banjo must be missing Boaz.

Pelican - you just have to look at the UK, and a number of 'progressive European countries such as Holland and Belgium to realise there ARE examples of what can and does go wrong.

A pox on so called "discrimination", trotted out by every overly idealistic but completely unrealistic do-gooder in our already dysfunctional multicultural society.

We can do something now to stem the rot or do nothing and pay very dearly in the future.

I am the offspring of European migrants 2 generations back. We still practice some of the old customs and most of my parents generation still speak some of the old language - as do I and a few of my cousins. From the day my forebears feet touched Australian soil - that was their home, the land of fresh opportunity and a new loyalty to the English King. This attitude and that of like minded immigrants has helped make Australia the proud, strong prosperous Nation it is.

Now those values are being undermined by a small but dangerous minority who have little interest in 'integration' or even abiding by Australian law but instead are attacking everything the average Aussie holds dear, personal freedom, individual rights and secure lifestyle using our own misguided legislation.

“…how do you screen for attitude or willingness to integrate?”

As you say Pelican, with great difficulty.

But I don’t think we need to worry about that. The way forward is blindingly obvious to me. If we reduce our immigration intake down to net zero or thereabouts, we’ll essentially have the problem dealt with.

If we address the overall number of immigrants, we won’t have to worry too much about the very prickly issue of being highly selective based on religious, ethnic or social compatibility.

Of course we need to reduce immigration way down for environmental and sustainability reasons. But we also need to do this for reasons of preserving social harmony. The more out of whack our population becomes with our environment and life-supporting resource base, not least water, the more tensions are likely to manifest themselves between groups that are now living in relative harmony.

I think that we should double our refugee intake within a net zero immigration program. This intake should be those in the most urgent need of resettling irrespective of their religion or ethnicity.

But we would still be likely to have some issues with increased social disharmony if we do this. If there is a significant likelihood of this, then I’d suggest that our domestic peace should prevail and that we should modify our refugee intake accordingly.

Jewely
You confuse me! one time conservative and the other prograsive, one time good and the other not.
I agree with you.

Ludwig are you the old, known greeny Ludvig or you are a new one close to Banjo and other nationalists?

pelican
even you? Where did you see the intolerant, migrants are divided between their first and new country. When something very important or very tragic happened to their first country as civil war, deaths of relatives etc they react with the way they react. Do not you know that many migrants came from countries with big problems, bad personal experiences? Give them the time, more time if necessary.

Maximillion, you seem different I did not know that you worry so much from muslims!

runner, you do not have to write your name we can recognize you from your posts, Christian Taliban!

For me there is NO PROBLEM with migrants I was and I will be with them!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Sorry for delay in responding but have had some computer problems.

Ludwig, I agree that we should take note of the massive problems now encountered by European countries. I am also of the opinion that immigration should be reduced to net Zero, but that is a different debate. This is about stopping the importation of those groups of people that cannot or will not respect our society.

Max, You appear to know the situation in Denmark very well. As mentioned above, we are being fools if we disregard the European situation. Our children and their children will see the results of our apathy.

Pelican, You ask how we can screen for willingness to integrate. We can only go on our experiences with various groups. It is a cultural matter. For example, not all African and Middle Eastern people carry out FGM on their daughters. Dispite extensive education the incidence of FGM continues to rise. We can identify the groups and stop any further immigration here of those groups. Croats and Serbs continue to hate and fight over ancient issues. We simply say no more of you lot, we do not want you. What you do in your old countries is your affair, but here it is ours.

Jewelry, The police media release did mention Shi Lanka and other news items mentioned Tamils. I do not know How the Tamils differ from other Shi Lankans and I do not care. I know that behaviour is simply not acceptable. I suggest a close eye be kept and any similar instances should result in no more Tamils being allow entry.

Interesting that you note that the Lebanese in the Middle East have a good reputation. Not so here, Lebanese muslims here have a dreadfull reputation in anti-social behaviour. We do not seem to have the same problems with non muslim Lebanese or with muslims of other nationalities to same extent.

examinator, You do not see any problems at all. You are looking through rose coloured glasses.

"We have no need to import social problems.

We owe it to our children to keep the community safe and cohesive."

That can only be achieved by keeping out! those the will not abide by our standards.Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 21 May 2009 8:30:45 PM

Now that kicks the reality train right in the cabooze. Being Independent, while the world looses the plot, is good chess.

What a great thread.

P/S If you cant conform, piss off! you know my mother told me that.

EVO

Banjo,
Your instrument is a bit off key.
Who said there aren't problems? I didn't ....read the last sentence again it clearly acknowledged problems in the call for solutions.
All you are doing it finding someone else to blame so you don't have to do anything different.
Ludwig,
We agree there are too many people in Australia and the world. But ZPG won't work for all the reasons stated in previous conversations. How/Who is going to give up their 'rights' to children, families.

As for your idea that nill net immigration is going to aid community harmony is unsustainable history shows that humanity will simply divide on other grounds. Harmony won't just happen every one will have to work for it.
You simply push the idea here to further you argument for world ZPG but you still don't offer any plausible solution.

Runner,
Come on son get real, I often cite I am disgusted with violence regardless of origins. I just don't subscribe to the perspective that
that a small number of yobs who happen to be a particular race or variant form of a religion therefore all that race or religion are rotten too. I make the point that Some Aussies are yobs too but that doesn't mean all Aussies are yobs.
BTW Again! I am not responsible for your lack of knowledge read wider. I am neither a greenie nor from the left any more than you are from the Branch Davinians.


End I'm sick of this game baiting game .

“Ludwig are you the old, known greeny Ludvig or you are a new one close to Banjo and other nationalists?”

It’s the same old Ludwig here, Antonios – the Ludwig that has always been deeply concerned about ‘greeny’ things AND social cohesion. It wouldn’t make much sense to be concerned about sustainability and not about the maintenance of a strong social fabric and good quality of life, ay!

“I am also of the opinion that immigration should be reduced to net Zero, but that is a different debate.”

Banjo, I don’t think it is a different debate. As I said in my last post, we would hardly have to worry about stopping the importation of those groups of people that cannot or will not respect our society, if we reduce immigration numbers way down.

Those people who are concerned about Australia running into the same sorts of racial/ethnic/religious strife that we have seen in a number of European countries should stop turning a blind eye to the enormous importance of greatly reducing our total immigration intake.

“We agree there are too many people in Australia and the world. But ZPG won't work…”

Examinator, zero population growth will be achieved one way or the other. That is for certain. Whether it happens in Australia by way of good management or by way of catastrophe remains to be seen. Australia still has about the best chance of any country in the world of making it happen via good management, but of course there is no indication at the moment that this will happen.

Surely THE most important parameter of all is the maintenance of a decent quality of life. The size of our immigration intake, and to some extent it composition, is of the utmost concern in this regard.

Do you disagree with this? What is your counter-argument for striving to achieve sustainability and maintain good social cohesion?

“Jewely
You confuse me! one time conservative and the other prograsive, one time good and the other not. I agree with you.”

You are a honey Antonios you have stood out as a person who writes honestly without trying to harm another to win a debate. I am sorry to confuse and I know I over explain a lot of stuff.

“I suggest a close eye be kept and any similar instances should result in no more Tamils being allow entry.”

Banjo; The link you posted was bleating on about different crowds and violence, no races mentioned. I may have missed a link? Hubby had one at work (tiger), nice guy. The End. You don’t know how they differ but you sit there and judge they should not be here?

“Interesting that you note that the Lebanese in the Middle East have a good reputation. Not so here, Lebanese Muslims here have a dreadfull reputation in anti-social behaviour. We do not seem to have the same problems with non Muslim Lebanese or with muslims of other nationalities to same extent.”

Their culture was vastly different from mine but the Arab people were lovely and lovely to me and my children. One day I went to the American compound, and after establishing I did not have a bomb on me they requested I not wear the albiya (black robe) in the compound. I refused to take it off and got the filthiest looks the whole time I was there. Some of them looked a bit scared, the women wouldn’t talk to me.

But tell ya what, out in public and off my own compound I always covered everything (except my face) the American women didn’t they showed cleavage and everything – could spot the tarts from a mile away.

I am for a sustainable population - but this includes the world not just Australia.

We need to work towards peace and assist the poorest countries, this would reduce a lot of the hatred which feeds into the plans of extremists.

As for screening immigrants for 'quality' how does one do that? The most perfect family ever to exist may give birth to a ranting psychopath, besides if we start 'screening for quality' which is sounding more and more like implementing eugenics - shouldn't we start with ourselves? Is every single Australian born person the paragon of virtue?

I think not.

In helping other nations we would actually be helping ourselves - fewer people would need to flee oppressive regimes. Better educated populations would reduce themselves - fact is the better educated, the less children women have.

http://www.unicef.org/mdg/poverty.html

Australia is not an Island Fortress (as some apparently think) - we are part of this world and all the discriminatory policies (well meaning or not) will not stop violence and disagreement.

I'm white, 6th generation Australian and I would rather a plethora of Waleed Aly's than a single George Pell. (http://www.civicsandcitizenship.edu.au/cce/default.asp?id=15569)

We cannot exempt Australia from the rest of the world, we tried that with the White Australia Policy and by ignoring the original inhabitants of this country - didn't work then and certainly won't work now.

At last some one who understands my points thank you Fractelle.

Ludwig and I agree about the inevitability of ZPG IF we continue to seek quick/superficial and/or a magic bullet answers. As in Banjo's argument seeking to blame for our indifference/selfishness. All gain no effort on our part as individuals

Social Cohesion comes from WITHIN us not eternally (immigrants) . Even without immigration human nature would find a difference to fight over. History proves this point.

The argument like 'look at Europe' is superficial to the point pointless . One needs to drill down to human nature to find an applicable commonality. i.e. the anti migrant comes about because of fear of change, loss of MY perceived privileges etc.

50/60 years ago Argentina, was seen as an upcoming 1st world nation, The average Standard of living in Egypt was considerably better than today. The first got tangled up in power abuses etc. Egypt, political incompetence power politics (elite) and manipulation by external nations. Given this and a burgeoning population, a plummeting of standard of living a western propped up dictatorship, unemployment, lack of opportunity....The malcontents created a social philosophy based on extreme interpretations of the Islam (Muslim Brotherhood) a devotee to this extremism is Osama.
MY POINT IS IF WE IGNORE OTHER'S PROBLEMS SOONER OR LATER THEY WILL COME BACK AND BITE US.

Common sense tells us as Fractelle says we're not a fortress, a planet not effected by others. If in the future the starving or displaced Billions decide to partake of our 'Nirvana' then there will be precious little we can do to stop them.

Surely then enlightened self interest tells us to give the teeming masses a reason to stay home (usually their preferred choice anyway only our arrogance/paranoia makes us think otherwise).

If that means we sacrifice a little (of our excesses)to do so the end result is far better for all. i.e. control our excesses including arguing thinking in extremes.

The relevant question is then HOW? Collectively we may find the answers.

Clearly, we need to bring back the "White Australia Policy", of which Banjo's namesake was such a fervent supporter.

I think this debate has degenerated into the usual stereotyped viewpoints and avoids the very white elephant in the room - intolerance which is what I thought this topic was about.

Discussions about how we deal with intolerance are not a precursor to bringing back the White Australia Policy - I am not sure how that big jump was made.

Intolerance is a major issue not only reserved for some migrant groups as some might indicate, but by Australians whose families have been here for many generations. This is why discussions in relation to a Bill or Rights have become more popular of late - if intolerance did not exist I doubt the issue would have been raised in the public arena.

I am the product of immigrants to this country - I am not sure how some of you have made the interpretation that I am against mixing the cultures!

I tend to agree with Fractelle that the problem is global. My own view is closer to Ludwig's in regards to sustainable populations and it has nothing to do with multi-culturalism.

The truth is 'intolerance' is worse in some countries than in others. I have travelled in areas where women have to be careful in how the dress and how they consort in public - very different to the freedoms we take for granted in Australia. We can pretend it isn't so but where does that get us?

No-one has really come up with a solution - how do we deal with intolerance? Is legislation enough?

If we make this a blinkered culture versus culture debate then the issue is already dead in the water and we get stuck with semantics instead of solutions.

"No-one has really come up with a solution - how do we deal with intolerance? Is legislation enough?"

Pelican,

The forces shaping the world are so complex that there is no silver bullet solution that can be implemented. I agree with examinator that curbing our own country's excesses and gifting the surplus to other countries so they can live more fulfilling lives will be the eventual solution (of course you've got to get your timing right for all the targeted initiatives this strategy entails because, for example, if you just give your assets to your competitors, they will use it against you. Also, if you give aid to a country that isn't mature enough to use it properly, it will be squandered).

"I am the product of immigrants to this country - I am not sure how some of you have made the interpretation that I am against mixing the cultures!"

I'm not convinced about the rightness of "mixing the cultures". I personally believe in giving opportunities to people they wouldn't have had otherwise (which migration does), but often the "mixing the cultures" bit has to be diluting everyone's culture as different people rub up against each other, cause friction and thereby force everyone to own less of their culture so as not to cause the friction in future. This is always going to be at least a latent problem as long as we live in a multicultural society. That's another good reason for giving assistance to developing countries so that the people born there there do not have to migrate overseas in the first place.

pelican: << ...the very white elephant in the room >>

What an apposite mixing of metaphors!

Although Banjo's is a more honest than usual plea for a return to more ethnically discriminatory policies, the 'elephant in the room' with most of these debates about immigration is usually a thinly veiled appeal to the 'good old days' when Australia was supposedly monocultural, and its population predominantly 'white'.

One of the reasons that sensible population policies are so hard to debate in this country is that they inevitably attract the support of the White Australia mob - or vice versa, as in this thread. Little wonder political parties avoid such debates like the plague.

It's almost laughable when the closet bigots claim to have our 'cultural harmony' (i.e. homogeneity) at heart when they assert that Australians who don't share their Anglo heritage are somehow collectively 'intolerant'.

Individuals are intolerant, cultures aren't.

By all means exclude 'intolerant' individuals - indeed, I think we should deport and/or banish them, even if they happen to be born here. However, you'd need to work out some objective mechanism for identifying the blighters.

Pelican,
I expected personal attacks because some like CJM cannot debate an issue and cannot come up with any solutions to a problem. Some like Ginz and pericles think that anyone that raises issues about immigration is attacking muslims. Others like to keep their heads buried in the sand and deny there is a problem with ethnic violence and contempt for our society.

Antonios,
Firstly, I do not have any dislike for immigrants per say. The only ones I am concerned about are those that abuse our standards and are contemptous of the opportunities they get from being here. Of course the majority integrate and do their best to make a good and successfull life here. But that does not mean that we should totally excuse the behavour of those that do not.

You say we should give them time, and more time if necessary. OK that is fair and we do. But how much time do you think is appropriate?

We have been educating those that carry out FGM for at least 14 years and the incidence is rising. Some of those that endured FGM here are now having it done to their own daughters. We have some Croats and Serbs that are 2nd and 3rd generation and still they have cultural hatreds and fight at sporting events. Some resulting in shooting and vehicles destroyed. Some Lebanese muslims are also 2nd and 3rd generation and have nothing but contempt for our society.

So Antonios how much time is needed and what alien cultural things should we accept and do you see any that we should completely reject?

Continued:-

Continued

examinator,
You say if we ignore others problems they will come back to bite us.

I say, IF WE IGNORE THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE HERE, THEY WILL COME BACK TO BITE US.

That is what you are advocating, for us to ignore the issue. Are you happy to see the Tamils invade a home and beat and pour acid over others because of cultural hatred. Does it occur to you that the victims may be citizens and need protecting from such attacks. Does not this concer you? Does it not concern you that Little Aussie girls are being mutilated and there are forced marriages here. Do you condone the holding of cockfights?

I notice that while you are critical of my offered solutions to mitigate the problems you do not offer any other course of action.

You say I am simply looking to blame someone. Yes I blame our weak kneed politicians for allowing the situation to develope and not enforcing the laws we have. The only thing I am fearfull about is how we leave our community for our kids and their kids

CJ,
I agree contrary to some I am a realist 'the good old days' had just as much community disquiet only the barriers change names. People are indeed the problem. the "White Australia Brigade" and their ilk the exclusionists on the other side are just as guilty.
We need practical objective thinking.

Rob P
As usual you have raised an interesting twist the sending the saved excess to others didn't occur to me as such although it's worthy of deeper thought I'm going to ponder it. Also your warnings were appropriate and I almost agree with them all. The one that sticks is the possible (I assume financial) competitor quip. That is another issue entirely requiring different solution. Off the cuff I wonder if we shouldn't re-evaluate/modify our way of practicing Capitalism.

I was thinking that the Western world with 20% of the population uses a disproportion of resources WE are bleeding/consuming the world/planet..
Does development have to mean destruction/pollution or Capitalism have to mean crowding specific market places? etc. More in syc Ludwig (I think) with the Nth American Indian concept 'walk gently on the surface and take only what you need' (leave breeding stocks be more cautious of our life support system i.e. 'natures balance')
Do we really need another mine that will produce then send the price down etc. Consider the other uses of the capital.
This is no airy fairy notion it is simply a different direction of possible thought.
Lastly I have no intention of telling anyone who to marry.
And who said that any one culture is better than another. We can learn from them all and grow i.e. The Mayan culture is interesting but do we really want their dark side? Look at the Celtish culture hmm babies for the wolves and human sacrifice I know I don't want that.
Current cultures which one? which version? e.g. from which time and context.

Folks Change is inevitable. Evolution demands adaptability so why fight it.Choose the best and adapt.

Whoops...yes CJ you are right it was a bit of a mixing of metaphors to say the least! Ha ha just shows need to engage brain while typing very fast.

I agree that it is individuals that are intolerant. But that is the point how do we reduce intolerance? You cannot eradicate it entirely just as one can't eradicate vanity, prejudice, pride or greed. Governments can only legislate against discrimination but this only serves a purpose when an issue is taken to Court.

It does not help women wearing the hajib being abused walking down the street nor a woman who might be more scantily clad being abused walking down the street - the other side of the coin in the same scenario. Two very different sets of prejudice.

I don't know the answer. Screening at the point of emigration/immigration is futile. What do you ask a prospective immigrant? Will you agree to abide by the laws of Australia and respect the rights of those who are different without fear or favour? Hardly going to get a No answer to that one.

These things are not easily controlled merely through legislation or rules but through generational change, education and evolving tolerance. Sometimes it may even take criminal prosecution for hate crimes.

The only thing I do know from experience is if you disenfranchise those who come here you only increase the tension and highlight the differences.

It has to be recognised that there is prejudice and discrimination on both sides of this debate - it is like the alcoholic admitting he has a problem. You cannot have an honest debate about immigration if the problems as well as the advantages are not discussed but hidden in the closet in the hope that noone will notice.

I for one would not be here now if Australia had not opened it's doors to immigrants. My father worked hard to improve his English which was very poor when he arrived and now most would not know except for a slight accent.

Fractelle,

“As for screening immigrants for 'quality' how does one do that?”

I don’t think we can effectively manage it. So if we can’t do it on an individual basis, then perhaps we should do it on a nationality/religion/ethnicity basis or a basis that people from either side of current conflicts (and old simmering discontents) be rejected.

That’d be a prickly undertaking. And it would be unfair to many good people who would fall into those broad categories.

At the risk of repeating myself too much, the answer as it concerns new arrivals is simple – quickly wind our immigration program down to net zero. Then we wouldn’t have to worry about the aforementioned dilemmas, or at least to a very much lesser extent.

“I am for a sustainable population - but this includes the world not just Australia.”

Most definitely. But we’ve got to get our own house into order. We don’t have to do this before we have a major part to play in global sustainability, but we surely have to get ourselves onto the right track as a fundamental part of any contribution to a global effort.

“We need to work towards peace and assist the poorest countries, this would reduce a lot of the hatred which feeds into the plans of extremists.”

Yes but we’ve got to make sure that our own society will remain healthy or else we won’t be able too contribute much at all. The best contribution we can make would be to greatly boost our international aid, directed at the causes of refugee-generation. We could double our refugee intake as part of this global effort.

“Australia is not an Island Fortress”

And we don’t want it to become one. We can have a healthy immigration / emigration program and input into international refugee / quality of life / sustainability issues, and we can get ourselves onto the right path towards environmental and resource sustainability and the maintenance of a healthy society. But we’ve got to get ourselves off of Rudd’s insane maximised population growth path soon if we are to do this.

Jewely,
Can you offer any explaination as to why the Lebanese muslims are so different here to what you encountered in the Middle East.

From what you say, you went out of your way to conform with the standards of the country you were in. You say you had no problems there because of this. Is it not therefore reasonable that we should expect those coming here to respect to our standards and laws or we do not allow them to come.

Both yourself and Fractelle question as to how the screening would be done. The screening would not be on an individual basis but decission made on a cultural or group basis and this made known to the applicant when visa assesment is made. If a person was of a group that was on the 'list' a visa would not be approved.

Ludwig says this would be unfair to some, but we constantly live with laws and rules that are unfair to some. The points system for taking away drivers licences is an example. Inconvienence for a city person but really unfair to a rural person that has no public transport available. We live with that, and if means a more tolerant and cohesive community then I do not mind being a bit hard on prospective immigrants.

In relation to the Tamils that were the essence of the police media release, I do not have to know how they differ from other Sri Lankans. It could be cultural, religion, political,hair or eyes or skin colour. My only concern is with their actions, nothing more. If there are any similar occurances, I certainly would advocate placing Tamils on the 'list' for visa refusal.

“Can you offer any explanation as to why the Lebanese Muslims are so different here to what you encountered in the Middle East?”

Banjo honey, to tell the truth that day at the American compound the reason I refused to remove my abya (black robe) was because that morning I woke up a bit rushed and only had underwear on underneath.

But the rest of the time, I understood a certain respect for the culture, the history, right or wrong. I walked on blood stained paving stones to my favorite market because someone was beheaded there days before. Right or wrong, give a toss.

You ready for this? I dread saying it but well… I am unlearned but I am honest…

Australia does not have a respectable culture in place, no rules in place. Nothing is strict, nothing to respect. Please don’t shoot me but Oi Oi Oi – you nicked that from the English, they always say Oi. What were you thinking?

You have nothing to respect. Cruise back in to the NRL thread, no shock no horror, no firm ground on which to stand so let’s question the chick. Aussies take no stand beyond the shrimp on the barbq and the beer. There is no culture here. What would another culture respect here? I am Kiwi, no culture comes closer and we find nothing to respect or follow here.

"Both yourself and Fractelle question as to how the screening would be done. The screening would not be on an individual basis but decission made on a cultural or group basis and this made known to the applicant when visa assesment is made. If a person was of a group that was on the 'list' a visa would not be approved."

I did not... never mentioned "screening" in my life. I like the whole “no boarders” concept. People must migrate to survive. How dare you stop people moving at will on this planet. Oh well you didn’t but this is my thought.

The thread here is threadbare but it does point up a problem.
Most people are fed up with the intolerance that the moslem community
demonstrates. I presume not all moslems have that intolerance but their
leaders demonstrate it and the majority just stand by in mute silence.

To make matters worse Melbourne and Sydney are full and further
immigrants are not welcome. We cannot allow our cities to become
larger as they will be unmanageable in a serious energy decline to say
nothing about water.
I would be happy to see a repatriation scheme implemented.

I think we should take note of Sri Lanker,
The Tamils migrated from Tamil Nardu in India and when their numbers
became large enough they wanted to saw off a third of the country
for themselves, and were then surprised when the Celonese objected !

Ludwig

We can't just suddenly turn our backs on the world while "cleaning up our own back yard".

Basically, we can walk and chew gum at the same time, as with introducing sustainable industries we remain reliant on polluting unsustainable ones, so we can look at our immigration policies. For example, we can aim for "replacement intake" as someone suggested previously (sorry can't remember who).

As for the current Breeding Program AKA the Baby Bonus, well that has been in force for ten years (approximately) - its another piece of middle class welfare introduced by the previous regime, that has stuck around. A bit of John Lennon "Imagine if the BB had been put into education instead of babies". Sigh. Or even assisting children already born but who face terrible issues such as domestic violence, sexual abuse etc. Those horrors happen here in this Australia, the one we are trying to protect from all the "bad people". As for the way other cultures treat women, well a couple of threads here on OLO suggest that women are still not quite equal right here.

Banjo, could you please provide a list of those countries from which you would NOT approve immigration and quantifiable reasons why.

Finally, Jewely you are indeed a scholar from your travels, what we call Australian culture is simply a melting pot of many other cultures beginning with Aboriginal; a culture BTW, that becomes more viable as it is vibrant with each new immigration intake. I don't want a return to the blandsville of the 50's.

Jewely
I would have to disagree. Having travelled a bit in my life I believe there is much to respect in Australian culture. Yes we have the thuggery of the footy, the booze, binge drinking and issues with gender politics. I think you will find the machismo culture in the Middle East a lot more heightened than here in Australia.

There are negatives in all cultures. However the things I love about Australia is the fact that we do come together in the face of adversity such as in the recent natural disasters, we believe in freedom of speech and the right for people to make decisions for themselves as long as they do not harm others. We have a sense of humour, we don't take ourselves too seriously and we live in a country that values the welfare of the most vulnerable. Yes it could be improved but at least we are pointing towards the right direction.

I cannot believe that you could not find one thing negative about culture in the Middle East. Personally I would find it disconcerting to walk over blood on the cobblestones knowing that someone was beheaded. Yes you are living in another country and you have to respect their laws but what about living in Australia. Should our laws also be respected?

Australians do have a moral code. The code values freedom of the individual more than the right to tell someone how they should live their lives, that they will be stoned for infidelity or worse. Or raped because they are not wearing the right sort of clothing.

People should not move to other countries merely to find something they can follow or respect - the only place that comes from is from within. Are we all tending to see the negatives and forget about the positives within our own country. Should we one day lose these democractic freedoms we might come to respect them a little more.

Thank you Pelican and Fractelle for not shooting me. I was a little worried after I posted that message.

Pelican I should have added that I prefer Australia to NZ, actually I prefer it to everywhere else. Soon as I work out how to do it I will try again with the citizen application.

I am learning here just what you all do think of your laws and your government. And I appreciate the time some have taken to explain more to me.

Yes everywhere does have its own culture but I feel Aussie does not have a firm one. I think it is maybe because it is young. NZ does grab a lot of its identity from the Maori culture so maybe also young but quite firm in what it is and who the people are? Nuts mostly but there ya go.

Yes Middle East absolutely has a macho culture, what I didn’t clarify was that I was not arguing whether it was good or bad but that it is very clear as to what its identity is.

Am I making a little more sense?

Fractelle, when I moved here and found out about this baby bonus thing I was amazed, never heard anything so stupid in my life but realised straight away that my fostering services would be desperately required in a country that does this. Yeah - high five Oz.

This is the beginning of a nation… wish I could be around in 500 years to see which path it ends up on.

Jewely

One of the things I have always admired about NZ, is the influence of the Maori culture right through New Zealand. I know there are problems but the Maori POV seems to be given the respect that the Australian Aboriginals do not. Sometimes there is a break through, but mostly their culture is on the fringes.

Yes, we all know that macho-culture countries place women as secondary citizens. We also see evidence of a similar macho influence here, it is just more covert. Our male sports-people receive far more attention than female, ditto the replay of sports events - women's sport, while starting to gain some recognition, is still marginalised. I don't think I will ever see a group of scantily clad male cheer leaders any time soon and what is it with racing car drivers and those champagne bottles?

When we take in people from the macho type countries we expect them to treat everyone as equals, but that is difficult when most of our leaders, mentors and role-models are predominantly male. If we want people to adopt the Australian way of life then we should be leading by example.

Hey Fractelle, I want to share a theory about the Maoris and why the Pakehas do get on with them pretty well, Okay – I am on very shakey ground and making every attempt to not offend while I put my own little theory on race relations out there.

Whitey found the Maoris attractive; made assimilation overall much more pleasant. I don’t even know if there are any full blooded ones left because we liked them so much.

I think what made it even easier was that they were fully ready to embrace a culture that had guns which made the killing of a neighboring tribe a lot swifter. Pakehas lucked out with NZ. Mind you, white kiwis are still paying for the whole Treaty thing – don’t know if many indigenous races did that when they spotted ships off their coasts.

My son can speak Maori; most Kiwi kids know quite a few words of the language and a lot about the culture. And I wouldn’t claim that now and again smelly stuff didn’t hit the fan as NZ found its feet.

I would say Kiwi’s don’t feel the shame that the Aussie should but don’t seem to…?

I haven’t put a children right through school here... do the aboriginals have clubs at the primary schools and stuff?

Jewely

A white Australian can live their entire lives without even speaking to an Aboriginal. The Northern Territory has the greatest populations - I simply do not know if there are clubs in schools or not. The majority are marginalised into areas of land that was supposedly worthless - but if later found to have reserves of uranium or valuable minerals, just watch how Aboriginals receive attention then...http://www.dreamtime.net.au/indigenous/land.cfm

It is disgraceful. Also the same people who argue against immigration are often (not all Ludwig) the same who claim the Aboriginals have only themselves to blame for being treated as second class citizens.

"A white Australian can live their entire lives without even speaking to an Aboriginal."

Okay that really shocked me. I do know if a foster child is an aboriginal it does change things compared to other kids. But yeah my knowledge of their culture is severly limited although I did go learn up on their belief system the other day. Wore me out wrapping my head round some of it but really interesting.

"It is disgraceful. Also the same people who argue against immigration are often (not all Ludwig) the same who claim the Aboriginals have only themselves to blame for being treated as second class citizens."

This is like a dicussion I was having on another site with a white women (well she said she was), we agreed to stop and wait until we had an aboriginal to talk to otherwise we are doing what has always been done to them.

Course none turned up so that seems to be the end of that. Do we have some here?

Jewely
I observed similar when I was in New Zealand, that the Maori culture was very much part of the fabric of NZ life. Even municipal buildings had Maori language as well as English name plaques featured. I thought this was wonderful and it is a shame we don't include more of Australia's indigenous culture within its daily life. The difference is, I guess, that Aboriginal Australians number very few compared to total population.

NZ and Australia are both inclusive in their immigration policies. To answer Banjo's question, I think the only way to protect the civil liberties and freedoms we enjoy here is to enshrine those values in law - which is what we have pretty much done.

Religious freedoms should mean religious freedom as long as the various religious groups adhere to the law within a democracy. I cannot see a problem. It is also vital that Australian immigration officials ensure that those wishing to come here do understand Australian law and what it might mean for some.

I think some of the intolerance we see in Australia is borne of inexperience, as Jewely said we are a very young country predominantly influenced by Anglo-Irish culture but with immigration we can see many more positive influences.

Perhaps it is about taking the best of what all cultures have to offer. Multiculturalism certainly does dilute culture but is that a bad thing? I must admit to a sense of loss when I have travelled and seen how American culture has influenced many in Asia and Europe but maybe in the long run we will be better off when we are less 'different' so maybe some dilution is necessary to bring us all together.

I am thinking a bit out loud here and mulling over ideas. Certainly there are many things to think about including what values we think important.

Culture is just another means by which people create their identity.
Cultures comprises of sub cultures. An example of this is the footy sub-culture. There are many variations on a theme or sub/sub-cultures i.e. Collingwood V Melbourne supporters and the level of the individual's identification with either team determines their one-eyedness (chauvinism, the real meaning).
It's a means of both self-identity and belonging to a larger group.

The same could be said for rusted on Labor supporters and limpid Liberal supporters.(or Loony left V Recalcitrant Right etc. Both extremes)
Each subculture has its own rules and Dogma.. One could say that gender perspectives are sub cultures albeit consequential.

The next step of analysis is then defining the 'unique' and 'universally' (every or even one has it) features of a culture/nationalism. Clearly meaningless generalities (one size fits no one) because they are so superficial/trivial. What is important is the COMBINATIONS of attributes and which aren't linear.

People are comprised of an amalgam of these of sub cultures under a Uber Culture(s) i.e. Nationality. This therefore explains why defining a national culture objectively is so difficult.

In this concept 'nationalism is the last resort of scoundrels.' as mechanism on which many build selfish power structures.

What bothers me is this talk that implies MY combination is better than anyone else's.
People are people who/where ever they basically and want similar things.

Tragically in conflict situations like 'debates' on sites like OLO participants tend to follow the line of abject chauvinism to various cultural/sub-cultural dogma to the exclusion of reason and objectivity. This in turn tends to result in 'so the absence of my extreme automatically means the other (extreme)'arguments. Neither side wins and the big loser are EVERYONE.

The corollaries this explain the irrational nature of gender/political/religious debates. The more 'dogmatic' tend to see objective analysis as critical of their sub cultural dogma and therefore of their personal identity. Discrimination is therefore denial of individual's identity (meaning)

Jewely,
Sorry I incorrectly said you asked about screening of immigrants. Looking back, it was Pelican and Fractelle that questioned that aspect. I think you are taking a rather shallow view of our cukture and I cannot say more than what Fractelle said, without going into much detail. But you will see that our system of Governance, justice and democracy/freedom is based on the British system, as is NZ. while that is not perfect by any means, it is far better than what others have in many countries.

Fractelle,
There are only a few groups that I would place on a list to refuse visas to, and that is not on a specific country or religious/cultural basis.

First up would be those groups that carry out FGM on little girls here. I cannot think of a worse cultural practice and no Aussie girl should endure that. There are only a few of these groups and the health and welfare authorities know who they are. Education has failed to stop this practice.

Next would be those group/s that practice forced marriages. Arranged marriages, with consent, is one thing but forced marriages is not acceptable.

Croats and Serbs have a history of violent clashes and that type of hatred is unacceptable.

Lebanese muslims do not get on with any other groups as far as i can see, not even other muslims and because of their anti-social behaviour and contempt for our laws and society.

The are some groups that continually carry on with holding cockfights in defiance of our laws.

There may be other groups that could make the list, but that will do for starters.

There are also some groups that could bear watching regarding their actions, the Tamils for example, by their recent day of violence. I have heard reports of groups in Melbourne that may well be responsible for racial violence but do not have anything confirmed.

Fractelle

“We can't just suddenly turn our backs on the world while ‘cleaning up our own back yard’.”

Of course we can’t. You seem to think that I’ve said that we can. Perhaps you have misinterpreted my last post.

“For example, we can aim for ‘replacement intake’ as someone suggested previously (sorry can't remember who).”

Um, yeayus… that’d be me, repeated about 2 million times so far on this forum…like a broken record, as some kind poster said recently! ( :> |

" ‘Imagine if the BB had been put into education instead of babies. Sigh."

Sigh indeed! I’ll repeat something else that I’ve said half a zillion times before – the baby bonus has got to be the most deplorable policy in the history of Australian politics!!

My wrap-up:

Australia has a CULTURE. Yes we do! One of live and let live, fair go for all, and it's a pretty good one to be living in - if you value personal freedom, prosperity, general peace and safety. Not perfect, but if you've experienced other cultures where peace, prosperity and tolerance aren't such a part of the landscape, you understand why most Aussies still call Australia HOME.

If you come to live here for whatever reason as a potential citizen, it behoves you to adopt these values. If that is not to your liking, clashes with the 'culture' or whatever you bring with you - then @#$% off back to wherever you came from.

Australia has LAWS. Not all perfect, in fact some are pretty stupid. Nevertheless if you come here it behoves you to understand our laws and abide by them. If your traditions, religious beliefs, cultural practices, whatever, take precedence over Australian law - then @#$% off back to wherever you came from or find another place that will tolerate your crap.

If an Australian travels to/takes up residence in another country - these are terms and conditions that we must accept. Why should we demand anything less from visitors or migrants?

I know nothing about screening processes for migration -nor 'induction' processes if any exist. I believe that all wannabe residents need very clear instruction before they arrive on what is expected of them. They should be clearly advised of any potential cultural practices from their country that may contravene our laws and that these will not be tolerated in Australia. Penalty - deportation. They should be given insight into Australian lifestyle and except in emergency humanitarian cases, english language education to basic level.

If Australian authorities became very vigilant and closely monitored behaviour of new migrants - say for 5 years during which time they may be required to live or work under certain directions and undergo compulsory education and training, and summarily withdrew residency rights for those committing offences or refusing terms and conditions - there would be little screening required. Problem solved!

“I think you are taking a rather shallow view of our culture and I cannot say more than what Fractelle said, without going into much detail. …and democracy/freedom is based on the British system, as is NZ. while that is not perfect by any means, it is far better than what others have in many countries. ”

Hey Banjo, You are right, all I know is from three years of local teens, DoCS, TV and online. Oh and at 21 I was living and working on a farm in Tenterfield for 6 months.

I think what I am trying to say keeps going sideways. I am not saying whether it is good or bad, worse or better. Just that Australia does not seem to have a firm culture. A collective set of beliefs, purposes, a connection. I don’t think it is the short heritage; I’m not quite sure what it is. I do think a connection to your land is needed and I think in NZ the Pakehas managed to get that from the Maoris.

Fractelle does this make sense to you? Oz being a harsher land with some really nasty bugs and animals, would this keep everyone more separate from a combined connection to something as a people?

“What bothers me is this talk that implies MY combination is better than anyone else's.People are people who/where ever they basically and want similar things.“

Examinator didn’t you just explain about sub-cultures? So any talk of “MY” would come from that? We have to like our own things or we’d go mental yeah? Do they want similar or is a want a choice made because of where you come from and what belief systems are in place around you? The ethics or morals you are taught within your sub-culture?

“Multiculturalism certainly does dilute culture but is that a bad thing? …but maybe in the long run we will be better off when we are less 'different' so maybe some dilution is necessary to bring us all together.”

This makes sense, think out loud lots Pelican. It will take awhile though. 350.

When will our leaders realise that there are limits to Australia’s population, or will they persist with the delusion that in this country there is a massive treasure trove of boundless resources waiting to be unlocked by an endless number of people who can exploit them without ecological consequences?

Many of our migrants are from densely populated countries which correlate with high pollution and political unrest and I see Australia going the same way if we don’t place a moratorium on the current immigration programme. A moratorium is easily reversed if it doesn’t succeed.

And what is it with migrants who continue to breed like rabbits? My lovely Afghani/Muslim friend gave birth to her sixth child three months ago. She thinks she’s forty six years old, however given the dire circumstances of her background she is uncertain about her age.

While we can persuse reams of papers published on behalf of the UN and similar bodies about population explosions, populations in the third world continue to increase, hence, I believe, a very valid reason for an increase in refugees. At least China has endeavoured to address the chronic population dilemma in their country but it appears that India has not and the forecasts show they will have the highest population by 2050:

1. India - 1,628,000,000 (1.628 billion)
2. China - 1,437,000,000 (1.437 billion)
3. United States - 420,000,000 (420 million)
4. Nigeria - 299,000,000
5. Pakistan - 295,000,000
6. Indonesia - 285,000,000
7. Brazil - 260,000,000
8. Bangladesh - 231,000,000
9. Democratic Republic of Congo - 183,000,000
10. Ethiopia - 145,000,000

contd..……..

contd....

We in a first world country who have failed to train enough of our young have failed to look at the ethics of stealing skilled migrants from third world nations - nations that spend money on educating their young and then have them snapped up by first world nations.

A study, carried out by the Centre for Global Development in Washington, looked at census records collected between 1999 and 2001.

The report suggested the loss of doctors often went hand-in-hand with civil strife, political instability and economic stagnation. It examined nine receiving countries: The UK, the US, France, Canada, Australia, Portugal, Spain, Belgium and South Africa.

The number of African doctors abroad in 2008 revealed:

Mozambique - 75%
Angola - 70%
Ghana - 56%
Kenya - 51%
Rwanda - 43%
Sudan - 13%

The dilution of Australia’s Anglo/Irish culture occurred many decades ago and during the second half of the nineteenth century, Afghani, Pakistani and Turkish camel handlers played an important part in opening up the continent's interior, facilitating the construction of telegraph and railway lines.

At various times in the 1950s and 1960s, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Italy, Greece, Turkey and Yugoslavia were important migrant source countries.

There were also significant intakes of Hungarian and Czech refugees following unrest in those countries in 1956 and 1968 respectively.

Migrants have also settled here from Indochina after the end of the Vietnam war and again from Poland after martial law was declared in December 1981.

All these nationalities have contributed immensely to Australia’s prosperity and have helped build this country and many of my buddies have married "itches" and "Ities" and lived happily ever after.

As a result, we are already a league of nations and all the better for it, however, cultural disharmony, particularly religious disharmony and demands, seem now to be the cause of most countries’ problems taking immigrants. In addition, bringing in more people, whilst our capacity to provide for our own is dwindling I believe is not an indication of rational thought. Time I think to put the skids on immigration for the time being.

Jewely

I have been discussing the influence of geography on a culture with a Dutch friend of mine.

The Netherlands has one of the most cooperative cultures in Europe. They had to, in claiming land back from the sea one inland farm pumped water into another and so on until the water reached the ocean. Often described as "socialist" the taxes collected by the government goes into permanent housing, free education, health care and many other services that are not always government owned. It is a mixture of NGO's and even private services.

I wonder if, in New Zealand, the size of the nation also mattered. Maoris are right there, in your face, not isolated 100's of K's away like Aboriginals. The new colonists had to deal with the locals - also New Zealand was never declared "Terra Nullius" as was Australia - even though it was inhabited. Aboriginals were marginalised from the start.

This is just "top of head" thinking, but I definitely think that landscape has a great deal of influence. Then there's religion, white supremacy attitudes and so on.

However, the simple fact is people can get along. It is always the small percentage who cause all the problems - whether they be politicians or local louts. Most people want to get along, but unfortunately the majority can be manipulated - as they were by Howard with his harmful detention centres. It took a great deal of covert effort for the truth to emerge about children locked up for years while being "processed".

Australia can take in its share of refugees, just like other western nations do. At the same time we can work on policies that suit our country such as how much population is sustainable.

“I wonder if, in New Zealand, the size of the nation also mattered. Maoris are right there, in your face, not isolated 100's of K's away like Aboriginals. The new colonists had to deal with the locals - also New Zealand was never declared "Terra Nullius" as was Australia - even though it was inhabited. Aboriginals were marginalised from the start.”

Fractelle: What is Terra Nullius? I googled it but had some problems with it. You mean a lot of Aussie land isn’t owned?

Aboriginals were nicer than Maoris, being nice is always going to be a disadvantage no matter what Gandhi said about it.

My experience with Maoris as with most things is actually taking their kids off them, but the place in Wellington where I was the longest the local Maoris’ would request I had their kids rather than letting them go to other Maoris’.

Freaky but where I was many tribes had come from other places to work at local Dunlop and General Motors and they would rather a Pakeha take their children than a Maori from another tribe. Yes I just wonder about the earth taking other people’s children and teaching them to say fish and chips funny.

I can understand a country helping each other because they are going down the plughole though.

Protagoras:”As a result, we are already a league of nations and all the better for it, however, cultural disharmony, particularly religious disharmony and demands, seem now to be the cause of most countries’ problems taking immigrants. In addition, bringing in more people, whilst our capacity to provide for our own is dwindling I believe is not an indication of rational thought. Time I think to put the skids on immigration for the time being.”

Ha! I made it before you put the skids on! But I would also tell Australians not to leave; especially not the Lebanese who have been fully corrupted by living here.

No one in/no one out with great big Do Not Disturb Signs on all Ports of Oz.

Oh… did you want it to work both ways?

Jewely,
Don't worry It will take quite a while before there is a stop to immigration, or even a reduction to Zero Nett. Plenty of time for you to get your kin here if you want.

I would like to know how we corrupted the Lebanese. We do not seem to have any problems with the non-muslim Lebanese, nor a great deal of problems with muslims of other nationalities. What did we do to make the Lebs so contemptuous to our society?

Jewlry

Back in the “dinosaur” era, I knew a couple of Lebanese families. Lebanese people, from many faiths, have been settling in Australia since the late nineteenth century though perhaps they were fairly inconspicuous in numbers, however, I find your “corrupted” bit very strange since I believe that most Lebanese, within a couple of generations, have almost completely assimilated which no doubt has made them even more inconspicuous.

A point I was endeavouring to make is the issue of sustainability. There is little point in people coming here if everyone goes down the tube together because of limited resources.

An excerpt, written by Dr John Coulter in the Sustainable Population Australian newsletter (and from many other sources) may reflect my own views better:

“Australia presently feeds about 60 million people, one third in Australia and two thirds in other countries. It does this unsustainably, using vast energy subsidies from fossil fuels, with massive soil loss to erosion and salinisation and with pollution of the majority of its rivers and water bodies. Some scientists, surveying this situation and recognising the inadequate resources being applied to reversal and remediation have suggested that in 25 years Australia may not have enough food to feed itself.”

One article mentioned that a proportion of 'boat people' are well-to-do young men who have the hard cash to arrive on our shores. Meanwhile a much higher proportion of those in refugee camps around the world are poor women and children who languish in these dreadful camps for years. What are we doing about them?

I also believe that developed countries should (in a non-coercive manner) ask developing countries to take responsibility for their ever increasing populations and that we drastically reduce our migration intake by giving priority to refugees and very substantially increasing our foreign aid directing that aid toward the causes of people becoming refugees.

Frankly, I’m fairly unperturbed about the current religious issue – it will eventually resolve itself, but as you said, you wore the black robe in an Arab country (when in Rome?)and on that note, I shall leave you to ponder.

Hiya Banjo, most of my family are already here, My family moved here when I was 18 and left me flatting in NZ, Kiwi’s are a traitorous lot.

Hi Protagoras, I did wear that black thing in the stupidest climate on earth to wear long black clothing as well.

I get the closing boarders thing for y/our own sakes. Do it, I’ll back you 100%. Maybe the world could do it for two years and see how we all get on.

How to explain to you both how I see the Lebanese… lovely people, my personal favourite Arabs, never heard a bad thing about them until I got here.

But I arrived after some riot and I also think there may be quite a few around where I live. The number of times I have had to tell off local teenagers who look at my neighbours and sneer the word “Leb” is amazing, the poor buggers are Syrian, Catholic ones at that.

You can’t full me with stories of knowing the odd person of this race or another. I live around (what is lower than blue collar?) neighborhood. My kids are older teens so I meet lots of other older teens who have not been taught to reign themselves in. Adult Aussies (all the ones I have met offline) are the most racist people I have ever met.

Two teens just walked in the door, I asked them to describe to me the local Lebs they know:

“they fight with bats and hammers, a-holes, they hate Australians, they call Australians “s#it Aussie cu#ts”, they have rats tails, the ones round here have lived in Oz their whole lives, speak English”

There ya go. Bags not my fault.

Jewely,
Quote Two teens just walked in the door, I asked them to describe to me the local Lebs they know:

“they fight with bats and hammers, a-holes, they hate Australians, they call Australians “s#it Aussie cu#ts”, they have rats tails, the ones round here have lived in Oz their whole lives, speak English”

Unquote. That would seem a fairly typical answer from teens having some experience with lebs. Lebs certainly have a poor reputation. It is to do with rudeness, arrogance, disrespect for others (particularly women) anti-social behaviour and contempt for us and all aspects of our society.

You stated before that we (meaning Aussies) 'fully corrupted' the Lebs

Relating what a few teens said does not explain how we came to corrupt the lebs and I would like you to tell me. Just what is it that made them so hostile toward us. They were treated the same as other Middle Eastern people on arrival and we did take in quite a few when civil war was tearing Lebanon apart. What is perplexing is that we do not experience the same contempt from other Middle Easten people, it appears to be mainly attributed to Lebanese muslims. The hatred seems also to be handed down to next generations.

You also said 'There ya go. Bags not my fault'. I don't know what that is supposed to mean. No one is blaming you for anything. What is not your fault!

Hey Jewely

When the Brits decided that they wanted Australia as a penal colony and to add to the British Commonwealth they used the term "Terra Nullius" which is Latin for "land belonging to no-one". And the rest is history as they say. This is why the current date of Australia Day is so contentious as it was the date of arrival of the first European settlers and therefore, not inclusive of Aboriginal people.

I also agree that Maoris are more war-like than Aboriginals - love the Haka, if there is an Aboriginal war-dance - again I am ignorant. The Aboriginal dances I am familiar with are the ones which tell tales of the Dreamtime. Totally different cultures which lead to different outcomes for the original inhabitants of New Zealand and Australia.

Protagoras - love your posts; very informative and am in total agreement with your point:

"...that developed countries should (in a non-coercive manner) ask developing countries to take responsibility for their ever increasing populations and that we drastically reduce our migration intake by giving priority to refugees and very substantially increasing our foreign aid directing that aid toward the causes of people becoming refugees."

Banjo, when I was a child, the claims you are now making about Lebanese were being made about Greeks and Italians, therefore, I find your argument somewhat lacking in substance. Today Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese are among our most valued immigrants and I anticipate the same for Middle Eastern immigrants.

wobbles,
Without checking on your quoted stats, they sound about right. This really shows the effectiveness of the previous policy. Have a look at the previous year also. The Rudd policy came into being after your stats ended on 30-6-08. Now read article from todays Aus to see what has happened since.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25544176-601,00.html

We have apprehended 749 illegals and the Indonesians have apprehended 900. Over 1500 in total that were attempting to come by boat.

There is no doubt that the lure of permanent residency, after a couple of months paid for holiday on barmy Christmas Island, is the lure and like the Indonesians say we can expect more and more.

There is no alarm, but we simply need to make it far less attractive for the illegals to risk the trip. I applaud the Indonesians for their efforts in prevention

Sorry, Last post on wrong thread.

Fractelle,
The problem now is that the lebanese muslim issues have been going on for a long time. Some are 2nd and 3rd generation and their attitudes are still the same. The groups you mentioned above never showed the arrogance and contempt for our society that the Lebs do.

Similarly, the ongoing hatreds shown by the Serbs and Croats are now shown by 2nd and 3rd generations. Education has failed to stop those carrying out FGM. Some that were mutilated here are now having their daughters mutilated as well.

As I asked Antonios, How much time do we allow some groups to respect our way of life?

Hey Fractelle, There are lots of Haka’s, you ever had one translated? Maoris are scary! Bless them.

So do you think given time all this stuff will go away as the peoples here start moving in a common direction?

Hey Banjo – yeah two similar threads I am getting confused myself.

“As I asked Antonios, How much time do we allow some groups to respect our way of life?”

What is your way of life? I keep asking and I keep getting how bad other countries are. I like Oz, but I’m a pretty tolerant type mummy.

But you know the only time I have been abused and called “Pakeha” in a BAD way was by a white Australian like they thought it was a swear word.

“You stated before that we (meaning Aussies) 'fully corrupted' the Lebs”

Yes and you want to know why I said that… what I keep saying is that I like the Lebs, always have but here they act different and what did you do to them if they are okay everywhere else?

But you do say the Muslim Arabs. Christian Lebs don’t call even themselves Arabs. Maybe there is a clue there.

Banjo

Excellent question from Jewely:

"...what I keep saying is that I like the Lebs, always have but here they act different and what did you do to them if they are okay everywhere else?"

See, it takes two to have a difference of opinion.

Jewely

I have never had a translation of a Haka - all I know is if I was a warrior and a mob of Maoris were facing me off with a Haka, I'd jump back into my canoe and skedaddle quick smart.

Maybe Aboriginal elders could team up with a few Maoris - sort out land rights and equity here in OZ.

Hiya Fractelle,

Didn't the Maoris come over ages ago to give the Aboriginals a hand? There were many comments at the time in NZ about the poor Aussies.

I don't know how they got on but I'm sure the two native races have very different feelings for their lands.

Hey check this one out...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2773496/ka-mate-all-black-haka

Jewelry,
What is our way of life? Well you have been here a while and you have lived in the Middle East, so you must be able to see a big difference in the way we live to that of people in Middle Eastern countries.

Fancy someone in Aus refering to you as a 'pakeha'. I had to look the word up to find it meant a white Kiwi. I would just call you a Kiwi whether you are Maori or not.

Now, it was you that said We (Aussies) had 'fully corrupted' the Lebs and i would really like to know what made you come to that conclusion. If i knew we had corrupted them i would not have to ask.

I know you liked the Lebs in the Middle East and how do you know they are the same everywhere else, except Aus. Your Kids teenage friends told you of their reputation here.

Arabs does not seem to be a term that is used much here. Middle Eastern People usually refer to themselves by their nationality. e.g. Iraqi or Egyptian and so on

"What is our way of life? Well you have been here a while and you have lived in the Middle East... (word limit) to see a big difference in the way we live to that of people in Middle Eastern countries."

I am confusing the two different threads now. What I have noticed (where I am) is no particular way of life... same as NZ except no link to your aboriginals or a particular dominant church etc.

Hey you know what, it might come from me fostering. How your department treats the kids compared to NZ. From what I have seen (again getting a bit scared now and do not want to be shot) the children are not treated as a primary importance.

I suspect you Aussies for all your bluster don't concider yourselves as having a huge amount of worth and I have seen this reflected in your care of the little state wards.

"Fancy someone in Aus refering to you as a 'pakeha'. I had to look the word up to find it meant a white Kiwi. I would just call you a Kiwi whether you are Maori or not."

I called him many things back, none racist, more to do with what he had in his pants. He didn't seem to know that we are Pakehas but in the middle east they would ask if "Kiwi" was a polite term. Maori's perfer being called "Maori" (means "normal" in their langugae).

Hmm... I only hear all Arabs in Oz referred to as "Lebs". Like calling all white people dutch or something I guess. Okay corrupted, nah we are going to go in circles, I keep saying you did it and you keep asking how and then I'll go you tell me and you will say nah you tell me.

I don't know why the Lebs arn't nice here but it certainly has had a personal impact on my children that they arn't and I haven't been in Oz long enough to own that problem beyond telling my lot off if using the wrong race name when abusing them.